BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: skarpi
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:55 AM

my Irish friends , say no to the Lisbon treat ,
EU is not good.
The farming industry is down in EU countrys, farmes throwing
away milk and other goods......

the Fishing industry is ruin ........ in all countrys
I wonder why ........

Never ever vote for EU ,. say no to the treat and say no to EU .
Icelandic people are angry at EU for how they responce to us
when we landed beside Osama bin laden on that list .
this goes on long list of non forgetin things . but its the doin of the coverment not the people of UK, .

urrrrrrrrrr

kv Skarpi Iceland .

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:45 AM

Good Soldier Schweik, may I first point out that there is really no need to shout or even remind me that you are an Englishman living in Ireland.

While I would dearly love to see the narrow gague Schull and Skibbereen railway once more trundling over the magnicent Ballydehob it really is about as likely as re opening all the other non profit making branch lines that were scrapped in the UK a long time before the advent of the EU

So what has the EU done for Iarnród Éireann?

In the mid-1990s EU money was being spent on rail infrastructure, but there was little state funding, other than significant revenue support for socially desirable services the railway was obliged to provide

'The infrastructure was getting older,' explained Pat Mangan, who was appointed Assistant Secretary at the Department of Transport in June 1995. 'Safety was becoming an increasing issue. If you've got to reduce speeds all the time, you get a poorer service. We couldn't continue as we were.'
'Through the 1990s the EU money that came in was absolutely crucial,' says Mangan.
In 1998 €51m of EU funding was allocated to increase capacity in the Dublin area, through infrastructure work and the purchase of rolling stock. A further €15m was allocated to main line track upgrading.
The EU 2000-06 investment programme provided €300m.

Why the the English - or any of the other members of the EU - not vote on the treaty?

Only Ireland is bound by its constitution to hold a referendum.

You asked, in loud capitals, if I understoof the Lisbon Treaty - I might throw that back at you and ask how many of the people who will be voting actually do?

to quote The Irish times on Monday

"IT IS likely that when many voters turn out for the referendum on October 2nd the detailed specifics of the Lisbon Treaty may not be weighing most heavily on their minds
It is the nature of the referendum process for good or ill. Some will cast their votes because they believe we should be more or less involved in the EU
Some simply on the basis that they trust the supporters of one side more. Yet others, one fears, because they feel the Government deserves to be punished

In the history of European treaties Lisbon ranks lowly in terms of its impact on the shape of the EU and its politics. No great projects here, no single currency, no single market, it is mainly a series of incremental changes to institutional and decision-making structures, a few new jobs, a reaffirmation of core values and the setting out of some new political priorities, most notably relating to climate change

The treaty also enhances accountability and transparency by giving national parliaments new powers over legislation, opening to the public ministers' meetings when they are legislating, and creating a new citizens' initiative system.

(It)…….is not permitted, to encroach on areas of sovereignty that were of particular concern such as abortion, corporate taxation and military neutrality"

Cóir, the group leading opposition to the Lisbon Treaty, make claims that the danger, is not that the Lisbon Treaty itself would overthrow Ireland's pro-life law, but that "the treaty will give the EU courts the right to decide on abortion
However even Irish bishops claimed in their statement that they were remaining neutral on the referendum, and condemned what they called "misleading, incorrect, irrelevant" statements by opponents of the Treaty.

Green Party Dublin West representative Roderic O'Gorman has also condemned as lies, posters put up by the anti-Lisbon organisation COIR about the minimum wage.
"Over the last few days, the anti-Lisbon organisation COIR has been putting up posters around Dublin 15 stating that if Lisbon is passed, the minimum wage will become €1.84. As someone who lectures in European Union law, I can say that this claim is completely and utterly false", he stated

Meanwhile, after his failed campaign for the European Parliament in June in which his pan-European party, Libertas, was also routed
Declan Ganley said he would not get involved in a second referendum.

His re-entry into the fight comes at a time when opinion polls show support for a "yes" vote gaining ground and Ganley is gambling that he can swing the pendulum back again but much has changed since the country first rejected the treaty on June 13, 2008

In the intervening period the global recession has had a catastrophic effect on the Irish economy and many are weighing any argument against Lisbon against the prospect of isolation in Europe.

Paddy Murray (rugby fan, music lover, Irishman) writing on 'dodgy' Declan last year

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 09:52 AM

Whichever way Ireland votes the EU is still here, and Irelands's still a member, and on balance that's better for everyone.

The things that need changing will still be there - I don't knowm any reason to think that a No vote would make it any easier getting that done, very likely the reverse.

No good saying "don't trust the politicians who say it's good" - why should anyone sooner trust the other politicians who say it's bad?

I look around and see the papers and the public figures who'll be delighted if Ireland votes "No", and I intensely dislike what I see, probabaly even more than the ones who will be delighted if the vote is "Yes".

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: bfdk
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 09:38 AM

You voted 'No'? Sorry, I didn't hear you. Vote again.

You still voted 'No'? We'll have to sweeten the pill for you..

You voted 'No' again??? Better lay on some threaths this time round..

You finally voted 'Yes'.. (listen to the resounding din of the trap clamping shut - never to open again)

Vote NO!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 06:29 AM

emma b,
that money was wasted,frittered away,
there has been very little investment in railways,we do not require motorways.
we require a better rail infrastructure.
you may be proudly whatever,but can I remind you that the IRISH PEOPLE have rejected the lisbon treaty already,they should not need to vote again.
why havent the english been allowed to vote on the treaty?.
the treaty should be rejected again because no one understands it,do you understand it Emma B.,IF YOU DO EXPLAIN IT IN ALLS ITS ENTIRETY.
I live in IRELAND,and isee very little improvement in the important transport infra structure,Rail and canals,we do not need ti o make the same mistakes as England,and waste money on motorways that get clogged up with more cars.
the irish fishing industry has been decimated by the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: GUEST,Shaneo
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 06:26 AM

The unemployment figure for Ireland in 1973 when Ireland joined the e.e.c. was 70,000. The figure today is 460,000.

Our farmers are worse off now that before we joined, as are our fisher men

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 05:55 AM

Ireland has been very significantly, a major beneficiary of European funds since their accession to the EEC in 1973

Receipts from the EU budget during that period amount to a staggering €60 billion in total, or 3.3% of the GDP.
Literally billions of euros have been received in structural funds which - any regular visitor to the country like myself will observe -have built roads all over the country, stimulating further growth.
It is estimated that over a million jobs have been created since 1973
While some politicians have expressed frustrations, dealing with the bureaucracy and strict requirements of the EU system, overall it is agreed that membership has benefited the country immensely and without it the 'Celtic Tiger' could not have happened.

As Richard said there have been some 'decisions' that have been continually mocked in the press like the bendy banana Euromyths that attempt to portray the EU as 'beauracy gone mad'
EU scare stories appear on a regular basis, but the majority turn out not to be true.
The commission has even has an EU snopes-like website to refuting the stories.

There was one recently where it said the European Commission was going to standardise the size of condoms and it was argued they wouldn't be big enough for British assets :)

As one MEP for Wales said

"But it's just titillation fuelled by newspapers. Most of the Euromyths are either pure imagination or massive exaggeration. They're spread to make the EU appear sinister or silly.
There's a drip drip effect which builds up an anti-EU agenda and of course it's extremely frustrating
The problem is people believe in the myths. When they said we were going to ban chocolate people thought it was true. But eight years on, it never happened. Time proves it's just nonsense"

She added that focusing on such stories meant serious legislation was often overlooked

Even the Equal Treatment Directive (aimed at harmonising and enforcing a ban across the 27-member bloc on discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation, age, religious belief and disability)
was ridiculed in the Telegraph as it meant bishops would be 'powerless to stop witches from hiring out church property' and 'organisers of a Catholic conference, for instance, would be legally obliged to make double rooms available to gay and unmarried couples'

Emma B, proudly European and British!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 05:08 AM

There are ups and downs to the EU.

A unified currency is a major problem, IMHO, in that it takes major aspects of control over local economic conditions out of the hands of local governments.

Similarly unified border control.

And of course there is "straight cucumber" regulation - and the farcical situation about drainage appliances that has meant that the intrinsically failworthy French "clapet" lavatory cisterns are now permitted in the UK as well as the vastly superior and failsafe siphonic system - so resulting in millions of gallons of fresh water running to waste annually.

And some of the overzealous safety regulations have left for example car finishes and upholstry glues less reliable and durable than they were 50 years ago.

On the other hand, things like antidiscrimination law and the Working Time Directives represent huge advances for the working person.

But the freedom of movement of capital and some aspects of the freedom to provide services have led to profiteering by capital and the oppression of the workers.

I don't think I'd entirely kick it out, but I would restrict some of the powers of the central cabal. And I'd dismantle the entire system of EU law and start again with a proper system of precedent and judicial logic.

Subject: RE: BS: rish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 04:04 PM

I agree with JOHN MACKENZIE,vote no.
the irish or those that are living in the republic,but not those living in Ulster,have already said NO.
why do we need to vote again,the majority said no,so the eu didnt like the answer,so we have to vote again.
we are in the EU now,UNEMPLOYMENT IN ireland is already very high,and the EU AND THE YES CAMPAIGN ARE TRYING TO FRIGHTEN VOTERS INTO SAYING YES.
They can get on their bikes,I shall be voting for sinn fein at the next election,and if I was allowed to vote,I would vote NO.

Subject: RE: BS: rish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: skarpi
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:35 AM

never ever vote for EU .

kv Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: rish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Rog Peek
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:34 AM

For anyone who's not heard of
Mickey Duff

Subject: RE: BS: rish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Rog Peek
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:31 AM

I agree with John.

As far as I can see, a good rule of thumb is: if the politions tell you it's good for you, the chances are it isn't. What they actually mean is it's good for them and their cronies. I recall Micky Duff once saying "If a politician had an honest though in their head, it would die of loneliness."

Do us a favour Ireland, and sink it for good and all.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: rish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:03 AM

You're right, it's not about sovereignty, it's about protecting the few assets we have left.
Scotland is responsible for 70% of the fishing which is allocated to members of the EEC, yet it has no say over these allocations.
Our fishermenm are going out of business daily, while Spanish, and others, catch right up to our shores, and send the fish directly abroad by road. The lorries which carry them arrive here with full fuel tanks, and almost never buy fuel at our inflated prices, so Scotland derives a nil benefit from these activities.
The UK heavy industries have been decimated through the activities of this hydra in Brussels, and all the money we have received in grants etc from there, wouldn't pay for half of the assets we have lost.
Where is our quid pro quo?

JM

Subject: RE: BS: rish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Emma B
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:36 AM

Irish Finance Minister Brian Lenihan insists that goodwill from Europe is vital for small nations.

He said the Lisbon Treaty was vital for a country like Ireland as it gave the protection of rules and the cover of institutions like the European Commission and the ECB.

"That is why the Lisbon Treaty is very good for Ireland, because the best protection for the smaller states is a treaty founded in the rule of law, because otherwise you have the rule of the jungle with larger states asserting their muscle to the detriment and disadvantage of smaller states,"

view from The Independent Ireland today

Subject: RE: BS: rish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Lox
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 08:34 AM

I suspect it will be significantly different this time.

1. Ireland suffered badly in the credit crunch and has lost some of its arrogance and realized how much they have to thank europe for over the last 15 years.

2. This time the YES campaign won't be taking it for granted. Last time round there was practically only one campaign and that was for NO - surprisingly the NO's got the vote.


And a good thing too. All this crap about being ruled from brussels, as if it means that the Irish are giving power away to foreigners, is a load of jingoistic claptrap.


Before the EU, europeans went to war with each other.

It is the antidote to european nationalism which does nthing but cause strife and misery.

It ain't perfect but its a lot better than what existed before.

"but we want to keep the pound" it makes no difference practically except to make brits pay through the nose for foreign exchange.

"its about our sovereignty"

no it isn't - its about dislike of europeans. Get over it - this generation has no interest in that kind of nationalist claptrap.

Subject: RE: BS: rish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 08:23 AM

Just vote the same as you did the last time, and limit EEC bureaucracy.
Unless of course, you want to become a satellite of Brussels.

JM

Subject: BS: rish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: skarpi
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 06:50 AM

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6845000.ece

Well Ireland , Lissabon treat = yes or no ???

Mr Barroso also used his visit to dispense reminders of a bankrupt Iceland, where "people went to the ATM machine and there was no money".

this is just not true , the Icelandic newspapers
have been checkin this out and there is no truth in his words .
he is just saying , if you dont vote for it , we will .............

but vote from your heart not from what I say or anybody else .
get all knowledge about the treat and then vote from your heart .

dont think about what is goin on here in Iceland , the IMF is
burning Iceland down , just like in any country they but their
foot on , they must be stopped . the IMF are only tools of the
big countrys like UK ; USA and eroupe EU .

50 thousands home are ruin , bankrupt .....
IMF rules the coverment , they are gonna get us a higher tax
the foot price is up , no work , the benefitsfound is empty
and there is no common sence in what the IMF are doin here , everthing is goin to stopp here , 65 % of all firms in Iceland
are bankrupt or are in a few weeks goin down , becouse there
is nothing goin on , Iceland has been put into the frost .

This is all political plots , nothing else .

dont loose your independence, your freedom , fight for it
I dont know what will happen here , but there are dark clouds
in the air .... the autumnn could go red...................


but this is the dark side , the other side the white one well
its not far away ...... at least in my mind ......

like they say in the good book AnamCara

" we are always on a journey from darkness into the light "

well good luck , all the best Skarpi Iceland .