BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:33 PM

Opps looks like I lost my member status over my jew-ish joke about all major religions.

Oh well if it is merely a guest I must be so be it. We are all short term guests on this planet anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:28 PM

Thanks for that, Riginslinger. I should know better than to post after a rough day. My apologies to you.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:16 PM

Peace - Sorry, I didn't mean to sound one-sided. I was just taking exception to the concept that Judaism wasn't to be taken seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:13 PM

This was an atheist thread

Last I looked, Mudcat threads are still not moderated. Unless a named member got an OK for an Atheist Permathread-- which I would LOVE to see as well as a moderated Believers' Permathread-- threads like this one are still places where discussion can and will occur.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:00 PM

I've heard that one-sided shit before, Riginslinger. Islam has damaged the Israelis, too.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 06:46 PM

To take a massive subject like Judaism, rich with not only belief, but also colorful and deeply felt tradition, deep affinities for life, literature, scholarship and song and dismiss it as "not serious" is quite a feat -- but, I am sorry to add, a very meretricious one.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: frogprince
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 06:35 PM

From the post by Guest Ed that started this thread:
"God does not exist

If anyone can give me decent evidence as to why I'm wrong, I'd like to here it, along with something more substantial than "mysterious ways""

From 2R2RA:

"This was an atheist thread not a religious one so it is you and Firth who came here and made trouble not me."

Yes, obviously, this was a thread started by an atheist. Just as obviously, said atheist was opening himself to retorts by non-atheists. So some non-atheists threw in their $.02 worth. So that constitutes "making trouble" on an "atheist thread". That must be a valid point, because, after all, atheists are always rational...:}

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 06:08 PM

"Judaism is major but not serious."


                Why would we say Judaism is not serious? It's done a lot of serious damage to the Palastinians.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 04:03 PM

Poppa
I prefer sex over sectarian or secular.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 04:00 PM

Little Jenny: "God sorta looks like Santa on a cross."

There are major religions and then there are serious religions.
Judaism is major but not serious. After aits followers are only Jewish. Evaangelicals don't call themselves Christianish. Evangelicals are a serious religion but not a major religion, except for its use by the Republican party.
Islam is both major and serious. Islamic law can get you stoned but not in the good way. Cartoons and teddy bears can all conspire against you by Islamic law.
Buddism is major with a minor in seriousness, while Hinduism has a flavor for everything under the sun, especially sex.
Catholocism has a lock on both serious and major with its grand wahzzoo Pope and all its little chess pieces below.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:47 PM

For several days, I resisted the temptation to look into this discussion. I figured (correctly) that much of what would be written would be drearily predictable, and (incorrectly) that it would quickly run out of steam.

As time went on and the list of responses grew so exponentially, I finally yielded to temptation and started reading. It's taken a couple of days to work my way to the end; you all have been writing in new stuff just about as quickly as I can read!

A couple of observations:

On separation of church and state: Yes, no one agrees more readily than I that sectarian religious issues and disagreements have no place in secular public discourse. Most of us here, theists and atheists alike, seem to agree on this, and also seem to agree that there are way too many fundamentalists out there who threaten this boundary.

However, every citizen has the right and indeed the duty to follow whatever moral imperatives that he/she truly believes when acting in the public arena, as a voter or even a candidiate or officeholder. Whether said convictions are "religious" or not is beside the point.

Years ago, as a young adult, I joined with many others in various acts of civil disobedience in support of the moral convictions that racial discrimination must be eradicated, and that conscription into the kill-or-be-killed arena of warfare (especially, undeclared warfare) must be resisted. Many of us involved in these movements acted out of some kind of secular-humanist set of values, but just as many if not more were deeply involved in one or another religious tradition. How many names of ministers and priests, etc., do I need to drop to illustrate this point? Let's see, Martin Luther King, Dan Berrigan, Desmond Tutu...

Today's situation, where the most fervent exponents of moral resistance to civil authority generally espouse positions with which I do not necessarily agree, is somewhat problematic. I cannot be persuaded that abortion, however distateful, is morally equivalent to killing a human being who has been born ~ but I understand how it is that someone else might hold the opposite opinion, and I recognize exactly how and why such a person might feel morally obligated to act upon his/her convictions.

I simply expect that today's fundamentalist protesters observe the same rules about civil disobedience that were expected of us "new-leftists" 40-some-odd years ago: (1) only nonviolent civil disobedience carries any moral authority at all, and (2) every participant is expected to proudly and willingly accept whatever punishment the civil authorities decide to dole out.

In other words, to cite the most extreme example, holier-than-thou egomaniacs who murder doctors are nobody's moral superiors. Not only are they obviously guilty as sin, they set back their own causes.

If and when I observe people with whom I disagree to act upon their convictions in a responsible and civilized manner, I understand exactly where they're coming from and grant them my grudging admiration, whether or they've been the least bit successful in modifying my viewpoint or altering my own convictions.

On another related note:

I think that there is a more meaningful distinction between believers in a spiritual dimension ("theistic" or not) versus flat-out nihilists than there is between believers in God and non-believers. As pointed out above, Buddhism and Taoism are more accurately classified as "non-theistic philospohies" than as "religions," because even though they promote study of tne mysterious Unseen, they do not generally believe in petitional prayer or the possibility of miracles. For adherents of these spiritual systems, "prayer" or meditation is the activity of aligning oneself with spiritual truth, not a request for intervention on the part of a supernatural personality. Nothing more than a matter of "getting right with God," to rephrase it in familar western/Christian terms, and not really so alien a concept for believers.

I am equally comfortable feeling commonality with that type of "non-theist," with agnostics and "seekers," and with the vast majority of reasonable and charitable non-fundamental religionists. On the other hand, I find myself absolutely at odds with those who deny the existence of anything they can't see with their own eyes, just as irrevocably as with the smallest-minded, most puritanical, most fundamentalist literal interpreters of the Bible, or the Koran, or whatever hard-and-fast rulebook to which they've sworn allegiance.

Oh yeah, one more thing: to everything Little Hawk has written here, Amen. (And to much of what many others have said, too; I don't mean to slight anyone. But LH seems to be very much on the same wavelength as I am when it comnes to this kind of topic.)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:46 PM

All triangles have 180 degrees (interior angles). That holds true until someone draws a triangle on a globe, and then it has 270 degrees. Then someone defines triangle as figure drawn on a flat surface, as if such a thing is at all possible in a universe that is curved. Even flat surfaces aren't flat.

We each believe in things because to do otherwise would force us all to live in split-level realities. How DO you describe the direction 'left' when you and the entity to whom you are giving the direction have nothing in common?

Science has its foibles, because scientists are humans, not gods. I would no more put science on a pedestal than I would religion. I trust neither anymore. They have each lied to protect their respective 'positions of authority'. Remember the "Rule of 48".

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:39 PM

Probably in the same location as your right to lump all of the 'faithful' into that last sentence.

You certainly have the right to do that, as far as I am concerned. But that is my value-laden judgement, and not an objective reality.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:37 PM

". . . these ARE facts, not opinions, and are not subject to disbelief."

Until and unless proven otherwise. That is the nature of science.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:34 PM

If someone believes in G-d, does anyone think that a G-d capable of creating a universe or a multiplicity of universes would have any difficulty creating a universe that appeared to be billions of years old yet is only 6,000? People, if yer gonna use logic, use it.

Some of you have by recognizing that G-d is a belief. But then, some science is based on belief, too. Go figure . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:29 PM

But you assume that all people of faith think the same way. I belive in a higher power - but it's not the old man with a beard. And I ALSO believe in evolution and that the planet is older than 6,000 years old. It's not as cut and dried as you think.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:17 PM

I'm not talking about when I have opinions - I'm talking about demonstrable evidence, like DNA for evolution, geological evidence that the planet is more than 6k years old, and so on. No "belief" involved - these ARE facts, not opinions, and are not subject to disbelief - ***unless you are willing to deny reality*** to protect your beliefs.
I ask, why should I respect that denial? Where is the right of the faithful to be ignorant of facts?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:12 PM

Well said, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:11 PM

That is one profound conclusion, there, Miss Janie.

Mrrz, I would also offer the possibility that there are at least two -- perhaps many -- universes of discourse being confused here.

A scientist, totally aside from his professional activities, has to answer for himself whether or not there even EXISTS a spiritual universe of discourse. This is not an easy question, given (among other things) that the sphere is so subjective and that it has had so many strange items and attributes assigned to it.

The general undercurrent of most of these assertions from the whole spectrum of human spiritual assertions seems to be that it is not a realm contained by space-time as it is knwon and practiced on by scientists. That being liely, it is quite understandable that there may be things that function in such a domain that are completely, absolutely, demonstrably false in another.

In addition to the clear domain of matter and energy operating in space-time, which is the proper domain of sciences relating to phsyical universe phenomena, and a possible second domain of spiritual existence (and possibly interaction) outside (or co-imposed wholly or partially on or through) the ordinary space-time continuum, there is a third domain which is even more treacherous and hard to figger on than either of these.

This is the domain of human agreement, in which created ideas, opinions, and realities are erected based on persuasion free of proof, and usually quite free of heuristics or empirical measurement. All by itself this domain is a sticky, messy, volatile and irrational soup. When mixed up as it always is with domains 1 and 2, it gets even more so. All this adds up to some really disparate takes on what is or is not acceptable data, credible reality, or honorable methods of acquiring data and accepting or rejecting it.

That's my $,02 worth on the question. There may well be other domains in play I haven't mentioned or noticed.

Regards,


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:07 PM

I'm a "rational theist?" Since when have I been any kind of theist?

I'm with ranger 1 here. "I have my beliefs, what they are isn't anyone else's business."

I don't need anyone to tell me what to believe. I do have beliefs, but I'm open to new data, and that new data may very well prompt me to change those beliefs. I have heard the best arguments there are for the existence of God (Thomas Aquinas and a whole bunch of others) and I've heard the best arguments from the atheist viewpoint. I find that in both cases, the proponents start with their conclusion and then try to "reverse engineer" to prove their belief. That's bound to skew the "logic." The best "logical" arguments of all for the existence of God are Aquinas's, and even they have gaping holes in them. The most rigorously logical arguments I've encountered for the non-existence of God were put forth by Ayn Rand (yes, that Ayn Rand!). They, too, are full of holes.

IF there is a God, a Creator of the universe (consider how immense the universe is, and then consider the idea, put forth by recent cosmologists such as Michio Kaku, that this "universe" we inhabit is merely one of a huge number of "mulitverses," further complicated by multiple dimensions), then any Entity who could have created this is so far beyond our comprehension that for someone to say that they "know the mind of God" or are "doing God's will" borders on the ludicrous. I also maintain that those Creationists who believe that the universe is only 6000 years old, that there was a literal Adam and Eve, and all that goes with it—well, they worship a very puny God. Little better that a minor wizard.

But this is not to say that life does not have a spiritual dimension.

One area for consideration:    In that realm of multiverses, and multidimentsions that modern cosmologists and string-theorists are contemplating lies a possible explanation for the occasional manifestation of what might be called "paranormal phenomena" experienced by perfectly sane and reliable people. "Leakage" between dimensions? A rift in the membrane between our universe and the one next door?

Or the matter of an Afterlife? Perhaps, when we die, our awareness ("soul," if you insist) merely slips into another universe or dimension, just as physical as the one we currently inhabit. Or not.

Perhaps the God that people worship as if He were a benevolent father is actually a lab technician and we are merely a culture in a cosmic Petri dish. I wonder what the nature of the experiment might be? And how, do you suppose, are we doing?

Do I believe any of this? No. But I don't know that it isn't the case, either. The true nature of reality are best summed up by geneticist and evolutionary biologist J. B. S. Haldane, who said, "the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose."

Being totally, rigidly, and absolutely imbedded in a body of belief that brooks no new information and refuses to adapt when new information is presented is to close the door on true knowledge and growth. If one holds that, one is as good as dead already.

I have no trouble reconciling science (dedicated to revising and updating when new evidence is presented) and religion—provided it is the kind of religion that is open to Mystery and is not rigidly dogmatic and authoritarian.

There are things that we will never know. Get over it!

Holy crap!! I think I'm starting to talk like Little Hawk!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 02:55 PM

Mrzzy, I expect some people behave in the manner you inquire about for the same reasons you pose a very subjective, value-laden question in which you appear to assume that your beliefs about 'right', your assumptions about 'ignorance', and your perceptions of 'reality,' are fact, instead of belief.

In short, people nearly always act like people.

Big surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 02:34 PM

You've loaded your questions with enough phrases as to make it unanswerable - unless you believe exactly the same way as you do. As in "How long has it been since you beat your wife".

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 02:23 PM

Don Firth - it isn't faith on my side, it's a logical conclusion from data - a theory, if you will, like gravity. On the faith side is, however, just faith.

We celebrate midwinter, not $mas, but we do it AT $mas - because that is when people have time off.

This is a real question. I would ask it in much softer tones if it weren't driving me up a wall. Thank you in advance for answering the issue, not the tone, thanks.
I would like to know, as I have asked before, why should people be entitled to ignorance? I'm talking *only* about the believers who, when presented with a demonstrable reality which disproves their faith, deny reality rather than amending their faith - people who'd take their kids out of biology class for bible-thumping reasons, so all you rational theist don't get your knickers in a twist. But why should that be a right? I thought kids had a right to an education? What about adults? Why should I think that they are "entitled to their [counter to reality] beliefs" or respect beliefs which are demonstrably and already known to be false?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 01:26 PM

Those BIC lighters are the Devil's playthings. ANyone could see that plainly if they would only look.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 01:24 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 01:19 PM

HEATHENS - I will pray for them..........

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 01:15 PM

Geeze, Wesley, even 'special forces' are using Bic lighters . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 01:10 PM

Life is too short to be evangelical about anything. Except that right now - Collings makes the best production guitars on the planet.

I usually expect folkies to be pretty tolerant about most things. That's why I'm suprised at how testy some folks get when others talk about religion. It would be one thing if there were dozens of posts telling folks they were going straight to hell unless they repent and are "washed in the blood of the lamb". But I don't see that here. I'm fine with others want to believe - but I do object when some folks here want to insult others for their beliefs.

FYI - I wasn't responsable for the Spanish Inquisition - and I've given up burning athiests at the stake. But don't tempt me to break out the matches.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: ranger1
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:48 PM

I have been reading this thread for quite a while. My thoughts about religion are this: everyone is entitled to their belief, atheist, Christian, secular humanist, Pagan, whatever. It's a personal thing, I don't mind anyone's beliefs as long as they don't try to push that belief onto me. Seems to me that's what LH, Peace, Wesley, Don Firth and Amos have been saying all along. Me, I have my beliefs, what they are isn't anyone else's business. I'm partnered with an atheist, he doesn't believe the same things I believe, but he's ok with me and my beliefs and I'm ok with him and his beliefs. One of the major tenets of most belief systems is tolerance, lots of religions don't practice it, but religion and faith/belief aren't the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:43 PM

We can't all be right - but we can all be wrong...

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:35 PM

"Why does my reality have to be your reality?"

EXACTLY - It doesn't. But most people would rather be "right" than "happy".

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:30 PM

I got one question, but it will be prefaced with a statement.

God does or doesn't exist. If God does, then some of you are wrong. If God doesn't, then some of you are wrong. That said, here's the question:

Why does my reality have to be your reality?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:15 PM

I have no issues, 282RA. You seem to be the one with the issues.

I find both evangelisitic Christians and evangelistic atheists obnoxious. But within my experience, if you tell an evangelistic Christian loudly enough to f***-off, they usually say somthing like "I'll pray for you," and then they go away and leave you alone. Tell an evangelistic atheist to leave you alone and they get nasty and keep right on talking, follow you around, even into the bathroom, and generally accuse you of being mentally deficient--or accuse you of having "issues."

Have a nice day.

Don Firth

P. S. No, I take that back. I do have issues. I find both evangelistic Christians and evangelistic atheists a royal pain in the ass. Both of them are egotistical know-it-alls, and neither of them have anything more to go on than their faith. And they talk and talk and talk and talk and talk. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:13 PM

What is being discussed, argued, debated, explored and/or ranted about in this thread?

As I said in the thread's early days, When we discuss "God"'s existence, are we trying to speak of our opinion of the objective reality, or of whatever God we create, ourselves?

All the "there's no God" ranting in the world won't make THAT any more objectively true than all the ranting that there is so, a God. It's all opinion, and how you choose to live your life based on that opinion.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 11:56 AM

If there IS a god who sees all & knows all, he'll be laughing so hard at this sort of 'debate', that he'll cause warps in the space-time continuum and make it rain on the Sahara for 40 days.

It ain't worth it, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 11:55 AM

Amos - those are all good logical reasons I agree. For you. But I was wondering about 282RA's reasons to celebrate what most people consider a religious holiday. Why pick Christmas? Why not have a Menorah around the house?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 11:41 AM

Wesley:

See Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos - PM
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:24 AM


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 11:34 AM

Why do you celibrate Christmas?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 10:48 AM

>>Why is it that you are so lacking in any inclination to find common ground with someone after disagreeing about something, 282?<<

I only do that with you because we've gone through this before and nothing has changed. I'm not falling for it again. You and Don Firth have serious issues. This thread is an atheist thread and you two have attempted to turn it into "you atheists are so obnoxious" thread and then have the nerve to cry about how unreasonable and "evangelistic" I am. Btw, as I said before and which has been conveniently ignored, I DO NOT discuss religion with people in person. I simply do not.

We obviously have no common ground on this subject because in the end you will once again resort to your usual "I thought like you when I was young and stupid but I grew up too bad you didn't" garbage and I don't need to go through that again after thinking we had sorted that out. Obviously we haven't so let's just leave it at that.

>>All you're doing is telling me how awful I am. Am I supposed to be hurt, burst into tears, and run away and hide? ;-)<<

I don't care what you do. But I'm not going to go through this "hey we were saying the same thing after all" garbage because we aren't and the next thread someone popsts on this topic will prove it.

>>This is really just a sad performance on your part. Give up the grudge match. Try to find something we agree about instead.<<

We've gone through this before, Little Hawk. It's not going to work. Drop it. This was an atheist thread not a religious one so it is you and Firth who came here and made trouble not me.

>>And, hey, how did you find all those great quotes so quickly? Yowsa! Pretty cool. Where could you even find the time? ;-)<<

I'm on vacation.

>>Got a book of great quotes handy?<<

The Atheist's Bible. Picked up while Christmas shopping. Yes, I celebrate Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 09:57 AM

why, it's simple...a little bang wouldn't have scattered all that 'stuff' far enough, and the neighborhood would have been crowded.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 08:34 AM

I really do wonder why God decided there should be a big bang anyway!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:49 AM

Jim: "The existence of God is a theory which people choose to believe, and so is the the Big Bang theory." They are not the same, Jim. Both are not theories. A theory is a temporary conclusion arrived at, based on evidence, with the proviso that, if the evidence is questioned or if new evidence arises, then the conclusion may change. That is the scientific method (or one definition of it, anyway). Belief in the existence of God is not, therefore, a theory. It is a belief system, a dogma, if you like, because no amount of new information will change the conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:44 PM

What is being discussed, argued, debated, explored and/or ranted about in this thread?

Lots of common words that clearly hold different meanings for the various participants in this thread.



humanis vs ecological perspective, Substitute 'universal,' meaning all the universe (or universes) for ecological.

Consciousness - and follow the assorted links

Metaphor, especially the Discussion section, regarding meaning.

Meaning. See especially the Discussion of Meaning, and all subsections.

Definition and discussion of social institutions

Definitions of sacred

Religion

Joseph Campbell

Culture

definition of prejudice

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:28 PM

Evangelistic atheists.

bodad, if this thread wasn't started by an outright troll, then I'd say it was started by an evangelistic atheist. And our friend 282RA is most certainly an evangelistic atheist.

An evangelistic Christian is one who dedicates a good portion of his or her energies to trying to convert people to the Christian belief. An evangelistic atheist spends a good portion of his or her energies to trying to convert people to the belief that their is no God.

A fair number of scientists do believe in a God, but a large number do not believe in God. I don't know about those who believe in God (faith being what it is: belief without evidence), but I'm pretty sure that those who do not believe in God, if true scientists, would be willing to revise their opinions if they were presented with convincing evidence.

I don't think the same holds true for the evangelistic Christian or the evangelistic atheist. Both have faith that their belief is true. But neither knows.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 09:27 PM

"'Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt. --Clarence Darrow'"

                     Probably the biggest religious sin of them all.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,jim gillson
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 09:20 PM

Ok, guys. I just browsed my way to this thread. Here is what I think:
Nobody knows for sure if there is a God or not; nor do we know what
God is, if he or she or it does exist.

If we make the statement, "there is a God", or "there is no God", it
implies that we know our universe, the origins of and the development
of; and there is absolutely nothing left for us to research about our
universe, because we already know everything that happened. We don't.

The existence of God is a theory which people choose to believe, and
so is the the Big Bang theory. Why can't we all just believe what we
believe, not force anyone into our ways of thinking stating that
"our way is the right way"; and just get along? There shouldn't be
reason to argue the existence of God.

Quotation from this thread:
Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 07:28 PM

Mitt Romney says religion doesn't matter! (End Quotation)

True. Belief in God, and being part of a religion to have to be
synonymous to each other. You can believe in God, but have no religion. However, people see the flaws in organized religion, and always relate God to organized religion; which may mislead them into
thinking that God does not exist, because of the way religions portray God.
Organized religions are just stating what they think God is, what he
or she or it is about; but nobody knows what God actually is.

We all have our belief systems, but we shouldn't force ours on anyone
else. Well, that is pretty much it.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 09:11 PM

I was born again on halloween. I looked up and saw the Great Pumpkin. Believers get to eat that great pie in the sky.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 08:44 PM

Question: Does anyone actually believe in God?

This is a tougher question than you might think.

I don't mean...

1) That belief in God is to be defended, on principle.

2) That belief in God is wholesome.

3) That God is a concept that causes good behaviour.

4) That there is some unifying force, some vague principal (such as the Tao) which one might call God.

5) That Gospel music is nice to hear and sing.

In my life I have met hundreds, possibly thousands of people. Many claim to believe in God, but, when pressed, admit that they don't really. It's a social necessity, a political necessity, a mean of community cohesiveness.

If you believe in an anthropomorphic being who intercedes in human affairs; answers prayer; created the universe; and deals with souls after they die....
...if you believe all of that, then you believe in God.

Less than that is mere pretence, with no more depth or importance than a Hallmark card.

cheers
JFW

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 08:20 PM

Those who have strong opinions on the matter often push 'straw man' definitions of words like 'atheist'.

Yes...there can be those who are evangelical about denying religion, and who can be just as obnoxious as those who knock on doors to sell their version OF religion...but often, 'atheist' merely means NOT accepting the many claims of others. It is silly to judge someone by a word they use without asking what THEY mean by it.

(Amos said about the same thing up above)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: bobad
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 07:53 PM

"There are damned few people more aggressive and hostile than evangelistic atheists!"

Don, I really don't know what you are referring to by the term "evangelistic atheist." An atheist, by my definition, is someone who does not even consider the question to which "GOD" is the answer. Perhaps a more accurate slur might be "evangelistic anti-theist."