BS: False advertising by the RNC

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 07:02 PM

TIA:

I'm with you on this one. 4TH AND 26?????.... Oh, I had Philly out of that one. If I had been Green Bay, I'd have rushed just three people and played a two deep zone... I hate to see Philly win. Hate it...

My Redskins will beat them someday and I'll be dancin' out back in the woods...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 06:01 PM

Impressive ad.

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 05:43 PM

Here is the page with the winning ad.

I heard on NPR this morning that the Bush Administration is launching an investigation of O'Neill. Now how surprising is that?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: TIA
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 07:04 PM

Bobert, we couldn't turn away. 4th and 26 fer crissakes. 4TH AND 26!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 05:25 PM

I did turn away from the NFL playoffs to watch the segment on "60 Minutes" about the O'Neill book. I did think it strange that CBS decided to air this segment at the same time that 90% of white males were watching the fottball game, You'd think with such a big story that CBS would have found a more suitable time...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 04:45 PM

"This administration has given up the right to be believed on anything!"

This comment was made by Washington State 7th District Congressional Representative Jim McDermott in an address given in Seattle last night. He said this after detailing a long list of Bush administration lies, deceptions, and carefully timed news releases, including the O'Neill book and THIS article.

I attended this speech. DougR, our resident apologist for the Bush administration, twitted me for my willness to stand in line to hear McDermott, and my response to Doug, which includes several other things McDermott said, can be found HERE.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 03:54 PM

Edward Feser, much to my surprise, wrote back. HE argues that in many cases ads like the one on Move On and similar attacks are "blinded by hatred of Bush". I certainly agree with him there. I replied that a similar campaign of hate-filled rhetroic was levied against Clinton when he was president. It is curious why there is such deep polarization on the Bush issue and why such intense emotions are brought to bear. For my part it is generated by the constant sense of being lied to in a way which insults my intelligence. I think Bush is really short-sighted.

A

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 03:48 PM

"This war is a generational committment."

What does that mean in English? Which generation is she talking about? The one that does the fighting or the one that organises it and plotted it and creams off the profits from the contracts?

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 03:25 PM

To bring a musical note to this thread, one can address the current Bush administration by humming a line from the muscial (not Senator) Paul Simon: "Who do you think you're foolin'?"

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 02:50 PM

Currently listening to the radio. Discussion is about this very issue: Paul O'Neill's book. Some apologist for the Bush administration (can't recall his name, but he was introduced as a member of both the American Enterprise Institute and the Project for the New American Century) is going on about how the war with Iraq (begun by Bush the Elder) never ended, that Clinton, even though he continued to enforce no-fly zones, didn't have the guts to do what needed to be done (invade Iraq), and of course the Bush administration was talking about a planned invasion from "day one" because (now, get this!) he was merely continuing Clinton's (Clinton's!??) foreign policy.

He also quotes Condoleezza Rice: "This war is a generational committment."

These people are truly amazing!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 10:03 AM

So your suggestion, Doug, is that "former Secretary of The Treasury" Paul O'Neill, in revenge for having been fired, has now come out telling a load of lies about the man he worked for as President?

You can't think much of the ethical standards among senior public servants in the US Government, even when, like O'Neill, they are Republicans.

Here's the Daily Telegraph story - you might need to regsister to rad it.

There's one interesting aspect of the story that doesn't mention though(from the Guardian version - which doesn't need registering to access): Mr O'Neill served in the Nixon and Ford administrations before moving on to run the Alcoa aluminium corporation, where he dedicated himself to improving worker safety. He insists he continues to support the wider Republican cause but he is not going to be silenced. He declares: "I'm an old guy, and I'm rich. And there's nothing they can do to hurt me."

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 06:54 AM

Move On does not endorse any ads having to do with comparing Bush to Hitler. The fact that the RNC says that they do is an example of dirty politics by intimation in the worst tradition of Lee Atwater and Karl Rove. The idea that they endorse such ads is an abject lie and is being used in an underhanded way by the RNC.
-----

   Move On endorsed the ad by permitting it to be placed on their
   website.

-----
They are not distributing this on their website. Go to their website and look. You won't find it there.
-----

   I am glad Move On did the politically correct thing by removing it
   from their website after they got caught.

   The better thing would have been for them to remove the ad when it
   was submitted instead of waiting till they got caught.

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: TIA
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 12:36 AM

He says "...[Bush] is a blind man in a room full of deaf men..."

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: DougR
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 11:54 PM

Bobert: Read the new book that will soon hit the bookshelves with the principal contributor being former Secretary of The Treasury O'Neal. You will LOVE it! The fired Secretary fires back at Bush and you likely will turn cartwheels over what HE has to say. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 08:38 PM

Yo Doug,

I am bombarded 24/7 with your sides PR barage so I think under the equal time doctine you should read the book that discrobes how facsists allied to Hitler found their way into your party but I'll tell ya what....

....I'll read one of yer danged books if you'll read one of mine!

Deal?

I find it very strange that the RNC jumps in so quickly on a commercial submitted to and rejected by MOveOn.com that eludes to the similarities between Bush and Hitler. Coule it be that the RNC is hypersensitive to the similarities and wants to nip this in the bud before people actually get to the pont where they stand back and go, "Yeah, their do seem to be a lot of comparisions here! Hmmmm?"

Now we discover that Bush was Hell bent on attacking Iraq 3 danged days after taking office? And yhis after criticizing Clinton for using the US military in nation building during the campaign?

Now me and the Wes Ginny Slide Rule been workin' on this one and we're in agreement that Bush is both a liar and a man who gets his jollies outta sendin' *real* service people out to whack folks...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 07:12 PM

"Adolph" is an unusual spelling.

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: pdq
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 07:08 PM

Frank...if you have a beef, it is with Mr. Tobin who is clearly credited with the statement. I am an exterminator, not a writer. Mr. Tobin made his points well and he, as well as the other side, deserves to be heard.

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 06:47 PM

PDQ,

I think this statement mischaracterizes Move On.

"Its purpose was to encourage Americans to avoid thinking too much about the scandals associated with Bush's predecessor. MoveOn was eager for us to forget about Bill Clinton's flaws and to "move on" to other topics."

Move On has nothing to do with the Clinton administration. It's focus is on the here and now. The purpose is not about avoiding
thinking about Clinton's sex life. It's simply a matter of politics.
I think many confuse the issue of "vilifying" someone with being critical of their politics and how they discharge their elected duties.

I don't hate Bush. I can't because I don't know him personally. B ut I don't believe his is doing a good job and Move On and I agree on this issue. I don't consider this as hypocritical but maybe
reasonably critical. Clinton lied to the grand jury but Bush has done worse, lying to the American people. Clinton was responsible for sexually exploiting and intern (who in turn..as an intern...exploited him.) Bush however has cost the lives of our
servicemen and women in Iraq under false pretenses. The only WMD that will be discovered is in his administration as the Weapons of Mass Deception.

I think the following statement is too general but has an element of truth to it.

"One thing Clinton and Bush have in common is an ability to drive their opponents out of their minds. As many liberals have admitted, hate is not too strong a word to describe their antipathy to Bush — and it shows. The same was true for the way conservatives felt about Clinton."

I don't think that all liberals hate Bush. The element of truth is that this campaign (Dean) is fueled by anger. This may eclipse
the need for evaluating who would make a good President. I personally am not sold on Dean but I will vote for him if he becomes a front-runner because I am unhappy with Bush.

Here, I agree with this.

" Lambasting incumbents is what people in free countries are entitled to do. Tough criticisms, hard questions and heavy doses of satire and sarcasm are entirely appropriate in politics."

Fortunately there are ample doses of all of the above.


"The latest instance involves the posting on the MoveOn site of ads that compared the president to Adolph Hitler."

Now it is nowhere to be found on the Move On site. It was duly deleted. But you can find in in distribution on the RNC site which attempts to make political hay out of it and mislead the intent of Move On.

" After they came in for heavy criticism from such groups as the Anti-Defamation League, the group was at pains to point out that they hadn't actually endorsed the ads and quickly pulled them."

I'm not at all sure that this was the motivation for deleting them.
It may be that these ads did not represent Move On properly.

"In the 1960s, the pop culture of the day dumbed down the term "fascist" from a term that had a specific meaning rooted in historical fact to one that could describe just about anything objectionable."

Maybe and maybe not. Facist has to do with a totalitarian mindset that could be applied to an attempt to apply condign force to those who don't agree with them. John Ashcroft's attempt at the abrigement of freedom of speech and the right to lawful assembly might fall under this classification. The police actions in Miami might be a case in point.


"Now, for some on the far left, anyone to the right of say, Joe Lieberman, is considered fair game for comparisons to the Nazis. "

The problem with the left, near or far, is that they have not been able to agree on much of anything. The far right is of a similar lock-step unquestioning mindset for the most part. The term knee-jerk is more applicable to the far-right than the far-left.

"Rather than being considered beyond the pale, Hitler analogies are nowadays considered clever ripostes, especially among those who cannot control their distaste for Bush."

Not especially. It works both ways. There are plenty of neo-cons who have used the Hitler analogy liberally to characterize liberals. The idea that in a political election year one side is more apt to use the Hitler card than another is not really evident. I agree that it is overblown.

I don't think Hussein's analogy to Hitler works or bin Laden's for that matter. These are different "animals" with apologies to the animal world for the use of the term.

But Move On is a political entity. The organization is critical of the Bush Administration and I believe justifiably so. They don't endorse Hitler as a model for Bush but they do seek a redress for
the problems that this administration has caused.

These ads do not represent MOve On and the evidence for this is they are gone. Only the RNC keeps them alive.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 06:02 PM

Is Bush a facist?......Is the Pope a Catholic?....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: DougR
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 05:25 PM

Bobert: Methings you are again neglecting to take your prescribed medications.

Your offering the book you recommend to support your claim that Nazis were welcomed into GOP leadership positions after WW2 makes about as much sense as it would be for me to recommend, as resource material, the new book by Richard Pearle and his compadre (name escapes me at the moment)suggesting how George Bush should conduct foreign policy.

Incidentially, I've never heard of any of the men you mentioned.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 09:59 PM

Hey, as far as I'm concerned, equating Bush with Hitler is not at all out of line. There are so many comparisions to Bush and a 1937-38 Hitler that its unreal. Too bad the American people, who vote, are so ignorant to not see the parallels.

But, maybe seeing these ads, even if Move.on killed 'e, would get folks to think about the realities that the Bush guys have brought to waht used to be a democracy...

If the shoe fits.......

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 09:45 PM

By Jonathan Tobin


Furor over anti-Bush Web site shows the depths to which politics can sink


http://www.jewishworldreview.com | In the 1948 movie adapted from Howard Lindsay and Russell Crouse's Pulitzer Prize-winning play "State of the Union," a political consultant played by Adolfe Menjou set a character played by Katherine Hepburn straight about American politics.

When asked what was the difference was between the Democrats and his own Republicans, Menjou succinctly summed up the situation: "They're in, and we're out."

A lot about American politics has changed since then, but that little bit of wisdom remains intact.

There's no better indication of this than the furor over MoveOn.org, a highly publicized Web site/activist group dedicated to opposing the war in Iraq and vilifying the current occupant of the White House.

No scandal that can be remotely tied to George W. Bush and no bit of news that can be construed as proof that the war on terror is being lost — or shouldn't be fought at all — are omitted from the site.

But the name of the site reminds us that one's attitude toward the need to keep the fires of rabid partisan debate well-stoked depends on who's in office. MoveOn was, after all, founded in 1998. Its purpose was to encourage Americans to avoid thinking too much about the scandals associated with Bush's predecessor. MoveOn was eager for us to forget about Bill Clinton's flaws and to "move on" to other topics.

But if they are hypocrites, so, too, are Republicans, who talk about the bad taste of the anti-Bush crowd, but were willing to believe anything about Clinton, no matter how outlandish.

IT ISN'T BEANBAG
One thing Clinton and Bush have in common is an ability to drive their opponents out of their minds. As many liberals have admitted, hate is not too strong a word to describe their antipathy to Bush — and it shows. The same was true for the way conservatives felt about Clinton.

Democracy isn't beanbag. Lambasting incumbents is what people in free countries are entitled to do. Tough criticisms, hard questions and heavy doses of satire and sarcasm are entirely appropriate in politics.

But as was the case during the height of the right's Clintonmania, the willingness of some partisans to make unbelievably outrageous accusations about Bush is troubling.

The latest instance involves the posting on the MoveOn site of ads that compared the president to Adolph Hitler.

The two offensive pieces were entries in a contest the group was holding to determine which Bush-bashing diatribe was the best. After they came in for heavy criticism from such groups as the Anti-Defamation League, the group was at pains to point out that they hadn't actually endorsed the ads and quickly pulled them.

In the 1960s, the pop culture of the day dumbed down the term "fascist" from a term that had a specific meaning rooted in historical fact to one that could describe just about anything objectionable. Now, for some on the far left, anyone to the right of say, Joe Lieberman, is considered fair game for comparisons to the Nazis. Rather than being considered beyond the pale, Hitler analogies are nowadays considered clever ripostes, especially among those who cannot control their distaste for Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 06:54 PM

Two Bears,

No, there may not be any pix of Hitler there. But this was meant as a hypothetical statement. If there were it could be construed by this kind of logic that they endorsed it.

Move On does not endorse any ads having to do with comparing Bush to Hitler. The fact that the RNC says that they do is an example of dirty politics by intimation in the worst tradition of Lee Atwater and Karl Rove. The idea that they endorse such ads is an abject lie and is being used in an underhanded way by the RNC.

They are not distributing this on their website. Go to their website and look. You won't find it there.

You will find however the ads that won the contest and they are worth looking at and taking to heart.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 06:53 PM

1. The MoveOn ad is now on the RNC website (or at least it was 3 days ago).

2. The MoveOn ad in question contains pictures of Hitler.

3. Therefore there are pictures of Hitler on the RNC website.

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: Two_bears
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 06:42 PM

Two Bears, I'm sorry but you are mistaken. The ads found on the website were rejected inasmuch as this was a contest, not an endorsement.
-----

You are the one mistaken.

The ad was on the Move-On website, and they were distributing it via the web.


-----
With this logic, any pictures of Hitler found on the RNC website could be construed as a Republican endorsement of him.
-----

Are you aware of any such photos of Hitler on the RNC website? provide the evidence or stop defending the indefensible?

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 04:20 PM

As I mentioned earlier, MoveOn.org is gaining momentum because of this flap about unendorsed ads:

San Francisco Chronicle

MoveOn.org becomes anti-Bush online powerhouse



BETH FOUHY, Associated Press Writer

(01-10) 10:15 PST BERKELEY, Calif. (AP) --

Chances are, Democratic Party consultants won't take credit for the hardest-hitting anti-Bush ad to air on network TV this month. That honor will likely go to MoveOn.org, an online group that has become too potent for establishment politicians to ignore.

Years before Howard Dean's use of the Internet dazzled analysts and propelled him to the front of the 2004 Democratic presidential field, MoveOn paved the way, evolving in six short years from something of a cybergeek forum to arguably the largest and most forceful voice in digital-era politics.

Its members' angry opposition to President Bush's policies has coalesced into a force that includes a political action committee and fund-raising organization that has pledged to spend millions on anti-Bush TV ads.

In its latest campaign, MoveOn invited people to create their own anti-Bush ads. More than 1,500 entries were submitted, and hundreds of thousands of wired MoveOn members voted for the most effective. The 15 most popular will be judged Monday in New York, and the winning ad will air the same week President Bush gives his State of the Union address.

the rest is online.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 03:35 PM

"Kristallnacht" doesn't come across to me as a euphemism of any kind. If it was invented by the perpetrators,with that in mind, it turned against them, as so often happens. The contrast between what happened and what should be a beautiful word seems to bring the horror across even more powerfully.

It also carries the message of something broken which can never be repaired. The word almost makes you hear it and see it, once you've learnt what it refers to. "Reichspogromnacht" sounds bureaucratic, distanced, filed away.

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 01:42 PM

Wolfgang:

I never would have known that had you not spoken up! Thank you.

A

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 12:13 PM

This is but a small digression about the word Kristallnacht used twice in this thread and why many in Germany don't use it anymore, except some very old people and Neonazis.

'Reichskristallnacht' means 'imperial crystal night' and was the Nazi slang for the pogroms in 1938 (November 11). 'Crystal' was a mocking allusion to the shattered glass of the Jewish shops and houses. An allusion to shattered glass for a night in which dozens of Jews have been murdered and many more injured and harassed, and synagogues, shops and houses have been burned down is a euphemism of the worst kind. The association with this word was(is): Look how the Jews are raising hell about a bit of shattered glass.

All except the extreme right wing newspapers in Germany a couple of years ago (10 perhaps) have agreed to call it by a much better fitting name: Reichspogromnacht, i.e. 'imperial pogrom night'. It has taken close to 50 years to get rid of this Nazi euphemism but I think it is worth it.

I think it's fine if you keep in English the word you are used to for you don't have the belittling associations we have. But I thought you'd like to know why many of us don't use that word any more.

(As an aside, my personal favourite day for our National Holiday would be November 11. At this date the first German Republic has been proclaimed (1918), the first (large scale) Nazi pogrom against the Jews has been organised (1938), and the revolution in East Germany has seen the people dancing on the Wall (1989). All good and evil in one century of German history is captured in that date.)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 10:22 AM

Furthermore, the ad in question lost in the first round of votes and was not brought forward with the second round of finalists.

It was a concept in poor taste, but it was submitted, and MoveOn was holding a contest; and they saw no reason to act authoritarian and censor it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 10:04 AM

Two Bears, I'm sorry but you are mistaken. The ads found on the website were rejected inasmuch as this was a contest, not an endorsement.

With this logic, any pictures of Hitler found on the RNC website could be construed as a Republican endorsement of him.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: Two_bears
Date: 09 Jan 04 - 12:04 PM

There has been criticism leveled at Move On for distributing
TV spots depicting Bush and Hitler by association. This is false. These ads were rejected by Move On when submitted in a
-----

You are mistaken.

Move On WAS distributing that advertizement via their web site.

If the spot had been rejected as you claim; all they had to do was delete the file.

It was Move On's website, and THEY are the ones responsible for the web site content.

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 09 Jan 04 - 11:37 AM

Bobert,

Not just the Republican Party. People with past histories such as you describe made there way to lots of countries and lots of organisations.

The early space programmes of both the USA and the USSR would have been completely stuffed without them. Russia's mine and submarine programmes benefited greatly from German engineers and designers. The Russian Whisky Class submarine was basically a German Type XXI and for a long time was the mainstay of the Soviet submarine fleet. The 5th French Foreign Legion was almost made up entirely of ex-Waffen SS, in French Indo-China they gave Ho Chi Min a bloody good run for his money, damn near defeated him, until pressure from Russia and China brought public pressure to bear and caused the units disbandment.

Generally, hard working, gifted engineers, chemists, scientists, they proved themselves useful members of whatever society they became part of. They were not all fervent dyed-in-the-wool Nazi's most were forced to join the Nazi Party to continue working in order to provide for their families.

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Jan 04 - 11:09 AM

"Fascist", of course, is a label, rather a lot like "Liberal." It means what the user wants it to mean and can be used to lump together groups and individuals that have little or nothing in common. Among historians, economists and political scientists, it is generally (although not universally) agreed that the Fascist Party of Italy had little in common with the Nazi Party of Germany other than totalitarianism, extreme nationalism and expansionism, and these were the traits that they shared with the micro-parties of Eastern Europe as well. An interesting book on the topic of the right-totalitarian parties of inter-war Europe is Stanley Payne's History of Fascism.

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 04 - 10:04 AM

Okay, Teribus, until I finish reading the book, I'll re-phrase if it will make you happy:

The Republican Party brought into its fols many, many people who wer members of fascists organization that were allied with Hitler and the Nazi Party...

There. Any arguments with this wording?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 09 Jan 04 - 07:58 AM

MGOH, beat me to it - death camps formed part of the Nazi's "final Solution" and were not introduced until 1941 (If memory serves me correctly). So by the time camps were established in Poland, SAC's facilities in Poland had been commandeered by the Nazi's for about a year and a half. Which means that GWB's Grandfather could hardly be held responsible for their management.

Bobert, it would appear that when you refer to Nazi's, you actually are referring to fascists, as all those you name are non-German and were not members of the Nazi Party.

The book you refer to, makes mention of one, Reinhard Gehlen:

"The most important Nazi employed by the U.S. was Reinhard Gehlen, Hitler's most senior eastern front military intelligence officer. After Germany's defeat became certain, Gehlen offered the U.S. certain concessions in exchange for his own protection."

During the latter stages of the Second World War, US representatives, at the Yalta Conference, started to have doubts about Soviet intentions. Churchill had been warning the Americans for quite some time but his warnings had been ignored. By the time the Potsdam Conference took place, the Americans fully realised that the Russians were indeed a threat and discovered that their intelligence on Russia was deplorably lacking. No existing agents, no networks in place, no contacts - the USSR was in effect an intelligence black-hole.

That situation had to be remedied - enter Reinhard Gehlen - he offered the Americans everything they lacked - personally I believe he was one of the best con-men of his age, a brilliant opportunist and born survivor. He knew that neither the British or the French would entertain him, they didn't need to, but to the US Intelligence Services of the day, he must have appeared like the answer to a prayer. The result, the Americans took him hook, line and sinker. But his function was to maintain and develope espionage networks in eastern Europe and in the Soviet Republic, not run the Republican Party.

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 04 - 07:12 AM

"Death camps" as such weren't introduced bybthe Nazis until after the war had started, along with other extermination methods directed at Jews and Gypsies. Without the war it seems unlikely they would have happened in that form.

But there was plenty of persecution and murder of Jews and Gypsies. Most dramatically, for Jews, during the Kristallnacht pogroms in 1938.

The evidence was there, but a lot of people chose to look the other way. Not just ordinary people who were dependent on what the mass media chose to tell them, but the kind of people who controlled what went into the mass media.

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 09 Jan 04 - 06:54 AM

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 11:04 PM

Thanks...I'll look for that book.

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 10:48 PM

No, Artbrooks, not purely German Nazi's but folks like Laszlo Pasztor, a Hunagarian fascist, memebr of the Arrow Cross which was the Huingarian equivelent to the German Nazi Party. The Arrow Crooss later joined up with Hitler in 1944 and Pasztor joined Hitler in Germany...

Pasztor became the founder of the Heritage Coucil of the Republican Party in the early's 50's and as we know this Council is still going stron promoting right wohned agendas..

But there wer many Naziz's and Nazi sypathathizers; Ivan Docheff, a fascists from Bulgaria, Also Radi Slavoff, anothe Bu8lgarian fascist. Valerian Trifa, an Romanian fascist, Walter Melianovich, as Bylorussian fascists, etc. etc. Hundreds of these Hitler sypathizers ened up right here in the US in the Republican Party.

A good read is Russ Ballant's "Old Nazis, the New Right and the Republican Party". He goes into details that are beyond belief except, he provides the resources fir the doubters. This book is a slam dunk... and purdy danged scarey...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 10:46 PM

Kendall

Interesting hypothesis, but not something I had previously thought was true . Any corroborating evidence for that chronology?

A

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 09:22 PM

If my shakey European history is not too far off, Hitler was sending Jews to the death camps long before he invaded Poland.

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 09:09 PM

Bobert, not to dispute your opinion, but do you mean 'Nazis,' a purely German political party which had some (mostly unsuccessful) imitators in other countries, or fascists, or radical right-wingers, or what? Or do you refer to the fact that many people admired them for the way they pulled Germany out of the Depression, without fully understanding the rot at the core of the party's philosophy? And who, exactly?

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 08:44 PM

Well, Doug,

Hard as yer boy, T, tried he didn't dent my original accusation. And din't ven touch upon the fact that after WW II, lots and lots of former Nazi's were brought into the Republican Party and not as goffers but in positions of power.

Now, if you know the history of the folks you supporst and still want to support their ideologies that go way back into the 30's fine. Just say so. I can rspect that. But to deny the facsist fabric and leanings of the Republican Party is dishonest...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 07:51 PM

"The key word, of course, is convicted."

The crucial thing is that there should be the will to ensure that people and companies reasonably suspected of this kind of thing should be prosecuted; and that the law shouldn't have loopholes that enable the guilty to walk free and get back on the gravy train, even when they are wealthy and powerful.

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: DougR
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 07:38 PM

Thanks, Amos, I'm familiar with the term. And no, I would not support anyone who was convicted of profiteering from a war. The key word, of course, is convicted.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 07:34 PM

"It is my recollection, though, that the Nazi Party did not become the hated party that it became until later in the 1930s, after the invasion of Poland."

Absolutely true among a lot of respectable and important people in both our countries. What did a little persecution of Jews and STrades Unionists and so forth matter, when the man wasn't interfering with making money?

"Premature anti-fascist" was the term coined in the USA later to refer to the kind of people who tried to make a fuss about what Hitler was doing too early.

The same way when Saddam was gassing Kurds and waging aggressive war and persecuting his opponents, that wasn't a matter for the same kind of people to worry about, until he invaded Kuwait and threatened profits.

"Premature anti-fascist" was the term coined in the USA later to refer to the kind of people who tried to make a fuss about that kind of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 07:31 PM

"It is my recollection, though, that the Nazi Party did not become the hated party that it became until later in the 1930s, after the invasion of Poland."

Absolutely true among a lot of respectable and important people in both our countries. What's a little persecution of Jews and STrades Unionists and so forth matter when the man wasn't interfering with making money?

"Premature anti-fascist" was the term coined in the USA later to refer to the kind of people who tried to make a fuss about that kind of thing.

The same way when Saddam was gassing Kurds and waging aggressive war and persecuting his opponents, that wasn't a matter for the same kind of people to worry about, until he invaded Kuwait and threatened profits.

"Premature anti-fascist" was the term coined in the USA later to refer to the kind of people who tried to make a fuss about that kind of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 07:18 PM

The title of this thread says it all: False Advertising by the RNC.
Just watch between now and the election next November -- just watch. It's going to get uglier, and cleverer, and nastier, and more manipulation will take place this time than in 2000, and the voter fraud will be more subtle.

Subject: RE: BS: False advertising by the RNC
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 05:40 PM

Doug, I know this is fruitless, but a lot of what I wrote above is historical fact, not just my opinion. And if you don't see the rest of it working out day by day, it's because you don't want to see it.

As far as any Nazi connection between the Kennedy and Bush families, I'm not up on that, so I make no comment. I was aware of Lindberg's sentiments, however. I have heard allegations (as above) about the Kennedys and the Bushes, but I have not checked it out for myself. I do that, you know.

Don Firth