BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 09:12 AM

"You have not once condemned the stabbing of Jews."
Yes I have Keith - I have just said "everybody condemns the random killing of innocent people, except people like you" - that was my case about rocket attacks and is also my view about these attacks.
I have pointed out that I believe the taking of human is basically evil - I refuse to specify one or the other - ALL HUMAN LIFE (thought it was a Christian ethic - obviously not).
What I do say is what is happening at present is not unconnected with the slaughter of 2,104 Palestinian dead, including 1,462 civilians - 344 children And 110 women - the stabbings are the direct consequence of the actions of the Israeli regime - that does not justify them, it just explains why they are happening
Youre argument from day one is that Israel never did what it ahs been see to do over and over again - not responsible for massacres, Sabra Shatila, killing of civilians.... nothing
You even said at one stage that you were JUST PUTTING THE ISRAELI CASE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 06:34 AM

No sniping from the sidelines Musket , jim dosen't like it !

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:34 AM

"Not. You can't"

Ah, familiar territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:33 AM

I have always condemned the racist murder of anybody - immigrants or otherwise - always.

You have not once condemned the stabbing of Jews.
Or, show us a quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:31 AM

Jim,
"Israel is innocent"

Fake quote.
I have never said that.
Will you produce a genuine quote?
No.
You can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:30 AM

"but not a word about murdering them because of their race."
What!!!!
I have always condemned the racist murder of anybody - immigrants or otherwise - always.
You people have accused me so seeing racists under the bed.
Don't you dare attempt to smear me with your own racism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:30 AM

Gaza 2014.
Israel was subjected to indiscriminate attacks on its civilians from terrorists hiding among civilians. It was a victim of war crimes.
It had a right and duty to respond, and tried to do so without breaking international law. The civilian deaths were the result of Hamas' war crimes not Israel's.

Beirut 1982.
An Arab militia carried out a reprisal massacre in the Sabra/Shatilla camp.
Other massacres also occurred in those camps.
All were committed by Arabs not Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:25 AM

Everybody condemns it Keith.

Not in your posts.
Jim started a whole thread condemning wristbands to enable immigrants to claim welfare, but not a word about murdering them because of their race.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:24 AM

"Of course I never have."
Yes you have - from day one
A quote - where to start - there have been no massacres - Sabra/Shatila - 2014 slaughter.... all - "Israel is innocent" - and that's without the persecution in the form of evictions, chemical spraying, moving Bedouins onto toxic dumps, a ten-year blockade to starve Palestinians into submission - and all the other non or long term fatalities you have defended by blaming the victims.
Your record speaks for itself and hangs around your neck like a plague bell.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:12 AM

except people like you, who supports it when it happens to thousands - by tanks, rockets, chemicals.

Disgusting personal slur.
Of course I never have.
Will you produce a quote?
Of course not. That is not what you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:07 AM

Ban Ki- Moon condemned Israel for killing children

Quote please.

rogue state of Israel and their aggressive terrorism of neighbours

Quote/example please.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:02 AM

""Speaking at the UN Security Council, Mr Ban also condemned recent stabbings of Israelis by Palestinians.""
I'm sure he did Keith - that wasn't your question
Ban Ki- Moon condemned Israel for killing children - your question was did he support them
It's taken a week for you to respond and even then you had to be smoked out - which was the point I was making.
Of course he condemns street stabbings - everybody condemns the random killing of innocent people, except people like you, who supports it when it happens to thousands - by tanks, rockets, chemicals..... or even by killers sent in to slaughter thousands of unarmed refugees - just as long as it's done in the name of the State of Israel.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 03:50 AM

Everybody condemns it Keith. Why wouldn't anybody?

The reason it isn't relevant in these posts is that we are discussing the rogue state of Israel and their aggressive terrorism of neighbours. Sure, said neighbours defend themselves and as with most people, blur defence.

What is a liberal leftie by the way, and can you point me to his or her posts?

💤

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 03:42 AM

Keith demands contradiction that Ban Ki-Moon condemns Palestinians
BBC 7 hours ago.
"Speaking at the UN Security Council, Mr Ban also condemned recent stabbings of Israelis by Palestinians."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-35414822

None of you liberal-lefties have yet condemned the knifing of immigrants on grounds of race, which is what is happening.i>Keith demands contradiction that Ban Ki-Moon condemns Palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 03:26 AM

"I did notice you made no mention of the bible or the romans Terriblossom"
Don't hold your breath Raggy - these clowns don't do 'answers'
Terry the Thunderer beligerates that Arafat invented Palestine for money - then silence when that one is shot down
Keith demands contradiction that Ban Ki-Moon condemns Palestinians - you give it to him - silence again.
Brainless Bruce (he without the balls to post under his chosen identity and who denies himself when recognised) claims that Israel isn't a theocracy (one of the widest know facts in the conflict) - show him it is - silence.
These guys deal only in silence (though Terrytoon is rather blusteringly loud about it).
They are a trio of know-nothings without the nouse even to hide their ignorance.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 02:08 AM

Interesting article On BBC news website. The UN defending the right of the Palestinian oppressed to defend themselves against Israeli aggression. Ban ki Moon coming off the fence.

Meanwhile, Israeli militants have killed 155 Palestinians since October.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,dullardry
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 12:23 AM

Let off a bomb
Start a school
Cut off a head
Build a clinic
Pick your side

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 07:21 PM

Bit of a contradiction there Territowelling.

You seem to accept that a Roman Palestine did indeed exist that was larger than the 1923 version, again Palestine.

So please clarify.

Did Palestine exist in Roman (and biblical times) and did it exist in 1923.

As regards a link to the map, a mistake on my part. Have a look at the second map on the second line.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 03:46 PM

"no mention of the bible or the romans"

Thought you and your pals had no time for anything said in the bible - the Romans used the term "Palestine" in exactly the same way the League of Nations did a way of describing a collection of districts Idumea; Judea; Samaria; Galilee; Decapolis; Perea; Nabatea. Like the original Mandate defined by the League of Nations Roman Palestine was much larger than the amended 1923 League of Nations version.

Nice try at deflecting the discussion Raggy - hasn't worked - Oh dear, how sad, never mind. Palestine as a nation and "Palestinians" as a people were invented by Yasser Arafat as a means of making money sometime in the early 1970s.

Not found that map I take it.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 01:53 PM

Palestine during the last 70 years

I did notice you made no mention of the bible or the romans Terriblossom

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 12:33 PM

It wasn't actually awarded "as a matter of course", mind; why, iirc I had to pay a seven guinea "administration fee" for it!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 12:23 PM

Guest at 1143 -- It's indeed just a Cambridge MA, which BA's proceed to automatically, I believe it's 11 terms after graduation, as earnest of their being admitted to the University Senate; which is only a formality also, at that, as the only time it has done me any good was to be able to vote for Brian Blessed as University Chancellor a few years back -- and then he didn't win. Doesn't even get me a badge for any of the University car parks! Oh, yes, it does entitle me to some occasional High Table dinners at my old college -- must remember to go & claim one, one of these fine years!

Mysterious are the ways of these ancient foundations!

≈M≈

Back to terrorism in Mideast!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 12:20 PM

More What!!!! In 1948??? What on earth do you think the population of the reduced (1923) Mandated TERRITORY of Palestine was?
More aggressive biullshit when will you ever learn
Jim Carroll

AUPHR

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 11:51 AM

Arab refugee: Arabs left Israel in 1948 because of leadership's promise that it would be temporary

YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 11:46 AM

GUEST,Raggytash - 26 Jan 16 - 07:20 AM

"Poor try Terriblossom. I can produce maps that do not show France, Germany, Italy, Serbia, Bosnia et al in their present borders."

Of course you can Raggy, but I liked the qualification you just slipped in there at the tail - "in their present borders." - so show me a map that predates 1970 that shows a COUNTRY called Palestine on a map. Now as we are discussing the creation of Israel from the former League of Nations Mandated Territory of Palestine (77% of which was hived off solely and exclusively for Arab settlement in 1923) To counter your claim that Palestine existed prior to Arafat's creation of it in the early 1970s I thought the map of the area of the previous owners might be of interest and guess what Raggy - no mention of Palestine to be seen anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 11:43 AM

Just a simple question MGM, did you actually study for an MA or was it awarded as a matter of course as I believe is/was the case for Oxbridge students.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 11:34 AM

"the Israelis who drove over five million Palestinians into exile"

What!!!! In 1948??? What on earth do you think the population of the reduced (1923) Mandated TERRITORY of Palestine was? The population was less than 2 million so would you care to explain exactly out of a total population of less than 2 million the Israelis managed to drive 5 million Palestinians into exile? [Simply dying to hear the explanation]

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 11:29 AM

New antisemitism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Part of a series on
Antisemitism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism#United_Kingdom

·····Lengthy & somewhat diffuse, but overall IMO interesting and worthwhile and relevant, Wikipedia article.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 11:17 AM

I can keep this propaganda up as long as you continue to ignore the facts of what is happening

It is people like you, with your soft bigotry of low expectations for the Palestinian people, who refuse to admit to any culpability of the Palestinians and their leaders for the situation they find themselves in. When and if they ever get honest and responsible leaders who genuinely want peace and prosperity for their people and not use them as pawns to try and achieve some diabolical goal, Israel is ready and willing to talk as they have demonstrated on numerous occasions.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 10:44 AM

0903 A reasonable antithesis, GregF, one is bound in justice to admit.

Dave -- well, hmmmm ... This Dr Klug, I find from Wiki, is a fellow of an Oxford college...
Nuff said?!

≈M≈
MA Cantab

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 10:10 AM

You can watch him making it on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4Mq63fUwEo

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 10:07 AM

The quote comes from Abbas which he made on PA TV, it was reported by PMW among other sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:53 AM

Tried to goodle your top quote to find its source - no luck, but interestingly, it came up with THIS
Your second quote comes from Palestine Media Watch - an employee of the Israeli Government
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:31 AM

Contrary to what apologists aver, the current wave of stabbings is not a reaction to occupation it is a reaction to an invented threat to the al-Aqsa mosque created by the leaders of Palestine's Muslims. They have used this fabrication to manipulate the emotions of Muslims convincing them that they must protect the Temple Mount from Jews. These emotions are also being flamed by the PA and particularly by Abbas with outrageous statements such as this one which he made on Official PA TV on September 16, 2015:

"We bless you, we bless the Murabitin (those carrying out Ribat, religious conflict/war to protect land claimed to be Islamic), we bless every drop of blood that has been spilled for Jerusalem, which is clean and pure blood, blood spilled for Allah, Allah willing. Every Martyr (Shahid) will reach Paradise, and everyone wounded will be rewarded by Allah.
The Al-Aqsa [Mosque] is ours, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is ours, and they have no right to defile them with their filthy feet. We will not allow them to, and we will do everything in our power to protect Jerusalem."

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:23 AM

Greg, that was precisely Brian Klug's point, and why he criticised the EUMC definition.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:21 AM

Nameless Guest, neither of those constitutes recognition by any state.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:07 AM

Gosh Terribulus. Those Foreign Office jobbies stationed in Palestine pre 1948 must have been fiddling their expenses then if their postings didn't exist.

Are you sure? You normally defend the establishment.

By the way, when Palestinian junior doctors come here to finish training, The General Medical Council accepts "Palestine" as country of origin, putting it as such on their registration if they so wish.

Judging a nation by Arafat is like judging us by Haig or other militaristic monsters.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:06 AM

has never been recommended to member states for adoption.

See:London Declaration on Combating Antisemitism and The Ottawa Protocol on Combating Antisemitism.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:03 AM

Go back to sleep, Professor.

the practice of disguised antisemitism masquerading as legitimate criticism of Israel".

Equally, if not MORE pernicious and dishonest is legitimate criticism of Israel being derided and dismissed as antisemitism.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:03 AM

Tragedy: Shlomit Krigman, 24, has succumbed to her wounds from yesterday's terror attack in Beit Horon.

Shlomit was a 'komanirit' in her sherut leumi for Bnai Akiva in Beit Horon. Shlomit was visiting her grandparents who reside there when she was murdered by the terrorists in the makolet where she was going to buy food for her grandparents.

Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:58 AM


You want to take that question up with Donald Trump, Marco Rubio & Ted Cruz, Professor.

No. It is only Jews being hacked to death because of where they live.

Palestinians say the frustrations caused by the Israeli occupation are at the root of the outburst of violence."

So it is OK to hack to death any immigrant whose status you question?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:50 AM

if you consider that an immigrant's status is illegal, it is OK to hack them to death.

You want to take that question up with Donald Trump, Marco Rubio & Ted Cruz, Professor.


were these knife attacks in Israel proper (i.e. pre-1967) or in the occupied West Bank?

"About 26 Israelis, an American student and one Palestinian bystander have been killed in Palestinian stabbings, car rammings and gun attacks since Oct. 1. In the same period, about 150 Palestinians have been killed.

The Palestinians and most of the world view the Jewish West Bank settlements as a violation of international law and as an obstacle to the establishment of a Palestinian state. Palestinians say the frustrations caused by the Israeli occupation are at the root of the outburst of violence."

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/27/world/middleeast/israeli-palestinian-attack-beit-horon.html?_r=0

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:41 AM

MGM, that definition was heavily criticised by Brian Klug amongst others, and has never been recommended to member states for adoption.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:34 AM

Palestine comes from the same root, Peleset, as Philistine, and they were one of the Sea Peoples who colonised the Eastern Mediterranean in the second millenium BC. Sure, they have been occupied since by Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Israelites, Romans, Byzantines, Selucids, Abbasids, Mongols, Ottomans, British, and many many more, and sure there will be lots of interbreeding to like the other populations in the area they will not be genetically pure, but to say they were never a country is nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:20 AM

"I accept that I have probably overstated the case on occasion"
We both are guilty of this Mike- it happens in passionate argument
My apologies, when I have.
"it seems to me nevertheless that there have been times when you have at least verged on that 2005 definition of antisemitism"
If that's true we both have - attributing the actions of the Israeli regime to the Jewish People by describing criticism of the actions of that regime as "Antisemitic" - is in breach of the definition.
I have to say I am uneasy about the definition anyway - that you can't compare the actions of the Israeli Government to that of the Nazis, when in some cases it is highly comparable is somewhaat suspect.
Jews as early as Einstein and his fellow signatories, the ex-head of Mossad who stopped short of making such a comparison... and many other examples of loyal Israeli citizens using terms like 'reminiscent to the holocaust' or, 'Ethnic cleansing' - all cast doubt of that particular clause of the definition.
It has recently been amended to take into account what is now happening - much to the anger of the present leadership.
I have at no time directed my criticism at 'The Jews' - I leave that to Netanyahu, Bearded Bruce, and their ilk.
I believe the present leadership, unfortunately with a large following, have betrayed the the ideals of the State of Israel, just as I believe that various "Communist!!!" and "Socialist!!!" leaders beytrayed the dreams of people who believe the world is severely in need of a change for the better.   
I believe the Jews have become just as much victims of the present situation as have the Palestinian and (not to mention those of us who are not involved but are still under the shadow).
I have always spoken out about what I believe has happened to the left - I see no reason not to speak out about what I believe has happened to The State of Israel - just as much a dream of my family upbringing as was Socialism.
Perhaps it's time we called "fainites."
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 07:46 AM

'you have continually castigated me, even to the length of describing me as "Antisemitic", for going beyond symbolism and criticising the realities of the situation'
.,,.
I accept that I have probably overstated the case on occasion, Jim; but it seems to me nevertheless that there have been times when you have at least verged on that 2005 definition of antisemitism by the EUMC {The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia},

"the practice of disguised antisemitism masquerading as legitimate criticism of Israel".

I repeat I do not wish to over-exaggerate this; but what would seem to be your pertinacious "Israel can do no right in any circumstances" attitude & tone can, let us say, appear to give such an unfortunate impression.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 07:29 AM

You're denyin' days are done Keith

It seems your lying days will never be done.

elsewhere David ben Gurion made it quite clear that he was aware the Israelis had "stolen Arab" lands

Not true.
Produce one clear, uncontentious example Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 07:20 AM

Poor try Terriblossom. I can produce maps that do not show France, Germany, Italy, Serbia, Bosnia et al in their present borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 07:18 AM

You're denyin' days are done Keith
Tertitoon
Accusations of "corruption" ring a little hollow coming from a country which elected the man responsible for the massacre of 3,000 unarmed refugees Prime Minister, doncha think!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 07:09 AM

It was the Israelis who drove over five million Palestinians into exile and has persistently refused to allow them to return.

Arab lands drove out more Jews than Israelis ever drove out Arabs.