Memorial Day, A Look Back

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST,Peace Matriot
Date: 28 May 02 - 11:41 AM

Norton1, I beg to differ. I do see a big difference in attitudes towards the military between conscripts and enlistees, especially the lifers and those who served "like their fathers" etc etc.

To say that conscripts have a free choice simply isn't correct. Enlistees aren't faced with prison time if they choose not to go into military service. Conscripts are. They lose their freedom, if they don't report for military service when told to do so. That makes for a much different mindset, in my experience.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST,Peace Matriot
Date: 28 May 02 - 11:35 AM

And Big Mick, I suffer no delusions about my family suffering more than most, so that comment was just as way off as your original and subsequent post. We made no sacrifices. The conscripts were merely doing what the law required them to do. No one in my family views military service as a sacrifice, because it isn't. That sort of language is just more glorification of nationalist war sentiments, and manipulating the grief of soldier's survivors by the patriot propagandists.

The "fuck you" was for having the gall to suggest to a complete stranger that they spit on soldiers returning from war. Your arrogance about your view and opinion being more right than mine, and your presumption about a total stranger, made that a REALLY WAY OFF comment. You get as good as you give. What you gave me was a "fuck you" without using the actual words.

If you want to know why my response to you has been so strong, I suggest you reread your own original response to me.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 28 May 02 - 11:33 AM

Well said GUEST,Peace Matriot. Same thing we are all saying - only this time you did it in a non-accusatory manner. Makes a big difference.

There is one little thing I'd like to address here though. Your Dad served because he chose it as the lesser of two evils. It was still a choice. And to say that it is different from those who signed up is a cop out and a disservice to that choice. I respect choices. Why people make them is none of my business.

I am glad you had a good weekend. I lucked out and was able to not work at anything except thowing some hay to horses and enjoyiong some fine friends. I can mow the yard tonight.

Steve

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 May 02 - 11:31 AM

Well I felt some of what I think Guest, Matriot has felt, but I separate the way I feel about our politicians, including Bush, and the way they used the day to promote their brand of patriotism and the supposed "war" we are in, from a day set aside to remember the dead. In our family it was always to remember all of those passed on, no matter who they were or how they died, military or not.

There is nothing wrong with being angry about the way patriotism, war, etc. are being touted in our country right now, but I do not believe this is the thread for the vitriol posted by Matriot, nor do I think Memorial Day has to just be about the loss of military loss. Just my feelings on it.

kat

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST,Peace Matriot
Date: 28 May 02 - 11:25 AM

Like I said, I and my family don't recognize the day, nor do we remember lost loved ones "with the nation". Ever. We have done our grieving privately, and will continue to do so. No one in our family has ever enlisted in the military--all were conscripts. Therein lies a huge difference, in my experience. People who have made a free choice to enlist simply do not view the military and the nationalist fervor surrounding it in the same way that conscripts and their families do.

Conscripts go fight wars because they fear the consequences of not complying with the law, and what their government will do to them for non-compliance.

My vitriol is directed at the people who say I dishonor those who have fought by not acquiescing to their point of view. Whether people view themselves as militarists or not isn't the point. Getting up in somebody's face because they choose NOT to honor their dead "with the nation" is what I object to.

On Saturday, I had a nouveau patriot twenty something kid in my face at the liquor store about the "honoring of the war dead". How did that one start? I noticed that the liquor store was going to be open on Memorial Day, and so was making small talk with him (the cashier). I said I was sorry he had to work the holiday, meaning it sincerely, the same I would if someone had to work on New Years or whatever legal holiday.

He then went off on a tirade about the only people who would shop the liquor store on Memorial Day were a bunch of drunks, and he didn't think that was right. He went on to say he thought everyone should do something patriotic, especially for those who had died on 9/11.

If people don't realize just how strong the hate is out there for anyone who isn't towing the Republican Party Patriot line these days--including in our everyday lives (like at the liquor store, or checking in to Mudcat) they don't have a clue as to what I'm on about.

We should all have the our rights honored to spend Memorial Day any way we wish to, without people getting up in our faces about choosing not to celebrate the day at all. Which is the way, I'm guessing, most Americans actually spend Memorial Day. Picnics and barbeques with friends and family? Sure, a lot of people do that. Me and my neighbors (most of whom are former military people too) mostly did yard work.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Jeri
Date: 28 May 02 - 11:00 AM

Some people fall into the trap of believing a thing has to mean the same thing to them as it does to others. Memorial Day is about remembering the individuals, the "little people" who gave their lives for their home. It's not about the generals, admirals, political leaders or causes but about the soldiers, sailors and airmen and civilians

"Causes are ashes where children lie slain."

Causes are ashes.
Viet Nam vets, in particular, were/are often hated - because of the causes they represented and the causes of the haters, not because of who they were. If a person makes their cause more important than the people, they're doing virtually the same thing as any war-monger. If a person has enough hate in your heart to tell Mrs. Smith to her face that her son deserved to die or simply be forgotten, they're more heartless than any vet marching in a parade. Memorial Day, for me, is for people, not causes.

I planted things in my garden yesterday. I recorded a couple of songs for the Mudcat CD. I spent a lot of time outdoors and noticed the beauty there. And when it was night and the storm rolled in, I watched the lightening and listened to the thunder and the gentle rain; the rain that washes ashes away.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 28 May 02 - 10:52 AM

There is no way to answer the GUEST,Peace Matriot without invoking ire. And ire is what leads to war. I don't see anyone on a "High Horse" here except yourself. You sound like a "Born again" person with only one view - so when you post your little diatribe after this post remember that "It don't mean nothin."

You are just looking for a scrap and that makes you no better than those that glamorize, or patrioticize, war/service to country. Lot of hollow crap that incites as opposed to honest remembrances of those lost. Seems to me you are the one doing the trivializing. Your Dad served because he was conscripted. He had a choice to not serve but he did. There is always a choice. So quit your finger pointing and accept that not everyone here sees things the same way - that's a fact. If you had read all of the posts and not taken issue with the one or two that didn't meet with your approval maybe you wouldn't have gotten so defensive/offensive.

Just my opinion -

Steve

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 May 02 - 10:50 AM

No chip, eh? You think yours is the only family affected. This is a tactic I have seen often....."no one has suffered like me". I am sorry for your families sacrifices. I lost friends, relatives and damn near my soul. I hope you deal with it and learn to separate your loathing for war and its cost, from your loathing of those of us who don't celebrate miliarism but try and honor the fallen. You are wrong about painting me as a militarist. If you would research my stands on this here in the Forum, you would find that I hate the glorification of war. You would find that clearly that you and I agree on more than we disagree. But that would require effort and you are too busy being lost in your hate. Too bad. I hope all goes well. I won't tell you to fuck off as you did me. Instead I will just pity that you can't see clearly. And wish you peace.

Mick

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST,Peace Matriot
Date: 28 May 02 - 10:43 AM

I have no chip on my shoulder, I just get fed up with holier than thou militarists getting in my face with THEIR opinions of how I should react to war.

You are also dead wrong about me being one of "the ones that spit on you"--talk about chips on shoulders.

I have a cousin who was killed in Vietnam, and a brother who came home permanently disabled from the war (lost his leg to up above the knee).

So fuck you Big Mick.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 May 02 - 10:39 AM

I wasn't preaching and I thought I made that clear. I was asking questions. You clearly have a chip on your shoulder, probably because your views are somewhat controversial. I apologize if you thought I was preaching. But do yourself a favor. Next time you accuse someone of being on a high horse, read your own post. People like you are the ones that spit on me when I came home a confused man/kid. It seems as though you harbor a lot of resentment. Have a nice life.

Mick

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST,Peace Matriot
Date: 28 May 02 - 10:32 AM

Guest said, "Without living memory, we are forced to repeat history."

You are confusing sentimentalizing with rationality. If honoring war dead actually resulted in an end to war, I'd be all for it. As it is, these government sponsored "official" miliatry holidays do nothing more than sentimentalize and nobilize the use of boys as cannon fodder.

I take back what I said about the 9/11 thing--there has been a definite increase in the number of teenage and twenty something boys who have been dazzled by the glamorization of "sacrificing for your country" propaganda in the wake of 9/11. It shows in the increased numbers enlisting in the military, so it follows that we'd see more teens and twenties at the Memorial Day celebrations.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST,Peace Matriot
Date: 28 May 02 - 10:19 AM

I don't disrespect the dead or the living, nor do I drag their memories through the mud. Don't preach to me, I've lost family members in wars too Big Mick. My family could honor their war dead going all the way back to WWI, but we don't. We never have, and never will. So get off your high and mighty war horse, and accept the fact that we don't all see the "rememberance" celebrations the same way.

Conscription sucks. War sucks. The idea of ennobling the fighting of rich men's wars sickens me, just as it did my father, who fought (by conscription) in WWII, and lost a brother in that war as well.

Inflicting pain, suffering, terror and disease on huge numbers of human beings in the name of "just war" doesn't fly with me, regardless of which side we are on. There is no "good" side in a war, period. And a whole lot of people DO NOT choose to remember their war dead in that way, or any sort of patriotic way at all.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: PeteBoom
Date: 28 May 02 - 10:04 AM

I did what I've done for several years. Put on my kilt, joined the rest of the folks from the pipe band and play our way through the small town where we are officially from, and where we practice. The Legion guys lead the way, we pipe them to the cemetary followed by a couple of fire trucks, then the boy scouts and the middle and high school bands. After the high school band goes past, the folks watching the parade join in and follow us to the cemetary.

The Legion post commander placed a wreath at the memorial to the town's war dead (a surprising number considering the size of the town), the fire fighters, 6 of the 7 were combat vets, placed a wreath between fire fighter boots and helmet, a State Senator talked for about 5 minutes, local pastor gave a short prayer, we played Amazing Grace, the honor guard fired a sulte, a trumpeter played taps and that ended it. The fire fighters were the only variance from the last several years.

We do this not because we owe it to the "elite" - but because of the debt we owe to our friends, brothers, fathers and grandfathers (for the younger ones) who were drafted ("called" is the usual word at ceremonies like this) from "regular" life, high school in the case of WWII, and went off to fight a war they did not start. We do this because they were willing to act at a time when cynicism was not quite so rampant. We remember those who went and did not come back - just as we remember the boys (literally) who left and came back as shades of their former self. My father was drafted into WWII two weeks after his 18th birthday - the guy living next to us when I was a kid was drafted 2 weeks after graduating from high school. He went to Viet Nam and came back a changed person. The officer types aren't why we're there. We go there for the ones who were sent whether they wanted to go or not.

Pete

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 28 May 02 - 09:58 AM

I took a friend's children for rides on my Harley, played music for the third day in a row, and we all said a dinner prayer for those who are in harm's way. It was a lovely weekend with lots of friends, tons of music, and much remembering. Best I've had in nearly 40 years.

Steve

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 May 02 - 09:20 AM

Thanks, GUEST and Mario, for putting to words better than I what I was trying to say.

Mick

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: MMario
Date: 28 May 02 - 09:18 AM

To mourn and remember the dead is not necessarily to condone how or why they died.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 02 - 09:17 AM

Matriot, Without their sacrifice, you would not have the right to do as you please. Nothing glorifies war, Memorial Day only remembers the cost. Without living memory, we are forced to repeat history.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 May 02 - 09:10 AM

Peace Matriot, why can't you distinguish between the warriors and the war mongers? I ask this with no ill will and I am not chastising you. Young men and women who go to fight are often torn between their patriotic feelings and their natural inclination to question. Can you not find it within you to at least use the day to mourn the loss of these young ones, and honor their sacrifice? Your post, if read by parents that have lost their sons/daughters, would seem so heartless and I don't get that sense from it. I get the sense of anger at all war. Fair enough, but can you not see the disrespect you shower on the fallen? I think I would like your devotion, and find a great deal of common ground with you. But I would have a very difficult time with the idea of "going shopping" just to show 'em.

Mick

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 28 May 02 - 09:08 AM

...oops! Gotta go vote! Today is primary election day!

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 28 May 02 - 09:03 AM

...lest we forget . This has been in my thoughts often the last month.

I attended a special ceremony honoring a long time friend who is active in the war on terrorism, one of the finest human beings I've ever known. I've recently visited with two elderly relatives who've talked about their lives in the 40's. I discussed old times with them and how our lives have changed, especiall since 9/11. The traveling Vietnam Wall was in our town last week and a former student did a beautiful photo journalism essay on visitors to the wall, of special significance to this town. So many people to remember...

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST,Peace Matriot
Date: 28 May 02 - 08:39 AM

I did what I always do on Memorial Day, which is ignore the war mongerers to the best of my ability, and enjoy an extra day off.

As to the "first Memorial Day since 9/11" thing, I think it is over reach, and an obvious attempt to keep 9/11 at the top of the news cycles. Cheap and sleezy militarist sentimentalizing and sensationalizing. Memorial Day is all about propagandizing for the military. Victims of 9/11 weren't soldiers, but civilians. We aren't at war, we were victims of a terrorist attack. I make those distinctions, despite the ruling elite's attempts to blur them, and make "linkages" where they don't exist.

I'm sure my opinion won't be welcomed in this thread, seeing the posts which have come before it. But there you have it.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Banjer
Date: 28 May 02 - 05:40 AM

Seems only fair that I share my Memorial Day experience since I asked the questions!

Instead of being involved with a ceremony as a Civil War Reenactor this year i went to the local Veterans Administration. The ceremony was held at the large cemetery there. It was a nice ceremony. The Clearwater High School JROTC Color Guard presented the colors followed with the usual speechmaking by various officials. The band was excellent!! Playing many patriotic songs and representing all the braches of the service in a musical salute. The one thing that stands out was the close of one of the representatives of Congressmans Young's office. He said that 'This is the land of the free because it is also the home of the brave'

I was happy to see the large number of youngsters there. If all those kids carry the tradition forward and pass it on to their kids the spirit of the day will live forever!

The remainder of the day was split between bike riding for a total of thirteen and a half miles and spending some quiet time at home.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 May 02 - 10:40 PM

We stayed home, today. I understand there was a lot of bagpipe playing at ceremonies in cemeteries, but we didn't hear any.

We travelled up the Colorado River, yesterday, to the town my mom and dad grew up in. Went to the cemetery where all of my grandparents and some great-grandparents are buried, along with my mom and various aunts and uncles. Met all of my cousins most of whom I'd not seen since the late 60's. The cemetery is one of my favourite places. I saw a lot of flowers, but not any more flags than usual, though there may have been more put up, today. Out of all of my relatives, I cannot think of a one who died in service. Some died from service related injuries or PTSD, many years later, but none in the line of duty, which seems extraordinary considering many of them went through the two world wars, and subsequent ones.

It was a peacfeful and delightful visit which turned my mind to old times, old folks, and the old stories.

Thanks, Banj,

kat

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 27 May 02 - 10:00 PM

I saw more flags (mine has been displayed on my house all weekend), I heard the 21 gun salute at the NG Armory near my house, I put a flag on my father's grave (the American Legion hadn't gotten there yet), I was driving past a small cemetary and saw the bugler ready to play taps, I watched the TV shows last night (a little disappointed at the music), and I had many conversations with family and friends...all aware of our relatives and loved ones in the services. I was planning to drive an elderly friend to visit her mother's grave in another county Sat. night, but a brief hailstorm kept us near home. The weather today was gorgeous, many people seemed to be working in their yards, planting flowers, etc.

Subject: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Banjer
Date: 27 May 02 - 09:30 PM

Now that the day is behind us how did YOU spend the first Memorial Day since 9/11/01? Did you do anything different from previous ones? Did the day seem to take on a new meaning for anybody? Did anyone notice, as I did, many more youg people at the ceremonies around town? What are your thoughts on how your town celebrated the day?