BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:58 PM

Carol and I have had 'fights' too but I'm with Peace here!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:54 PM

Gotta ask everyone--either faction, middle-of-the roaders and the one or two completely reasonable people like me: NO one directs any antagonism at/toward Carol until such time as she has the right of reply. That sound OK by y'all? If your answer is no, then message me so I can send a rude reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:50 PM

Carol, I just sent you a pm. You and I get into nastier fights than any other people on Mudcat. AND, you and I both know it. However, I am NOT happy with this.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:46 PM

To b.b.

The scope of Israel's ongoing control over major aspects of life in Gaza imposes on it responsibility for the safety and welfare of the residents there, in accordance with the laws of occupation specified in the Hague and Geneva Conventions. Regardless of the questions of the legal status of the Gaza Strip, international humanitarian law and international human rights law require Israel to protect civilians in time of armed conflict, safeguard wounded and sick persons, prevent deterioration in the humanitarian situation, and enable the shipment of necessary medicines and provision of an adequate standard of heal

Source: Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories
Date: 15 May 2008


Although Israel withdrew its settlers from Gaza three years ago, it maintains control of the sea, the airspace and all the crossings for people and goods with Israel AND with Egypt.
Under an agreement arranged by the US in late 2005, Israel is committed to opening the crossings to allow trade in and out of Gaza. However, since Hamas democratically consolidated its control of Gaza Israel has said the crossings must remain closed for security reasons.

The crossings are seen as hated symbols of Israeli authority and are frequent targets.

John Ging, Gaza director of the U.N. organization in charge of Palestinian refugees, said he hoped the recent attack, which ripped an 90-yard hole in the wall killing the truck driver would not hurt efforts to ease the blockade of Gaza, which he said has forced 1.1 million of Gaza's 1.4 million people to rely on daily food handouts from the U.N. just to survive.



In reply to Peace…

The breaching of the Apartheid Wall by a suicide bomber is said to bear the hallmarks of Islamic Jihad, one of two groups claiming joint responsibility for the bombing at the Erez crossing,
Abu Ahmad, a spokesman for Islamic Jihad said the attack was meant to "send a message" to Israel that if it didn't accept a truce, "Gaza is not going to be a place where you will enjoy stability."

Hamas has tried to distance itself from these remarks — aware that too close an association is not likely to help the Palestinian cause and that global jihadists have a stake in undermining any cease-fire deal with Israel.

Weapons are believed to be brought into Gaza through smuggling tunnels under the Gaza-Egypt border.

I'm not being 'pro' anyone here - just anti injustice!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:42 PM

I am not permitted to respond directly to any posters. I will post information when I get it if I think it's pertinent to the discussion in this thread. But if I respond directly to any posters, I will be barred from posting in the Mudcat. If anyone expects a response from me and doesn't get one, this is why.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:38 PM

CarolC

Perhaps you might address my wuestion:

"the appalling conditions behind the Apartheid Wall in Gaza which remain undisputed facts"


Hamas, the government of Gaza, has chosen to

1. engage in war against Israel
2. obtain weapons rather than food and medicine
3. Depend on Israel , while it has a border with Egypt, for supplies.
4. attack the very border crossings and flow of supplies that the population needs.

Why is it not responsible for those conditions?


One has only to look at how the Palestinian leadership has viewed the issue of Israel's borders and Jewish expulsion, and to look at how the Palestinian government has conducted itself in regard to Gaza, and the results of this conduct.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:32 PM

In order to know Israel's plan for Gaza, one has only to look at how the Zionist leadership has viewed the issue of Israel's borders and Arab expulsion, and to look at how the Israeli government has conducted itself in regard to Gaza, and the results of this conduct.

Supposing, for example, we were obliged to clear a country of wild beasts, we would not set about the task in the fashion of Europeans of the fifth century. We would not take spear and lance and go out singly in pursuit of bears; we would organise a large and active hunting party, drive the animals together, and throw a melinite bomb into their midst

--Theodore Hertzl, The Jewish State

(The area of the Jewish State extends) "From the Brook of Egypt (the Nile) to the Euphrates."

--Theodore Hertzl, Complete Diaries, Vol II p 711

"The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt up to the Euphrates, it includes parts of Syria and Lebanon."

Rabbi Fischmann, (member, Jewish Agency for Palestine) testimony before UN, 7/9/1947


Plan Dalet:

http://imeu.net/news/article008084.shtml

"I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it."

--David Ben-Gurion

This is the kind of thing that is beign done to Palestinians to make them leave occupied Palestine. It's in the West Bank, not Gaza, but it is one aspect of the plan for the ultimate removal of all Palestinians from occupied Palestine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djBPRcpBOv0&feature=related

Israel supported settlements in Gaza up until a couple of years ago. Settlements are a means of taking land from the local population. Since the settlements were removed, Israel has instituted policies that make it impossible to live in Gaza. With these policies, Gaza is slowly emptied of its Palestinians. This policy is independent of any actions taken by the Palestinians in Gaza. Even during the year long unilateral cease fire that Hamas conducted, Israel's policy towards Gaza did not change. Israel's actions in Gaza do not protect it from anything, and they are not for the purpose of protecting Israel from attack. They only serve to make it impossible for Gazans to remain in Gaza. Israel has no intention of allowing Palestinians to remain in Gaza.

This is one of the documents that outline Israel's long term plans for the Middle East. This document is supported by other documents from other sources, such as the diary of Moshe Sharrett, and the position paper, A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm from a US/Israeli think tank.

http://crashrecovery.org/fischer/article0005345.html

A Clean Break:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1438.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 03:12 PM

Part of the problem is that the Palestinians have been used as a pawn by the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah and assorted posters here. They are people, and constant bitching about Israel--while the Israeli government deserves some of it--does nothing to help. NONE of the Arab neighbours has got off its arse to help at all, either. And PLEASE, don't some vacuous idiot post that they send in food or medicine. They also send in guns and suicide bombers, just to keep things roiling.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:58 PM

After the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict, Israel became home to more than 520,000 Arab Jews who became refugees from their homes.


"the appalling conditions behind the Apartheid Wall in Gaza which remain undisputed facts"


Agreed- BUT you fail to show why Hamas, who has chosen to

1. engage in war against Israel
2. Choses to obtain weapons rather than food and medicine
3. Depend on Israel , while it has a border with Egypt, for supplies.
4. attack the very border crossings and flow of supplies that the population needs.

is not responsible for those conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:37 PM

After the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict, Lebanon became home to more than 110,000 Palestinian refugees from their homes in present day Israel
By 1975, they numbered more than 300,000, effectively creating an unofficial state-within-a-state in South Lebanon

'Hezbollah was conceived in 1982 by a group of clerics after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. It was formed primarily to offer resistance to the Israeli occupation.
Inspired by the success of the Iranian Revolution, the party also dreamt of transforming Lebanon's multi-confessional state into an Iranian-style Islamic state. Although this idea was abandoned and the party today is a well-structured political organisation with members of parliament.'

From the BBC News site a few days ago

Six countries officially list Hezbollah or its security arm as a terrorist organization: the United States, the United Kingdom, Israel, Canada, the Netherlands, and Australia, though its designation as such is not unanimous.


However my contributions to this discussion have not been about the Lebanese situation or Hezbollah but rather about the appalling conditions behind the Apartheid Wall in Gaza which remain undisputed facts.

In the January 25 2006 democratic elections in Gaza Hamas won a landslide victory.

Although in the media Hamas tends to be identified with its military arm, Izzeddin al-Qassam, which is well known for its suicide attacks against Israeli targets, the organization's popularity in the Occupied Territories actually stems from its being seen as the voice of Palestinian dignity and the symbol of the defence of Palestinian rights at a time of unprecedented hardship, humiliation, and despair.

Most importantly, perhaps, Hamas acquired much of its political credit from its charity and social service networks. It built kindergartens and schools (that offer free meals for children), education centres for women, and youth and sports clubs. Its medical clinics provide subsidized treatment to the sick and the organization extends financial and technical assistance to those whose homes had been demolished as well as to refugees living in sub-standard conditions

In other words, Hamas was elected not only because it is considered an alternative to the corrupt Palestinian Authority, but also because Israel created the conditions that made it an indispensable social movement.

The claim that Hamasís popularity results from its social welfare network conceals the fact that Israel has produced a situation where there is desperate need for charity institutions. Accordingly, Israeli efforts to undermine the Palestinian Authority alongside its success in destroying the infrastructure of existence in the Occupied Territories has not only made Palestinian life miserable, but has empowered its most lethal adversary, the Hamas.

Starving Gaza while the Ramallah-based West Bank authority receives financial and political backing from Israel and its allies in the west has failed to shift Palestinian opinion in favour of President Mahmud Abbas and his prime minister, Salam Fayyad.

So, rather than heed the advice of the experts and fulfil the wish of his own public,(a poll published in the Israeli daily Ha'aretz in March this year suggested that 64% of Israelis favoured a negotiated truce with Hamas) Olmert has decided to go to war with the Gaza Strip


In February Isreali deputy defence minister Matan Vilna has threatened Gaza with "they will bring upon themselves a bigger 'shoah'* because we will use all our might to defend ourselves"

*the word "shoah" is rarely used in Israel beyond discussions of the Nazi Holocaust of the Jews

Remove the causes of violent protest and it may be possible to remove violent protest too.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:21 AM

Another part to the picture.

Israel/Lebanon: Hizbullah's attacks on northern Israel


Date Published: 14 September 2006

Categories: Middle East And North Africa, Middle East And North Africa

During the recent 34-day war between Hizbullah and Israel both sides committed serious violations of international humanitarian law. Amnesty International calls for a comprehensive, independent and impartial inquiry to be conducted by the UN into violations of international humanitarian law by both sides in the conflict. The inquiry should examine in particular the impact of this conflict on the civilian population, and should be undertaken with a view to holding individuals responsible for crimes under international law and ensuring that full reparation is provided to the victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:07 AM

http://www.standwithus.com/pdfs/flyers/UNAmbulance.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:02 AM

"Of course there are indiscriminate acts of violence on both sides!
That's why a lasting peace is imperative"

That is progress. May we hear about the indiscriminate acts perpetrated by Hezbollah?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:36 AM

The much delayed UN human rights council investigation into the shelling by the Israeli military of a Palestinian house which killed 18 members of a single family in Beit Hanoun is to start soon according to todays newspapers ; the Israeli government hascomplained that the council is politicised in its criticism of Israel.

Of course there are indiscriminate acts of violence on both sides!
That's why a lasting peace is imperative

Gee!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:23 AM

"It is also a fact that Gazan militants are exacerbating the problem by firing rockets at the crossing terminals which halts the little movement of goods that is taking place."


Gee!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:21 AM

Since Hamas wrested control of Gaza from Fatah and the Palestinian Authority in June 2007 Israel has reduced the flow of goods into Gaza to a bare minimum and stopped goods from leaving.

Gaza's residents depend entirely on Israel for their exports and imports. Israel controls all the crossing points between Gaza and Israel and has a veto on the operation of the Rafah crossing between Gaza and Egypt.

It is also a fact that Gazan militants are exacerbating the problem by firing rockets at the crossing terminals which halts the little movement of goods that is taking place.

However, a report by report by Gisha, an Israeli human rights organisation, concludes that the increase in poverty and dependency will only inevitably lead to a further radicalisation of Gaza's population

Sari Bashi, director of Gisha, said the impoverishment of Gaza was strengthening extremists at the expense of moderates. "Israel is attempting to achieve political objectives by exerting pressure on 1.4 million women, men and children, whose suffering is supposed to bring about the change it wants - toppling Hamas control in Gaza," she said.

"In reality, a policy of collective punishment is being imposed upon 1.4 million people, in violation of international humanitarian law and contradictory to Israel's interest. Destroying Gaza's economy only exacerbates dependence on extreme elements."

'In a further blow to the Gazan economy Unrwa and the UN Development Programme will announce today the suspension of all construction projects because Israel will not allow the import of cement. The projects are worth about $80m (£40m) and employ hundreds of people. The works include the construction of homes, health centres and sewage works..' The Guardian July 2007

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:10 AM

Abu El gheit Egyptian Minister of Foreign Affairs has described what happened on the border line with Gaza after floods of Gazans flew into the Egyptian territories, following knocking down of the fence-off iron wall as directly attributed to the closure of the Gaza Strip over the previous seven months, in which the Gaza's residents have suffered lack of essential supplies.

Prior to the Hamas takeover of Gaza in June 2007, when Hamas-linked forces routed Abbas-loyal security services, the Rafah crossing used to be run by the Abbas's elite forces 'presidential guards' and the Egyptian authorities, with help of about 70 European observers.

On June 17, Israel imposed a strict closure on the Gaza Strip, as the European observers quit the Rafah crossing terminal, leaving a vacuum.
Since then, the 1.5-million residents of the coastal region have been suffering from a lack of essential supplies.

Israeli media sources reported that Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, rejected the idea that the crossing be operated, while Hamas is holding sway in Gaza.

'In mid January 2008, Israel declared a total closure of Gaza's crossings and prevented entry of fuel supplies, medicine and food items, forcing the Gaza's sole power plant to shut down.'

International Middle East Media Center a collaboration between Palestinian and International journalists to provide independent media coverage of Israel-Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:03 AM

"Israel placed an economic blockade on Gaza in June 2007"

You seem to have neglected a small detail there Emma, like WHY they dd this.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:47 AM

So, when do we start to blame Israel for the mess after Katrina?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:45 AM

Feb 2, 2008 12:22 | Updated Feb 3, 2008 14:33
Egypt closes Rafah border
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH, YAAKOV KATZ, AP AND JPOST.COM STAFF

Egyptian troops closed the last breach in Egypt's frontier with the Gaza Strip on Sunday morning, witnesses and Hamas security officials said, bringing to an end a week and a half of free movement for Gazans.

The troops were allowing Gazans and Egyptians who remained on the wrong side of the border to cross back, the witnesses and officials said, but had stopped allowing any new cross-border movement.

...

The officials said that while Israel was not part of the talks on the closure of the border, the defense establishment was in favor of the Hamas declaration earlier Saturday that Gaza would receive fuel and electricity from Egypt instead of from Israel.

"This would be great," one defense official said. "We have no interest in continuing to supply them with anything and prefer that they get what they need from Egypt."

Egypt's decision to close the border came after government officials in Cairo held separate talks last week with Hamas and Fatah leaders. The talks ended in failure as both Palestinian movements stuck to their original positions, sources close to the two parties said.

Hamas rejected Fatah's demand to redeploy forces loyal to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas at the Rafah border crossing in accordance with a US-brokered agreement that was reached in 2005.

Hamas also rejected the return of European monitors to the terminal, insisting that the border should be controlled only by Palestinians and Egyptians. However, Muhammad Naser, a member of the Hamas delegation to the Cairo talks, said his movement would agree to the presence of international monitors at the border on condition that they live in the Gaza Strip or Egypt. He noted that the European Union monitors who were stationed at the border crossing until Hamas took over the Strip in June had lived in Israel.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1201867278614&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:40 AM

"Many Palestinian patients in the Gaza Strip have been unable to access health care and advanced medical treatment since 9 June 2007, when the Rafah crossing to Egypt was closed"


Who closed it, and why?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:38 AM

Many Palestinian patients in the Gaza Strip have been unable to access health care and advanced medical treatment since 9 June 2007, when the Rafah crossing to Egypt was closed.

The medical infrastructure in Gaza is not able to provide certain services to its residents, including many types of surgery, and the Palestinian ministry of health refers patients to hospitals in countries such as Egypt and Israel.

According to the World Health Organization (WHO), in 2003 some 7,844 cases were referred abroad, of which 62.5 percent were sent to Egypt for treatment via Rafah. Now, this option no longer exists.

"The WHO is concerned about access for patients who need to travel for treatment," said Mahmoud Daher from the WHO in Gaza.

WHO estimates that between 300-400 patients a month need to travel through Rafah for medical care.


While, food aid continues to arrive in Gaza, residents still face hardships.

The UN's World Food Program (WFP) said that although the situation had improved, daily basic consumption needs have not been met.

"The WFP remains extremely concerned about the stock of basic commodities in Gaza, and we continue to closely monitor the situation," said Kirstie Campbell, a spokeswoman for the agency.

Also, as Palestinians in Gaza remain unable to export their goods due to the border closures, people's purchasing power has diminished. Over 85 percent of the population lives below a poverty line set at US$2.41 a day.

This affects their ability to buy basic supplies such as drinking water, fuel and soap.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:31 AM

"the inhumanity that won't let ambulances reach the injured. "

The Israelis used to let ambulances through- until the Palestinians used several of them to bring in explosives and suicide bombers to kill Israeli civilians.



And why is it that the Palestinians don't try to go out the Egyptian border to Gaza, to seek medical help?

ANd why is it that the Palestinians can find ways to keep bringing in rockets to attack Israel with, but cannot bring in food, fuel, or water? Do you really think that Israel is blocking fuel and LETTING the rockets and explosives into Gaza???

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:19 AM

Desmond Tutu on 'Apartheid in the Holy Land'

'Israel will never get true security and safety through oppressing another people. A true peace can ultimately be built only on justice.

We condemn the violence of suicide bombers, and we condemn the corruption of young minds taught hatred; but we also condemn the violence of military incursions in the occupied lands, and the inhumanity that won't let ambulances reach the injured.

I have seen the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about

My heart aches. I say why are our memories so short. Have our Jewish sisters and brothers forgotten their humiliation? Have they forgotten the collective punishment, the home demolitions, in their own history so soon? Have they turned their backs on their profound and noble religious traditions?

My brother Naim Ateek has said what we used to say:

"I am not pro- this people or that.

I am pro-justice, pro-freedom. I am anti- injustice, anti-oppression"

But you know as well as I do that, somehow, the Israeli government is placed on a pedestal [in the US], and to criticise it is to be immediately dubbed anti-semitic , as if the Palestinians were not semitic'

From an address given at a conference on 'Ending the Occupation' held in Boston, Massachusetts.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Peace-bringer
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:12 AM

Fact is, there are 'facts' on BOTH sides, which are equally horrific to all of those involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:05 AM

Facts of (sub human) life

While Israel withdrew its troops and communities from Gaza in 2005, it remains the occupying power under international law, which entails responsibilities for the wellbeing of the civilian population.

Israel placed an economic blockade on Gaza in June 2007, following Hamas's takeover, but economic sanctions have been in place since Hamas were democratically elected to run the Palestinian Authority in January 2006

The decision to further cut fuel and electricity supplies was described by Palestinians and international agencies, including the UN, as collective punishment, which is illegal under international law.

Israel's sweeping blockade of basic necessities has reduced Gaza's population to a "subhuman existence," according to a senior UN official.

The World Bank estimated that poverty rates in Gaza stood at 67 percent in April 2008, with the UN suspending food aid for four days due to a lack of fuel for its delivery vehicles.
By these means, Israel has reduced the calorie intake of the Palestinians in Gaza, according to a UN report, to just 61 percent of the average daily requirement.

Lack of electricity has also drastically reduced drinkable water for the 70,000 Gazans who rely on wells using fuel pumps, while "60m liters of raw and partially treated sewage are being pumped straight into the sea every day," according to the Guardian newspaper.

Ban Ki-moon, the UN secretary general, said: "There are 1.4 million people in Gaza, including the old, the young and the sick, who are already suffering from the impact of prolonged closure.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Peace-bringer
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:48 AM

Did Amnesty International also 'slam' Palestine for teaching its children to become suicide bombers, Albert?

Youtube -Palestine - Today & Tomorrow

Child suicide bombers - Wiki

Yasser Arafat had much to answer for, behind his grinning smile. His legacy will sadly, be around for many years to come, unless the Palestinian people take matters into their own hands, and choose to live their lives in peace, with their children being taught that we are all brothers.

Israel too should be teaching her children exactly the same lesson.

Peace will never have a chance if childrens minds are filled with hatred. That hatred becomes so ingrained it will often last a lifetime, being handed down, yet again, to the next generation.

There are two sides to everything. And both these 'sides' are hurting, not only each other, but themselves. They can only survive by going 'forward' in peace, together. No more looking back, only looking forward.

This Circle of Hate MUST be broken, by both sides.

I'd suggest you contact Amnesty International, Albert, find out where they stand on this matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:19 AM

Amnesty Human Rights Report Slams Israel

An Amnesty International report on Human Rights across the world has slammed Israel for harming Palestinians,expoiting foreign workers and undermining human rights.

It says ,according to the Israeli news paper Haaretz that many innocent Palestinians civilians are languishing in Israeli prisons some without any trial.

In Gaza the report goes on to say that Israel has conducted operations which amount to collective punishment with fuel,food and water cut off as the siege tightens.

In addition Palestinian Gazans requiing urgent medical treatment outside the city have been refused permission to leave resulting in many of them dying.
source
Haaretz .com

Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,david
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:25 AM

I see in the papers today that the leader of Israel Olmert has been accused of taking cash bribes from an American businessman who is now testifying against him.
david

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:13 AM

That the same Sheeba Farms that were claimed and previously occupied by Syria CarolC?

French maps of the area from 1933 and 1945 show the land to be Syrian. Israel captured the land from Syria in 1967.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:47 AM

BTW, Hezbollah came from the Lebanese Civil War in the early 1980s (?). Why the hell you blame Israel for THAT is beyond me. Obviously beyond you, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:24 AM

That what THEY say!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:22 AM

Hezbollah was formed in response to Israel's occupation of Lebanon. It's purpose was to liberate Lebanon from that occupation. It succeeded in doing that (with the exception of Sheba farms).

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian epiphany
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:45 PM

My point is exactly that. I was wrong to lump the Gazans as "Hamas=Enemy" and not allow for the fact that, even there, not everyone is an enemy. I hope that I can get involved with a few of those entrepreneurs.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:32 PM

Well we all know that Israel is officially mum on their nuclear program, neither confirming nor denying...wink, wink.

Whether or not Vanunu has more information which can be used, Israel isn't taking chances with that traitor. IMNSHO he probably should be sleeping with the Rosenbergs, but no death penalty in Israel.

But what I really wonder is if Carter, in announcing the number of Nukes that various countries, including Israel, have comes from classified information he received as president (and which he was sworn to protect). I find that very, very problematic.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:21 PM

"It is worth noting that Israel will not allow nuclear inspectors into its Negev nuclear facility and will still not allow Morechai Vanunu to leave the country although he has not be inside a nuclear facility for over 20 years."

That conflates two things and the result is something that makes little sense. The Israelis are not keeping him because he was in a nuclear facility 20 years ago. Hell, if he had info to pass along to whoever, it would have been passed by now. Also, there is no reason FOR Israelis to allow nuclear inspectors into their facilities, imo.

Tell me, does Hezbollah allow inspections of its facilities?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian epiphany
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:00 PM

NOt knowing the product I do have to say that---just like here in the U S we should not lump people into a uniform group. Jews do not, for the most part, vote as a bloc and neither do women, African Americans, etc; Which means, to me, that Palestinians, as well are not a monolithic group.

As to the "oil rich" Arab nations---it is the leaders that enjoy the wealth and cater to the wealthy of all nations and damned be anyone else as they subjugate the poor who labor for them---from all nations.You just have to love the heartfelt belief in their religion---in their interpretation.

Many years ago I was on an airliner seated next to a person from one of the Emirates. He ordered a drink and I asked how that was since I thought alcohol was not allowed---her replied--we just go to the next country that does allow it--religion is for the masses in our part of the world.

We both had a drink and I toasted hypocrisy (silently).

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian epiphany
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:08 PM

EBarnacle - Palestinians are among the most educated and entrepreneurial of all the Arabs, those that had the gumption to leave the camps.

Subject: BS: Palestinian epiphany
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:50 PM

I was talking with a member of the Palestinian Observer mission to the UN the other day about a product I sell. I mentioned my discomfort about dealing with Hamas because I am Jewish. He pulled me up sharp [appropriately so] and said that the products will be used to benefit ALL of the Palestinian people, not just those on the West Bank.

The point is, if you treat a group as a unity, there is a chance they will all grow. If they become better educated and more generally prosperous, not just oil rich, there is a chance that all of the people in the region will get along.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:35 PM

Here's some info - from BBC.
By Kathryn Westcott
BBC News Online

In its early days, Hezbollah was close to a contingent of some 2000 Iranian Revolutionary guards, based in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley, which had been sent to Lebanon in 1982 to aid the resistance against Israel.
As Hezbollah escalated its guerrilla attacks on Israeli targets in southern Lebanon, its military aid from Iran increased.

The movement also adopted the tactic of taking Western hostages, through a number of freelance hostage taking cells: The Revolutionary Justice Organisation and the Organisation of the Oppressed Earth, which seized Terry Waite.

For many years, Hezbollah was synonymous with terror, suicide bombings and kidnappings. In 1983, militants who went on to join Hezbollah ranks carried out a suicide bombing attack that killed 241 US marines in Beirut.

Over the two decades, Hezbollah evolved into a movement with thousands of trained guerrillas, members of parliament and a dynamic welfare programme benefiting thousands of Lebanese
        
Hezbollah - or Party of God - emerged in Lebanon in the early 1980s and became the region's leading radical Islamic movement, determined to drive Israeli troops from Lebanon.

In May 2000 - due partly to the success of the party's military arm - one of its main aims was achieved. Israel's battered and bruised army was forced to end its two-decade occupation of the south.
Hezbollah now serves as an inspiration to Palestinian factions fighting to liberate occupied territory.

Hezbollah was conceived in 1982 by a group of clerics after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. It was formed primarily to offer resistance to the Israeli occupation.

Inspired by the success of the Iranian Revolution, the party also dreamt of transforming Lebanon's multi-confessional state into an Iranian-style Islamic state. Although this idea was abandoned and the party today is a well-structured political organisation with members of parliament.

Terror

Hezbollah's political rhetoric has centred on calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. Its definition of Israeli occupation has also encompassed the idea that the whole of Palestine is occupied Muslim land and it has argued that Israel has no right to exist.

Hezbollah's spiritual head Sheikh Fadlallah is close to Iran

The party was long supported by Iran, which provided it with arms and money.


The party has operated with neighbouring Syria's blessing - with the guerrilla war against being a card for Damascus to play in its own confrontation with Israel over the occupation of the Golan Heights.

Over the two decades, Hezbollah evolved into a movement with thousands of trained guerrillas, members of parliament and a dynamic welfare programme benefiting thousands of Lebanese.

Hezbollah proved to be a formidable fighting force
It was passionate, demanding of its members and devoted to furthering an Islamic way of life.

In the early days, its leaders imposed strict codes of Islamic behaviour on towns and villages in the south - a move that was not universally popular with the region's citizens.

But, despite the early history of coercion, the party emphasises that its Islamic vision should not be interpreted as an intention to impose an Islamic society on the Lebanese.

In recent years, Hezbollah has won considerable backing within Lebanon. Its social services programme was popular with the Shia community.

The group's successful hit-and-run guerrilla war on Israel's much-vaunted army assured it some support and a lot or respect from other religious communities.

While, the US listed the group as a terrorist organisation, the government in Beirut declared it a national resistance movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:06 PM

I don't accept for one moment that Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation.It is widely seen across Lebanon as a resistance force to the many Israeli attacks on that country.And of course it was very effective in fighting off the Iraeli military machine in 2006.

I would also point out that Israel still occupies Lebanese land at the disputed Shaba farms. This is an area of land claimed by Lebanon.
Israel has imprisoned many Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners for years often in illegal conditions.It also maintained a degrading prison at a place called [I think Khiam ] which was a byword for torture.This was run by Israeli allies but essentially at the behest of Israel itself. And has CaroleC has correctly pointed out it has continued to attack Lebanon in all kinds of ways.

For many years Israel has been slaughtering its way across the Middles East....shelling refugee camps, destroying Beirut several times, blowing up civilian apartment blocks, strafing fleeing car convoys of civilians and stealing land constantly from the Palestinian people.
Perhaps the Zionists on Mudcat have a different description for this but I think terrorism fits well. State terrorism.
Its doing it now in Gaza where it is waging war on around a million people most of whom are children or teenagers.
ALBERT

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:32 PM

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/07/1086460241534.html

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:01 PM

Fair enough, CarolC.

I'm not convinced yet that what you say is ever true.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:00 PM

"Most of the time I try to get it from Israeli Jews"
Show me where you got or who said "Israel has no intention of allowing any Palestinians to remain living in Gaza"

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:57 PM

I'm not convinced yet that what I said isn't true. I need to do some more looking around before I accept that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bankley
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:56 PM

hmmm, just wondering if anyone here has actually been to this area ... or maybe knows someone from there personally.... from either side of the fence....

just curious

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:50 PM

And YOU are the one claiming that Moslem sources are liars, whenever we point out anything they say that you do not want them to have said.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:49 PM

CarolC

But MY statement still stands:

YOUR statement

"It should be noted that Hezbollah didn't start firing rockets into Israel until after Israel had already started bombing Lebanon. Israel started the bombing in that war, not Hezbollah. "

is false and demonstratably not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:40 PM

I don't get my information from the Electronic Intifada for precisely the reason that has been illustrated here. The common attitude around here that "if it comes from Palestinians, it can't be true". So I get my information from other sources whenever possible. Most of the time I try to get it from Israeli Jews. However, I wonder how long it would take someone to cry, "anti-Semitism!" if anyone ever tried to suggest that "if it comes from Jews (or Israelis) it can't be true".

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:35 PM

I stand corrected, Wolfgang.


From your posting, I get the following rocket attacks prior to the Israeli bombings:



12 Jul 2006 - Hezbollah terrorists infiltrated into Israeli territory and attacked two IDF armored jeeps patrolling the border with Lebanon, killing three soldiers and kidnapping two. Ground forces entered Lebanon in the area of the attack. A large explosive device was detonated underneath an Israeli tank, killing all four of the tank crew. An eighth soldier was killed when IDF troops entered Lebanon to try to retrieve the bodies of the tank crew. Throughout the day, Hezbollah terror organization fired Katyusha rockets and mortar shells at Israel's northern borders' communities and IDF posts.


27 May 2006 - An IDF soldier was wounded when Katyushas were fired at an army base at Mt. Meron in the upper Galilee.

27 Dec 2005 - A branch of a Palestinian organization connected to Al-Qaida fired 6 Katyushas, damaging a house in Kiryat Shmona and a house in Metulla. In response, the IAF attacked a training base of the Popular Front, south of Beirut.

21 Nov 2005 - An attempt to kidnap an IDF soldier was foiled when paratroopers patrolling near Rajar village discerned a Hezbollah unit approaching. Private David Markovitz opened fire, killing all four. In a heavy attack of mortars and Katyusha rockets that ensued, nine soldiers and and two civilians were injured.

29 Jun 2005 - More than 20 mortars were fired from across the border. Cpl. Uzi Peretz of the Golani Brigade was killed and four soldiers wounded, including the unit's doctor. Fire was exchanged and helicopters and planes attacked five Hezbollah outposts in the Reches Ramim area.

24 Apr 2005 - Several explosive devices exploded near the Lebanese-Israeli border, in the Mount Dov area. Officials believe the devices were planted by Hezbollah, but this was not confirmed. No injuries were reported in the explosions.

7 Apr 2005 - Two Israeli-Arabs from the village of Rajar near the Israel-Lebanon border were kidnapped by Hezbollah operatives and held in captivity for four days. The men, identified as Muki Ben-Jamal and Nuef Maharj Ben-Ali, said they were interrogated by their captors who wanted information on Israel. They were later released. Israeli officials did not believe that any security information had been compromised.

9 Jan 2005 - An explosive device was detonated against an IDF patrol at Nahal Sion. One Israeli soldier was killed, and a UN officer was killed.

20 Jul 2004 - Hezbollah sniper fired at an IDF post in the western sector of the Israeli-Lebanese border. Two IDF soldiers were killed.

7 May 2004 - Fire in the Mt. Dov sector. IDF soldier Dennis Leminov was killed, and two other soldiers were severely wounded. The IDF returned fire.

19 Jan 2004 - An anti-tank missile was fired at IDF D9 while neutralizing explosive charges near Zari't. An IDF soldier, Yan Rotzenski, was killed and another soldier was severely wounded.

6 Oct 2003 - Staff Sgt. David Solomonov was killed when Hezbollah fired at an IDF force south of the =46atma Gate in the eastern sector. In addition, the Hezbollah fired missiles and rockets at an IDF post in the Reches Ramim area.

10 Aug 2003 - Haviv Dadon, 16, of Shlomi, was struck in the chest and killed by shrapnel from an anti-aircraft shell fired by Hezbollah terrorists in Lebanon. Four others were wounded.

20 Jul 2003 - Hezbollah snipers fired on an Israeli outpost near Chetula, killing two Israeli soldiers. The IDF retaliated with tank fire directed at a Hezbollah position, killing one operative manning the post. That night, there were multiple Israeli flights over Lebanon, two of which generated powerful sonic booms over Beirut.

7 May 2003 - Hezbollah attacked IDF positions in the Sheba' farms with heavy rocket, mortar, and small arms fire. One Israeli soldier was killed and five others were wounded in the attack. Lebanese authorities asserted that the Hezbollah firing had been preceded by an Israeli army foot patrol crossing the Blue Line.

5 May 2003 - A cycle of armed exchanges across the Blue Line began. Israel carried out more than 20 air sorties over the country. Subsequently, Hezbollah fired several anti-aircraft rounds with shrapnel landing inside Israel.

22 Mar 2003 - Hezbollah fired rockets and mortars at Israeli army positions in the Sheba' farms and adjacent areas. This attack followed eight incursions into Lebanese airspace by Israeli aircraft.