BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:53 AM

This is what is likely to happen. Israel will soon sign a peace treaty with the Palestinians to withdraw to the 1967 boarders with Jerusalem as a jointly controlled city. The Palestinians will have an official State. Refugees will be allowed to settle in their state. Terrorism will for the most part be put on hold for just a little while. The next step will be an anti Zionist propaganda campaign and eventually an orchestrated Arab attack planned and executed by the Jihadists to get control of the rest of Israel and end the Israeli state, but unfortunately that will again not succeed, and it'll be back to dismal Palestinian despair.
Until the Arabs can really contemplate an Israeli Jewish Zionist state to exist- they will never have a good future for the Palestinian people.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:16 AM

Good morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:13 AM

Emma B:

If the people you call Palestinian are an ethnic group because of where they live, please show precisely where that is.

For a geographic area to carry a valid name, it must have reasonably well-defined borders. Let's see them.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: goatfell
Date: 21 May 08 - 09:27 AM

Just because you support either factions you're a racist, or believe in free speech you're a racist as well.

there are exstrimes on both sides not just the one side, as there is always three sides to a story your side, their side and the truth.

I jsut don't support terrorists and I don't care what they believe in killing people is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:07 AM

Oasis of Peace - A brief history of the village

'Over thirty years ago, a man named Father Hussar first came to dwell on the land in Israel that would come to be known as an Oasis of Peace, home to a School for Peace and a primary school and to residents committed to living together and respecting one another's language and culture.
Inspired by a phrase in the book of Isaiah, Father Bruno envisioned a manifestation of the Old Testament's prophecy that "My people shall dwell in an oasis of peace" (32:18).
Neve Shalom/Wahat al-Salam/Oasis of Peace was conceived of and nurtured by Father Bruno, a Jew born in Egypt and a convert to Catholicism, who dedicated over 30 years of his life encouraging peaceful coexistence between Jews and Arabs.

Father Bruno believed there were two "rights" in Israel and Palestine: the right of Jews to inhabit the Jewish state created in 1948 and the right of Arabs to maintain their homeland and live as full citizens in Israel.
He envisioned the need for a place that could be a model for peaceful coexistence between Arabs and Jews.
In 1972, he camped without modern conveniences upon a hillside that he leased from the nearby Trappist Latrun Monastery for 25 cents a year for 100 years. In 1978, the first family arrived to join him along with funds to begin construction on infrastructure for water, sewage, and electricity.

Father Bruno later wrote of his idea, "We had in mind a small village composed of inhabitants from different communities in the country. Jews, Christians, and Muslims would live there in peace, each one faithful to his own faith and traditions, while respecting those of the others. Each would find in this diversity a source of personal enrichment."
Placing Jews and Arabs together was only part of a goal that would involve providing "the setting for a school for peace." Father Bruno stated, "For years there have been academies in the various countries where the art of war has been taught. . . [W]e wanted to found a school for peace, for peace too is an art. . . People would come here from all over the country to meet those from whom they were estranged, wanting to break down the barriers of fear, mistrust, ignorance, misunderstanding, preconceived ideas—all things that separate us—and to build bridges of trust, respect, mutual understanding, and, if possible, friendship.

Report of visit by Janet Langhart and William Cohen here

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 21 May 08 - 04:51 AM

Oasis of Peace

(ne-vé shal-om / waah-at i-sal-aam: Hebrew and Arabic for Oasis of Peace [Isaiah 32:18]): A village, jointly established by Jewish and Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel, that is engaged in educational work for peace, equality and understanding between the two peoples.

Neriya Mark is Jewish and Sama Daoud is Arab Muslim.
They are friends that have grown up together in Neve Shalom/ Wahat al Salam, an Arab-Jewish village founded in 1970 in Israel.

Interviwed about their experiences and hopes on BBC Radio 4's ptogramme Midweek this morning.

A village today.....
A country tomorrow?

only equality and understanding can bring about a lasting peace

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 21 May 08 - 02:24 AM

"And it keeps getting deeper and deeper on this thread."

I see it as more of the truth about Palestine /Israel emerging through the above postings. After all the Palestinian people have rarely received fair coverage of their plight from the western media or sympathetic regard from the powers who originally backed the Zionist conquest of the Palestinian homeland.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 10:16 PM

And it keeps getting deeper and deeper on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 06:23 PM

The only solution is the two-state option. Israel has accepted that. Much of the Arab world has accepted that. The Palestinian leadership of Fatah has accepted that. Basically, the sides are so close to achieving the solution that its ridiculous that they haven't been able to get there.

The only thing stopping Israel from doing what is needed for the Palestinians to have their own state is their unwillingness to allow the Palestinians to have their own state. Do you really think that if Israel was honest about accepting that the Palestinians should have their own state, they would still be increasing the size and amount of settlements? Of course they wouldn't. And yet they are increasing the size and amount of settlements, and they are also assisting the settlers in the settlements that the government of Israel itself has declared illegal.

The settlements are a part of an overall strategy of ethnic cleansing along with the other things I mentioned... denial of the Palestinians access to their own water, denial of services to Arab Israelis, denial of building permits for Palestinians, both in occupied Palestine as well as in Israel itself, the choking off of the Palestinian economy through the prevention of movement of goods and people, settler harassment of Palestinians, denial of access to health care through preventing people at road blocks from getting to the hospital, and other things as well.

The ultimate goal is to have all of the Palestinians removed, or coerced into leaving until there are none left.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 20 May 08 - 04:25 PM

I am glad Emma B has referred to Prof Ilan Pappe's book" The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine2.This book ,written by an Israeli,is a devastating account of the ethnic cleansing undergone by the Palestinians as their homeland was taken over by Zionists .
It is an account of the destruction of hundreds of Palestinian villages ,the forced expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and the mass murder of Palestinians as Zionist terror squads moved in with knives, grenades and machine guns to kill and expel.
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 04:09 PM

BTW, welcome back, John.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 04:09 PM

"Canada's longest peacekeeping mission began a few years after the Suez Crisis. In 1959, Cyprus, an island in the Mediterranean, gained its independence from Great Britain. Greek and Turkish communities on the island, however, could not coexist peacefully. By 1963, fighting had broken out between the two groups. When both Greece and Turkey threatened to intervene, the conflict was poised to become an international crisis. Britain hoped to restore peace through the intervention of the UN. Subsequently, UN troops, including a Canadian contingent, were stationed in Cyprus to keep the peace. In the past, Canadian troops had been regarded as essentially "British." However, their presence in Cyprus elicited no objection from either the Turkish or Greek Cypriots, indicating that Canada was regarded as a state whose position was essentially a neutral one. The conflict continued, however, and led to the partitioning of Cyprus into Turkish and Greek republics.


Copyright Canadian War Museum (AC 19900170-004).

Liaison with the Muhktar LdSH(RC), Louroujina, Cyprus, by Dr. Geoffrey George Jamieson.

An officer of Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) facilitates negotiations between two Cypriot leaders. From 1963 until the mid-1990s, Canadians were very active in keeping the peace in Cyprus. Canada still has a small contingent of observers on the island.

On 15 July 1974, Greek army officers serving in the Greek Cypriot National Guard staged a coup d'état against the president of Cyprus, Archbishop Makarios. Their aim was to unite Cyprus with Greece, the goal that was the original cause of the Cypriot civil war. Turkey reacted five days later by launching an amphibious invasion of Cyprus with 40,000 troops. Turkey's stated aim was the protection of the Turkish Cypriot minority. Within 24 hours, the Turkish invasion force had gone beyond its initial objectives, securing the port of Kryenia, their beachhead in the northern part of Cyprus, and extending its territory into the Turkish sector of Nicosia. Their final objective was to be the Nicosia airport on the western end the city. Indian Lieutenant-General Prem Chand, who had also commanded the 1962 UN action against secessionist Katangan gendarmes and mercenaries, led the UN forces in Cyprus. He and his chief of staff, Canada's Colonel Clay Beattie, who was also the commander of the Canadian contingent, decided that to allow the Turks to take the airport would be an unacceptable blow to UN credibility.


   
Elements of the Canadian Airborne Regiment, Canada's UNFICYP (United Nations Peacekeeping Force in Cyprus) contingent at the time, were deployed to the airport, which had been defined as a UN protected zone. An initial attack by the Turks was stopped by Greek Cypriot defensive fire, but, when word of an impending second assault reached the Canadian contingent, it reminded both sides that they had agreed to a ceasefire. The Canadian soldiers also clearly stated that they would defend their positions. The world press could then report a Turkish assault on UN troops. The Turks apparently believed that the Canadian contingent would stand its ground -- they certainly had the means to overcome these troops but chose not to do so. Bravado, credible because of the evident professionalism of Canada's soldiers, won the day. In addition to preventing the Nicosia airport from falling into Turk hands, the action defined a new style of peacekeeping: actively intervening between opposing sides rather than passively occupying ground between them. Actions at the airport and other hot spots throughout Nicosia came at a high cost for Canadian peacekeepers, 2 dead and more than 30 wounded! The same proactive style of peacekeeping, which certainly has its roots in the UN action in Katanga in 1960s, was to be used in Croatia and Bosnia. These operations, however, exacted an even higher price.

United Nations (UN 84573).

Peacekeeping Force, Kato Pyrgos, Cyprus, 15 April 1964.

The United Nations Security Council established the United Nations Peacekeeping Force in Cyprus to help prevent a recurrence of hostilities between Turk and Greek Cypriots. The force was comprised of contingents from Canada, Finland, Ireland, Sweden, and the United Kingdom.

Canada kept an infantry battalion of varying size in Cyprus until the mid-1990s and still maintains a small group of observers there. Virtually every Canadian infantry battalion did at least one Cyprus tour, and most did several. Armoured regiments and at least one artillery regiment also took their turn.

With Suez, Cyprus, and a number of other smaller missions, peacekeeping was established as a central feature of Canadian foreign policy. It continued to be vital both to Canadian diplomacy and military policy right up until the 1980s and 1990s."

Keeping peace there has cost the deaths of about 30 Canadians. FYI.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 May 08 - 04:04 PM

Thank you, irishenglish, I was about to correct that, but you beat me to it. My point remains, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:44 PM

John- it is Cyprus, not Crete, divided between Greece and Turkey.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:40 PM

I have read where many of you here favor a one state solution for Israel and Palestine. This is the panacea that will bring peace and harmony between and among Israelis (Jews) and Arabs (Muslims), to say nothing of the West in general and Islamists.

I believe many of you believe this scenario, but I also believe that some of you present the idea very cynically.

How optimistic should I be that such a one state solution would work?
Let's see: Crete--island still divided after 25 years or more between Greece and Turkey after British leave; Czechoslovakia splits into Czech Republic and Slovakia; Yugoslavia splits into many ethnic countries and then some; Kurds attempting to establish a homeland in parts of Turkey and Iraq, independent of either; and there is a nascent movement to divide Dutch speaking Belgium from French speaking Belgium. I'm sure if I wanted to take the time I'd find several more such examples.

Based upon recent history, I'm not at all confident that a one-state solution on the Mediterranean Coast is a viable option. In fact, I think I have a better chance to be US president (<0.00001%) than a one-state 'Israstine' has of working to the mutual benefit of those populations.

JotSC

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:19 PM

The reality is that Israel will not be accepting a one-state solution any century soon.

The reality is that Israel is not going away any century soon.

The reality is that the Palestinians are not going away any century soon (and they are NOT being ethnically cleansed, despite what CarolC may say again and again and again).

The only solution is the two-state option. Israel has accepted that. Much of the Arab world has accepted that. The Palestinian leadership of Fatah has accepted that. Basically, the sides are so close to achieving the solution that its ridiculous that they haven't been able to get there.

Israel cannot be defeated by the terrorism of Hamas and Islmaic Jihad. All their terrorism does is make a solution impossible and make the day-to-day lives of the Palestinians intolerable.

If Hamas and Islamic Jihad accept the reality of Israel, disarm and STOP their terrorist activities, then there will be a Palestinian state within months.

Anyone who doesn't think so does not know Israelis. The vast majority of Israelis would be very happy to shut down the settler movement in the West Bank like they shut down the settler movement in Sinai and in Gaza.

An end to terrorism means an end to the opressiveness of the anti-terrorism measures enacted by Israel.

Both sides will have to compromise. Both sides know that. The question is, will it happen in the next year or two, or will it take decades?

One column I saw in a Canadian Jewish newspaper recently said that the Palestinians are not the worst enemies faced by the Jews in recent decades. That honor belongs to the Nazis. The column pointed out that Germany is now one of Israel's closest allies and that the German head of governmnet recently spoke to the Knesset in German. The columnist concluded that if Israel, the Jewish state, can be friends with Germany after the Holocaust, then peace with the Palestinians is surely possible.

AND THAT IS ALL I'VE GOT TO SAY ANYMORE.

Peace, I wish you well.

CarolC, I won't hear another word you ever have to say.

Shalom! Saalam! Peace!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 20 May 08 - 02:23 PM

btw ....
'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine' is the title of Professor Ilan Pappés* book which looks at the 'history' hotly disputed here.

A review of the book by Stephen Lendman here

*'In 2007, Pappé left his position as a senior lecturer of Political Science at the University of Haifa......
Pappe said that he found it "increasingly difficult to live in Israel" with his "unwelcome views and convictions'

He is one of the predominant Israeli supporters of the 'One State Solution' where Palestinians and Israelis can live together in equality in one state for two people.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 02:14 PM

Unfortunately, the other parties are not really any better than Likud. Although the Labor party is less open about it, they are just as responsible for increasing and enlarging the settlements as Likud (and Kadima). They all have the same agenda, just different means of accomplishing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 02:10 PM

Ethnic cleansing doesn't have to happen all at once, Ghost of Electricity. It can happen slowly over time. If the ultimate goal is the complete or even near complete removal of a particular population, that is ethnic cleansing. As I have said before, the process in both Israel and in occupied Palestine is ongoing (and relentless). There are many ways to remove a population. One way is to make it impossible for people to live in an area (bulldozing their homes to make room for new settlements to house the population that is replacing the original one, preventing them from putting up any new buildings, separating people from their means of making a living using roads accessible only to the new people, depriving people of access to their own water resources, depriving them of other necessities, like electricity and roads (this in happening in Israel) preventing the flow of goods and people into and out of an area. The methods aren't as quick as running them out at the point of a gun (a tactic that has been used), but the results are the same in the end.

When the Israeli government drives non-Jewish Palestinians out of their homes, destroys them, and then builds new, Jewish-only settlements in their place, and when they use other means of making it impossible for people to remain in an area, they are committing ethnic cleansing, because they are removing a particular group of people from the area and replacing them with different group of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 20 May 08 - 02:05 PM

mea culpa!

.....a major split in 2005 saw Likud leader Ariel Sharon leave to form the new Kadima* party.

* 'Kadima's plan was devised by Sharon but Olmert must carry it out
Kadima was founded on the premise that Israel's long-term survival depends on safeguarding its Jewish majority and preventing Palestinian Arabs becoming the majority at any time in the future.'

BBC report 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 20 May 08 - 01:56 PM

"I similarly will not endorse the actions (in regard of Gaza) of the Likud ruling party in the Knesset until hell freezes over"

EmmaB,

Likud, headed by former-Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, is not the "ruling party in the Knesset."

The party in power is Kadima, a centrist party, headed by current Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 20 May 08 - 01:52 PM

CarolC keeps referring to the "ethnic cleansing" of Palestinians by Israel.

In places where there is ethnic cleansing, the ethnic population in question is either wiped out decreases markedly. For example, think of the Jews from Arab and Moslem countries in the Middle East. Sixty years ago, there were about 1,000,000, Now there are, at best, a few thousand.

However, at the same time, in Israel/Palestine, there were about 1,000,000 Arabs. Now there are well over 5,000,000.

If Israel was attempting "ethnic cleansing," they are surely totally inept at it.

The TRUTH, of course, is that Israel is not ethnic cleansing. All calls for ethnic cleansing by extremist Israelis have been rejected by every Israeli government, right wing and left wing alike.

The cause of peace is not advanced by the constant repetitions of such blood libels as advanced by CarolC.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,JA woman
Date: 20 May 08 - 01:45 PM

The Guest above is me (Jewish/Arab woman) Apologies, I had trouble post the message.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 08 - 01:44 PM

Perhaps we need some music brought in again, to bring peace.

Back during the Israel/Lebanon crisis, there were many Concerts For Peace organised by the young people of Israel, with artists from all over the world taking part. One of those who helped to organise just such a concert was Aliza Hava, a young musician from New York who is doing all she can to promote peace in The Middle East. I'll put links to both her sites, so those who cannot link to Myspace, can also hear her music. There is a wonderful song on there called 'Rise' some of the words from which are below:

Aliza Hava

Also, from Aliza's myspace blog:

The Jerusalem Peacemakers

Aliza's myspace

"...We will learn to sing, not to fight, unless it's for our freedom and rights. We will hold each others hands, try hard to understand. Liberty is our demand. We are one people, one land. One people. One soul." (taken from 'Rise' by Aliza Hava)

The musicians are the ones who will eventually bring peace, for they have no barriers, no political axe to grind, just a strong desire for peace and harmony amongst all people.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:49 PM

From The Middle East Times also....

'Shouldn't Palestinians forgive Israel?'

'For the Palestinians who are prepared to forgive the hope is that the majority of Israelis, out of decency or out of sheer desire for a quiet life, don't want any more war. Realizing that Palestinian forgiveness meant that their national existence was no longer threatened, Israelis would want their government to seize the chance, not to confiscate more Palestinian land, but to consolidate the state of quiet and calmness, and do their best to rescue Palestinians from military occupation and second-rate citizenship.'


'In the first chapter of Amos Oz's novel, "My Michael," the protagonist Hannah recalls her childhood friends, Khalil and Aziz, two Palestinians who in 1948 disappeared along with 800,000 of their people. In the last chapter she imagines her two friends coming back to blow everything up. By then Hannah has descended into madness.

Hannah, like Oz and his generation of Israelis, knows that before the war of 1948 there was another, older and larger society than her own, and that that society was destroyed and its traces erased; the population was forced to leave, villages were razed to the ground and cities, neighborhoods and streets were renamed. She must also know that the destruction of the Palestinian society was necessary for the creation of Israel. Unlike her generation, however, Hannah is willing to admit what she knows; but that's only because she is mad.

Israelis know that, within the ongoing conflict, making this acknowledgement could, as the novel concludes, be an act of madness and a call for self-destruction. For such an acknowledgement endorses the basic and uncompromising Palestinian claims.

Practically every single Palestinian believes that before the Nakba – or "catastrophe" – there was a Palestinian society similar to Arab societies in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt; that if it hadn't been for Jewish migration to Palestine, with the intention and means of creating a Jewish state, Palestine would have progressed into a sovereign Palestinian state.

Were the Israelis to endorse such claims they would have to admit that the creation of the State of Israel has blocked the natural birth of the Palestinian state; they would, therefore, risk facing the call to stand up to their responsibilities and correct the wrong they have done.

But how could they do that without undoing their own nation and agreeing to become citizens of the long delayed Palestinian state? Could the Israelis – as a nation whose ancestors suffered a long history of discrimination, prosecution and genocide – take such a risk without being absolutely mad?

Madness, however, doesn't always lead to the risk of self-destruction. Indeed, some of it could be so benign as to be the only hope.

Let's imagine a Palestinian protagonist, a Palestinian Hannah who could understand the position of the Israelis – that they have no choice but to evade or postpone admitting the embarrassing facts of pre-1948; that at best they could try to skip these facts by supporting a half-baked solution, such as the so-called two-state solution, by which Palestinians are offered a compensatory miniature state.
A Palestinian Hannah would also acknowledge that the damage has been done and attempts to undo Israel could only lead to further damage – and that Palestinians must forgive Israelis.'

Samir el-Youssef is a Palestinian writer and critic

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:33 PM

We've all heard that shit before, "Albert".

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:33 PM

From the Middle East Times


'Hezbollah's network confirms terror goals
By WALID PHARES Published: May 20, 2008
Hezbollah areas in red

A detailed map released by a French Web site citing Lebanese sources shows the main network of communications established by Hezbollah throughout Lebanon. It details the organization's closed circuit telephone system, a network independent from the one operated by the government.

This parallel network was at the heart of the recent flare-up between Prime Minister Fouad Siniora's cabinet and Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah.


The latter accused the government of attempting to seize the network while the Lebanese government stating that no communication network could operate outside the law. Hezbollah's response was that its status as a "resistance" organization justified it running its own "closed communications system." In other words, to behave as a state within the state.


Under the country's constitution the Lebanese government had the right to demand that Hezbollah shuts down its illegal operation. But no sooner was the ministerial decision made public that Hezbollah launched a blitz campaign on the Lebanese government.


Even though the government was not in a position to dismantle Hezbollah's network or prepared for a militarily confrontation, Hezbollah Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah held a press conference, declared war against the government and gave a signal to the coup.


Why would Hezbollah wage such a risky war for a telecommunication system? Is it because of the income generated by the network to sell international phone calls? Less likely. The Iranian foreign aid to the group was upgraded from $300 million to a little less than $1billion a few months ago.


Obviously more revenue is always welcomed by the leaders of the so-called "resistance," but more important is the big picture revealed by the Hezbollah phone map.


Close analysis of the map tells us the following:


The "Red Lines" stretch from southern Beirut along the coast to the Hezbollah exclusive zones in the south. It covers a complex network of bases in the area, cuts through the Jezzine district and connects with the Bekaa Valley all the way up to northern Lebanon. The most important features and dimensions of the Hizbo-net are the following:


1. The net covers large parts of Greater Beirut: This can provide Hezbollah with the ability to organize its forces in Dahiye (southern suburb of Beirut) for assaults against West Beirut, East Beirut and the Druze Mountain in Aley and the Chouf. The closed circuit can mobilize thousands of fighters without interception from Lebanese or international monitoring. It explains how Hezbollah launched its blitzkrieg offensive on Sunni Beirut, the Druze Mountain and was testing Christian Beirut, without real warning to the areas under attack.


2. The coastal cable-line links the Dahiye to the inner land of the Hezb. It serves to move troops and material from the south to the north without major detection. It explains how thousands of Hezbollah forces were moved from as far as Nabatieh and Tyre to Beirut. But it also tells about the capacity of Hezbollah to use it against UNIFIL forces in the future, if needed.


3. The network between the south and the Bekaa indicates a Hezbollah strategy to close the gap to the east.


As I have indicated in many articles and interviews previously, the Lebanese-Syrian borders are all that count to Hezbollah's terror network. As long as these frontiers are open for Iran to supply weapons and logistics via Syria, the state within the state can thrive and grow.


The Lebanese government and the U.N., with European and U.S. backing, should have closed that gap three years ago, but they didn't. Let's leave the blame game to another discussion. Hezbollah was faster than anyone else.


According to this map the Iranian backed militia built an impressive network throughout east Lebanon from the southern fortresses to the closest position to the northern borders with Syria. This means that Hezbollah by now, has covered the entire Bekaa Valley, and thus has beaten the international community to the borders with Syria.


Military and intelligence analysts can understand this development very clearly. Strategically, Hezbollah is in control of these areas as shown by a map B, which I established two years ago.


4. In the mid-Bekaa, the cable route connects the center of the valley to one of the highest peaks in Mount Lebanon and thrusts into the mostly Christian districts of Byblos and Kesrouan. This shows that Hezbollah has already established an axis of penetration inside the Mount Lebanon area, at few kilometers only from the seashore.


5. Map A also shows that Hezbollah positions are connected to the Anti-Lebanon Range and thus to the Syrian hinterland. Militarily there are no Lebanese-Syrian borders to stop the flow of weapons and forces coming from Iran through Syria into Lebanon.


6. The northern tips of the Hezbollah "cable road" show clearly that its forces are deployed as far north as the eastern slopes of the Cedars Mounts. From these positions, the Iranian-backed forces can seize the highest peak south of Turkey, leap to the Akkar district and reach the northern borders with Syria.


7. More importantly, and because of the strategic bridge between Hezbollah and Iran, this communications network is a battlefield system which can be used by the Iranian Pasdaran and eventually by Syrian Special Forces in a potential mass return to Lebanon.


In summer 2007 I presented a projection-map in a briefing to the Caucus on Counter Terrorism at the U.S. House of Representatives, as well as to a number of high ranking U.S. military personnel. It showed the potential paths of a Hezbollah offensive in Lebanon.


Indeed, strategic projections show that Hezbollah can move its forces from the south toward Beirut (which was executed in May). But it also shows that combined forces of Hezbollah and Pasdaran can move on the Damascus road to Beirut and Mount Lebanon and the center of mountain as well.


Hezbollah-Pasdaran forces would move in the north on an East-West axis and jihadist elements and pro-Syrian forces can move from the borders to Tripoli.


The Hezbollah communication systems shows that when the time will come, massive reinforcements from Syria and Iran can move swiftly along axis already secured by Hezbollah across Lebanon. The invasion of West Beirut and the attacks against the Chouf and Aley districts are only the early signs of what is to come.


8. Last but not least, the Hezbollah communications network can also allow an activation of their massive rocket and missile system across Lebanon without significant interference from Western assets.


The aim of this powerful missile force seems to be against a potential "international" force tasked with the mission of bringing peace to the country. Here again Hezbollah – and Iran – have already beaten the West in the race toward dominating the Eastern Mediterranean.

--

Walid Phares is the director of the Future Terrorism Project at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies in Washington, a visiting scholar at the European Foundation for Democracy and the author of the newly released, "The Confrontation: Winning the War against Future Jihad." '

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:30 PM

Since its very foundation in 1948 Israel has been a terrorist state acting in a terrorist way against both the indiginous Palestinian population which it has driven into exile with no right of return or which it has brutalised,criminalised and corraled in Gaza,on the occupied West Bank, in the refugee camps and in Jerusalem.
In addition it has bombed the civilian population of Lebanon and elsewhere time and time again.
Only last week the Israeli military command admitted to using cluster bombs against hevily populated civilian areas in Lebanon when it launched its invasion almost two years ago.
In Gaza there are official reports emerging about the terror tactics being used against a refugee city of over one million people which includes choking off water,fuel and food and the indiscriminate and callous bombing of civilians leading to many casualties including women and children killed or maimed by Israeli bombs and shellfire.That's state terror !
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:29 PM

who is a 'terrorist'?

The African National Congress (ANC) was designated as a terrorist organisation by South Africa's old apartheid regime and its supporters.

South Africa's apartheid government banned the ANC in 1960, imprisoning or forcing into exile its leaders.

The ANC's armed wing, uMkhontho weSizwe, which was set up after the ANC was banned in South Africa in 1960.

Mr Mandela, who turns 90 this year, was released in 1990 after spending 27 years in prison.

He then became the country's first post-apartheid-era president, before retiring after serving one term in office.

However, Nelson Mandela and other members of the African National Congress remain on the US terrorist watchlist.
ANC members who wish to travel to the USA have to get waivers from the State Department.
The former South African Ambassador to the USA was flagged and delayed when she attempted to visit a dying cousin -- by the time the red-tape had been cut, her cousin was dead.

Rep. Howard Berman, D-Calif., chairman of the House International Relations Committee, is pushing a bill that would remove current and former ANC leaders from the watch lists. Supporters hope to get it passed before Mandela's 90th birthday July 18.

"What an indignity," Berman said. "The ANC set an important example: It successfully made the change from armed struggle to peace. We should celebrate the transformation."
                           
                               .-.

Few politicians in recent Irish history have divided opinion as much as Gerry Adams. To his followers, he is regarded as one of the best leaders the republican movement has ever had.
To his fiercest unionist opponents, he is at best little more than an apologist for IRA gunmen, and at worst, a member of its highest command.

Interned by the British government in 1971 his voice was not allowed to be broadcast in the UK.

'I will never sit down with Gerry Adams ... He'd sit with anyone. He'd sit down with the devil. In fact, Adams does sit down with the devil.'
Ian Paisley quoted in The Independent, February 13 1997

In 2007 Ian Paisley and Gerry Adams sat side by side to announce they had reached agreement to share power from May 8 in a devolved Northern Ireland government.

The accord between the veteran unionist firebrand and the leader of a militant republican movement that once killed opponents was hailed in London and Dublin as the defining moment.

With goodwill and mutual understanding equality and reconciliation IS possible the strategy is to reduce the grievances that fuel violence - step one in this journey is to acknowledge them.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:26 PM

BTW,

Carol giving everyone HER views and trying to disallow their views.

You're the one who is using bully tactics to try to silence those with whom he disagrees.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:19 PM

Like I said, you can make personal attacks, Peace, but it won't do any good.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:15 PM

Peace, you speak what I've been thinking. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:55 AM

Ya know, people could go to damned near ANY 'political' thread you've ever posted to and it ends up the same old way. Carol giving everyone HER views and trying to disallow their views. Have a look at yourself, lady. And have a NICE day!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:53 AM

Yeah, yeah, Carol, yeah yeah.

Same old shit from the same old shit stirrer.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:46 AM

No, Peace, it's your racism that is showing.

The members of the terrorist paramilitary groups who committed terrorist acts such as blowing up the King David hotel (and many others) did go on to become leading members of the government of Israel. And not only that, they continued to commit (or arrange to have others commit) terrorist acts after they became the government (Google "Lavon affair").

It's not racist to point these things out. They did happen. What is racist is for you say that we can only talk about the bad things done by the groups you personally hate.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:31 AM

"But the fact is, those people went on to become the government of Israel. So should we hold all Israelis responsible for their terrorist government? No, we shouldn't. That would be racist. As is holding all of the Palestinians in Gaza responsible for Hamas."

YOUR racism is showing, lady. Make it parallel.

But the fact is, those people went on to become the government of Israel. So should we hold all Israelis responsible for their terrorist government? No, we shouldn't. That would be racist. As is holding all of the Palestinians in Gaza responsible for Hamas, the Palestinian's terrorist government.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:11 AM

However, Hamas is the government in power in Gaza while Kahane's Kach Party is banned in Israel because of its overt racism.

Yes, nevertheless, Hamas is not even all of the people in Gaza. It's only some of them. It would not be any more right to conflate all of the people in Gaza with Hamas than it would be to conflate all of the people in Israel with the terrorists who became the members of the Israeli government. People say that the Jewish terrorist groups disbanded after Israel became a state, and for some reason they think that just wipes the slate clean on the records of the people who committed acts of terrorism in those organizations. But the fact is, those people went on to become the government of Israel. So should we hold all Israelis responsible for their terrorist government? No, we shouldn't. That would be racist. As is holding all of the Palestinians in Gaza responsible for Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:06 AM

Sorry, irishingenglish. It looks like I misunderstood you. It looked to me like you were telling me I should stop talking about it. A lot of people do that, and it's possible that I've become a bit reflexive about it.

I said discussing this on a forum with people with entrenched viewpoints doesn't help much.

This is where we disagree. I don't see what I'm doing as talking to people with entrenched viewpoints. What I see myself doing is correcting a lot of historical disinformation in a public forum that is read by a lot more people than just those with entrenched viewpoints. You and I are aware of the entrenched viewpoint people because those are the ones who respond, but I know for a fact that a lot of people read these threads who don't post to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 20 May 08 - 10:26 AM

I hear you, Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 10:24 AM

G of E: Do NOT start confusing this issue with facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 20 May 08 - 10:19 AM

" think it's as inaccurate, however, to suggest that Hamas and "the Palestinians" are one and the same thing as it is to say that the Kahanists and "the Jews" are one and the same thing. Of course, we know that in both cases, they are not."

However, Hamas is the government in power in Gaza while Kahane's Kach Party is banned in Israel because of its overt racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:35 AM

Another lovely day. Morning, all.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:27 AM

Anti-Semitic Hate Speech in the Name of Islam

...satellite channels like the Hamas-run Al-Aqsa are helping to bring a message of hate and intolerance to Europe. The effects of such hate preaching can already be felt in Germany.
...During one excursion to the German Historical Museum, a group of Muslim youth gathered in front of a replica of a gas chamber in Auschwitz and applauded.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 May 08 - 07:14 AM

Carol C-"If people had tried to silence discussion about South African apartheid the way people (you included, aparently) are doing on the subject of apartheid in occupied Palestine, South Africa would still have apartheid today."

HOW DARE YOU, HOW ABSOLUTELY DARE YOU ACCUSE ME OF THAT. You don't even know me, now you are analyzing a few lines I wrote and accusing me of apathy and neglect, and indifference. Well, how's this for apathy, I don't care about anything you say.

Moreover, you plainly do not get both the reasoning and the point of my posting (Did you miss the part where I said I agreed with you some of the time, or do you only key in on what you want to key in on?)

Where did I say anywhere for people to not talk about these isssues, about me not helping to correct the problems? I didn't Carol. I said discussing this on a forum with people with entrenched viewpoints doesn't help much. That's why for the last 22 years or so Carol I have been to rallies, I have signed petitions, I have written letters, and will continue to do so. See, you really don't know me at all, so your 5 minute judgement upon me is baseless. Tell you what, I'll take the high road here, because since you don't get it, that's what I was doing with my post, and I'm going to move along. You continue your ungrounded attacks upon other people, you continue trying to browbeat people into the belief that you are the only authority on these matters, and I'm going to do something positive to compensate for it. Ta.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 01:28 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad - PM
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:42 PM

It's also important to remember that there are many Palestinians who do not support the policies of their government and are just as much victims of them as anyone else and who are working to correct that problem viz. SALAM AL-ANN!

I see that the post I was responding to in the post of mine that you are responding to here was deleted, bobad. I was responding to an anonymous guest who didn't want to make a distinction between the general population of Israel and the Israeli government. I was disagreeing with this position. Believe it or not, I do speak out when I see people posting obviously hateful things about Israelis and Jews, and I always have.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 10:41 PM

I think I'd rather turn a few more lights on, pdq.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:43 PM

When you're done, CarolC, please turn out the lights. Bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:33 PM

Let me just say this also, irishenglish...

Institutionalized social injustice never ever ends on its own. Slavery didn't end on its own, segregation in the US didn't end on its own. Apartheid in South Africa didn't end on its own. And it wasn't governments that led the way to getting rid of these forms of social injustice either.

It was social justice movements that did all of the work to bring these things to an end in the places where they existed. One of the challenges that social justice movements have always had is to inform people who have been purposely and heavily misinformed by the governments of the countries where these forms of social injustice have occurred. Governments of countries with institutionalized forms of social injustice use heavy propaganda to justify their activities, and they are often very successful in shaping people's perceptions so that they are favorable to the governments' agendas.

If one wants to end social injustice, it is always necessary to show people how they have been misled, and help them see the truth about what has been going on. It is also necessary, when a government has presented a distorted version of history for the purpose of concealing and/or justifying what it is doing, to correct this distortion of history. And in the case of the Palestinians, this distortion of history has been an enormous libel on them, and this libel has been the cause of a lot of suffering for and the deaths of a lot of Palestinians.

When someone presents us with the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as the truth, those of us who believe in social justice will tell that person that the Protocols hoax is a vicious lie that is being used to generate and spread hatred toward Jews. It is important to do this because, 1. it is a lie that spreads hatred, and 2. spreading hatred causes suffering, and 3. a lie like that one can and will be used as a justification for committing violence against Jews, and in some cases, even killing them. It is no different with the lies that the government of Israel has been promoting about the Palestinians and also about Israel's neighbors. These lies have been and are being used to justify killing a hell of a lot of people. And a lot of those people are civilians. And these lies are also being used to justify the apartheid and ethnic cleansing that Israel is forcing on the Palestinians.

Just as with the Protocols, these lies and distortions of history must be corrected. Not only because doing so is the only way to have social justice, but also because it's the only way to have peace in the Middle East. For this reason, it is not only appropriate for us to revisit what has happened in that region in the past, but it is absolutely necessary to do so.

Have you watched the video with the two former members of the Israeli military that I posted a link to? They were saying that the Israeli public is very misled by the government about what is going on in occupied Palestine, and that if the public really knew what is going on in those areas, they wouldn't stand for it. It's time to get the word out.

You may not feel that you can be involved in helping to do this work. There are many ways that people can help. But it doesn't help the Palestinians, or even the cause of peace in the Middle East to try to silence those who are doing this work. And while you may not be aware of the difference these efforts make, even in places like online forums, I can see it, and the difference I can see is enormous.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 08:35 PM

irishenglish, if the intent of the government of Israel is to continue the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians until they are all removed from occupied Palestine, and if the US continues to support Israel in this endeavor financially and with its UN vetoes, the only way to bring peace to that region is for the people in the US and Israel to make them stop.

The problem is that many people don't accept the idea that Israel is, in fact, conducting ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. They are, and they are also doing it to the non-Jewish Arab-Israelis, and there is more than ample proof of this. But in order to help people see clearly what is being done in their names and with their money, it is necessary to show what has been done in the past, along with what is being done in the present.

I will use your analogy of apartheid in South Africa. Do you think it would have been possible to end apartheid in South Africa if nobody in Western countries or in South Africa itself was allowed to talk about it and to discuss why it was wrong? Of course it wouldn't. It was because of campaigns much like those that are being conducted on behalf of the Palestinians today that South Africa was pressured into ending its apartheid. If people had tried to silence discussion about South African apartheid the way people (you included, aparently) are doing on the subject of apartheid in occupied Palestine, South Africa would still have apartheid today.

You don't help to correct these kinds of problems by telling people not to talk about them. That will only ensure that they continue indefinitely.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 08:23 PM

It's also important to remember that there are many Palestinians who do not support the policies of their government and are just as much victims of them as anyone else and who are working to correct that problem

Yes, this is true. Arafat really sold the Palestinians out when he agreed to Oslo, since it didn't provide for any kind of endgame, or provide for an end to the occupation. It also didn't grant the Palestinians the status of human being or confer upon them any rights whatever, or citizenship to any country, or status as a nation All of the Palestinian governments have really been, more than anything else, puppets of the Israeli government. None of them has represented the interests of the Palestinians at all. Pressure needs to be applied to the government in occupied Palestine to correct this situation, just as it needs to be applied to the governments of the US and Israel, and there are many Palestinians who are involved in this work.