BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:28 PM

Mary, For all you know it might take 2 gods. Everything else in the Universe seems to support some kind of dualism for existence.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:22 PM

Finally at a loss for words, Amos? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Mary!
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:06 PM

I will repeat what i posted earlier today but for some unknown reason my post disappeared; There is only one God but with many different branches, only thing is they keep fighting each other!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:01 PM

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:00 PM

There are Christians and then there are Christians. Susan walks the walk AND talks the talk. That would put her on the side of the angels imo. I do not care particularly that Mother Teresa was Catholic. She would have been a 'saint' in any country. Good people are good people.

That said, I believe in G-d. It's religion(s) I don't have any truck with.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 05:54 PM

Epiphanies, demonstrations of other dimensions, feeling the ineffable...I've had em. I liked em too.
But I damn well am not going to start a new religion and make a fortune in the god business or invest my entire life to a single religion for answers.

Its the questions that linger that are most treasured.
Some of the questions may well have answers in our midst and others may not.

Tribalism, bigotry, fear and hate too easily lead the initiated and uninitiated alike into human conflict in the name of religiosity.
Even if it is a secular power like China seeking to destroy Tibetan Buddism.

Maybe a religion that address tribalism bigotry fear etc is needed.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 05:35 PM

Blow it off all you want, 282RA, but "they-ing" is the primary reason people are oppressing each other and killing each other all over the world. Always has been and probably always (at least until everybody kills everybody else off) will be.

Cramming a large part of the world's population into one conveniently labeled pigeonhole is a way of not having to bother to think.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 05:34 PM

"What they ended up doing is electing Ronald Reagan in 1980, and America has been on the skids since that time."

I'd rephrase this as "What they ended up doing is electing Richard Nixon in 1969, and America has been on the skids since that time"

Remember Dickie's "silent majority".

Dickie was also a Quaker ... hard to beleive.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bee
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 05:31 PM

Quote: "Bee, ???. Do you somehow assume that my husband and I ignore what is wrong in religion? That anyone whose "good works" you find acceptable must be making a choice to live with blinders on? What you are doing is tokenizing the Christians whose works you "approve" of.

Sometimes I think that the anti-religionists have more faith than I do. Their faith points in the other direction-- it's a faith that no matter what reality confronts you, you can still find justifcation to claim that evil is more powerful than goodness-- but it is so strong as to get along just fine without a lot of the logical thinking they seem to think is better than the kind of faith I live. I feel very sad for those of you living in that kind of reality.

~Susan

My initial thought is that you have mostly misread my post. I don't think I am 'tokenising' anybody. I think I am trying to point out that Christians 'tokenise', separating themselves from Christian wrongdoing by claiming to be 'not like that' or 'those wrongdoers aren't real Christians'. I'm saying own them - not 'you' meaning you personally Susan, but generically, 'you well-meaning tolerant Christians'. If some group or some preacher is part of the problem, and is not acting as a Christian, speak out. We have been complaining about this issue for years, that mainstream Christians rarely address the hysterical Christian fringe, and then complain when comparisons are made.

Your second paragraph, AFAICS, doesn't relate to anything I posted, and isn't true, either. I do not claim anywhere that evil is more powerful than good. No need to feel sad for me. I'm an optimistic person who expects most people on some level do try to do good, even if they get it wrong sometimes.

And that's it. Take it or leave it, it is what I think.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 04:44 PM

Yeah, that's right, Rinslinger...and it's NOT the fault of religion itself. It's the fault of unscrupulous politicians who have cynically used religious divisions in your society to drive a wedge between people. They did it for their own gain.

The same thing happens in Trinidad, I am told by my Trinidad friends, around every election campaign. While the Christians, Muslims, and Hindus in Trinidad normally get along very well...when election time rolls around the Trini politicians deliberately inflame the religious communities against each other by raising all sorts of divisive issues. They do it to get people voting in blocs, and it greatly harms the society.

That again is NOT the fault of religion...it's the fault of cynical politicians playing games of divide and conquer.

I would suggest that every time people in the USA fall for the temptation to demonize others because they ARE or ARE NOT religious, they are falling right into the trap that some of their politicians have set for them. They have been duped into becoming bigots so some jerk can get himself elected.

Most unfortunate.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 04:36 PM

"...American politicians have deliberately pandered to and encouraged such polarization in their efforts to manipulate the results at the polls."

            LH - I think Robert F. Kennedy has this one nailed. He explained in an interview I watched some time back that the true secular American conservatives couldn't get their program off the gound. There just weren't enough converts, as witnessed by what happened to Barry Goldwater in 1964. So they went after the religious right to bulk up their numbers and forged a coalition. That way the conservatives got power, and the RR got access to power.
          What they ended up doing is electing Ronald Reagan in 1980, and America has been on the skids since that time.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 04:35 PM

Well said, haddocker. You are correct that the various Hindu deities are simply aspects of the one Divine....which is not a human-like entity at all, but a principle which encompasses all of reality as we know it, and then some. In order that the common people could relate to that principle, it was clothed, so to speak, or translated into the various gods and goddesses, each of which was one of its attributes...like the facets on a diamond. This, people decided to do, in order that they could relate to what was in itself so large that it was completely incomprehensible.

It is itself indefinable, indescribable, and infinite. The infinite is everywhere, and everything is a part of it.

It is NOT the "God" that Guest, Ed is objecting to! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: haddocker
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 04:22 PM

Hmm...so many people talking about religion. Perhaps there is hope after all. What is important here is that the dialogue continues, for that is how we know that we are all connected to each other...different bodies...one soul. Ed, although I cannot give you empirical proof, other than a long anthopological history of cultures reaching higher and realizing that they don't have control over things like earthquakes, floods, rain, etc., after a long and challenging journey, I can tell you God does, in fact, exist. Do not call Him He, or She, or It, for God is beyond anyhting that you can imagine or explain. And do not imbue Him with things like anger, wrath,punishment or vengeance, or try to make Him into a deified version of man. He is not any of these. The only reason I use He, is because I need to speak in a language that has some sort of universal understanding. I can only tell you that if you seek to find God, you will find God.
    By the way, it is my understanding that the various Hindu Deities are not separate beings, but different aspects of the One Central Godhead. Any Hindus out there may correct me if I am wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 04:06 PM

This is clearly a USA problem, isn't it? ;-) I mean, look, if you were living in Canada or France or Great Britain, or Italy I don't think there'd be nearly so much polarization happening between people over religion. Matter of fact, I know there wouldn't be.

Perhaps it is partly because your American politicians have deliberately pandered to and encouraged such polarization in their efforts to manipulate the results at the polls.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:52 PM

We can "they" Muslims, we can "they" gays, we can "they" antiwar and prowar people, we can "they" blacks, we can "they" Jews, we can "they" anybody we want. We can "they" Christians. They've done too much fucking shit up and never having to explain themselves. Everybody else gets "they'd" so can Christians. Christians do more "they-ing" than anybody.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:47 PM

Invasion of the Bible thumpers! I love it!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:47 PM

Amazing how many people refer to Christians as simply "they." As if Christians were a monolithic group, all alike.

On the other hand, there are Christians who do the same thing with atheists and agnostics.

The world ain't that simple, folks!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:29 PM

I don't have much tolerance for religion but I don't really talk about it with people because they all get pissed off and what's the point?

But I've had it up to here with religious phonies. I really don't have problem with someone who goes to church and lives a quiet life and doesn't want to rock the boat too much--just lead a good, quiet life. That's fine.

I hate the activists. Why aren't we seeing a massive outpouring of Christians protesting the tobacco companies for example?? And I don't care if they're hardcore RW fanatics or the kinder, gentler variety. Where are they? These corporations are poisoning us--all of us, addicting people and laying 400,000 a year in their graves in America alone. I would play more open mic nights at the bars--they've asked me to and I would like to--but I cannot stand the smoke-filled rooms. Once every few months is all I can tolerate.

Where are the Christians trying to put the tobacco giants out of business? They can elect and reelect an asshole president, they can build gigantic churches, they can rake millions in donations every year and not pay a cent in taxes, they can own television networks, open state-of-the-art bible colleges, rant and rave endlessly about morality--but they can't get off their goddamn asses and put a truly immoral, destructive industry of ruthless drug pushers out of business. They can whine about Terri Schaivo lying comatose and brainless in her hospital bed but ignore all the ones hacking their lungs out in hospices waiting to die.

They can go into the street and lay down in front of abortion clinics and scream how life is sacred but they can't do that in front of R.J. Reynolds corporate HQ. They can shoot a doctor but not a tobacco exec whose doing everything in his power to addict your children and succeeding at it because no one's stopping him.

Don't talk to me about the good you do. SHOW ME! I'm sick of your shit.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:06 PM

Thet thar was no knee-jerk. Hit wuz an IED (improvised emotioonal device).

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 01:50 PM

And a lot of kneejerk reactions that, unfortunately, tend to land on nearby arses.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 12:37 PM

Lovely6 post, RR. Thanks.

The Onion has a take on the Richard Roberts scandal which is germane to what I was saying in an indirect, tongue-in-cheek way.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:51 AM

Anyone should be able to have a conversation about religion or their belief system without later having remorse about how they feel or what they may have said to angst someone else. Funny how defensive folks get when it does come to challenging their beliefs.

How one interprets religion is more than probably from past experience with that religion.
I have an example of that in my own life when I was young(er)

I was into Christianity and I loved Jesus. So much I wanted to become a minister myself. One day I approached my minister and told him this. His response was-"Women can't be ministers"
Well talk about shattered dreams.
That was a changing moment for me. I was angry. I thought what bullshit is this? Where is the equality and justice in this religion.
In hindsight, though, it actually was the best thing to happen to me because it journeyed me past the structured religion and sent me seeking for my own beliefs and spirituality.
What a journey I am on!!


I have been following this thread and it's been a good one. Lots of revelations and good discussion. People like to talk about religion and beliefs, so it seems. It's who we are after all, whether it be structured religion, philosophy or id.

Amos-Thanks for that link on Mark Morford-SF Gate. He is great!! I read his archives last night and find him delightfull!


Carry on good foks!
Peace.
Rustic


P.S.-Right now the good book to me is the dictionary! Tautology, solipsistic....

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:29 AM

I think at the bottom, one of the major causes of animosity against SOME religionist positions is the disavowal of the correct sources of things.

As anyone knows who has had his work stolen and used by others without due credit, it can be very embittering to have one's own source-hood denied or nullified.

Good works come from good people. So, ultimately, do good religions. The problem many people experience with religious cosmology is the notion that a Great Source, external to the being, should be acknowledged for all existence. This finds its ultimate expression in the ordinary dialogue of Muslims who, for example, greet all good news with "En'shallah", and who when spoken to of gratitusde for some favor, reply "Don't thank me, thank Allah." SOme Chriatian world-views are very similar. The whole notion that God has mysterious plans for you, and knows all, governs all, is the source of all, especially as it is often translated to small children, can easily become a very toxic and disempowering belief.

Granted it tries to offer an explanation for a set of phenomena that physics seems to have no answer to. But it seems patently clear that if the answers were closer to "truthiness" they would produce less arbitrary explosions, produce better results in application more broadly, and would not spin off so many radical alternative theories. Above all, they would aligbn with individual experience on a wider basis. BEing told that these analytical criteria need to be displaced by an act of faith is easily dismissed as copping a non-rational plea. While spiritual matters may not be measurable in the terms of phsyics itself, that is no reason why they should not be rational, and it often happens (because they often resort to authority alone as their fundamental) that the various religions we know of fail this test.

This is not to say that there is no such subject as spiritual matters; just that it has not been well-addressed in any demonstrable way, or at least has no widely used vocabulary that meets this test.

The theories of phlogiston and caloric fluid and aether and humors and the tides of the blood are all examples of parallel situations in the history of material science. The deathless line attributed to a London gentleman who attended the early presentation of the theory of circulation comes to mind. The young Dr. Harvey, who presented his research suggesting the hyeart was a pump and the veins, arteries and capillaries acted as pipelines for blood, was flying in the face of received wisdom going back to the ancient Greek father of medicine, Galen of Pergamum (AD 129 -c. 216), was a prominent Greek physician, whose theories dominated medical science for over 1300 years. So entrenched was the authority of Galen, who asserted the model of tides and humours, that this gentleman is alleged to have said "I would find it better to be wrong, but side with Galen, than to be right with Harvey.".

This is not to gainsay any of the good that comes from religous-based organization, nor to minimize any of the harm. People in every walk of life are often loopy, or spinny, or even whacky. But I think it is observable that when they have good data about their own situation they get a lot less loopy -- meaning data that matches up to experience and observation. And when they are working with bum data -- superstition, lies, authoritarian manipulations, false entities, distorted importances, or any other kind -- they tend to get even loopier. I could go on, but I doubt it will benefit any of us for me to rattle on.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:11 AM

See

Thats what happens when religiosity defines itself as the opposite of athieism. Good evil, with us or against us, life death.

It may only start as a created fear of the "other" but given very little time that fear turns into hate like wine turns to vinigar.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 10:32 AM

it's a faith that no matter what reality confronts you, you can still find justifcation to claim that evil is more powerful than goodness

Who claims that?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 10:25 AM

Any Reason?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 10:25 AM

Bee, ???. Do you somehow assume that my husband and I ignore what is wrong in religion? That anyone whose "good works" you find acceptable must be making a choice to live with blinders on? What you are doing is tokenizing the Christians whose works you "approve" of.

Sometimes I think that the anti-religionists have more faith than I do. Their faith points in the other direction-- it's a faith that no matter what reality confronts you, you can still find justifcation to claim that evil is more powerful than goodness-- but it is so strong as to get along just fine without a lot of the logical thinking they seem to think is better than the kind of faith I live. I feel very sad for those of you living in that kind of reality.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bee
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 10:17 AM

Why, Donuel?

Subject: THIS THREAD IS CLOSED
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 09:44 AM

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 09:28 AM

A coupla more folks in dire need of forgiveness have generated these stories. The good they have done someone vanishes behind the betrayal represented, fairly or not.


Legal battle finally ends for victim of priest abuse

Two decades after the woman first told of seven clerics having sex with her, and of one fathering her child, she receives $500,000 from the L.A. Archdiocese.

---

37-Month Sentence for Priest Who Defrauded Parish



By ALISON LEIGH COWAN
Published: December 5, 2007
NEW HAVEN, Dec. 4 — Telling him, "Not even the collar can protect you from prison," Judge Janet Bond Arterton ordered a 37-month sentence Tuesday for the Rev. Michael Jude Fay, the Roman Catholic priest who admitted pilfering $1.3 million from the church he had led in Darien.

Rejecting calls from Father Fay's supporters for an alternative sentence, Judge Arterton told a crowded courtroom in Federal District Court here, "A sentence of probation would be impunity for a crime of enormity." She said the priest's crime was "enormous" in terms of the amount taken and its impact on parishioners and the public trust.


By Susannah Rosenblatt, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
December 5, 2007
Rita Milla's story rocked the Archdiocese of Los Angeles when she first told it 23 years ago. Seven Roman Catholic priests, she said, had sexually abused her when she was a teenager, with one eventually fathering her child. The devout young woman who had once hoped to become a nun instead gave birth in secret in the Philippines.

On Tuesday, her decades-long legal battle came to an emotional end.

Looking somber and relieved, Milla received $500,000 from the archdiocese, part of a $660-million settlement between the church and hundreds of people alleging abuse by priests.

---

Good acts are good no matter what flag they may fly. So are harmful acts harmful, regardless of their club or colors.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bee
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 08:29 AM

It interests me that I see so many complaining that Dawkins is embarassingly agressive or loud or confrontational. Considering the vast numbers of noisy and belligerent preachers, imams, and so on, that populate the planet and shout out their condemnations, isn't it sensible that at least a few atheists make at least a little counter-noise?

To Susan:

There's no question that there are many preachers and ministers and priests who work hard and are genuinely compassionate towards people, as I am sure you and your husband are.

You may feel, when hearing from atheists and agnostics, that you personally are the babies being tossed with the bathwater. Perhaps you are, but that bathwater is very, very dirty, toxic, and needs to go. You babies need to have your parents (denominational leaders) clean that water up.

Especially in the US, of all developed nations, the stagnant bathwater of religion is visibly hindering more good than it is promoting. Research becomes controversial and funding for it endangered if it is seen to conflict with religious views based on the cultures of people centuries ago. Your countrymen won't elect a politician who doesn't subscribe to (or at least lies about) some form of God belief, thus eliminating many able persons. Religion informs continued legal and social discrimination against homosexuals. Religious leaders make wild or simply wrong pronouncements which are believed by thousands, if not millions, of your compatriots. Many individuals have had disastrous experiences as a result of their beliefs and the support of the church they belong to, ranging from refusing medical treatment to sexual abuse and harmful 'exorcisms'.

It's easy enough to distance yourself from these effects of religion, and say "We're not like that". Nevertheless, at centre, you are part of an enormous collective of God believers. Atheists make up a tiny percentage of the population of the US, and yet the religious often respond to atheists who speak out with anger and condemnation, and even some atheists feel threatened by noisy atheists.

I think it is entirely possible for non believers and believers to learn from each other; for the religious to see the non religious as offering checks and balances against the unreasoning excesses religion is capable of promoting. If we say the Emperor has no clothes, then perhaps you should check your garments, instead of immediately insisting that you are, in fact, clothed in raiment of silk and gold. From the religious, atheists can perhaps learn a thing or two about community, although I'd bet most of us are thoroughly involved with our communities already. (In my rural community, several of us unbelievers readily assist in church inspired events which we see as contributing to the good of the community: I've baked many a cookie, repaired stained glass for small recompense, and trotted out plates at suppers.) We can get along, but people need to think more and be defensive less.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 08:13 AM

Rather comical, actually. Some unknown guy posts a challenge; the first responses are...
"Who the heck are you to bait us??? Piss off!"

...and then gets hundreds of responses in a few days. Sounds like "guest ED" was feeling bored and decided poking a stick into a wasp's nest would be fun.

Oh, yeah the question. Is there a tea-tray in orbit around Jupiter? Very unlikely.

Are those who Believe there's tea-tray in orbit around Jupiter (and insist that others "respect" their insight) a major pain in the butt? Most definitely.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Keinstein
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 05:18 AM

Shurrup Slag, what do you knoww about it, who asked you? God is the Absolute, the Infinite, the Ultimate Cause, and it follows as night follows pigeon, that if you fail to believe in the absolute truth of chapter 3, verses 1 to 7 of the Book of Mercy things will go hard for you on the Day of Judgement.

Reason is not a tautology; it's simply the basis for any discussion that is not absolutely solipsistic. Otherwise you may as well take the Postmodern position that all descriptions are equally valid.

Faith is usefully defined as belief in a proposition that can not be proved. It's absolutely necessary to continue living. On the other hand, faith that is not a temporary position (until better proof is available) is dogma, and faith that goes in the face of evidence is destructive. I think it follows that faith should be confined to the bare essentials; belief in the approximate validity of the relative strengths of the gravitational and electromagnetic forces as now understood allows me to walk along the ground without fearing suddenly falling through it to the centre of the Earth.

There are no apparent consequences accruing from lack of belief another's subjective understanding of the ultimate nature of the universe that would affect the life of an individual- though there may well be consequences from showing that you don't believe them.

I wouldn't want to enter a building designed by an engineer who didn't believe in physics. I wouldn't trust to a microbiologist who didn't appreciate evolution. An astronomer who believes that the heavenly bodies are pushed around by angels, or that the distant galaxies were formed in 4004BC would be less than useful. A psychiatrist who belives in demons should not be in charge of a mental hospital.

Non- overlapping magisteria... if you don't claim that religion (or other speculation) has effects in the physical universe, it doesn't overlap with science. That of course is not the same as saying it has any actual field of application- particularly the moral.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Slag
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:58 PM

Truly an amazing discussion! No one has defined their terms. Yet everyone continues to attack or defend just as though the other(s) understands what he means by the term "God" "faith" "reason" etc. It's like a storm-trooper wild monkey knife fight.

Hint faith in "reason" is still "faith". Reason's ultimate appeal is to reason, a tautology if ever there was one.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:29 PM

LH & #6 - It's a wonderful song. It really shouldn't offend anyone, but it does, sadly.


                  Susan - My new book came out a week or so back. The title is "Invasion of the Bible Thumpers." It can be located on Amazon.con, Barnes & Noble.com, and a number of other places.

                  I firmly believe you feel you are doing the right thing.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:25 PM

Yes LH ... he did cover a lot of ground in that song ... and just a simple little song it is.

It's not what is right, or what is wrong .... just imagine ... just imagine .... and then maybe, just maybe "we could rise above all these things and treat each other as equals?"

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:12 PM

Yes, he covered a lot of ground there...religious divisions, political and national divisions, and divisions inspired by greed and materialism of every kind.

You see, religion in itself is not the problem. National identity in itself is not the problem. Material goods and private ownership in themselves are not the problem. People's negative or excessive use OF religion and nationalism is the problem. Greed for more material things than one needs, and the willingness to do harm to others to get those goods, is the problem.

It always comes down to people's behaviour...good or bad. That is the determinant. And their behaviour is inspired by their beliefs, of course...but the same set of professed beliefs can often inspire excellent behaviour in one person and awful behaviour in the next...so it is the interpretation and use of beliefs that is vital. Do they have a mature understanding of their belief..or a caveman's understanding of it, that's the question? If it's the latter, then they can be quite dangerous under certain circumstances...as with the raging crowds that gathered in the Sudan, calling for that English teacher's blood over the naming of a teddy bear! The more mature Muslims who were actually in some of the positions of authority there had the sense to realize that she had intended no real offence, and they simply pardoned her and sent her back to England. In the hands of the street mob, she would have been killed. There's the difference.

John Lennon's song serves as an interesting parable...saying, "What if we could rise above all these things and treat each other as equals?"

It proposes something so far from ordinary human consciousness that it can't be seen as literally possible, but rather as a symbolic lesson, a signpost which might make people think and question their customary divisions.

Subject: Lyr Add: IMAGINE (John Lennon)
From: number 6
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:48 PM

For years I always thought the following was a silly, dreamer's song. Lately I'm beginning to understand exactly what John was feeling when he wrote it ... I guess I've just become a silly dreamer in my old age.

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:40 PM

I beg my friends' pardon-- that last post is addressed to Riginslinger, and only Riginslinger.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:38 PM

Spend a day actually working alongside those of us in the ministry and be sure to tell us how many people we screw up. Here area few snapshots for you to enjoy trying to poke holes in:

The young hockey team whose bus rolled down an embankment last week, for ewxample, to whom we're taking a bag of totally silly Christmas goodies guaranteed to make their next (scary) bus ride more fun and perhaps just a little stress-relieving.

The people who will be fed without question or religious comment from the generosity of our parish, their baskets delivered by hubby and I so no one else needs to see who is on the receiving end this year.

The unwed mother whose Christmas "bonus" will be fat this year because she's moving downstate to be closer to the child's dad, where she will complete her degree and continue to work fulltime-- who happens to be our waitress about once a week.

The cancer patients we spend time with.

The older couple down the road whose adult kids emailed me again today with fresh concerns because they know the dear old folks actually confide in us as friends, about their worries, so they ask us what we think about it all because we give it to them straight.

The family for whom my husband left a small Mudcat Gathering at our home last time, to offer comfort to the parents whose son had leapt from their moving SUV at 70MPH, over a guardrail, to land on the rocks about 5 stories below-- people we'd never met, never asked if they go to church, never will see again.

The lady in my aquatics class today who needed to talk about the extraordinary blessing she feels it is to volunteer in hospice care, whose family lives far away and who is a vigorous 80-year-old asskicker from Memphis, but lonely with no family here.

Yeah-- lives ruined, forever, because of our ministries. ;~) (How are YOUR contributions to world peace going?)

Eat that.

Later this week I'll leave the house at 5AM to drive downstate (at my own expense) and back in one day with 7 hours driving and 2 hours of meeting time, to interview some MORE people who would like to go into the ministry. I'll tell them you're out there, along with a whole lot of people just like you. I'll ask them what they think about sad individulas like yourself who only know negativity.

Merry Christmas! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:43 PM

For those of us who see religion as the root of all evil, maybe the bigges problem is the constant chorus of belieivers who keep telling us to be tolerant of their religion.

             We, of course, think they are destroying humanity and the entire planet we live on in the process.

             It's a lot like asking Al Sharpton to be tolerant of racism.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:34 PM

L.H.---That's beautiful. ---------- Right now it is dawning on me that it's the effects/fallout from the "beliefs" of others that have impacted negatively on my life, and on some of those lives close to me. I seem to be transferring my downer baggage to so many with faith here in these kinds of threads. At least I am seeing, now, some of what I've been doing. To say the least, that was totally unfair. I truly am sorry you people have had to put up with that.
Onward,
Art

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 08:37 PM

Doug Chadwick, your post misses the point. Belief affects the believer and those whom the believer's behaviour (which is a result OF his beliefs) directly impacts. Your two men standing in the rainy field are both affected by their beliefs, in that they perceive the same situation differently ("It's raining." "No, it isn't." "I'm dry!" "No, you're not, you're all wet!"), they are prepared to argue about it, and they may even come to blows over the matter! ;-) One of them might suffer a fatal injury, due to their disagreement. Or perhaps he might sue the other for damages. Therefore, their beliefs DO have an effect...not on the rain (or the lack of it), most likely not on the field either, but upon themselves and each other and their families, and possibly their descendants as well.

And that is the power of belief. Even a completely unrealistic and ill-founded belief has power to sway the minds of men, and can move them to action...with very discernable effects on the world.

Hitler believed that Germans were the "master race". It was a belief in a complete fiction...but just look at the effect it had on the world. A large number of Americans believed that Saddam Hussein had WMDs in 2003 AND was responsible for 911. That had an effect on the world too.

Believing in unreal things can have enormous effects, first on people and THEN on the world, as I think you know... ;-) That's precisely why some people object to organized religion. It's also why people object to stupid political agendas, false advertising, and a host of other things.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 07:22 PM

Peace, that was a great line!

Art, ...I am sorry, Susan and others, if I have been unfeelingly judgmental here....

I think what is so hurtful is that a thoughtless comment can so quickly makes me want not to know the person who made the remark, any further, because it says so strongly that this thoughtless person cannot possibly know me at all, and therefore never will be able to know me. Even in the midst of what I might have thought was a nice start on a friendship, to have said what they've said... the reaction is, "Oh. I get it-- they never saw me."

There are some ways in which the thoughtless comment can just entirely stall any desire for further discourse. Not because I fear I'll get hurt again, but because that depth of cluelessness, defended, seems to make it clear how and where I can better prioritize my time, my thoughts, my explorations, my discoveries... my SELF. It puts that other person, for me, squarely into the camp of those who may need my help at some point-- and I do not mean merely spiritual help-- and who are not going to be candidates for a 2-way friendship on an equal footing-- that person can only be, if I allow it that is, my client. Because if their thinking is so eaten up by their past hurts that they do not see.... me.... at all, they will probably never catch up to be in sync with me, in the future. (I prefer not to conduct friendships on the basis of whose needs are screaming loudest most of the time.) They will always be, for me, that person whose hurts wre bigger than their ability to see the present and be with me in that present.

So... apology accepted, with gratitude. I guess maybe an apology is a sign that it may be worth keeping an eye out to see if the apologizer's future actions match the maturity of the apology.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 06:42 PM

The master guards the sheepfold bin
And he wants to know, "Is my sheep brung in?"
And he's callin, callin,
Callin' softly---softly callin'
For them all to be gatherin' in.

To me, this isn't a religious song at all.
It IS simply just about inclusion. Like: "We're in the same boat, brother." The admirable philosophy of the shepherd is not to discriminate just because some might delete the black sheep from the group for whatever reason.

Believe me folks, this song illustrates aspects of my own life graphically. I have a very hard time with people who ostracize and exclude others when, with a little good will and effort, they might reap the good from knowing those they excommunicate so glibly.

That is a large reason I enjoy Mudcat. We are here in spite of our differences.

My big fault is that, when I feel hurt by a post, I shoot from the lip way too quickly. I'm with Frank. And I am sorry, Susan and others, if I have been unfeelingly judgmental here.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 05:51 PM

Ed:

What was your question? "Can anyone offer proof that God exists" ? or something on that line.

If so, forget it. Your premises are self contradictory in their nature. If that doesn't make sense to you, you aren't actually equipped to ask the question in a meaningful way.

I do not say this because I am a theist -- I am not. But I say it because I respect the individual and his discoveries beond the realm of the already-known, whatever universe they may be seeking in.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 05:24 PM

It's gone waaaaay past whatever your question was, Ed. It's moved on to important stuff now.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 05:14 PM

Anyone able to answer my question yet?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 04:37 PM

Two men are standing in a field. One believes he is in the middle of a deluge. The other believes he is in the middle of a drought. No matter how strong their beliefs, it won't affect the weather. Both men will end up just as wet.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 04:06 PM

I went through a period sometime recently where I was a little too beligerent when it
came to the discussion of religion. I have met some fine people who I admire that have their religious beliefs inform their behavior in positive ways. If I have offended any of these people, I apologize profusely.


Why Frank, I am not sure what to say.... I certainly appreciate that you said this, and publicly too (which is why I am responding to it publicly). I was offended, and I really wondered what bug you had up your butt about it, because until the surprising posts you reference above, I had always had so much respect for you that I can't even say.... and your post now, above, fulfills what I might have expected from you, and your change of view is deeply welcome. And of course, though we have never met, I accept your apology; I look forward to making your acquaintance some day through music.

~Susan