BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:26 PM

While Hamas was unilaterally engaging in a cease fire, Israel had continued bombing occupied Palestine and had killed quite a few civilians as well as Hamas members in their campaign of assassinating Hamas members.

I will put this another way. Israel did not participate in that cease fire. Only Hamas did. Israel kept on killing and assassinating Palestinians civilians and members of Hamas during that period. Hamas demonstrated that they are capable of doing what they say they will do, and they demonstrated that they can be trusted to not engage in any violent acts when they say this is what they will do. What Israel demonstrated during this time is that violence from Hamas is not the reason for anything that Israel does to the Palestinians. It's just an excuse for things they would do, and have done, even in the absence of violence from Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:19 PM

Palestinian groups have a bit of a reputation for massacring civilians. Mostly other Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 30 May 08 - 10:07 AM

Guest Albert, tell us all about Muhammad Jamal al-Durrah.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 30 May 08 - 09:27 AM

to Bearded Bruce
If you believe that you will believe anything! But Israel does have a bit of a reputation for massacring civilians and eventually isuing a denial along the lines of
"It wasn't me guv"
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 08 - 07:23 AM

Guest, albert,

You stated:

7
It has shelled picnicers on the beach.


Might want to check the facts on that one. It was an errent PALESTINIAN missile that killed them, about 15 minutes after the Israeli shelling of Palestinain rocket launchers stopped.

Palestinians have killed about as many Palestinians as the Israelis. But that seems to be ok to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:43 AM

Palestine Lives
Nasser Jaber is a chicken farmer in Rafah ,southern Gaza.He and his brothers had spent 18 years building up the business which produced 45,000 eggs a day. He did not belong to any political grouping or armed faction.
A few days ago at 4am two Israeli armoured bulldozers and an Israeli military unit enterd the chicken farm and spent four hours bulldozing it down to the ground.
When they left they left piles of rubble,twisted metals sheets , and thousands of dead chickens in the ruins of what had been a thriving million dollar business.
Mr Jaber's workers are now trying to pull the putrifying dead chicken out of the rubble before they cause further disease and an awful stench.
The Israeli army is steadily destroying farmland in Gaza .It is ripping up land,bulldozing green areas and orchards and destroying farms and farm buildings.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:37 PM

This was the aftermath of the first ceasefire: I wonder why Israel is a bit reluctant to trust them this time?
        
WND Exclusive FROM WND'S JERUSALEM BUREAU
Hamas: Cease-fire officially over
Launches massive rocket attack, threatens suicide bombings
Posted: April 24, 2007
12:08 pm Eastern

JERUSALEM – A truce Hamas made with Israel in Gaza last November is "officially over," Hamas leaders told WND today, threatening to send suicide bombers into Tel Aviv if the Jewish state retaliates for a major attack carried out this morning.

"We don't recognize Israel's right to exist. We will never allow Jews to remain in our lands. Today's attack was only a sample of what we can do. We have thousands of rockets ready to be shot. The cease-fire is officially over," said Abu Abdullah, considered one of the most important operational members of Izzedine al-Qassam Martyrs Brigades, Hamas' so-called military wing.

In the first rocket attack it claimed responsibility for in five months, Hamas earlier today fired 39 Qassam rockets and 79 mortars from the Gaza Strip aimed at nearby Jewish communities. The projectiles were meant to be a diversion as the group attempted to storm an Israeli military base on the Gaza border to kidnap Israeli soldiers.

The attacks occurred as Israelis nationwide celebrated the country's Independence Day.

The Israel Defense Forces thwarted the kidnap attempt and dispatched helicopters to intercept the gunmen behind it. Missiles were fired at Qassam launch pads in Gaza. The IDF at first said only 10 rockets were fired by Hamas in today's attack but later admitted "dozens" of Qassams were launched.

IDF sources said the military's response to today's Hamas attacks will be limited.

Hamas' Abu Abdullah threatened if Israel raided Gaza "the Zionists will be entering hell. We are preparing a major cemetery for them. We will step up attacks, including dispatching suicide bombers to Tel Aviv."

Following today's attack, the Hamas-led Palestinian government issued a statement calling for calm. Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh claimed his government would dedicate efforts to convince Palestinian factions to maintain the truce with Israel.

But Abu Abdullah told WND today's attacks were coordinated with the Hamas political leadership.

He said Hamas used the cease-fire to stockpile weaponry and train for attacks against the Jewish state.

In November, Israel agreed to a truce with Gaza militants in which the Jewish state vowed to suspend anti-terror operations in the Gaza Strip in exchange for quiet. Since then, more than 200 rockets have been fired from Gaza, but the IDF largely has restrained itself from operating in the territory.

Hamas has not taken responsibility for rocket attacks the past five months, but Israel says the group has been passing rockets on to other Palestinian organizations to carry out attacks. Hamas last month took credit for a shooting attack at the Gaza border.

Days after the Nov. 23 truce was made, Hamas leaders in Gaza granted a series of exclusive interviews to WND in which they said the new agreement would be used to smuggle weapons into the Gaza Strip; reinforce and train "fighter units"; and produce rockets for a future confrontation with the Jewish state.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:10 PM

"The latest deaths bring the number of Palestinians killed since a rocket fired from inside Gaza killed a 44-year-old Israeli in the town of Sderot last week to 80. Two Israeli soldiers also died in the fighting. Late last night, the office of the Hamas prime minister, Ismail Haniyeh, was attacked by an Israeli aircraft, which hit the building with three missiles. Although no casualties were reported, witnesses said the building was destroyed.

The latest bloodshed comes as an Observer investigation revealed how Israel is again deliberately obstructing the transfer of urgent medical cases for treatment outside Gaza, in the latest extension of its policy of collective punishment of Palestinians.

The death toll climbed through yesterday as Israeli troops targeted Palestinian militants who fired rockets and mortar shells into Israel. The operation follows last week's warning by Israel's deputy defence minister, Matan Vilnai, that a 'holocaust' would be unleashed on Gaza if rocket fire was not halted."

OK then Emma B, there are two peoples shoes I want you to climb into here and view the situation from their perspective:

The first is from the perspective of someone who is responsible for the safety of the general population at large in Israel. You are faced with the problem of a group, or several groups, of people firing rockets from their land into your civilian centres of population. Their aim is to kill as many of your people as possible, these people have trying to do this with varying degrees of success for the last 88 years. They have clearly stated that their goal is your annihilation - How do you view them? What is your response? You are primarily responsible for the protection of your people.

The second is from the perspective of a Palestinian Arab father with a family, who is living next to a small piece of waste ground upon which a "militant" group have assembled a firing point for rockets. By bitter experience you know that they will be extremely lucky to kill one Israeli, and even if they don't, you know that return fire may kill 80 of your neighbours, possibly including your own children, all this due to the fact that they have positioned their firing point in the middle of a civilian centre of population. Who do you blame for the ensuing deaths? Do you ever question the stance that "victory" can only ever be achieved by the total annihilation of Israel and its people? Have you ever embraced the thought that people can co-exist and work in harmony?

Remember this from what you have quoted:

1. "Palestinian militants who fired rockets and mortar shells into Israel." - i.e. indiscriminate fire at civilian targets inside Israel.

2. "Israeli troops targeted Palestinian militants who fired rockets and mortar shells into Israel."

See any marked difference there Emma? I look forward with interst to what you have to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:14 PM

Hamas has said that they are willing to accept Israel if Israel will withdraw to the pre-1967 lines and leave the Palestinians alone, as long as this is what the Palestinians say they want, and they have said that this is what they want. This is the only legal option under international law. Israel is using collective punishment in order to try to circumvent its obligations under international law.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:10 PM

The rockets ain't coming from Damascus.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:07 PM

Peace, you yourself have pointed out that there are other 'factions' operating inside Gaza.

The cease fire proposed by Hamas had, as reported, the 'preliminary approval' of Islamic Jihad and 'other groups' based in Damascus.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:05 PM

I do think Hamas wants a ceasefire. I don't think the faction(s) firing the rockets wants a ceasefire.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:05 PM

Emma - I asked Carole "Do you believe it is Israeli policy to attack civilians"? and you used my question to address the collective punishment argument. You didn't answer that question. Also yes the deputy defense minister words were rather stupid invoking the "Shoah" comparison, but obviously made out of pure frustration at the constant rocked bombardments - putting so much pressure on him from the Israeli public to really do something about it militarily finally to end them, which is still a strong possibility. He was trying to warn Hamas that if this happens many innocent people could get killed in the process because Hamas just won't stop the rockets.
I do believe somehow Israel needs to negotiate with Hamas somehow, but we don't know why the previous cease fire offers weren't accepted - do we? - all we can do is guess and make propaganda out of false accusations that come from our imaginations. The conditions have to be met and the will on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:01 PM

The ceasefire Hamas offered was couched in terms like "do our best to stop the attacks".

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:01 PM

'Israel's military killed at least 60 Palestinians yesterday - almost half of them civilians, including four children - in its most violent assault on the Gaza Strip since the Islamic militant group Hamas seized power last June.

The latest deaths bring the number of Palestinians killed since a rocket fired from inside Gaza killed a 44-year-old Israeli in the town of Sderot last week to 80. Two Israeli soldiers also died in the fighting. Late last night, the office of the Hamas prime minister, Ismail Haniyeh, was attacked by an Israeli aircraft, which hit the building with three missiles. Although no casualties were reported, witnesses said the building was destroyed.

The latest bloodshed comes as an Observer investigation revealed how Israel is again deliberately obstructing the transfer of urgent medical cases for treatment outside Gaza, in the latest extension of its policy of collective punishment of Palestinians.

The death toll climbed through yesterday as Israeli troops targeted Palestinian militants who fired rockets and mortar shells into Israel. The operation follows last week's warning by Israel's deputy defence minister, Matan Vilnai, that a 'holocaust' would be unleashed on Gaza if rocket fire was not halted.

Last night, the US called for an end to the violence and said it regretted the loss of life in the Gaza Strip. 'There is a clear distinction between terrorist rocket attacks that target civilians and action in self defence,' White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said. As the number of fatalities rose, Palestinian leaders threatened to call off talks with Israel.'

full report at The Observer, Sunday March 2 2008

Peace - don't you think Hamas wants a cease fire?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:57 PM

Emma, that still leaves unanswered why Hamas doesn't stop the rocket attacks. There are wheels within wheels there, and Israel is just one of those wheels. Various factions connected with groups who have other than the best interests of Palestinians at the heart of their efforts--loosely called terrorist--have used the scenario you describe to rearm. We know that to be true. So tell me, if you were an Israeli, would you allow that to happen? Someone's gotta give first, and I don't think it will be Israel--not without some serious guarantees.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:54 PM

In a situation where one of the belligerents has offered to negotiate a cease-fire, the choice is clear. It is legal to negotiate a cease-fire, but it is a war crime to use collective punishment as a way to avoid having to negotiate.

Hamas has offered to negotiate a cease-fire. Israel has refused and is instead using collective punishment for the purpose of trying to avoid negotiations. Israel is using collective punishment of a civilian population as a kind of defacto negotiation. This is a war crime.

Even when Hamas was unilaterally engaging in a year long cease-fire, Israel did not stop its bombing of Gaza. Hamas has every reason, based on past experience, to expect that if it stopped firing rockets into Israel right now, Israel would not stop bombing Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:49 PM

Peace, this is quoted from The Christian Science Monitor in April this year and outlines the 'cease fire' offer

'The proposal Hamas put forward on Thursday could be extended to a year-long agreement.

Al-Zahar said other Palestinian factions, including Islamic Jihad and groups based in Damascus, had preliminarily approved the offer.

"The key condition for this ceasefire is that Israel should re-open all the crossings ... to lift the embargo on the Palestinian people"

Ghazi Hamad, a Hamas spokesman, told Al Jazeera that it would aim to begin improving the situation in Gaza first, and then expand to the West Bank as well.

He said: "I think the key condition for this ceasefire is that Israel should re-open all the crossings [into Gaza], especially the Rafah crossing, in order to allow people and goods to move in and out and to lift the embargo on the Palestinian people.

Israel rejected a cease-fire offer from the Palestinian group Hamas as a humanitarian aid crisis erupting in the Gaza Strip threatened wider instability.

The crisis in the troubled Palestinian territory deepened as President Bush, meeting with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in Washington, offered assurances that a two-state deal is possible before he leaves office in January.'

If Isreal HAD been able to stop the rocket launches by military tactics alone I'm sure it would have done so, the problem is that the 'seige' of one and a half million men women and children behind a wall of shame is the method that they are trying.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:45 PM

True. But it leaves the problem of the rocket attacks. And Hamas is doing little to stop that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:40 PM

The blockade of Gaza targets civilians. It isn't keeping the rockets out of Israel. It only keeps civilians in and food and other resources that allow civilians to remain alive out. And cutting off power, fuel, and water supplies also targets civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:27 PM

If I accept that post as entirely true, Emma, then it is a sword that cuts two ways. Hamas has said it is trying to stop these attacks. Surely if the Israeli military could stop the rocket attacks, then Hamas could also, no? Yet that doesn't happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:21 PM

Guest 'Arnie' whoever you are....
you asked, 'Do you believe it is Israeli policy to attack civilians'

Well it certainly is the 'policy' to reduce the life behind the Aparheid Wall to such unacceptable and sub human levals that well respected independent organizations and Jewish peace activists refer to it as the war crime of 'collective punishment'

may I repeat what I posted earlier

'In February Isreali deputy defence minister Matan Vilna threatened Gaza with "they will bring upon themselves a bigger 'shoah'* because we will use all our might to defend ourselves"'

*the word "shoah" is rarely used in Israel beyond discussions of the Nazi Holocaust of the Jews

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 29 May 08 - 04:57 PM

The reason given for the starving and freezing of one and a half million human beings, crowded into a territory of 365 square kilometers, is the continued shooting at the town of Sderot and the adjoining villages.

That is a well-chosen reason.
It unites the primitive and poor parts of the Israeli public.
It blunts the criticism of the UN and the governments throughout the world, who might otherwise have spoken out against a collective punishment that is, undoubtedly, a war crime under international law.

A clear picture is presented to the world: the Hamas 'terror regime' in Gaza launches missiles at innocent Israeli civilians. No government in the world can tolerate the bombardment of its citizens from across the border.
The Israeli military has not found a military answer to the Qassam missiles.
Therefore there is no other way than to exert such strong pressure on the Gaza population as to make them rise up against Hamas and compel them to stop the missiles.

The Israeli government decided to cause massive suffering of the civilian population in order to get them to pressure Hamas but the population unites behind Hamas and accuses Mahmoud Abbas of cooperation with the enemy.
A mother who has no food for her children does not curse Ismail Haniyeh, she curses Olmert, Abbas and Mubarak.

SO WHAT to do? After all, it is impossible to tolerate the suffering of the inhabitants of Sderot, who are under constant fire.

What is being hidden from the embittered public is that the launching of the Qassams could be stopped tomorrow morning.

Almosy a year ago Hamas proposed a cease-fire. It repeated the offer in January this year.

In order to make such a deal, we must speak with Hamas, directly or indirectly. And this is precisely what the government refuses to do.

In simple and blunt words: the government sacrifices the fate of the Sderot population on the altar of a hopeless principle. It is more important for the government to boycott Hamas - because it is now the spearhead of Palestinian resistance - than to put an end to the suffering of Sderot. All the media cooperate with this pretence.


The brutal blockade was a war crime. And worse: it was a stupid blunder


From the writing of Uri Avnery
a German-born Israeli journalist, left-wing peace activist, and former Knesset member, who was originally a member of the right-wing Revisionist Zionist movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 29 May 08 - 04:20 PM

"When Israel targets the civilian population of Gaza (which it is doing)"
Israel says they actively target militants, not civilians but civilians do die often in these attacks which occur in populated areas. When this happens you often hear accusations of Israeli massacres from the Palestinian side of it's publicity, but they neglect to mention who was really targeted and the reasons for behind it. Do you believe it is Israeli policy to attack civilians and do you consider militants innocent civilians?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 04:11 PM

If indeed the Israelis said this, then they have blundered even more than they did in the recent war with Lebanon. As to their leader's 'corruption', I still want to know where Arafat's $300,000,000 came from and then went. I thought that money belonged to the Palestinian people.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 04:01 PM

When Israel targets the civilian population of Gaza (which it is doing) as a way of trying to make Hamas change its behavior, it is engaging in collective punishment, which is a war crime. It is illegal under international law for governments of countries to use civilian populations as a way of trying to control the behavior of the governments of other countries (or occupied areas, as the case may be).

It is a war crime for Israel to punish the civilian population of Gaza as a way of trying to control the behavior of Hamas. It is also a war crime for Israel to say that it will not stop punishing the civilian population of Gaza until Hamas accedes to its demands.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 29 May 08 - 03:59 PM

What is it about the Israeli leader being a petty corrupt crook that you disagree with?
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 29 May 08 - 03:57 PM

Consider this too: Hamas could be actually be encouraging militant attacks resulting in Palestinian casualties. Why - because they know full well that Israel must retaliate, instead of just being sitting ducks and appearing weak in the face of their enemies. When Israel strikes back and innocent people die, Hamas actually may want this to occur to further their cause for more sympathy to use as propaganda in the world against the evil Zionist Entity and garner legitimacy. The more violence that they can provoke from the Israelis by attacking them relentlessly the better Hamas looks like a defender.
The danger in this is eventually Israel could strike in all out war.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 29 May 08 - 03:41 PM

Once again - to end the boarder blockade Hamas holds supreme power in Gaza and certain things need to happen. things like: recognize Israeli existence rights, outlaw and cease militant rocket and suicide attacks into Israel, stop smuggling arms into Gaza when boarders are open ( or closed ). None of these appear to be acceptable at all for Hamas to overcome - things which could lead to the better welfare of their civilians and reconciliation.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:45 PM

Holding civilian populations responsible for what their governments do is collective punishment, which is a war crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:41 PM

May I humbly suggest that "Guest,Hugo" be ignored completely? That way he'll get bored and fu#k off.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:40 PM

Israel's blocking of all fuel supplies to Gaza was condemned as COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT* earlier this year as Amnesty International warned of an emerging public health emergency in the territory.

Amnesty International Middle East and North Africa programme director Malcolm Smart said ....

"The rocket attacks should cease, and immediately, but the entire population of Gaza should not be put at risk to bring this about."

"More than 40 seriously ill patients have died since the Israeli authorities closed Gaza's borders, so denying them access to hospital treatment abroad, but now the entire Gaza population is being put at risk as electricity and fuel supplies run out.

"This action appears calculated to make an already dire humanitarian situation worse, one in which the most vulnerable - the sick, the elderly, women and children - will bear the brunt, not the men of violence who carry out attacks against Israel.

'Even crucial aid is not allowed to reach those that need it most in Gaza. These measures must be stopped and the passage of aid, fuel and electricity and other basic necessities must be allowed to resume immediately."


*'Collective punishment is the punishment of a group of people as a result of the behaviour of one or more other individuals or groups. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions. Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by resistance movements.' Wikipedia


While Israel is reluctant to admit the effects of its blockade, it makes no bones about what the siege is intended to achieve: it is designed to pressure Hamas into putting a stop to the rocket attacks being launched against Israel from within Palestinian territory.

Israel has a right to attempt to stop the attacks on its civilian population, but not by any means.

International law specifically forbids collective punishment of occupied populations. The Geneva Conventions stipulate that occupying powers have an obligation to supply utilities such as water and power to occupied populations.

Israel has attempted to get around this by arguing that it is no longer bound by the law governing the administration of occupied territories because it withdrew its troops from Gaza in 2005.
But that is thoroughly unconvincing.

Israel still controls Gaza's borders, airspace and territorial waters. It may have begun referring to the Strip as a "hostile entity", but this is plainly an area still under Israeli control.


'Israel is justified in taking the rocket attacks seriously. But collective punishment of 1.5 million Gazans is no way to deal with the threat.
All this blockage will do is drive more Gazans into the arms of militants and entrench a hatred of Israel among them. Rather than making Israel safer, it will merely expose her to greater danger.'
The Independent January 2008

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:40 PM

"but with Zionism a racist, violent and expansionary creed it ain't gonna happen."

That is crap and you are just shit stirring. Bugger off, "Guest, Hugo".

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:35 PM

It would be good to think that the violence from both sides could stop if men of good will could come to the fore.....but with Zionism a racist, violent and expansionary creed it ain't gonna happen.

Israel has been invading ,threatening and humiliating its neighbours for so long I doubt that things can change in the forseeable future.

It has also stained its reputation by its savage attacks on the Palestinian people whether they are in Gaza,the illegally occupied West Bank or in refugee camps.
This week it has emerged that gangs of Israeli youngsters have been assaulting Palestinian teenagers and taxi drivers in Jerusalem in the most random of ways and these attacks have been encouraged by senior figures from their religious community [see Haaretz for the horrible details ].

And to top it all off the leader of Israel stands accused of being a petty corrupt crook [ he is already a war criminal for the attack on the civilian population of Lebanon ].
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:33 PM

"I wonder if there are any people who are arguing on behalf of Israel who would say the same."

You got my vote on that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:32 PM

"Everything Israel is doing in and to Gaza is collective punishment".

Gazans did vote for Hamas who then later took over complete power in a total coup. Certain other armed militants fire rockets into Israel hoping to hit civilian targets almost on a daily basis are regarded as perfectly legal and acceptable in their new regime. Unfortunately they are all reeling in the consequences of all of this. Only Hamas now holds the power to move forwards in Gaza towards peace and deal somehow with Israel's real concerns to normalize relations, and if they do not use that power positively in that respect, it appears that the average lives of Palestinian Gazans will continue to suffer economically and otherwise, and it's a terribly dangerous and tragic situation for them. Recognizing the right of Israel's existence itself is THE major stumbling block - without at least that tell me why Israel has any incentive in which to deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:31 PM

When war crimes are committed, the people who are committing them are the ones who are supposed to be held responsible (in this case, that would be the government of Israel and Hamas), not the civilian population. I would support both the government of Israel and Hamas being taken before war crimes tribunals. I wonder if there are any people who are arguing on behalf of Israel who would say the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 01:54 PM

Equally, everything Hezbollah is doing to Israel is a war crime. If neither side gives or bends, it will be status quo for lots longer. Takes two to tango.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 01:18 PM

Everything Israel is doing in and to Gaza is collective punishment, which is a war crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,david
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:47 PM

PALESTINE LIVES!
A major open air exhibition and festival of Palestinian art,music and poetry will take place at Albert Square,Manchester on saturday afternoon,the 6th June and all are welcome to find out more about Palestinian life and culture.
Speakers will include Palestinians living in Britain and from Gaza together with speakers from the Palestine Solidarity Campaign.All welcome.Starts at one oclock.
david

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:44 PM

Halt the rocket attacks and there would be no need for the 'incursions'.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:33 PM

AN ABOMINATION!
Now ,now Arnie.....lets not get weasel worded about what the Israeli military is doing in Gaza.

1 It has demolished hundreds if not thousands of houses in Rafah and Khan Yunis both parts of Gaza.

2 It controls all entry and exit points in Gaza and has turned the city into what Israeli historian Ilan Pappe calls a" mega prison" for over a million people.

3 It has sent bulldozers into Gaza to uproot orchards and fields and destroy roads.

4 It has destroyed Gaza's only power station.

5 It has launched many air and land and sea attacks on Gaza killing hundreds [including whole family groups ] and destroying apartment blocks,houses,offices and other buildings.

6 It has allowed over a hundred ill Gazan citizens to die by refusing to allow them out of Gaza.
7
It has shelled picnicers on the beach.

8 It has cut food ,fuel and water into Gaza which is a form of collective punishment and a crime against International Law.

8 It has waged war on the children of Gaza ..starving them, blowing them up in their homes and on the beach and on the streets.

9 It has allowed a tide of sewage to flow through Gaza having destroyed the basic health infrastructure of the city.This is a form of biological warfare against civilians and children.

As Archbishop Tutu ,that splendid humanitarian has said, the behaviour of Israel towards Gaza has been an "abomination".How right he is!
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 29 May 08 - 09:55 AM

"The scope of Israel's ongoing control over major aspects of life in Gaza imposes on it responsibility for the safety and welfare of the residents there, in accordance with the laws of occupation specified in the Hague and Geneva Conventions."

But Israel withdrew from occupying Gaza. They are not occupiers of that territory- Hamas is. Now they are at war with militants in order to defend themselves and their own citizens inside Israel. What about the welfare of the Israeli citizens?


"How can people claima ny form of divine intervention in the ownership of the Holy Land?"

Like I wrote previously Albert, the Jewish religion is centered on the divine and the Holy Land, as is the Muslim religion which has Jerusalem as one it's holiest places, amongst Mecca etc. You may not like that, but many millions of people believe this.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 09:53 AM

While we're talking about corruption in the Israeli government, may I humbly request the whereabouts of $300,000,000 last seen with Arafat? Remember, streets may seem to be one way, but they can be driven on in either direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:37 AM

I can't see Olmert lasting much longer as Israeli leader.This arch Zionist is turning out to be just another corrupt crook fascinted by shiny pens and bags of unsourced money.How can people claima ny form of divine intervention in the ownership of the Holy Land?
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:40 AM

Also, the UN observer in the video I posted said that the armored Israeli tractors in the DMZ were "in breach of the truce".

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:25 AM

The Israeli bombing attack on the Palestinian village of Samua in the West Bank (just prior to the 1967 war) was an attack on civilians. The UN observer in the video I posted a link to said that he and the other UN observers had been patrolling that area for a year and there were no weapons and no terrorists in that village for Israel to have been targeting.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 08 - 11:32 PM

Hezbollah was formed in response to Israeli invasion and bombing of southern Lebanon...

The 1978 Operation Litani provided a clear lesson in the rules of unintended consequences. It was a swift success militarily; Israeli forces pushed across the border and moved about 20 miles north to the Litani River without serious opposition from primarily ragtag Palestinian defenders. They weren't native to the area or fully familiar with it -- they'd moved to it in the early 1970s to escape a crackdown in Jordan.

Under U.S. and other international pressure, the Israeli forces soon withdrew. But the Israeli defense minister at the time, Ezer Weizman, who later became president, ordered relentless bombing of the Lebanese border hills to drive out the civilian population. U.S. officials complained of civilian casualties, but the attacks continued.

The idea, Israeli officials explained, was to create a free-fire zone where it could be assumed that anybody moving around was a Palestinian guerrilla and a fair target for Israeli warplanes or artillery fire. The result over the next year, however, was a long list of civilian deaths -- farmers carrying tobacco crops to market, families picnicking on jagged hillsides and villagers caught in their homes when stray bombs landed.

Eventually, increasing numbers gave up and fled to Beirut. These families, most of them Shiite Muslims, took up residence in what was then undeveloped land between southern Beirut and the international airport -- and now is the teeming Shiite suburb known as the Dahiya.

Its exploding young population, sons of those chased from southern homes, became the base of a new radical organization born several years later. Inspired by the 1979 Iranian revolution, it eventually took the name Hezbollah, or Party of God.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/21/AR2006072101653.html?sub=AR

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:51 PM

"Serfs they (the Jews) were in the lands of the Diaspora, and suddenly they find themselves in freedom (in Palestine); and this change has awakened in them an inclination to despotism. They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause, and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination."

--Zionist writer AhadHa'am


"There can be only one National Home in Palestine, and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership between Jews and Arabs, but a Jewish preponderance as soon as the numbers of the race are sufficiently increased."

--Dr. Eder (member of the Zionist commission)


"Politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside"

--David Ben-Gurion


"After we become a strong force, as a resultof the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine."

--David Ben-Gurion


"The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. Thesignature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever."


--Menachem Begin


Discussing 1948:

"In Jerusalem, as elsewhere, we were the first to pass from the defensive to the offensive…Arabs began to flee in terror…Hagana was carrying out successful attacks on other fronts, while all the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through Haifa like a knife through butter"

--Menahem Begin


"Before the end of the mandate and, therefore before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948...In contrast, the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the partition resolution."

--Henry Cattan, (Palestine, The Arabs and Israel)


"It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country...The Zionist enterprise so far...has been fine and good in its own time, and could do with 'land buying' - but this will not bring about the State of Israel; that must come all at once, in the manner of a Salvation (this is the secret of the Messianic idea); and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer them all; except maybe for Bethlehem, Nazareth and Old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village, not a single tribe"

--Joseph Weitz, director, Jewish National Land Fund 12/19/1940


"The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put."

--Erskine Childers, British researcher


On May 12, 1949, Israel signed a joint protocol in which it agreed to repatriate Arab refugees.

"My main purpose was to begin to undermine the protocol of 12 May, which we had signed only under duress of our struggle for admission to the U.N. Refusal to sign would...have immediately been reported to the Secretary-General and the various governments."

--Walter Eytan, head of israeli delegation to the UN


Preamble to the UN resolution admitting Israel to the United Nations includes this passage...

"Recalling its resolution of 29 November 1947 (on partition) and 11 December 1948 (on reparation and compensation), and taking note of the declarations and explanations made by the representative of the Government of Israel before the ad hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of the said resolutions, the General Assembly...decides to admit Israel into membership in the United Nations."


"In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him."

--Menahem Begin


"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it."

--Ytzhak Rabin


"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today. But the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them."

--David Ben-Gurion, 1936


It was not legal to settle in the Israeli/Syrian DMZ. The Arab Syrian farmers had been removed from the DMZ by the UN so that the DMZ would be a neutral zone.

"We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was"

--Moshe Dayan New York Times, May 11, 1997


"The main danger which Israel, as a 'Jewish state', poses to its own people, to other Jews and to its neighbors, is its ideologically motivated pursuit of territorial expansion and the inevitable series of wars resulting from this aim...No zionist politician has ever repudiated Ben-Gurion's idea that Israeli policies must be based (within the limits of practical considerations) on the restoration of Biblical borders as the borders of the Jewish state."

--Israeli professor, Israel Shahak


"(Israel) must see the sword as the main, if not the only, instrument with which to keep its morale high and to retain its moral tension. Toward this end it may, no - it must - invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation-and-revenge...And above all - let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries, so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space."

--Moshe Dayan


Jews for Justice...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/pdf/OriginoftheArab-IsraeliConflict.pdf


Theodor Meron, the Israeli Foreign Ministry's legal adviser at the time of the 1967 war told the government of Israel that it would be illegal to build Jewish settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories, and he still holds that opinion today...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/secret-memo-shows-israel-knew-six-day-war-was-illegal-450410.html

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:13 PM

I've been TRYING to follow all this (it ain't easy) but I'm with Peace here too! OK, WHO has imposed this on Carol? It is NOT fair.