BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 09:51 AM

... To quote what Janie quoted, "atheist thought split into two traditions: one primarily concerned with the dispassionate pursuit of truth, the other driven by a visceral contempt for the personal faith of others".

I have no objection to the former attitude. Bill D exemplifies the former. I am very annoyed by the latter attitude...and it is what I refer to as aggressive fundamentalist atheism...as it is based not so much on a desire for truth as a desire to attack other people, discredit them, tear down their beliefs, and dominate them.

It is that same attack and dominate impulse that often poisons discussions on this forum... and it's a function of the warring ego, not of the dispassionate search for truth.

It's the desire to promote one's own identity at the expense of someone else's, for nothing other than gratification of one's urge to "win", to crush, to conquer, and be SEEN by everyone as having won...

Up to that point, I agree.

I think LH is channeling me. :~) That certainly IS the way so many "religion" discussions hereabouts FEEL and SMELL. Thanks for saying it so clearly, LH. (I think you're distilling what you've been saying in long form for years.)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mooh
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 09:27 AM

The creed usually covers most of what I need to believe, up until this thread of course. Now, given the number of times I've logged on and read this thread, I think I believe in Trolls.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 09:02 AM

I quite agree, Mrr, but I'm kinda up in the air about which "side" is the idiocy.

Lots of scientists -- damned good ones, Nobel prize winners -- see no incompatibility between their religious beliefs and what their science demonstrates. I find it rather comforting to know that the elements from which I'm made were formerly parts of stars and other things in the Universe and that this body will eventually return those elements for re-use -- and participate in this whole discussion again.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Mrr (at work)
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:47 AM

What I don't understand is why people, intelligent people, who understand that the world is real and that the supernatural isn't, think that other people have a RIGHT to be stupid. Intelligent thought ought not to be a privilege, but the normal state of affairs. I respect other's opinions only when they are informed (the opinions, that is). I see no reason to respect idiocy.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stu
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:47 AM

The fundamental nature of this argument means there will never be any agreement. A scientist will need clear, reproducible and quantifiable evidence of the existence of God before they will be convinced of God being real.

The theist on the other hand will not offer any proof of this kind because they think that would be a denial of faith, blasphemy or whatever. A scientist might point out this is a basic flaw in their argument for the existence of God, the believer will say it shows the strength of their conviction (which it may well do, though I think this misses the point).

Thus we have no solid evidence (in the public domain at least) proving the extraterrestrial provenance of UFOs, the plesiosaur theory of the Loch Ness Monster or the possibility of the chupacabra being responsible for the deaths of goats across South America. Or in fact, the existence of God.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 06:53 AM

Hi shimrod, Like George, I have not and never will try to push my religious views, or lack of them, on anybody. You said that the burden of proof was with the theist. In response I said "the burden of proof is with the one postulating the theory" with which you disagreed.

I don't really see how, in this circumstance, you can disagree. 'Guest, Ed' started the thread on the premise that there were no gods. He then exppected someone to prove him wrong without first providing any proof whatsoever of his theory. This is not how either scientific or logical debate works? Surely if the protagonist wants some logical debate he should, out of courtesy, provide some himself first?

I am happy for you to disagree and will not pursue the point, but that is the way I always understood these things should work. Maybe I am just old fasioned!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stu
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 05:07 AM

I think Dawkin's gets up peoples noses because he's like the little boy who pointed out the Emperor was in the all-together. I agree with Little Hawk his style is a little confrontational, but some people don't want to engage in robust debate of the style academics like Dawkin's and his ilk enjoy.

The ad hominem arguments of people of faith is often bewildering to people who rely on empirical evidence and reasoning to. The retort 'because I know it to be true' is seen as being superstition at best, self-delusional (as the excellent cartoon above says) at worst.

This subject is important because so many of those in charge of our lives claim some sort of divine influence on their lives and their decision making process. If you don't believe the same thing, then this can be alarming and the fact someone is using apparently supernatural means as a form of guidance is worrying to many people. Of course, those of a religious bent who take public office and then claim to hear the voice of God had better be careful - no-one likes a charlatan and those who claim the Decalogue as the foundation of their moral beliefs better stick to them (Bush of course saw 152 people executed when he was Governor of Texas, including mentally ill people - 'thou shalt not kill' means sod all to him obviously).

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 04:20 AM

I'm with Amos in terms of his opinion on Dawkins.

as for, "I went through the "religion is all a bunch of crap" mindset when I was a teenager..."

Yes, so did I and so, probably, did many people. What was particularly interesting about 'The God Delusion' is that it prompted me to re-visit that mindset and to find in it, on mature (maturer?) reflection concepts which cannot (and probably should not) be ignored.

Dawkins examines in detail many religious beliefs (particularly Bible based Christian beliefs) and finds in them many apparent absurdities and inconsistencies (not to mention the shocking inhumanity embodied in many passages in the Old Testament). He then goes on to ask, given the central role that religion demands for itself in many of our societies, and given that many religious people can only invoke 'blind faith' in justification for their beliefs when challenged, why should we afford those beliefs so much customary respect? Surely, an 'elephant in the room' question if there ever was one!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Slag
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 02:53 AM

The constituent elements of our physical beings have been in existence ever since existence (granting symmetry) and all indications are that those same elements will continue on until there is no more existence, if that ever happens. It is just for this short little time in this tiny little place that said elements are imbued with what we call consciousness or self awareness but what a miraculous thing that awareness is. Where did it come from? With out it would there be no witness that any of this existed at all ( even if it is a debatable subject)? That is one point of view. Behold the soul of Man.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 10:54 PM

I suggest to you that he is far more serious than your soundbite implies, and he is a strong porponent of the sheer awe that comes with appreciating the facts of the world and the cosmos, which he would say far exceeds the awe that passes for religion in many instances. Further, he understands and discusses in detail the nature of the ordinary miracles that make up the world as it is and the evolution which brought it here in a most enlightening manner. He is a far cry from a mere decrier of all religions, even though he does get a bit heated about the toxic nature of some theisms, and your shorthand does him a serious disservice. I recommend "The Blind Watchmaker" and "The Selfish Gene" for starters.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 10:27 PM

Right on, LH.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 10:25 PM

Yes, Nick. Every male being is a son of Life itself...therefore a son of God. Every female being is a daughter of Life itself...therefore a daughter of God. That's my take on it.

I don't think Jesus ever intended to be set apart from everyone else as the ONE and ONLY Son of God. I think that was an idea spread later by some of his followers, and by the churches they founded in his name. He wasn't there (in the physical) at that point to set people right about it, so they went ahead and arranged it the way they wanted it, for various reasons.

Just my opinion, okay? It's what seems most likely to me.

Amos, no, I haven't gotten around to reading Mr Dawkins yet. Why? His general premise (going by what I hear about him) just doesn't interest me enough to bother looking into it. There are a lot of other things I'm more likely to read before I get around to reading him. I mean, hell, I went through the "religion is all a bunch of crap" mindset when I was a teenager...and that was a long time ago. I think I've outgrown such crass and prejudicial attitudes, hopefully.

To quote what Janie quoted, "atheist thought split into two traditions: one primarily concerned with the dispassionate pursuit of truth, the other driven by a visceral contempt for the personal faith of others".

I have no objection to the former attitude. Bill D exemplifies the former. I am very annoyed by the latter attitude...and it is what I refer to as aggressive fundamentalist atheism...as it is based not so much on a desire for truth as a desire to attack other people, discredit them, tear down their beliefs, and dominate them.

It is that same attack and dominate impulse that often poisons discussions on this forum...and it's a function of the warring ego, not of the dispassionate search for truth.

It's the desire to promote one's own identity at the expense of someone else's, for nothing other than gratification of one's urge to "win", to crush, to conquer, and be SEEN by everyone as having won...to symbolically destroy another person. It's warfare, and warfare has two objectives: murder and victory. (in this case, the "murder" being a psychological murder, not a physical murder)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nick E
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 09:53 PM

Are there sons of god?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 09:41 PM

>>Can I suggest that the 'Burden of proof' lies with either side..ie whoever is trying to prove or disprove has it!<<

No. The burden of proof is NEVER on the one who must prove a negative because it is impossible.

Such as "Prove you don't have weapons of mass destruction."

That alone should tell you why these little rules of debate must be followed meticulously.

Funny how you all forget that when it's not applied to Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 08:37 PM

If I tried to shove my beliefs down your throat you might well choke on them.

And rightly so.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 08:35 PM

From an article by Damon Linker in The New Republic, regarding Dawkins and others:

Journalists have dubbed this combative style of challenging religious belief "the new atheism." To the extent that the appellation is meant to highlight the novelty of virulently anti-religious ideas finding a mass audience in the United States, it is certainly fitting. But, as a description of the style of unbelief itself, it demonstrates a striking lack of historical awareness. That's because "the new atheism" is not particularly new. It belongs to an intellectual genealogy stretching back hundreds of years, to a moment when atheist thought split into two traditions: one primarily concerned with the dispassionate pursuit of truth, the other driven by a visceral contempt for the personal faith of others.

The entire article is here.

LH, as is so often the case in theses discussions, I find your observations throughout this thread to be spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 07:38 PM

I've watched Dawkins debate on TV, and I have to say, I don't like his confrontational style much. He is an intelligent guy, but he 'hardens' his opposition in awkward ways.

It is strange to find myself agreeing with some of his basic points, but wishing he'd just SHUT UP at times.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 06:52 PM

LH:

How much of his work have you read?


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:56 PM

Well, it is a normal thing to show respect for other people when you're in their house (figuratively speaking). It isn't their beliefs you are then showing respect for, necessarily, it's they themselves that you are showing respect for by not judging them on the basis of their beliefs and not interfering in the normal things that they are accustomed to doing in their own house...by according them their right to be whom they choose to be.

It's what you would want them to do if they were in your house (again, figuratively speaking).

Now, when fanatics and fundamentalists try to shove their religious beliefs down someone else's throat...well, then it bothers me just as much as it does you, I assure you!

I don't care what religion people belong to...or whether they have no religion at all...I just care about whether they are willing to live and let live and not force their own beliefs on everyone else. When they do that, they've crossed the line.

My feeling with Dawkins is that he's an anti-religious fundamentalist. He's got a big chip on his shoulder about the whole thing, and it causes him to see only the bad aspects of religion. As such, he's deeply prejudiced, in my opinion. Such people are troublesome, whether or not they are religious.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:41 PM

Hi George,

Of course I'm not accusing you of anything! If you happen to have a religious faith then fine - that is none of my business and I certainly don't begrudge you it. Neither, to my knowledge, have you ever tried to force any sort of belief on me (I think we've only been in the same room once - and we weren't even introduced!).
Trouble is the world seems to be full of religious fundamentalists who seem to want to thrust their particular beliefs down everyones' throats. On reflection I probably shouldn't have read Richard Dawkin's book, 'The God Delusion'. I suppose that book crystallised the uneasiness I've felt about (organised) religion since childhood. Why do we afford all these weird and (often not so) wonderful beliefs such respect? I've spoken in hushed tones in Anglican cathedrals, taken my shoes off in mosques in Yugoslavia and Turkey and taken off my hat in the precincts of Buddhist temples in Thailand. But I've done all these things out of respect for the local people - not out of respect for their beliefs. On the other hand why do they assume that their particular (unproven and unsubstantiated) beliefs should automatically demand respect?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:29 PM

I think I would rather enjoy seeing some I know go overboard.

Out past the 100-fathom curve, for starters.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Slag
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 03:29 PM

Rather artless, Art.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 02:30 PM

Slag, I did feel your tongue in-between my "cheeks" -- Here is a quote from Amon Hennesey via Utah Phillips:

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what's right and wrong."

No, you are correct. The Ten Commandments are, in the main, just common sense too. I reserve the right to dislike authority figures when I see 'em going overboard/waterboard. ;-)



Art

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 11:57 AM

Well, the comics in the Washington Post are getting weirder every year! They hired a new comics editor a few years ago whose taste is 'interesting'.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 11:51 AM

Man, that is one heck of a weird looking comic. We don't have that one in any of the newspapers around here.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 11:48 AM

what I found in todays Sunday comics

(Note...above mentioned cartoon does not 'prove' anything....it merely is an eloquent expression of one point of view. Or maybe two - hard to say.)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 11:07 AM

Harry was a Good Christian. He tithed, he gave to charities he found worthwhile, he supported missionary activity overseas, he went to Church twice on Sundays, read the Bible every night for an hour, and in short did everything he was supposed to do and more.

And he was very, very successful. A lovely home, several hundred million in the bank (all honestly earned), a great and loving family of good looking and intelligent kids, a wonderful wife.

And then...one day, his office phone rang. His house was on fire and it probably couldn't be saved.

He left immediately, of course. On the way, his cell phone rang. It was his lawyer -- his partner had stolen the company AND Harry's fortune. Harry was destitute. But he accepted it as God's will.

Screeching to a stop outside his driveway, he ran to his house but was grabbed by two cops. His house was a total loss and his family had been inside when the gas furnace exploded. They were all dead.

And then he remembered that he hadn't paid the insurance.

Devasted, Harry dropped to his knees in the mud that had been his front lawn and lamented, "Why, Oh Lord? I keep Your commandments, I follow the rules You have laid down. Why me?"

And a cloud formed and lightning shot out of it and a voice like thunder replied, "Because you piss Me off!"

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 10:48 AM

I enjoyed the story about Norman, Don! ;-D First good laugh of the day, that was. I bet there have been a few people around with that sort of problem.

The thing about free will is....you have got to USE it effectively! Otherwise it's no good for anything. Deciding to wait for a sign is a decision, of course, but it's not a decision that leads in any useful direction or is likely to yield any useful result, generally speaking.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 08:29 AM

Skarpi is deeply correct.

As ye seek...

so shall ye find.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: skarpi
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 06:02 AM

So guest ed , have you found it ?? you wont find it in here , that I can tell you .

all the best Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Slag
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 02:28 AM

Guest (Dean?): I'm sure Art took it in the vein, in which I intended to deliver it, i.e., tongue-in-cheek! Intent, 95% humor, 4 and 3/4% sarcasm,.00025% mixed fractions. Point being an unsubstantiated baseless opinion started this thread and such a gutless remark doesn't deserve serious consideration. Other threads of similar topic and a much more sober treatment have graced the Cat and are available for any and all to see, provided the haven't been censored.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:35 PM

I believe Little Hawk has the right of it.

In the meantime—

Norman was quite devout. He wanted to spend his life doing God's will. But he didn't know what God's will was. So he waited for God to show him a Sign. From his late teens to his middle forties, he sat out on his back porch and watched the sky.

Then one summer night, a meteor came hurtled down and landed about two hundred yards from his back porch, struck the ground with a horrendous explosion, shattered all the windows in the back of the house, and blew Norman right through the screen door and into his kitchen.

When he regained consciousness, he went out and discovered that the meteor had dug a two-hundred foot crater. It was still glowing dully, and emiting smoke and steam.

Poor Norman is in a quandary. The Sign was certainly quite emphatic, but he can't quite interpret it. He still doesn't know what God wants him to do with his life. But he figures it must be something pretty important.

He still sits on his back porch, wrinkling his brow and scratching his head.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:22 PM

Nope.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 10:36 PM

Bert, my Bert-- I ALWAYS get my man. Theyr'e lucky I give thought to what I'm gonna DO with them, but I always get 'em. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 10:28 PM

Christians should've come down on me hard and demanded my execution when I glued a 4-inch tall metal Tyrannosaurus Rex to the dashboard of our Volkswagen bus back in '67. I named it Sister Mary Godzilla and It protected us and that car for quite a while. ;-)

Art

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 09:47 PM

No, religion doesn't claim to transcend everything we do...it claims to be about something that transcends everything we do. ;-)

The large picture, in other words.

Example: In a game, like chess, you make a lot of moves and a lot of thinking, those are the things you DO when playing chess....but surely the original mind(s) that conceived of and created the game of chess itself, not to mention all the other games and the whole rest of life outside of the game of chess, transcend(s) what you do within the mere limits of any one game, correct?

Our lives are brief and limited, quite petty in relation to the larger existence all around us. That larger existence transcends the events of our lives. Religion is about relating to that larger existence. It may or may not posit a "God". It may simply posit a transcendent reality rather than a personalized, human-like God. It is one way in which people attempt to explain what they can never fully grasp...the infinity of existence itself, and the apparent endlessness of time and space. Philosophy is another way we try to grasp the transcendent. Meditation is another way. The more advanced religions contain a great deal of philosophy AND meditation (or contemplation), and that's what gives them merit...not a bunch of silly little petty cultural rules about what to eat on Friday or how long to wear your hair or how many people you should marry or whether or not you should eat pork or how many times you need to pray in one day or what you shouldn't name a Teddy bear.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bert
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 09:45 PM

Oh nice one ~Susan. Bill can't argue with that 'cos we've met her.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 09:19 PM

Rapaire--you could start a thread, 'The Dogs of God." We could all then discuss that book.. Yes, that is an authentic title.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 08:52 PM

God DID send an angel to Bill, and Bill promptly made friends with her. Bill's like that. :~)

(hi Bill)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 06:48 PM

"The desire to control transcends religion."

Ah - gotta challenge - doesn't religion claim to transcend everything we do?

But of course if religion is something man made up to control others... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 06:20 PM

Oh, DO! LOL! And add in brackets (not even Lassie).

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 06:03 PM

I am having a terrible time NOT starting a thread called "There aren't any Dogs."

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:57 PM

Autism does not exist! that is
...without a human to claim that it exists, along with the definitions and tests of autism provided by the human.

ergo...God/s don't exist without...etc.

But I understood the first time around that being asked to prove a negative is a trollish exercise in passionate futility.

_______________________________________________________________

Mistaking a people with vastly superior technology as Gods is a grand mistake right up there with "never wage a land war in Asia".
but we are likely to make it again and again.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:44 PM

Shimrod, I don't know if you were being specific with the use of "you", or generalising, but in any case, I don't think I have tried to push anything on you, either belief in a system or the opposite. In fact, I have made no reference to my own view on the matter, or to yours. All I am concerned about is GUEST, Ed's manner of stating boldly "this is so - if you don't like it, prove the opposite", in which the opening post was couched, without providing any evidence to back the statement.

If the post had said "ADS/autism/etc etc does not exist; if you believe different, prove it", would one have reacted differently, and if so, why? Not only that, but a number of people would - rightly - have been offended. This was no different. Don't be surprised then if some people were offended in this case, and others simply find it a silly question.

Challenging anyone's religious belief's, especially uninvited, IMHO is but a first step on a road that leads to jihad and the like. A bit of sensitivity goes a long way.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:40 PM

Hey I was visited by a thunderbolt less than 2 years ago.

I don't reccomend it.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:33 PM

Bill D has asked for it, God. Give Bill him the works! I suggest a visit by some Angels or a little thunderbolt. Maybe a burning bush on his front lawn. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Frogprince
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:14 PM

"I have been saved, by the grace of God" Sometime back a contributor who was either an unrelenting troll or had mental problems insisted that Little Hawk is actually a fundamentalist Christian. I thought he was wrong; but there, ladies and gentlemen, is the quote from the Hawk that proves him right...

"Art! How right you are! We don't need to be keeping no stinking rules! No dogma! No "love your neighbor as yourself" No "thou shalt not murder, steal, lie!" Right on! No more stinking RULES! Art for president! Art for God! Art for art's sake!"

Slag, if you really think that response to Art was appropriate, I submit that you've taken what Art said out of the whole context of his whole life and being as completely as I just took Little Hawk's words out of context.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:14 PM

Oh, Hi there, God! Nice of you to drop in. I have a few questions about some technical details if you have a few minutes....eons.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,GOD
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:04 PM

YES THERE ARE

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 03:45 PM

Well, spiritual freedom and personal sovereignty are precious commodities, I am sure; and those who corrupt them directly with fatuous falsehoods, or bizarre diatortions of importance, and so on, are the most to be instinctively shunned. This includes television advertisers, drug companies, and SOME religious "spokespersons", depending on their nature and bent.

A