BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 12:12 PM

The New York Times May 30, 2008
'U.S. Withdraws Fulbright Grants to Gaza'

The American State Department has withdrawn all Fulbright grants to Palestinian students in Gaza hoping to pursue advanced degrees at American institutions this fall because Israel has not granted them permission to leave

Some Israeli lawmakers, who held a hearing on the issue of student movement out of Gaza on Wednesday, expressed anger that their government was failing to promote educational and civil development in a future Palestine given the hundreds of students who had been offered grants by the United States and other Western governments.

"This could be interpreted as collective punishment," complained Rabbi Michael Melchior, chairman of the Parliament's education committee, during the hearing. "This policy is not in keeping with international standards or with the moral standards of Jews, who have been subjected to the deprivation of higher education in the past. Even in war, there are rules." Rabbi Melchior is from the Meimad Party, allied with Labor.'


Comment by Daniel Levy (a Senior Fellow and Director of the Prospects for Peace Initiative at The Century Foundation and a Senior Fellow and Director of the Middle East Initiative at the New America Foundation)

'These 7 bright youngsters make up just 0.000005% of the population of Gaza. What about the other 1.4 million Gazans living with collective punishment and under a closure that continues to have a devastating impact on every social, health and economic measure that one can imagine? And what about the 20,000 residents of the Israeli town of Sderot, and the neighboring communities, who are coming under frequent rocket barrage, including occasionally the town of Ashkelon, with its 117,000 residents? Where is American diplomacy?

....The Bush administration may yet get the seven Fulbright scholars out, and that would be great, but don't hold out hopes for the 1.4 million left behind or their Israeli neighbors'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 11:48 AM

Arran I disagree to agree

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: goatfell
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 11:42 AM

when you read this stuff you wonder why there is not any peace in the world espiecally the middle east when you can't even get fellow mudcatters to agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:52 AM

Interesting article. U.S. administration blundering once again? Perhaps Hamas took a lesson from Bush that time and did it's very own pre-emptive strike against Fatah.
"It looks to me that what happened wasn't so much a coup by Hamas but an attempted coup by Fatah that was pre-empted before it could happen"

At any rate Fatah gave up or ran for their lives to the West Bank for their lives as they were being or about to be slaughtered.

So today Hamas calls all the shots in Gaza ( in theory )- so far with no peace results, just a request for a ceasefire, which was a disaster previously.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:01 AM

I make no claims for the veracity of this report from the American magazine Vanity Fair but it presents a somewhat convincing view of the Gaza 'coup'

The Gaza Bombshell

'After failing to anticipate Hamas's victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, David Rose reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever.'

by David Rose April 2008
David Rose is a writer and investigative journalist. His work appears in the Observer and Vanity Fair. Among his books are A Climate of Fear (1992) and In the Name of the Law (Vintage, 1996)


'Vanity Fair has obtained confidential documents, since corroborated by sources in the U.S. and Palestine, which lay bare a covert initiative, approved by Bush and implemented by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Deputy National Security Adviser Elliott Abrams, to provoke a Palestinian civil war. The plan was for forces led by Dahlan, and armed with new weapons supplied at America's behest, to give Fatah the muscle it needed to remove the democratically elected Hamas-led government from power. (The State Department declined to comment.)

But the secret plan backfired, resulting in a further setback for American foreign policy under Bush. Instead of driving its enemies out of power, the U.S.-backed Fatah fighters inadvertently provoked Hamas to seize total control of Gaza'

'Within the Bush administration, the Palestinian policy set off a furious debate. One of its critics is David Wurmser, the avowed neoconservative, who resigned as Vice President Dick Cheney's chief Middle East adviser in July 2007, a month after the Gaza coup.

Wurmser accuses the Bush administration of "engaging in a dirty war in an effort to provide a corrupt dictatorship [led by Abbas] with victory." He believes that Hamas had no intention of taking Gaza until Fatah forced its hand. "It looks to me that what happened wasn't so much a coup by Hamas but an attempted coup by Fatah that was pre-empted before it could happen," Wurmser says.

The botched plan has rendered the dream of Middle East peace more remote than ever, but what really galls neocons such as Wurmser is the hypocrisy it exposed. "There is a stunning disconnect between the president's call for Middle East democracy and this policy," he says. "It directly contradicts it."'

'Dahlan says he warned his friends in the Bush administration that Fatah still wasn't ready for elections in January. Decades of self-preservationist rule by Arafat had turned the party into a symbol of corruption and inefficiency—a perception Hamas found it easy to exploit. Splits within Fatah weakened its position further: in many places, a single Hamas candidate ran against several from Fatah.

"Everyone was against the elections," Dahlan says. Everyone except Bush. "Bush decided, 'I need an election. I want elections in the Palestinian Authority.' Everyone is following him in the American administration, and everyone is nagging Abbas, telling him, 'The president wants elections.' Fine. For what purpose?"

The elections went forward as scheduled. On January 25, Hamas won 56 percent of the seats in the Legislative Council
Few inside the U.S. administration had predicted the result, and there was no contingency plan to deal with it. "I've asked why nobody saw it coming," Condoleezza Rice told reporters. "I don't know anyone who wasn't caught off guard by Hamas's strong showing."

"Everyone blamed everyone else," says an official with the Department of Defense. "We sat there in the Pentagon and said, 'Who the fuck recommended this?' "

Some analysts argued that Hamas had a substantial moderate wing that could be strengthened if America coaxed it into the peace process. Notable Israelis—such as Ephraim Halevy, the former head of the Mossad intelligence agency—shared this view. But if America paused to consider giving Hamas the benefit of the doubt, the moment was "milliseconds long," says a senior State Department official.

"The administration spoke with one voice: 'We have to squeeze these guys.''


This is a long detailed and analytical piece of investigative reporting but definately interesting and rewarding reading for its apparent insight into American Policy and it's role; it certainly does not repudiate Hamas' use of force.

In conclusion....

'It is impossible to say for sure whether the outcome in Gaza would have been any better—for the Palestinian people, for the Israelis, and for America's allies in Fatah—if the Bush administration had pursued a different policy. One thing, however, seems certain: it could not be any worse.'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 09:31 AM

Whoops- I meant agreements don't get done

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 09:25 AM

Hamas may operate without corruption, but they don't take kindly to any opposition as witnessed against Fatah with it's coup. While those statements Emmas wrote in the last post seem accurate, the fact is Israel is not willing to budge as long as militants in Gaza fire rockets- and they hold Hamas responsible for not using their power to stop them. If they can crack down on Fatah, obviously they are capable of doing the same with the others.- So leadership in Israel says if Hamas doesn't do anything, then they will, and so the violence goes on and and agreements get done.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 08:30 AM

Helga Baumgarten, a German political scientist and professor at Birzeit University in Jerusalem has stated....

"In the International Crisis Group's 2003 report, the most important American NGOs gave perfect marks to Hamas's work; they couldn't have achieved a better result,"

Baumgarten believes that the success of the party, which emerged from the radical Muslim Brotherhood in 1987, is based on two factors: the highly professional work of the group's welfare agencies and Hamas's oft-cited integrity. "In fact, all studies have concluded that Hamas operates without a trace of corruption," says Baumgarten. "This has enabled it to gain the respect of the population over the years."

"Social commitment is not a means to an end; I would not interpret this merely as exploitation," says Baumgarten. And even if it were, parties the world over operate no differently."

reported in Spiegel online

Please note, I'm not an 'apologist' for Hamas which continues to see itself as the spearhead of Palestinian resistance against the Israeli occupation.

I have stated before I'm not 'pro' anyone just opposed to the injustice and illegality of the collective punishment imposed upon the million and a half men women and children behind the Apartheid Wall.

My arguement is, and remains, that - to quote the International Crisis Group -

"The policy of isolating Hamas and sanctioning Gaza is bankrupt and, by all conceivable measures, has backfired.
Violence is rising, harming both Gazans and Israelis. Economic conditions are ruinous, generating anger and despair.

Economic punishment designed to hurt the rulers has hurt the ruled.

Sanctions and military pressure have strengthened Hamas's hold.

To the extent the movement has lost some popularity, the attempt to enfeeble it by squeezing Gaza arguably is working, but the success is meaningless. Hamas's losses are not Fatah's gains; Gazans blame Hamas for being unable to end the siege but also blame Israel for imposing it, the West for supporting it and Fatah for acquiescing in it.

Military talk empowers Hamas's more militant, armed elements and boosts the movement's standing.

Poverty and hopelessness boost the appeal of jihadi groups, particularly among under-sixteen Gazans –- half the population."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:55 AM

Well Emma B, Guest Zach, Guest David, perhaps you could tell us all exactly what Hamas, as the elected representatives of the Palestinian people, have done for them?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 31 May 08 - 08:11 PM

Whether or not Gush Shalom can be considered unbiased is totally irrelevant to the question of whether or not the map displayed in their website is accurate. If someone can successfully disproove the existence of the Jewish-only roads bisecting each of the areas that were offered for Palestinian control under the Barak proposal, then we might have something that can be considered a counter-argument. So far, I have not seen anything like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 31 May 08 - 08:03 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,Zach - PM
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:31 PM

Interesting thread, some great points. Teribus, you are both ill-informed and clearly ignorant. You really do write some crap man.

Says it all really!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Zach
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:56 PM

Congress has now officially passed a bill banning Teribus from posting in the United States. The bill brought before Congress by presidential hopeful Senator Hilary Clinton states that posts by Teribus are a planets distance away from fact or reality.

Teribus, also known as Walter Mitty, has been posting on every thread from politics, work stress, man-problems, depression, menstrual pains and any other military thread for years now. The Senator admittedly confessed to reading Teribus's rumors, adding is this the male equivalent of Monica Lewinsky?


What she found is the basis for the new legislative law. Teibus's posts contained very little truth or fact. These little morsels he chucks in daily are increasing the daily Valium intake of other members significantly.

This reporter consulted the on-staff comment reading expert known as "Kings Own" who informed me that Catters have know this for years, but never spoke up. In fact the first time that Teribus posted, he insulted everyone on that thread !

In closing, the Senators plan of action is to de-crease the amount of posts this modern day Audie Murphy writes on political or military issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:44 PM

Hey Emma B, note that for some reason best known to yourself you refuse to answer my question - Now why is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:41 PM

Arnie I took your 'advice' and looked at the homepage of Gush shalom

There I found such articles as -

Ceasefire NOW! - joint Israeli-Palestinian call

'The escalation in and around the Gaza Strip is causing terrible suffering to people - to men, women, elderly and children, Palestinian as well as Israeli civilians

Yet the individuals caught in the fighting are all suffering - on both sides of the fighting, among both peoples. The pain of living in daily fear, of being wounded and mutilated for life, of grieving for the loss of loved ones, is the same pain - whether one's country be oppressed or oppressor, occupied or occupier, rich or poor, powerful or powerless.

The attacks on both sides of the border feed on each other and intensify each other. Palestinians in Gaza, rightly feeling themselves still living under occupation despite the Israeli 'disengagement', seek to resist occupation, but when some use launching of rockets against civilians, they manage only to provide an additional justification for tightening the siege on Gaza and the escalation of Israeli violence'


Now this doesn't seem particularly 'biased' to me it's exactly what I would hope and expect from an Isreali organization committed to attempting to find a just peace for both sides in this conflict.

The organization has also fought for the 'rights' of young Isreali men who are 'concientious objectors'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:22 PM

"Arnie, are you suggesting Palestinians aren't human?"
NO not at all! Jeepers! The organization's website appears to be a Palestinian rights organization only- not Human Rights, other's rights. Why don't they state that in an obvious fashion on the homepage instead of deluding everyone that they are a non bias Peace Movement?( actually I guess they have - it's kind of obvious ). If it was for Human Rights - there would be some amount of sympathy somewhere for Israeli citizen concerns as well. Do you find that on their homepage - pretty difficult isn't it? Isn't it bogus when you are in favor of human rights for primarily one group of people when you declare yourself a world peace movement? They may want Peace - but they appear biased.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:18 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus - PM
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:08 PM

'big boys rules - live with it.'

says it all really

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 31 May 08 - 06:52 PM

Aw GUEST,Hugo your post of 31 May 08 - 03:07 PM really got to me. It really made me realise exactly what the realities of the situation out there in middle-east are. I feel that I must quote you verbatum to impart what the situation is as YOU and YOU alone have brought it to our attention:

Now just before we start this little exercise let us just have it firmly fixed in our minds who it was the "Palestinians" voted for to look after their interests - please note the "Palastinians" are not Hamas - they actually happen to be normal everyday people like you and me.

Now let's get on to Guest Hugo's post, because it is very important:

"About 70%of families in Gaza receive water once every 5 days and 30% only have access to water every 7 days according to Rami Abdu a spokesman for The Popular Committee For Countering The Siege of The Gaza Strip."

Guest Hugo did Hamas broadcast that this would probably be result of people voting for them and their confrontational policies at the time of the election? Or did they stick to that old fairy tale that once we have annihilated the Jews everything that they owned will be yours?

Guest Hugo - Lesson on reality - once you stand for election you, repeat YOU, are responsible for delivering things and looking after people who voted for you - they have not voted for you to fall in with your "never-in-one-thousand-year-agenda"

The fuckin' Palastinians are short of fuckin' water exactly what are their elected representatives doing about getting them water - BIG FUCKING HINT Guest David firing missiles into Israel aint going to help them - HAVE YOU GOT THAT - Hamas and Hezbollah as such fuckin' haven't!!!

"In addition, much of the water supply is unsafe to drink because of the water and sewage spare parts and maintenance equipment has been barred from Gaza along with the 150000 litres of diesel needed each week to keep the water network operational."

Hey Guest David, the people you rate as flavour of the month can smuggle rockets into Gaza but they can't make the water system work?? Hey come on pal what exactly are their fuckin' priorities - Not to wish to belabour a point but it obviously isn't the people under their charge is it??

"The drinking water is unsafe because the network itself has been damaged by the actions of the Israeli military which has been tearing up roads and fields and the basic infrastructure of the Gaza."

And Hamas has done exactly what to rectify this situation between their almost continuous rocket attacks on Israel??

"A million people of all ages with all kinds of health needs are one year into a brutal blockade and are surrounded by huge floods of raw sewage. The infrastructure of Gaza is being demolished or destroyed."

How many missiles have Hamas, the elected representatives of the people, smuggled into Gaza?? Come on Guest David hazard a guess. Tell us exactly what good that that has done the people that voted for them? Give yu a nudge in the right direction - Sweet Fuck All

"It seems like biological warfare is being waged alongside the conventional military and economic blockade of Gaza." - Would that that were so Guest Hugo - It would at least put the poor bastards out of their misery a damn sight quicker than their pro-Arab Hamas sponsors have tormented them with over the last 60 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 31 May 08 - 06:29 PM

Arnie, are you suggesting Palestinians aren't human?

btw
Gush Shalom (Hebrew: âåù ùìåí, "the Peace Bloc") is a peace activist group which sees itself as the hardcore of Israeli peace movement. Gush Shalom is an extra-parliamentary organization, independent of any party or other political grouping. Some of its activists do belong to political parties, but the Gush is not aligned to any particular party

The Gush was founded by former journalist Uri Avnery in 1993 because he was disappointed by other Israeli peace movements such as Peace Now
The movement supports soldiers' refusal to serve in the West Bank or Gaza strip and a pragmatic implementation of Palestinian right of return.

In addition

Gush Shalom received the Right Livelihood Award in 2001 = is an award that is presented annually, usually on December 9, to honour those "working on practical and exemplary solutions to the most urgent challenges facing the world today".

The prize is sometimes called the Alternative Nobel Prize

This information is from Wikipedia not usually associated with a Palestinian bias

Well I'm NOT with Arnie who seems to think he can throw words like 'bogus' around and discredit an Isreali peace movement

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 08 - 06:03 PM

The source dictates the parameters of the argument. In politics, in economics, in philosophy, in life. I'm with Arnie on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:53 PM

Carole says: "Gush Shalom is a human rights organization". Who's human rights -Go look at their site! They are a Palestinian rights organization only - bogus

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 31 May 08 - 03:16 PM

If an argument is flawed, one can easily discredit the argument. It is not necessary to attack the credibility of the source. If the only counter-argument that can be made is to try to discredit the source, there really is no legitimate counter-argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 31 May 08 - 03:07 PM

About 70%of families in Gaza receive water once every 5 days and 30% only have access to water every 7 days according to Rami Abdu a spokesman for The Popular Committee For Countering The Siege of The Gaza Strip.

In addition, much of the water supply is unsafe to drink because of the water and sewage spare parts and maintenance equipment has been barred from Gaza along with the 150000 litres of diesel needed each week to keep the water network operational.

The drinking water is unsafe because the network itself has been damaged by the actions of the Israeli military which has been tearing up roads and fields and the basic infrastructure of the Gaza.

A million people of all ages with all kinds of health needs are one year into a brutal blockade and are surrounded by huge floods of raw sewage .The infrastructure of Gaza is being demolished or destroyed .

It seems like biological warfare is being waged alongside the conventional military and economic blockade of Gaza.Archbishop Tutu of South Africa,that champion of the oppressed, was so right in calling the blockade of Gaza "an abomination".
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 08 - 02:59 PM

Re 'attacking the source of an argument': When Dick Cheney is the source . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 31 May 08 - 02:54 PM

"Attacking the credibility of a source is an ad homenem (sic)argument. It's not a legitimate argument."

What arrant nonsense! Of course attacking the credibility of a source is a legitimate means of argument. Suppose a source was giving erroneous information on a regular basis, it is perfectly alright to point that out in rebuttal that their credibility is lacking.

Should we not always consider the point of view of person or group providing information? Whether information comes from The Wall Street Journal, The New York times, the White House Press Secretary, the DNC one needs to be aware of their biases and their point of view. So, too, with Palestinian spokes people or Israelis. Also, are they speaking for an organization, or expressing a private opinion (opinions, as someone pointed out are not facts? Are they speaking from first hand knowledge, or from hearsay? Do the deeds of the source match its pronouncements? All of those are fair argumentation.

The most egregious form of ad hominem attack I have seen at Mudcat was the discussion concerning Ann Coulter's comments on the Donny Deutsch show. I venture to guess that ninety percent of the anti-Coulter arguments were in effect "she's ugly, "she's a skinny bitch' and similar; precious few posts actually addressed the comments she made, or tried to rebut them. Those, my dear, were truly ad hominem arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 31 May 08 - 02:06 PM

Gush Shalom is a human rights organization. There seems to be a bit of a double standard by people who attack sources that advocate on behalf of human rights for Palestinian as being "biased", while getting their information from sources that have been proven to not only be biased, but also lying.

Attacking the credibility of a source is an ad homenem argument. It's not a legitimate argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 08 - 01:51 PM

Yer right Peace - SSDD!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 08 - 01:25 PM

Keriste. And folks wonder why there is no peace in the Middle East. Looked at this thread lately?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,David
Date: 31 May 08 - 01:07 PM

Palestine Lives
Israel controls all the crossing points into and out of Gaza.They control these points with machine guns,tanks and all the other military hardware it needs to lock down a city of over a million people.

Just a few days ago in the south of Gaza Israeli soldiers fired live ammunition at a protest of some 2000 unarmed Gazan who were demanding that the crossing into Egypt be opened so that food,fuel and other essentials could enter Gaza and of course so that the residents there could also have freedom of movement.

The demonstarion was fired on at some 13 Gazan Palestinian were shot and injured adding yet more casualties to the severely overcrowded and under resourced hospitals which are struggling to obtain power,medicines and other necessities.

As for the suggestion that a patient with brain cancer be moved hundreds of metres in a narrow sand tunnel it doesn't really hold up to scrutiny does it?
DAVID

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 08 - 11:33 AM

Arnie - In case you haven't noticed, practically this entire thread has become a platform for finding and posting "facts" and opinions that support the views of one side or the other. In today's age of information availability this exercise can go on ad infinitum. I don't see it as accomplishing anything positive other that disseminating propaganda. Carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 31 May 08 - 11:19 AM

Carole - thanks for pointing out the map details by pointing us to a completely biased webpage and organization as Gush Shalom. Another organization that says they promote peace with completely one sided information and propaganda. Although some of their info presented is valid and academic in form, they lay it out in such a way as to place no blame whatsoever on the Palestinians or their leadership, and shows how bogus they are. Go to their homepage folks and have a look http://zope.gush-shalom.org/index_en.html

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 31 May 08 - 10:06 AM

Guest David, who is it that actually controls the crossings into Egypt?

If Hamas can smuggle rockets into Gaza then surely they can smuggle people out. They are the people who were elected to be in charge of everybody in the Gaza strip. Can you give us any indication at all when, IF EVER, they are going to step up to the plate and assume the duty and responsibility for doing that instead of their continued game of playing "silly buggers" with Israel which for the last 60 years has got them absolutely nowhere - SLOW LEARNING CURVE OR WHAT!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,David
Date: 31 May 08 - 09:20 AM

Palestine Lives
Three Palestinian females who needed urgent medical treatment died earlier this month after being refused permission to leave Gaza which is under Israeli siege.
Gaza city resident Ahmahan Al Jamal a thirteen year old girl suffering from brain cancer, died after being refused permission to obtain medical care while two women Zakyiah Sa'dah 59, and Nathmiah Abdah 55, both from the Al Maghazi refugee camp in Gaza also died after being refused exit. Zakyiah had heart problems and Nathmiah was a cancer patient.

All three were victims of the blockade and so far the number who have died seeking to travel out of Gaza for medical care has risen to 145 since the siege began in June 2007.
These details are rarely if ever mentioned in the Western media but surely constitue a war crime against civilians.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: goatfell
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:29 AM

I got the words fro this from a webiste, if only it would come true
Last Night I Had The) Strangest Dream

    * (Ed McCurdy)

      Chorus:
      Last night I had the strangest dream
      I never dreamed before
      I dreamed the world had all agreed
      To put an end to war

      I dreamed I saw a mighty room
      And the room was filled with men
      And the paper they were signing said
      They'd never fight again

      And when the paper was all signed
      And a million copies made
      They all joined hands, bowed their heads
      And grateful prayers were prayed

      The people in the streets below
      Were dancing round and round
      And swords and guns and uniforms
      Lay scattered on the ground

      (as sung by Iain MacKintosh & Hamish Imlach)

Susannes Folksong-Notizen

    *

      english [1965:] [This was already] some years old when it caught on as an expression of commonsense hopes. (Notes 'Spotlight On The Spinners')
    *

      english [1966:] In 1950 young Ed McCurdy came up to the hotel room of the Weavers [...]. He sang us [this] which he'd just made up. The song has never been on the top forty, but has gradually spread throughout much of the world. (Notes Pete Seeger, 'Waist Deep In The Big Muddy')
    *

      german [1977:] Das Lied schrieb Ed McCurdy zu Beginn der Ostermarschbewegung in England. (Liederkiste 43)

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 31 May 08 - 03:50 AM

Here's another set of maps, along with an explanation of what was offered and what was accepted. The final map is the last offer that Barak made to Arafat. Arafat accepted this offer, but Barak never showed it to the Israeli public...

http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 31 May 08 - 03:16 AM

Agree with Guest Arnie on the quality of the map links supplied by CarolC, particularly the one from PASSIA, the "key" to which is a incomplete.

Guest Albert, the actions taken by IDF against what appear to be completely innocent farmers should be condemned as strongly as possible if the facts of the matter are indeed as laid out. I would however like to hear what the IDF's reasons were for destroying the sections of that farm that they did, and why they didn't destroy it completely if they felt justified in their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 31 May 08 - 01:13 AM

I'm starting to see a pattern with the allegations of corruption that are being leveled at Olmert. When Sharon was at about the same stage in negotiations with the Palestinians as Olmert is now, the same kinds of charges were being leveled at him. And then he went into his coma before he could do anything more. Both times, Netanyahu was/is waiting in the wings to take power in the event that an election is held.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 31 May 08 - 01:08 AM

The maps in the links can be clicked on to magnify them. In the Israeli map, the red areas are separated by Israeli controlled areas, and also they are divided up by roads. If one looks at each red area, one can see a lot of roads snaking around and through it. Each of those roads separates the red area it is in into much smaller areas. Those roads are barriers to movement for the Palestinians. They are apartheid, Jewish-only roads that the Palestinians are not allowed to use or cross. The only way Palestinians can get from one side of one of those roads to the other side is to travel to the nearest checkpoint, and go through the arduous process of trying to be allowed to pass through. People often have to wait for hours or days to get through, and they are also often not allowed through at all. And each red area is also surrounded by Israeli controlled land that the Palestinians have to go through the same process to cross.

That is not independence. It is imprisonment.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 30 May 08 - 10:44 PM

Those links you sent are of poor viewing quality- I can't really tell what's going on there, but to say that what they rejected "was tiny bantustans surrounded by apartheid" is kind of laughable. Just from a glance I can see that the red area could probably easily accommodate all those living there at the time- an area consisting of 90% of occupied West Bank - what's tiny about that? I think it's bigger that the rest of the state of Israel that would be left afterwards. "but not enough for the Palestinians to be able to live and prosper" - a load of bullshit. He was so close to making a real positive change for his people. His golden opportunity finally arrived and He blew it. He went from almost having a state, peace, security, economic ties with Israel to having absolutely nothing at all and now his people live in despair. So much for the Nobel Peace Prize Winner - he should have won the Peace Prize Loser.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 08 - 10:02 PM

What Arafat rejected was tiny bantustans surrounded by apartheid, Jewish only settlement blocs and apartheid, Jewish only roads (separating the bantustans, one from another). That 90 percent figure might represent the actual percentage of area that would be called Palestine, but only about 40 percent of that would actually be controlled by the Palestinians, and that 40 percent would be in the form of tiny areas separated from each other by the settlements and the roads.

It would not have been possible to have a viable state in the area that was being offered to the Palestinians.

Here is what Israel was offering the Palestinians...

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/passiacampdavid2000.gif

Here is what Arafat was willing to agree to...

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/taba_palestiniancounter.jpg


The Israeli map shows that Israel has no intention of ever letting the Palestinians have a viable independent state. They will only consider giving them enough to be able to say that they "gave the Palestinians a state", but not enough for the Palestinians to be able to live and prosper.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:49 PM

Frank - I think there are some good and important facts presented here in some of these posts - maybe nothing for you, (discarding all the name calling and obvious over the top propaganda on all sides.)That is the purpose of this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:40 PM

B.B. There has always been propagandistic crap from Israel and Palestinians. There is nothing informative here. Both sides have engaged not only in a war of words but of ideology and neither seems to want to recognize the humanity of the other.

The problem of course is that Israel is militarily stronger than Palestinians due to their advancement of nuclear weapons and materiel provided by the US. So who is the David or the Goliath?

Noam Chomsky at first advocated the One State solution and then I guess realizing that nobody would accept this then supported the Two State solution which is better than nothing I think.

Fortunately, there are sane heads in Israel that often make the pages of Ha'Eretz" such as the leader of Gush Shalom, Ari Avnery and other notable critics such as Chomsky, Juan Cole, and Dahr Jamail. I would trust what they have to say rather than some trumped-up
piece of Bushlike inflammatory rhetoric disguised as "fact".

Peace in the Mid-East will not be accomplished by enemy-posing and name-calling and phony pronouncements by either side.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:05 PM

We should take with a large pinch of salt any statement by the zionists that the Palestinians were responsible for rejecting the Camp David agreement of 2000.
Israel is simply not interested in a just settlement .Its intentions are perfectly clear -
1 Batter Gaza into an abject compliance.

2 Continue the illegal settlements in the West Bank to create demographic facts on the ground.

3 Settle accounts with Hezbollah sometime in the future after it has worked out how to deal with their sophisticated guerrilla tactics.

4 Encourage the USA to continue its policy of destabilizing Lebanon.
5 Split Syria away from its alliance with Iran...but it will not give up the Golan.

6 Continue with the bantustan policy on the West Bank and control the Palestinians via the Apartheid Wall, dozens and dozens of checkpoints,
transport controls,imprisonment of Palestinians etc.Also continue to steal water from the Jordan River.

7 Continue to maintain close links with its biggest supporter The USA which provides it with huge quantities of military and economic aid.
8. No right of return for Palestinian refugee and their children and grandchildren.

These policies have turned Israel into one of the most brutal,racist oppressive and dangerous countries in the world.They are a recipe for continued conflict and oppression,barbarity and bigotry.
Let us remember that by smashing up the secular led Fatah movement the Zionists helped with the creation of Hamas.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 30 May 08 - 05:59 PM

"I should also point out that some people are saying that Hamas should have prevented rockets being fired by other groups
They also should be doing this today!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:21 PM

I should also point out that some people are saying that Hamas should have prevented rockets being fired by other groups. If Hamas should be expected to prevent these things, then, equally, the government of Israel should be expected to prevent settler attacks on Palestinians. But we can see in some of the videos I posted earlier in the thread, not only do they not prevent them, but they (in the form of their representatives in occupied Palestine, the IDF) sometimes even stand by and watch while the attacks are taking place.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:17 PM

The government of Israel does not prosecute the vast majority of settler attacks on Palestinians. And of the ones that are prosecuted, almost none are punished in any way.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:55 PM

Here are some snipits from an article in today's Jerusalem post:

According to the Palestinians, the future status of Jerusalem, the problem of the refugees and the borders of the future Palestinian state are only some of the major obstacles that have prevented progress at the negotiating table.

The real problem lies in the fact that there is no Palestinian leader today who would be able to accept anything less than what Yasser Arafat rejected at the botched Camp David summit in the summer of 2000. Then, according to Israelis who participated in the talks, Arafat was offered more than 90% of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, in addition to the Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem.

Abbas is also seen by many Palestinians as a weak and uncharismatic leader. Even worse, he is being held responsible for the fact that the Palestinians are today more divided than ever. His failure to encourage reforms in the ruling Fatah faction and his failure to solve the crisis with Hamas have damaged his image as a strong leader.

Abbas has promised to bring any agreement he achieves with Israel to a referendum. But, given the fact that he has no control over the Gaza Strip or the refugee camps in neighboring Arab countries, it's hard to see how such a referendum could be held. Besides, there is a high probability that a majority of Palestinians would say no to a deal that does not give them 100% of their demands.

"Both Olmert and Abbas are too weak at this stage to reach an agreement," said a Palestinian newspaper editor in Ramallah. "Neither of them would be able to sell an agreement to his people." .........................
They argue that, in any case, a declaration of principles - or a "framework agreement" - would not be too bad, particularly if it includes recognition of the Palestinians' demands regarding Jerusalem, settlements, borders and refugees. Livni, Barak, Binyamin Netanyahu or whoever succeeds Olmert won't be able to ignore such an agreement, and will have to negotiate with the Palestinians on the basis of the understandings. That's perhaps why the PA leadership does not seem to be very worried about who will succeed Olmert.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:51 PM

"Hamas should no more be held responsible for actions taken by other groups in areas over which it has control than the Isreali government should."
I disagree 100% with this statement! If Hamas or the Israeli government wants legitimacy in the eyes of the world, they are the ones that have the responsibility to take action against civilian criminal acts, and are the ones to blame for not reigning them in. I know Israel prosecutes murderers - Hamas glorifies them.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:37 PM

Hamas said it was not responsible for the rockets. I've never noticed any reluctance on the part of Hamas to claim responsibility for attacks they have instigated. One thing you can say about them, right or wrong in their behavior overall, they're pretty up front about what they are doing.

Hamas should no more be held responsible for actions taken by other groups in areas over which it has control than the Isreali government should. The Israeli government does not do anything at all to prevent or stop settler attacks on Palestinians. On the contrary, it assists those settlers in getting away with those attacks. Double standards for behavior don't work in the long run. Not if peace and security is the goal.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:54 PM

Carole said"
"Israel did not participate in that cease fire. Only Hamas did."
"While Hamas was unilaterally engaging in a cease fire, Israel had continued bombing occupied Palestine and had killed quite a few civilians as well as Hamas members in their campaign of assassinating Hamas members."

About 200 rockets fired into Israel from Gaza during that ceasefire? (not claimed by Hamas) Hamas in control should have stopped the militants within Gaza from firing rockets, instead they actively supported them behind the cover of the official Hamas ceasefire, and in doing so made themselves targets for reprisal and assassination. Surely Did they didn't expect Israel to just sit back and take it - for how long?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:35 PM

From September of 2000 to April of 2008:


Palestinians killed by Israelis (security forces and civilians)...

4833


Palestinians killed by Palestinians...

577


http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp