From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:49 PM

Switching for a moment from "Shallow" back to "Sally Brown," I don't think I've put this reference up before. It is from THE NEW ZEALAND RAILWAYS MAGAZINE, February 1, 1930. It is about a Maori seaman who had been a Second Mate on board the "Postboy" schooner. He says, " I was at Sydney in her in the Fifties, when everyone was going mad over the gold-diggings in Victoria and America." He sings a verse of his favorite chanty, which just happens to be "Sally Brown" being a bright mulatto and drinking her rum and chewing her tobacco.

http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-Gov04_10Rail-t1-body-d9-d1-d6.html

I think that this probably locates "Sally Brown" in Sydney in the 1850's.

If you Google (not Google Books) "Sally Brown was a bright mulatto", you will find a whole lot of very sad history about a whole bunch of "Sally Browns" who were mulatto slaves. There seem to be numerous historical records.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:40 PM

I wondered about "Jenny's toe" as well!

Thanks, Lighter, for the Perrey version of "Shallow Brown". The steamboat reference is interesting, as well as the "No more work on plantation" verse. Does Sharp give a tune and is it the fairly standard one or wildly different?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 11:38 AM

John, collected by Sharp from "Mr. Harry Perrey (age 61) on board the American liner S.S. St. Paul, July 21, 1915." From Journal of the Folk-Song Society (Nov., 1916), p. 302:

SHALLOW BROWN
(I'm Going Away to Leave You)

Pulling Chanty

I'm going away to leave you,
Shallow, O Shallow Brown.   
I'm going away to leave you,
Shallow, O Shallow Brown.

[Similarly:]

Get my clothes in order.

The steam-boat sails to-morrow.

I'm bound away for Georgia.

No more work on plantation.

I'll cross the wide Atlantic.

I'll cross the Chili mountains.

To pump them silver fountains.

Sharp adds this note to the final verse: "[i.e., work the silver mines]" Perrey may have suggested this interpretation, but there seems to be no way to know. If he did, it would seem to be extraordinarily metaphorical for a shanty.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 11:14 AM

Just read the 1990s ref. note that what Jenny "in all probability" shook in the 1830s was not her toe but another part whose name must have been derived from an African word.

Jeez! Jenny (an imaginary character) could have shook anything she wanted, including and not limited to her toe, depending on who was doing the singing and to whom.

With a little determination, "hidden sexual meanings" are findable everywhere. Whose mind the hidden meaning originates in is another story.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 07:29 AM

Here's a link to the notes for Peggy Seeger's album "Heading for Home", which has "Jenny" Gone Away" (scroll down). These notes are by Joe Hickerson. This is a nice summary.

http://www.peggyseeger.com/listen-buy/heading-for-home/heading-for-home-notes

And here is a nice memorial site for the late Carlie Tart of Benson, NC:

http://tartpottery.com/

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 07:13 AM

Charlie, thanks for that "North Carolina Folklore" reference. I came across a snippet on that but couldn't access it and couldn't tell from the snippet anything about it. I'm adding it to my pile of stuff to haul to the UVA library one day soon.

Speaking of which, has anybody looked at the article mentioned by Hugill found in the "Journal" of the Folk Song Society that gives the "Shallow Brown" verse collected by Piggott about

    "'l'll cross the Chili mountains,
    To pump the silver fountains,..."

Isn't H.E. Piggott the one who helped collect the Perring version with Grainger? And are there additional verses in "Journal" article, or any information?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:35 AM

Here's the reference on Charley's "Rollin' John". It's part of the WPA project and someone will have to make a trip to the library on this one.

http://books.google.com/books?id=00QTAAAAYAAJ&q=%22Rollin'+John,+O+Rollin'+John&dq=%22Rollin'+John,+O+Rollin'+John&cd=1

Piecing together a couple of snippets, here is what I can get:

"...the work. It is this song whith its happy lilt that the plantation owner insisted upon rather than the plaintive melody of the religius song. And so today as the Negro works, he sings that song of by-gone days:

             "Rollin' John, O Rollin' John
             Rollin' John come roll me over
             Sally O Gal.

    The modern Negro's cultural interests are a natural continuation of his early ones; and in the more practical aspects of life he has followed the same trends. Building upon the foundation made during slavery, the Negro soon developed...."

This was collected in Savannah in the 1930's.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:18 AM

Gibb-

Hill-up, boys, hilo" you quoted? I wonder what was Southern's source...

No, in short. I have a copy of Southern's book in my library but the source is only identified in general terms. But I did find the surfacing of these "shanty terms" in plantation songs interesting to say the least.

I also first heard "Genny's Gone to Ohio" (evidently its proper title) as recorded on The New Golden Ring "Five Days of Singing Vol. 1 as recorded by Folk Legacy, © 1971. According to the album notes the connection between this song and the sea shanty "Tom's Gone to Hilo" and "southern Negro corn-shucking and dance songs appears in NORTH CAROLINA FOLKLORE, Vol. 15, no. 1, May, 1967; the song was collected by Phil Kennedy from Carli Tart in Benson, North Carolina in the early 1960's.

So all the extended discussion by Hugill and others about the meaning of "Hilo" may amount to less than a hill of beans or a pile of corn husks.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 11:23 PM

Here's a recent re-write of "Jenny" with a "traditional" tune:

http://books.google.com/books?id=gfh0Ki1uwMwC&pg=PA68&dq=%22Jenny's+gone+to+Ohio&cd=1#v=onepage&q=%22Jenny's%20gone%20to%20Ohio&

And here's a clip of Peggy Seeger singing this:

http://www.peggyseeger.com/listen-buy/heading-for-home/9-Jennys-Gone-Away.mp3/view?searchterm=None

But I've not been able to find anything earlier or a direct connection with "Jenny's Gone Away". I think this song was also recorded by New Golden Ring. Five Days Singing - Vol. I, and I believe Joe Hickerson had something to do with reviviing it. I doubt if this has anything to do with it:

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/h?ammem/mussm:@field(NUMBER+@band(sm1871+12651))

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:54 PM

Charlie--

Do you have any more detail on the "Hill-up, boys, hilo" you quoted? I wonder what was Southern's source, so we can track down the original, or at least a date and place/context.

Also, any sources for "Jenny's Gone to Ohio"? Thanks.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:10 PM

John-

Hugill goes on to say, "C.F. Smith sees in it a resemblance to "Shallow Brown."

Maybe Hugill was confusing C. Fox Smith with L. A. Smith?

And there is a land version of "Johnny's Gone to Hilo" titled "Jenny's Gone to Ohio." Lord only knows which one was first but they both probably sprung to life as plantation songs.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 05:57 PM

I found Hugill's version of "Goodbye, My Love, Goodbye" late in the day yesterday. He doesn't say where it comes from. He does say, "Tozer and Colcord give a version, the former giving a set of very sentimental verses which I feel sure have been made up."(p.118/'61) The Colcord version comes straight out of Alden's article. I don't have the Tozer version and I'm wondering if it has anything to do with the one in THE CRUISER.

Hugill goes on to say, "C.F. Smith sees in it a resemblance to "Shallow Brown." Am I missing something here? I can't find any reference to this song in C.F. Smith's A BOOK OF SHANTIES, nor does she give "Shallow Brown." What is Hugill talking about here?   

I also wanted to refer up thread to this note:

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=596#2893970

There is a reference there to:

"Another very pretty and pathethic tune began with words that seemed to promise something sentimental -

    "Fare you well, and good-by, oh, oh!
    I'm goin' away to leave you, oh, oh!"

This is from Fanny Kemble's JOURNAL OF A RESIDENCE ON A GEORGIAN PLANTATION IN 1838-1839. This sounds like it is connected to either "Shallow Brown" or "Goodbye, My Love, Goodbye," or some predecessor, since this is a much earlier date. It is in the same source that mentions "Jenny Gone Away" and the phrase from a "wailing chorus" that went "Oh! My massa told me, there's no grass in Georgia." This was a lamentation about the threat and worry about being sold away to Georgia.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 07:21 AM

That's certainly a spirited version of "Hilo, Boys."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 07:15 AM

It looks like we can add "The Saucy Arabella" to our list of songs that *could* have been sung on board the "Julia Ann" in 1853-1855, thanks to Lighter's work on this.

Also, I would add "Hilo, Boys, Hilo." See this commentary by Gibb over at the A&D thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=128220&messages=272#2895063

Here is the original source:

http://books.google.com/books?id=WlhUsSH4QeUC&pg=PA282&dq=%22Hilo,+Boys,+Hilo%22&cd=6#v=onepage&q=%22Hilo%2C%20Boys%2C%20Hilo%22

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 07:40 PM

Nothing on Perring's career, so far as I can tell.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 07:26 PM

Not very enlightening, but since it's the Gulf of Mexico probably not a coincidence:

"Afloat with a Florida Sponger," Littell's Living Age (July 25, 1885), p. 250:

"When a sponge comes up bearing a 'bud' of good size, this is broken off and thrown back. It sinks and survives, but is said not to become affixed to a rock but to drift about on the bottom with the motion of any storm or any current that may stir it. It increases in size, but easily eludes the grasp of the clumsy hooks that try to pick it up. These outcasts...are called 'rolling Johns' by the fishermen."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 07:05 PM

Thanks for this information, Lighter. Do we have any "at sea" details on Perring?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 06:53 PM

The website lyrics are not quite as Grainger published them in the Journal of the Folk-Song Society (May, 1908), p. 241:

Shallow Brown
(Hauling Shanty)

_Slowly, plaintively, and dramatically_

(1) Shallow Brown, you're going to leave me.
Shallow, Shallow Brown.
Shallow Brown, you're going to leave me.
Shallow, Shallow Brown.

(2) Shallow Brown, don't ne'er deceive me. (twice)

(3) You're going away across the ocean. (twice)

(4) But you'll ever be my heart's devotion. (twice)

(5) For your return my heart is burning. (twice)

(6) When you return, we'll then get married. (twice)

(7) I'll not regret I ever tarried. (twice) etc.

My guess is that the "etc." merely reflects the idea - possibly suggested by informant Perring - that one might ad lib in a similar vein as long as necessary. "SB" is the only shanty in Grainger's article that ends this way.

All of Grainger's musical transcriptions are unusually detailed as to the singer's ornaments, variations, changes in volume, and so on.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 04:01 PM

"Shallow Brown" Part 9 A Not-Conclusion

Let's start with the Percy Grainger piece, which you can enjoy here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL5G9C59Iao

Then we have June Tabor's version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pajekD3l3to&feature=related

Here is Gibb's version of the Ellison/Sharp/Hugill (d) version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4xINqWqFQk

Now we come to the Short/Sharp version, or what I've come to think of as Gibb's "Etc" version":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0BbOxdiOWY&feature=related

And here is Gibb's version of "Hilo, Boys, Hilo". Hugill suggested that the tune for the verse part of the previous version comes from this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuPN75c-PVk

Along with this, I want to put up Gibb's version of "Tom's Gone To Hilo":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPiVETIBcxA

This one might be closer to "Shallow Brown":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhPONLh5TyY&feature=related

And here's "Blow, Boys, Blow":

http://www.youtube.com/user/hultonclint#p/c/58B55DD66F22060C/114/Mv0H5yar2CA

Guess what. That song "Goodbye, My Love, Goodbye" is in print! Right there on pages 118-119 in Hugill ('61). It's grog time of day! Here's the one and only Gibb:

http://www.youtube.com/user/hultonclint#p/a/58B55DD66F22060C/50/HC5FEdl8zbs

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 03:12 PM

I want some of that Solomon Gundy stuff! BTW, that Walkers Wood brand is very good if you ever want to buy jerk sauce/seasoning. I've tried lots of bottled stuff labelled as jerk sauce, but this is one brand available in the States that is actually very good!

----

Back on topic.

Sorry my brain cannot go deep into the shallows of Ms. Brown right now -- forgive the surface-y comments. Along those lines,

Those are definitely 2 different songs that Alden presents. The 1876 reference is excellent because it corroborates "Goodbye My Love" as a current song. Alden's different text, with tune, suggests that (so far as we don't see it anywhere else) it is an authentic example. THE CRUISER, at first glance, looks like a derivative + contrived bit, but I have not examined that source closely.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 02:51 PM

Ah, yes, Solomon Gundy. Here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Gundy
It's strong stuff! But with the rum and the Red Stripe....

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 02:51 PM

Gibb, the extra "r" in (some) English "dialect spellings" does usually have a meaning. It means that the preceding vowel is sustained or the syllable is emphatic.

Christopher Robin said, "He's Winnie-ther-Pooh. Don't you know what _ther_ means?"

An American would likely have written "Winnie-THE-Pooh" and "what THE means."

And I agree it would take some doing to sing "Rolling John" to the "Blow, Boys, Blow" tune. Stanzas from "Blow, Boys, Blow" (if indeed that's where they originated) and "Sally Brown" were among the most ubiquitous "floaters" of all, so my guess is that they got stuck into "Rolling John" arbitrarily.

If "RJ" was common enough to be reported independently three times (the "Maine" version may ultimately have come from Clark's book), I suspect the tune may be findable. Will look a little further.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 02:41 PM

Gibb, it is so important to stay loose with this stuff. The temptation to read back into the past what we think we know for sure today is unconsciously and perhaps consciously overwhelming at times.

Here is Part 8 for "Shallow Brown"

And it has to do with Henry Alden's version. In the link above, if you scroll up you will see that there are two parts to what Alden presents. The question is, do we have two different songs here, as both L. Smith and Colcord would have us believe, or do we have two parts to the same song, or perhaps two different versions of the same song? Smith completely leaves out the first part. Colcord presents it as a separate song. Both are derivative from Alden, and not independent sources.   Here is what Alden says:

"Closely resembling them, but nevertheless advancing a step in the direction of windlass songs, were those pulling songs which consisted of four lines instead of two, the words of both the choruses being the same, but the melody of each being different. Of these the two following were often heard:

    I'm bound away to leave you.
    Good-by, my love, good-by.
   I never will deceive you.
    Good-by, my love, good-by.
   Come get my clothes in order,
    Shallow, Shallow, Brown.
   The packet sails tomorrow.
    Shallow, Shallow, Brown."    [The second comma is interesting.]

You will notice that these are the first two verses of Robinson's version, but that he does not have "Good-by, my love, good-by". From his comments, it would seem that Alden is presenting two different examples, although they are printed as a continuous song. In fact, the first part did circulate independently. See this closely parallel example from a fictional piece entitled "Marcia's Fortune" from the THE CENTURY ILLUSTRATED of 1876, which is six years prior to the Alden article.

http://books.google.com/books?id=E5Wk8R742GkC&pg=PA860&dq=%22I'm+bound+away+to+leave+you&lr=&cd=4#v=onepage&q=%22I'm%20bound%20a

And, from THE CRUISER, 1908, we have this song:

http://books.google.com/books?id=bIgCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA328&dq=%22Good-bye,+my+love,+good-bye&cd=4#v=onepage&q=%22Good-bye%2C%20my%20

I've not been able to find any more information about this song, but I have a sense that it was written and printed somewhere. My guess is that it existed independently of "Shallow Brown" and perhaps preceded it, and shaped it. I would say that it is *a* source, or an influence. I would be interested to know what you music people make out of the tune in Alden, especially in comparison with the tune that follows for his "Shallow Brown".

Given the fractured nature of our records, it seems impossible to stitch together much of a coherent line of development for "Shallow Brown". I think a lot has fed into it. One could also mention that the Harlowe version looks to have been influenced by "Highland Laddie" or "Tom's Gone to Hilo", and the version in Davis and Tozer has at least one verse from "Haul Away, Joe".

The earliest written date we have is Alden and it presents an enigma. The earliest possible dating we can posit is the Short version and it lands us right in the middle of a very fluid situation with "Blow, Boys, Blow." I'm not going to try at this point to weave all of this together, but I would welcome some other attempts. The "Shallow Brown" that we end up with and know so well is unique and distinct from all of these other sources. Did it emerge whole or did it emerge bit by bit, or does it ever make any sense to make such a distinction.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 02:30 PM

Grog break: Solomon Gundie, 1964 Jamaican ska! (it's the B-side)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 02:23 PM

the nursery rhyme "Soloman Grundy" (was this nursery rhyme named after the Jamaican condiment or vice-versa?)

I've never heard of the condiment! :) However, I am sure the nursery rhyme was also prevalent in Jamaica. My basis for that inference is that there is a Jamaican popular song from the Ska era (circa 1963-65) that has the rhyme, "Solomon Gundy" (no R). And, based on how I know those ska songs to have been constructed, I'd say people were probably singing the rhyme in earlier Jamaican "folk" songs, too.

Excellent song for dancing, BTW. I'll look for a version online...

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 02:13 PM

John, I wouldn't expect the "post-vocalic 'r'" to be pronounced very audibly, if at all, by English or Northeast and Deep South singers in either "Shanandore" or "Shaller."

I agree. The R seems mostly to be a visual thing, in fact (I think you've said that before, too).

I've come to interpret most of these R's as a dialect writer's code. There is a paradox, in that when England-English (and maybe Deep South??) is being represented, an R is put there as if to tell you precisely the opposite -- no R is being pronounced!

To cite a contemporary example, I have an album of a Indo-British singer. He is singing in Punjabi. The liner notes transcribe his lyrics in a really horrible (phony) "phonetic" way. Every Punjabi word that ends in a vowel sound has been spelled with an R on the end. For example, the Punjabi word "de" ("give"), rather than being rendered precisely as /de/ or approximately as /day/ (as an American probably would), has been given as /there/ (the "th" is another mis-hearing and a separate issue!). Ridiculous. And "there" would only approximate the Punjabi word when read and spoken by a London-ish speaker. Likewise, many of these dialect spelling for shanties are intended to be "heard" with the eyes of an England English speaker...a slippery slope of pronunciation confusion!!

So, when I see R, I assume it is "London dialect spelling" or else it just means there is a vowel/dipthong on the end that is, nonetheless, the same as what you'd hear in r-less dialects. If there *is* any amount of R actually being heard, I'd propose that it corresponds to that other paradoxical phenomenon: where e.g. that London speakers tend to add "r" sound to words that end in a vowel.

There may be no difference between "shiloh" and "shallow" other than *how* one hears the sound.

I agree. *Generically* speaking, the Southern pronunciation of "shilo" is identical to the Northern pronunciation of "shaahlo."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 01:46 PM

Good reading, guys!   Random peanut gallery comments from me, to follow.

FWIW, for Clark's shanty,

"A Yankee sloop came down the river,
Hah, hah, rolling John,...."

I don't "hear" that as "Blow Boys." Although it has the floating lyrical theme now associated with Blow Boys Blow, it's framework strikes me as more like "Sally Brown." More accurately, it is neither. It is a form that is in the middle of all this, between today's reified ideas of either shanty. So yeah, it is like both Blow Boys Blow and Sally Brown. But maybe it is something slightly distinct that we don't happen to be familiar with: "Rolling John," or something.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 12:54 PM

That's great, Lighter! That definitely ties together -at some historical point - "Shenandoah" and "Blow, Boys, Blow" with "Sally" some sort. Hugill does have a "Sing, Sally O!" which is aka "Mudder Dinah" on pp. 388-389. This shows up in Bullen, Colcord and Sharp as well.

Here is "Shallow Brown" Part 7

Colcord gives Captain John Robinson's version of "Shallow Brown" with the following note from Robinson:

"I remember hearing it ["Shallow Brown"] sung by the black crew of an American full-rigged ship, the "Garnet," of New York, at Macabei [Macabi], a guano island in the South Pacific [off the coast of Peru]. It sounded very musical coming across the still water, while to its accompaniment the captain's gig was pulled up to its place." (p. 57).

Here is an early accounting of the guano trade from 1866, which specifically mentions Macabi:

http://books.google.com/books?id=BzLOAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA581&lpg=PA581&dq=guano+trade+Macabi&source=bl&ots=i9EzuEv_sR&sig=hjr-yGfOmYJs

And one on the history of this trade:

http://www1.american.edu/ted/guano.htm

Unfortunately, they are not helpful in dating Robinson's experience. He went to see in 1859, but could have had this experience any time in the next thirty years at least. I have searched for the "American full-rigged ship, Garnet" but there were a number of "Garnets" and I haven't been able to put one at Macabi Island. It's too bad, because otherwise this is such a precise notation!

I would note that W.B. Whall's version of "Challo Brown" is very similar to that of Robinson. Whall was at sea from 1861-1872, so there is definitely overlap for these two men. However, if I'm not mistaken, Whall was on the other side of the world. They share the verse about "being a bright mulatto from Cincinnati," as well as the verse about "getting my clothes in order and sailing across the border." Unfortunately none of this really helps us date either Whall or Robinson, two of our earlier sailors. It doesn't help that Robinson published his collection in 1917 and Whall in 1910. Terry's version, published in 1926, seems to draw from both the Robinson and Whall versions.   

However, the Robinson version shares its first two verses with that published by Henry Alden in HARPER'S NEW MONTHLY MAGAZINE in 1882, here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=SsoaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA282&dq=%22Shallow+Brown%22&lr=&cd=99#v=onepage&q=%22Shallow%20Brown%22&f=fals

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 11:41 AM

Another "plantation" connection:

Federal Writers Project guidebook "Savannah" (Savannah: Review Printing Co., 1937), p. 53:

"And so today as the Negro works, he sings that song of by-gone days:

Rollin' John, O Rollin' John
Rollin' John come roll me over
Sally O Gal"

Additionally, in his poem "Poppies and Poinsettias" (1926), the Jamaican-born Claude McKay (1889-1948) writes of

"...music mingling with the toil

"Of half-nude peasants wielding pick and hoe,
Chantying at their labor in the sun:
'Sing Sally-O-Gal-O! Sing Sally-O!'"...

West Indies, plantation labor, "Sing Sally-O!" and "chantying": who could ask for more in three lines?

If only McKay had written a hundred years earlier!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 10:47 AM

Arthur Hamilton Clark, in his description of a "typical" sailing day for the clipper ships from New York harbor during the Gold Rush, which is found in his THE CLIPPER SHIP ERA...1843-1869, gives an interesting version of "Blow, Boys, Blow" (p. 117). This was not published until 1912 and is Clark's reconstruction.

"A Yankee sloop came down the river,
Hah, hah, rolling John,
Oh what do you think that sloop had in her?
Hah, Hah, rolling John,
Monkey's hide and bullock's liver,
Hah, hah, rolling John."

http://books.google.com/books?id=HVYuAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA117&dq=%22Hah,+Hah,+rolling+John&cd=2#v=onepage&q=%22Hah%2C%20Hah%2C%20rollin

This looks like it is also in MINSTRELSY OF MAINE, by Ecstrom and Smyth, 1927.

http://books.google.com/books?id=8k5BAAAAMAAJ&q=%22Hah,+Hah,+rolling+John&dq=%22Hah,+Hah,+rolling+John&cd=1

This would seem to be related to the "hah! hah! rolling river" versions of "Shenandoah". It would be nice to actually be able to date this back to the 1850's and the Gold Rush, but I don't think it's possible on the basis of Clark's evidence.

I also wanted to mention that the version of "Shallow Brown" by William Fender, talks about a theft of a dollar and getting that dollar back, which reminded me of the "Dollar" song from Nordhoff as well as the "Spanish dollar" verse in the Short version of SB.

Detail.CFM?messages__Message_ID=2740843

http://books.google.com/books?id=MKoPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA41&dq=%22see-man-do%22&cd=4#v=onepage&q=%22see-man-do%22&f=false

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 10:17 AM

Thanks, Lighter. I was hoping somebody would say something about this. It is much harsher in print. Here's Part 6.

"Shallow Brown" Part 6

The "What's the matter" verse also shows up in Richard Maitland's version, along with the one from the Georgia Sea Islands and William Fender.

Continuing for a moment with the gender issue, Hugill makes the comment on p. 260 that "Sometimes the wording would be that of "Sally Brown," and 'Oh, Sally Brown' would be substituted for 'Oh, Shallow Brown' in the refrains." Of course, Sally got around quite a bit, but I would think that this is an important connection, at least in moving "Shallow Brown" in the direction of the name of a woman. We know that Sally was around for a long time and that she was very popular. I think that there's a good chance that she had some major influence on "Shallow Brown".

Another interesting connection is with the version of "Sally Brown" that Gibb has just posted on the Advent & Development thread from ON BOARD THE ROCKET. Because, that version melds "Sally Brown" with "Blow Boys, Blow". Here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=7v1IAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA814&dq=BLOW,+MY+BULLY+BOYS,+BLOW.&lr=&cd=92#v=onepage&q=BLOW%2C%20MY%20BU

So we have a triangle here with both "Sally Brown" and "Shallow Brown" being directly connected to "Blow, Boys, Blow". The ROCKET version of "Sally Brown/Blow Boys" is from the late 1860's. We also have this rather strange version of "Shenandoah" from 1868, which Lighter turned up, (and which may be the earliest version in print) that combines "Sally Brown" and "Blow, Boys, Blow" and "Jim Along, Josie" with "Shenandoah":

Detail.CFM?messages__Message_ID=2867238

To say the least, things were fluid in the chanty business in the late 1860's! I want to suggest that "Blow, Boys, Blow", "Sally Brown", and "Shenandoah" all had some possible influence in the shaping if not the origins of "Shallow Brown".

While it is not exactly "Blow, Boys, Blow", this version that we have already posted has the sense of that song and it is from 1857 (and maybe earlier). I think this is as early as we've been able to date anything in relation to "Blow, Boys, Blow". If so, it would be far enough back to have been in the early mix of things with regard to "Shallow Brown".

http://books.google.com/books?id=ybXPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA11&dq=%22O+Shenandoh+my+bully+boy%22&lr=&cd=10#v=onepage&q&f=false

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 09:59 AM

John, I wouldn't expect the "post-vocalic 'r'" to be pronounced very audibly, if at all, by English or Northeast and Deep South singers in either "Shanandore" or "Shaller."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 08:42 AM

"Shallow Brown" Part 5

I want to say some more about how *we* hear this song today, or at least how I have been hearing it. I think that the "Love you well, Juliana" verse in Short's version, and as far as I can tell this is the only place it shows up, has contributed to a sex change for Shallow Brown. I love the Juliana verse and I love that name. But I think that it made Shallow a man and that originally (ha!) Shallow Brown was the woman being left behind. If you can set Juliana aside in your head, all of the other versions tend to point in the direction of Shallow being a woman. Even the comments of John Perring to Percy Grainger suggest this:

" John Perring (of Dartmouth, England), a remarkably gifted deep-sea sailor songster from whose singing H. E. Piggott and I collected the chanty in 1908, said that the song was supposed to be sung by a woman standing on the quay to Shallow Brown as his ship was weighing anchor. John Perring did not know why Brown was called 'Shallow'--'unless it was that he was shallow in his heart', as he added."

I did find the Grainger/Perring lyrics here:

http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/get_text.html?TextId=17057

Note the dialect use of "Shaller". This is somewhat similar to "Shanandore". That "r" sure messes with the mellowness of these songs, but I think that it is precisely the mellowness that is seductive and may confuse us at times.

It is safe to say that nobody *yet* knows for sure what "S(C)hallo(w)" means. But I think we can say that it is a person's name in a good number of versions of this song. But perhaps not in all. I think we are learning with "hilo" not to jump to conclusions on this. The word "hilo" as something one does, may mean to give a yell, a holler, rather than a port in Chile or Hawaii. I think that it's important to hold open the possibility that "Shallow Brown" is not a name at all.

Perhaps this becomes a bit clearer when we de-romanticize the song and hear it more as a work song. Again the Short version sort of helps me with this. In this context, "Shallow Brown" becomes more of shout than a croon. The verses are free to go in any direction they may choose.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 07:59 AM

Thanks for the note on "Rosabella", Lighter. That looks promising. And your "Hill-up, boys, hilo" is a nice addition, too, Charlie. And Gibb, a little good whiskey is always welcome.

I want to turn to Part 4 of "Shallow Brown".

Charlie's "Hilo" reminded me that there was one other connection between SB and "hilo" that I wanted to bring in here. Hugill has a note on pp. 260-261 about a song fragment from "Bill Adams" (wish he had said more about this!) that goes:

   "Oh, Johnny's gone, what shall I do?
    Ch. Shiloh, Shiloh Brown,
   Oh Johnny's gone, what shall I don?
    Ch. Johnny's gone to Rio!

Hugill says, "It is fairly ceertain that the tune of this would be "Tom's Gone to Hilo". So we have a connection between SB and this song as well. To recap for a moment, we see already that "Shallow Brown" had relationships with "Blow, Boys, Blow", "Hilo, Boys, Hilo", and "Tom's Gone to Hilo". Some of this is based on tune similarity and some on thematic similarity. I hear some tune similarity to "Tom's Gone" as well.

The Bill Adams fragment introduces another interesting theme, which is "Shiloh Brown". There are two other almost completely unrelated versions of "Shallow Brown" that also have "Shiloh" or "Shilo" instead of "Shallow". One is from the Georgia Sea Islands in Lydia Parrish's collection here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=awOzMKju54QC&pg=PA219&lpg=PA219&dq=Lydia+Parrish+-+%22Shilo+Brown%22&source=bl&ots=AM4MjsOCxm&s

And the other is from Edith Fowke's Nova Scotia collection here:

thread.cfm?threadid=7955&messages=42#2892411

As I said, the only thing these three songs have in common is the "Shiloh" part. The tune for the Parrish version is quite different from what we usually think of in relation to "Shallow Brown" (but then so was Short's tune as well). There was no tune for the Adams' fragment, and I haven't seen the tune from Fowke. There are some thematic overlaps.

The "Shilo, Ah wonduh what's tuh mattuh?" phrase from the Georgia Sea Islands shows up in a version sung by William Fender, which was collected by Carpenter. The "baby" theme from the GSI version also shows up in Richard Maitland's version, although in a different guise. The Nova Scotia version from Fowke is definitely related to the nursery rhyme "Soloman Grundy" (was this nursery rhyme named after the Jamaican condiment or vice-versa?), here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=aJOpr9g47_AC&pg=PP9&dq=solomon+grundy+nursery+rhyme&cd=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

I think there are a couple of interesting things about the "Shiloh" variation. First of all it shows up in at least two different places, Nova Scotia and the Sea Islands off the coast of Georgia. Secondly, there is the business of sound. There may be no difference between "shiloh" and "shallow" other than *how* one hears the sound. This refects back on "hilo"/"hollow" as well.

The Parrish version was collected from ex-slaves in 1909. This would take the memory quotient back quite a ways into the 1800's. Unfortunately, she doesn't really say how far. But it is a definitely link to slavery. The second verse establishes a definite link with stevedores:

   "Stevedore's in trouble,
      Shilo, Shilo Brown,
   Stevedore's in trouble,
      Shilo, Shilo Brown.

In fact, the singer, if I recall correctly, named R. Mac Gimsey, was a stevedore. The third verse probably also refers to dock work:

   "Take yo' time and drive 'em,
      Shilo, Shilo Brown,
   Take yo' time and drive 'em,
      Shilo, Shilo Brown.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 10:00 PM

I'm going to dump a post I made on another thread here with regard to "hilo" (rather than do a link):

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Charley Noble - PM
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 09:11 AM

Richie-

You may actually be making some progress here!

I can't find Daniel Decateur Emmett's "John come Down de Holler" but did find another reference to a "Jim Along Josey" which was another rewrite of a plantation song by the White/Black-faced minstrels of the 1840's.

BUT how about this fragment from an early 19th century field worksong (also from THE MUSIC OF BLACK AMERICANS, pp. 153):

Oh, this is the day to roll and go,
Hill-up, boys, hilo;
Oh, this is the day to roll and go,
Hill-up, boys, hilo.

Again, two birds with a single stone, "hilo" and "roll and go."

Clearly some of the common phrases we associate with sea shanties came from plantation field songs.

It's also quite possible that sailors forgot the association of "hilo" with a plantation field song and reassociated it with a port in Chile.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 07:33 PM

Crap, I posted that to the wrong thread. Sorry.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 07:31 PM

Sailors are not total abstainers as a rule, and one would suspect that a song like "Whiskey Johnny " might find frequent utterance: —

WHISKEY JOHNNY.

Whiskey is the life of man,
    Whiskey Johnny.
We'll drink our whiskey when we can,
    Whiskey for my Johnny.

I drink whiskey, and my wife drinks gin,
                      Chorus. 

And the way she drinks it is a sin.
                      Chorus.

I and my wife cannot agree,
                      Chorus.

For she drinks whiskey in her tea.
                      Chorus.

I had a girl, her name was Lize,
                      Chorus. 

And she put whiskey in her pies.
                      Chorus.
Whiskey's gone and I'll go too,
                     Chorus.
For without whiskey I can't do.
                      Chorus.

Another popular song is:--

KNOCK A MAN DOWN.

I wish I was in Mobile Bay.
    Way, hey, knock a man down.
A-rolling cotton night and day.
    This is the time to knock a man down.

The words already quoted will enable a person to sing this and neariy all the songs of this set. He can wish he was in every known port in the world, to whose name he can find a rhyme. If New Orleans was selected, he would add, "Where Jackson gave the British beans." At " Boston city," his desire would be, "a-walking with my lovely Kitty." At " New York town," he would be, "a-walking Broadway up and down," or at Liverpool he would finish his education, "a-going to a Yankee school."

I am really enjoying the total fluidity / interchangeability of lyrical themes that Adams' chanties exemplify.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 07:10 PM

The rarely collected "Saucy Rosabella" may well date back to 1853 or even earlier.

See my note to the Rosabella thread (July 15, 2009).

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 04:07 PM

The Lacadio Hearn materials are fascinating and I love "Limber Jim". I was holding off on this since his article was not published until March of 1876.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 01:52 PM

Maybe time to revisit "Limber Jim"!
The Lafcadio Hearns stuff also looks like it has some promising material for this study...if you get bored today, John. :)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 01:18 PM

"Shallow Brown" Part 3

In the light of Gibb's posts, I want to qualify my statement about "bracketing" the Ellison version (Hugill d). What I want to bracket for now in my own head is the "West Indian" assumption about this version and "Shallow Brown" in general and the "West Indian" interpretation of the chanty in contemporary renditions of it. Whatever "West Indian" may mean here, I'm not so sure. Maybe I'm talking more about the really soulful, slow presentations like June Tabor, which I really like. Anyway, Gibb has convinced me that the Ellison version may not have anything to do with the West Indies at all.

I like working on these songs from both ends, going back from the end results in history and at the same time trying to find the originating points and coming forward. I think this back-and-forthness has served us well.

I'll begin with what *might* be the oldest version we have, which would be John Short's song collected by Cecil Sharp in 1914. I say it might be the earliest because Short went to sea in 1857. This version is interesting for a number of reasons.

The tune and the feel of this version is, on the surface, very different from the other versions. It sounds more like "Blow Boys, Blow" than "Shenandoah". I associate the slow presentations of "Shallow Brown" with similar presentations of "Shenandoah". Frankly, I'm not so sure either of them started out that way. Is it possible that "Shallow Brown" started out more like "Blow Boys, Blow", with a very strong emphasis on the pull? When I listen to most contemporary versions of SB, I wonder how any work ever got done!

Of course, Short's version picks up the verses from "Blow Boys, Blow", which gives us a connection between SB and this other chanty. One of the things I want to note are these connections. I don't know that we can make any firm conclusions about them but I think they are important to note. And I would suggest that rather than seeing Short's version as an anomaly, we hold it as a possible primary source.

I've already mentioned the Hugill comment that the solo line in Short's version uses the tune from "Hilo, Boys, Hilo". This ties SB into a whole nother set of songs, which Gibb has already introduced above. Hugill got his "Hilo" from Old Smith of Tobago, but the lyrics feel more like Gulf Port with some minstrel influence. This verse stands out:

        "Said the blackbird to the crow,
        Come down below with yer blackfaced crew."

The "blackbird/crow" phrase shows up in other places. Mobile Town and Sally Brown get in here along with some "bullgine pie". The "Hilo, Come Down Below" that Hugill presents from Harding is a nice followup with more "hilos" and blackbird stuff. Other than the fact that these two "Hilo" chanties come from West Indian sailors, there is nothing to tie them specifically to the West Indies. I am making the assumption that West Indian sailors learned songs from other places just like other sailors did.

I think that it is interesting to speculate about the possible relations among "Hilo", "hollow", "holler" (as in a place), "holler" (as in a yell), "aye oh", and perhaps "Shilo/Shallow". These variations might suggest a much stronger pull emphasis than we normally hear in this song, which again puts it more in the "Blow, Boys" category. The "B" and the "H" sounds are harder (?) than the "S" or French "C" sound. The "i" sound in "Hilo" and "Shilo" is more forceful to me than the "a" sound in "al-low" It's entirely possible that the song modulated over time.

I'm doing a lot of free associating here but perhaps that can open this up a bit. Both of these "Hilo" songs from Hugill are halyard songs. Hugill says that SB was "usually sung at halyards" in "the latter days of sail". (p. 257).

Here is a version of "Hilo, Boys, Hilo" from A CUBAN EXPEDITION, by J.H. Bloomfield, 1896. I think this can be dated to 1858. Check the Advent & Development thread for details on the dating. Here is the song:

http://books.google.com/books?id=WlhUsSH4QeUC&pg=PA282&dq=%22Hilo,+Boys,+Hilo%22&cd=6#v=onepage&q=%22Hilo%2C%20Boys%2C%20Hilo%22

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 09:40 AM

I just posted this on the Advent & Development thread and I want to post it here as well since it follows up on Gibb's two posts above.
---
Here is another reference to "going to Georgia", which introduces the "Jenny gone away" song as well. The line is

"Oh! my massa told me, there's no grass in Georgia."

"Upon inquiring the meaning of which, I was told it was supposed to be the lamentation of a slave from one of the more northerly states, Virginia or Carolina, where the labor of hoeing the weeds, or grass as they call it, is not nearly so severe as here, in the rice and cotton lands of Georgia. Another very pretty and pathethic tune began with words that seemed to promise something sentimental -

    "Fare you well, and good-by, oh, oh!
    I'm goin' away to leave you, oh, oh!"

http://books.google.com/books?id=WaFiAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA128&dq=Jenny+gone+away&cd=2#v=onepage&q=Jenny%20gone%20away&f=false

This is from JOURNAL OF A RESIDENCE ON A GEORGIAN PLANTATION IN 1838-1839, by Fanny Kemble.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 08:50 AM

Yes, Gibb! This is very helpful, and was in the back of my mind, especially the "hollow" piece. Connecting it to "Georgia" is very important. I've been having a sense for some time that this song could have emerged from the southern US plantation context. Hugill mentions that the solo tune in Sharp's version of "Shallow Brown" (from Short) is the same as that of "Hilo, Boys, Hilo" (pp. 257 & 255/'61). This is one of the directions I wanted to explore and you have just added a whole new dimension to it. This is exactly what I was getting at when I said it is important to bracket the familiar ways in which we are used to hearing these songs. I think there are connections between "hilo" and "hollow" and "shallow" and "shilo". We have three examples of "Shiloh Brown", which I will get to. I think that African American pronunciation sounds were hard for white folks to hear clearly and all kinds of permutations were possible. Your latest note on the Advent & Development thread about the "Shannydore, Sally, Blow Boys" song is also important in this mix. I realize this is a jumbled up note, but I think there is a lot to look at and talk about here and on a dreary, rainy Sunday, it looks like great fun, so I'll see what I can come up with. You've given me a good start here, Gibb.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 08:27 PM

Turns out "sold to Georgia" was indeed a common trope. Here is a great piece of evidence for that.

From "The London Literary Gazette," Oct. 23, 1819

I ought to have mentioned, that the nergroes of Maryland and Virginia, for some reason or other, have an invincible repugnance to being sold to the Southward. Whether this repugnauce arises from an idea that they will be treated with more severity, or is only the natural dislike every human being, except our fashionable ladies, feels to going to live in a strange land, far from all association with early scenes, and first born attachments, I cannot tell. I know not that these poor souls are worse treatedini Carolina and Georgia, nor have I any reason to believe so; certain it is, however, that they discover an unwillingness amounting almost to horror, at the idea of being sold there; and have a simple song which they sometimes, as I am told, sing with a mournful melancholy cadence, as they row along the rivers, in remembrance of home. It is merely the language of nature:—

Going away to Georgia, ho, heave, O !
Massa sell poor negro, ho, heave, O!
Leave poor wife and children, ho, heave, O !

The negroes have a great number of songs, of their own composition, and founded on various little domestic incidents; particularly the deaths of their masters and mistresses, who, if they have been kind to them, are remembered in their homely strains, some of which sound very affeclingly, but would probably make no great figure on paper. I have heard that in some instances they go to their graves, and invoice their spirits to interpose, it they are treated ill, or threatened to be sold at a distance. There is something of the true pathetic in all this, were these people not negroes. This spoils all; for we have got such an inveterate habit of divesting them of all the best attributes of humanity, in order to justify our oppressions, that the idea of connecting feeling or sentiment with a slave, actually makes us laugh.

Due to the prevalence of the trope of "sold to / bound away to Georgia," which was standard code for sadness and separation, I am sure it was used in many songs, as in the work-song of this example.   I presume Ellison was a White Englishman (?), and the resonant phrase "sold to Georgia" would probably not be within his frame of reference. The song may have had such a phrase, and he adjusted it --it it weren't already changed-- to something else in that frame of reference.

This speaks to the large issue of how Whites received (i.e. with what degree of understanding they received) Blacks' songs (and vice versa, of course).

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 06:54 PM

I wouldn't read to deeply into "St. George's" re: ascribing a West Indian connection. How well known would that place really have been? But I think it *is* a clue. Might it have been a variation of Georgia? I don't know if you've seen my notes on these two songs in the 'Advent' thread:

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=128220#2892523

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=128220#2891821

The first, "Johnny come down the hollow" has a similar theme to Shallow Brown. And one could imagine the "Oh hollow!" chorus being related to "shallow, oh shallow...!" It's description as "a singularly wild and plaintive air" evokes the style of Shallow Brown and NOT, to my mind, "Johnny come down to Hilo" (which may just be a catch phrase that happens to appear in this rendition).

The second touches on the "sold off to Georgia" theme, perhaps borrowing that line from a stock of floating verses. "Sold off to Georgy" also has a chorus (o-ho, o-ho!) that one could swap with "shallow brown." I think there is a connection -- some kind of heritage to Shallow Brown that we are seeing here.

Perhaps someone knows whether Georgia was, in the minds of slaves from places like South Carolina and Maryland, a comparatively and particularly dreaded place.

The entire set of lyrics in this version of "Shallow", IMO, need to be taken to form a cogent image. It could come from an in-land slave song about being sold off, with no mention of ships. The whaleship might come in as a floating verse from the likes of "Sally Brown," since in that one it seems common to have used rhymes about tailors, sailors, and whalers.

Then again, perhaps this particular version *was* shaped in the West Indies, where the less meaningful "Georgia" was changed to the closest thing that makes sense ("St George") and the maritime lines added in.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 05:42 PM

This is Part II on "Shallow Brown".

I want to look at the different versions that we have in the bibliography above. Some are quite different, either because of their tunes or because of their lyrics. Two qualifications are necessary. I do not read music and make no claims to being a musicologist, so my work with the tunes is always going to be rough. I also realize that chanty lyrics are very fluid and that you can't make very solid arguments based on particular lyrics.

I also realize that the way *we* hear these chanties today is very much influenced by the recording industry among other things. I think that "Shallow Brown" has had some major influences along the way in modern times. What I have to say about this is entirely subjective and based on my own experience and may not apply to anyone else. But, surely, the Percy Grainger arrangement has had some major impact on how we hear "Shallow Brown" today. I am thinking about speed, intensity, feeling, and artistic arrangement. The chanty is a beautiful song in its own right, and the Grainger piece is beautiful in its own right.

Speaking of which, does anyone have the John Perring words that were collected by Grainger? I can't seem to find them anywhere, either on Mudcat or on Google. That seems a bit strange to me.

Hugill says that he feels that "Shallow Brown" is "of West Indian origin" because "some singers giving the refrain of 'Challo Brown' - 'Challo' being a West Indian word of Carib extractin meaning a 'half-caste', and heard as far afield as the ports of Chile." (p. 257/'61). I certainly always "felt" like this was a West Indian chanty, too. But what is the basis for that "feeling"? It is true that Hugill has a version from the Barbadian, Harding, but he only gives one verse and as near as I can tell, there is nothing particularly distinctive about Harding's tune. It looks to be similar to that of Robinson or Whall. Harding could have learned it anywhere.

I think what makes this chanty feel like it's West Indian are a few verses from one very particular version, and then many recordings of this. Interestingly enough, it's the version that Sharp collected from Robert Ellison, which Hugill gives as his (d) version. Do we have any particulars on this Robert Ellison?

It is in the Ellison version that we have the very familiar verses about "shipping on board a whaler," about being "bound away to St. George's," the only mention I can find of "Julianna" (which I think completely re-orients this song - more about this), and then the sequence about "massa going to sell me" to "a Yankee" for "the dollar," that "great big Spanish dollar." As far as I've been able to find, these verses don't show up in any other version. I think that they are as unique as Harlowe's completely different version about Shallow Brown in New York, Baltimore, Washington, Mobile Bay, New Orleans, and "Phila-me-delf." Who ever sings that version. Here is the Ellison version from Hugill:

http://books.google.com/books?id=WOQ9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA260&dq=Shallow+Brown+(d)&cd=1#v=onepage&q=Shallow%20Brown%20(d)&f=false

and from Sharp:

http://www.archive.org/stream/englishfolkchant00shar#page/60/mode/2up

As near as I can tell, the only verse in all of the versions that makes a specific reference to the West Indies is the one in the Ellison version about being "bound to St. George's," which is "one of the main islands of the territory of Bermuda" (Wikipedia). Any of the other verses, even in Ellison's version, could have originated anywhere in the African American context.

My point is, that it is necessary *for me*, to bracket the Ellison version and how it sounds in my ears, in order to begin to see more clearly the scope and history of this chanty.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 11:13 AM

Another favorite chanty of mine that I wish I could place on board the "Julia Ann" is "Shallow Brown". I've been working on this and so far I have not been able to date it back far enough. But I have had a few interesting thoughts along the way that I wanted to share. I will do this in several steps.

First of all, here is the published bibliography on "Shallow Brown" *that I have been able to look at*, done chronologically by the earliest publication date of the materials:

Alden, W.L., "Sailors' Shanties and Sea Songs," CHAMBERS JOURNAL, 1869
Smith, Laura A., THE MUSIC OF THE WATERS, 1888
Davis, J. & Tozer, Ferris, SAILOR SONGS OR "CHANTIES", 1906
Sharp, Cecil J., ENGLISH FOLK-CHANTEYS, 1914
Robinson, Capt. John, "Songs of the Chantey Man," THE BELLMAN, Vol. 23, 1917
Whall, Capt. W.B., SHIPS, SEA SONGS AND SHANTIES, 1927, fr. 1910
Colcord, Joanna C., ROLL AND GO, SONGS OF AMERICAN SAILORMEN, 1924
Terry, R.R., THE SHANTY BOOK, Part II, 1926
James M. Carpenter Collection, 1929
Parrish, Lydia, THE SLAVE SONGS OF THE GEORGIA SEA ISLANDERS, 1942
Harlow, F.P., CHANTEYING ABOARD AMERICAN SHIPS, 1948
Doerflinger, W.M., SHANTYMEN AND SHANTY BOYS, 1951
Hugill, Stan, SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS, 1961
Fowke, Edith, SEA SONGS AND BALLADS FROM NINETEENTH CENTURY NOVA SCOTIA, 1981

{I want to thank Lighter for making available to me the following versions: Robinson, Davis& Tozer, Fowke, and Terry.}

As we know, the "publication" dates don't necessarily tell the whole story. In some cases the materials were collected much earlier than they were published. And in other cases, what is published is based on recollections of much earlier experiences. Sometimes we can date this in a very specific way and other times we can only lay down possibilities based on our knowledge of when a singer went to and was at sea. Here is the bibliography re-arranged with this additional information:

Sharp, Cecil J., ENGLISH FOLK-CHANTEYS, 1914
        John Short 1857
        Robert Ellison ?

Robinson, Capt. John, "Songs of the Chantey Man," THE BELLMAN, Vol. 23, 1917
        John Robinson, 1859

Whall, Capt. W.B., SHIPS, SEA SONGS AND SHANTIES, 1927, fr. 1910
        W.B. Whall, 1861-1872

Alden, W.L., "Sailors' Shanties and Sea Songs," CHAMBERS JOURNAL, 1869

Doerflinger, W.M., SHANTYMEN AND SHANTY BOYS, 1951
        Richard Maitland, 1869

Hugill, Stan, SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS, 1961
        Harding, late 1860's

James M. Carpenter Collection, 1929
        William Fender, 1878-1900        
        John Middleton, 1879-1894

Harlow, F.P., CHANTEYING ABOARD AMERICAN SHIPS, 1948
        F.P. Harlow, 1879

James M. Carpenter Collection, 1929
        Alexander Henderson, 1885-1902
        Thomas Carfrae, 1886

Smith, Laura A., THE MUSIC OF THE WATERS, 1888

Davis, J. & Tozer, Ferris, SAILOR SONGS OR "CHANTIES", 1906

Fowke, Edith, SEA SONGS AND BALLADS FROM NINETEENTH CENTURY NOVA SCOTIA, 1981, fr. 1940 ms, based on recollections

Parrish, Lydia, THE SLAVE SONGS OF THE GEORGIA SEA ISLANDERS, 1942
        Collected in 1909 from ex-slaves

Terry, R.R., THE SHANTY BOOK, Part II, 1926

Hugill, Stan, SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS, 1961
          Stan Hugill, 1920's

It is possible to narrow this down a bit because there is some overlap. I think Laura Smith's version is taken from the second half of Alden's version. Colcord gives us Robinson's version. So we can eliminate L. Smith and Colcord from our considerations. Hugill gives us John Short's version and Robert Ellison's version from Sharp, and also the version from Davis & Tozer, as well as his own version and one from Harding.

From this, we can see that the earliest published version *that I have seen* is from Alden in 1869. From the sources we have *that I have seen*, the earliest possible date from a singer being at sea is from John Short in 1857. We don't know if he learned "Shallow Brown" in 1857. There's a twelve year gap between these two dates.

In the next post, I want to look at some of the differences among the versions we do have.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 06:19 PM

Oh yes, that's right. Thanks. I was looking at an 1889 text, and I couldn't remember what else there had been.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 06:06 PM

Gibb, my earliest source is from ONCE A WEEK, "On Shanties", August 1, 1868, p. 92:

"Blow, boys, blow, for California, O,
There's plenty of gold in the land, I'm told,
    On the banks of the Sacramento."

http://books.google.com/books?id=8dRMAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA92-IA4&dq=%22So+blow,+boys,+blow,+for+Californio%22&lr=&cd=12#v=onepage&q&f=f

I've not found anything else until later.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 05:19 PM

What is the earliest published reference you guys are finding for "Sacramento"? Is it before 1889?