BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:58 AM

Hubby--

I echo Kat's posting of 15 April 2005 3:14 PM. But, closer to home--I recall you said you've had several businesses, all of which failed.   Perhaps your attitude toward employees---they should be grateful to get anything above minimum wage-- played a role.

It certainly does illustrate crystal-clear the need for unions--to counter such selfish and shortsighted greed.

Contrast your entrepreneurial record with that of Bobert--he started a successful business. I suspect his attitude toward employees was vastly different from yours.

As Kat says, there is in fact a point to treating employees decently. A few pennies above minimum wage doesn't cut it.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:41 AM

It is, however, quite interesting---Doug R and "Martin" have been waxing lyrical on the wonders of Walmart for at least the year I've been a member of Mudcat, and telling us about all the ordinary people who are invested in it, as well as, I'd say, implying that it's a good investment. During that time Walmart stock has been one of the worst performing of the Dow.

So, the question now becomes--are they ignorant or hypocritical?

Taking the charitable interpretation, I would say they are ignorant.

In fact, it just continues a virtually unbroken string of absurd claims and false information from them.

Caveat emptor.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:24 AM

Ron: thank you very much for worrying about my portfolio. However, I really don't think I require your help. Look our for yourself, my friend.

Mick: I understand your POV as a Union organizer. You have to make a living, and I'm sure you are good at your job. However, there must be some reason why there has been a decrease in Union membership over the past few years. What accounts for it it?

Unions served a useful purpose years ago, but I think they have outlived their time. It's a new world, Mick, and I'd urge you to find other more employment with a more promising future. Just my opinion of course.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:16 AM

Its the only thing some people understand. If you hit them in the pocket, they start to get the picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 11:47 PM

"Martin"--

You neglected to mention, however, that Walmart stock hit a new low for the year last Friday and has been stagnant for several years. Costco, however, has done well in recent years, and is still, even after Friday, much closer to its high for the year than its low.

Interestingly, Macroslop (Microsoft) has also reeked as an investment in the past few years, and is now dragging along the bottom of its range. Meanwhile Apple has close to tripled in the past year (even after Friday)).

Perhaps the monopolies are falling on hard times (poor boys).

Certainly hope you, Martin, and Doug et al. were smart enough to bail out of Walmart several years ago. The market doesn't seem to share your enthusiasm for Walmart. But then you always know better than the market, so I'm sure you'll be fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:33 PM

And this just in:

Wal-Mart stock is up today .18/share

Shitloads of shares traded by people who believe in what Wal-Mart does.
Why is that? Because they do business smart, perhaps.


Whiners here equals completely zero effect. As DougR says, "zilch"

I said it before, the complainers here know much about business, hate corporations, and most things that they feel in this country that is good. No wonder we have so many here that are depressed, taking meds, just sitting at some computer all day, and sick or infirmed.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:14 PM

And by the way, Doug. The courts have found them guilty, time and again. But you keep alibi'ing them, buddy.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:13 PM

Hubby, you went from being a guy with a point of view, in my opinion, to a slogan slinging idiot. Perhaps you could come up with some data to back the assertion that unions are criminals. Perhaps you could check the financial bonding rates for union rep's as opposed to small businessmen, large businessmen, Walmart store managers, preachers, rabbi's, etc. and see how we stack up. I think you will find less corruption in our ranks than yours. But you just want to play into stereotypes. It is the sign of a weak mind.

Unions haven't driven the work to China, greed has. If you were to check back a mere 20 years or so you would find that the average business owner made about 70 bucks for every dollar their employee made. Today it is something like 800 bucks. Do you know anyone else whose pay went up like that with or without a union? I didn't think so.

Find someone else to blame for the fact that you probably weren't a very good manager of your business. Cliche's don't hold water in a debate.

You, Martin, and the so called Fair Minded one are just shills. I don't buy into any of that.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:13 PM

kat: I read your post and the sources you supplied to support your point of view. In my opinion, it adds up to zilch. If the state of California takes the Berkley study seriously, let the state file suit against Wal-Mart to recover the welfare money the study suggests Wal-Mart employees have siphoned from the state treasury. I wouldn't take bets on the state winning the case however. If Wal-Mart employees are not satisfied with their employer, or with the salary they are making they should make haste to find employment at a company they would like better and pays better wages than Wal-Mart.

As to the other source, all you have brought to our attention is a class-action law suit that has evidently been in the courts for years. Wal-Mart has not been found guilty of anything, nor have they been exonerated. I would not be surprised if similar law suits against Wal-Mart is pending in other parts of the country too. How do you you think the trial lawyers make so much money? Filing law-suits against potential money sources! Wal-Mart's got a big round target printed right over it's logo.

Let the courts decide and if Wal-Mart is found guilty, THEN offer the case as evidence. It's still "not guilty" until proven so in the U. S. isn't it?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 07:49 PM

You guys swallow anything you read in the newspaper. How do I know I the associates are providing facts. No question, I'm interested but how do I know they aren't disgruntled about something and want to hurt the company. I remember when Jane Pawley (sp) years ago had a negative story about Walmart that never developed further. Since then there have been others, and if I were a reporter, maybe I'd also be trying to break the story of the decade, but I'd do everything possible to make certain what I reported is accurate. I haven't seen one thing in my paper about Thomas M. Coughlin, which I think is strange. This is a large metropolitan area with an award-winning paper. However, I don't trust journalism as I did when I was younger. Too many apologies these days from editors for inaccurate info, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: jpk
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:16 PM

hi idiot,i am one of those poor people. i just want something i buy to last more than 10 min,like maybe 10 yrs,to me a good deal is paying for something once,not over&over&over,etc. mostly well made,not well it was made;but it broke

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:08 PM

100th post for the workers!

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:06 PM

jpk, maybe you are just smelling the inside of your nose.

Or maybe it's the poor people that can afford to shop there that offends you so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: jpk
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:49 PM

i can live with or without wm, i will not buy from there,reason being,when you walk into a wm,you can smell the cheapness.not in price, but in quality.cheap as in you get less than you paid for.each to his/her own i guess

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:06 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Guest, Pinion I understand that you are on the verge of bankruptcy because of how poorly you spend and manage your money.

fuck unions where they are not wanted.

Unions have driven most labor costs right to China.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:25 PM

From Walmart's own policies:

5. BUY AMERICAN COMMITMENT

    Wal-Mart has a strong commitment to buy as much merchandise made in the United States as feasible. Vendor Partners are encouraged to buy as many materials and components from United States sources as possible and communicate this information to Wal-Mart. Further, Vendor Partners are encouraged to establish U.S. manufacturing operations.

Nearly everything I've ever seen at a Walmart has a "Made in China" label on it. Seems they were smart to include the caveat, "as feasible" in the above. What irks me is they are a big enough company that they could have a strong and real effect on changing this, as robomatic has pointed out they've done to the Amercican economy.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:20 PM

Guest, Sally, are you also "fairminded Sally". Regardless, keep contributing to the thread. Your words may appear to be ignored and yet you'll find someone will glom onto this thread and appreciate them. Also, I believe most of the people on this thread are in fact fairminded (in the long run). I just watched an American public television show, FRONTLINE, episode titled "Is Wal-Mart good For America?" I liked the show because I think it presented both sides and did not draw its own conclusion. It did not deal with union issues at all, rather it dealt with the changes in the American economy wrought by Wal-MART as being such a large consumer goods force that it now dominated its suppliers, which is a major change in the order of economic structure in the US. And driven by (extremely) cheap overseas labor, Wal-Mart has chosen (rather recently, beginning in the 90's) to be supplied by overseas suppliers (read: China) directly supplanting local labor, from blue collar to white collar as entire companies go under or are bought by other companies.

Wal-Mart representative justly said that consumers are the big beneficiaries because they can buy goods at lower prices. Displaced workers say the United States is the loser as goods are produced overseas and jobs go with them.

I don't think it is obvious who is right or wrong just yet. As usual, the economy is like a deadly serious game of Musical Chairs, and the rewards go to the adaptable. But is there enough raw material to keep all the adaptors going? The balance of trade suggests the answer is: "no", but that's my first cut answer. The US economy has proven to be quite ruggedly adaptable before and there may be surprises in the old gal yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:44 PM

Okay, here are some excerpts, with sources. Fair warning, the last link leads to MANY articles which I have not waded through, so DON'T blame me if you don't agree with some of them; I post them as a matter of interest and will read some as I get time. Good luck on your move, Sally.

UC Berkeley study estimates Wal-Mart employment policies cost California taxpayers $86 million a year

"By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations | 02 August 2004

BERKELEY – Employment policies at Wal-Mart, the nation's largest employer, cost California taxpayers approximately $86 million a year in public assistance to company workers, according to a University of California, Berkeley, study released today (Monday, Aug. 2).

"The study indicates that Wal-Mart workers in California rely on the state for about $32 million annually in health-related services, and $54 million a year in other assistance such as subsidized school lunches, food stamps and subsidized housing." (there's more via the link)

From the Terra Haute Business Journal:

Click here for full text (I would urge you to read the whole thing)

"This lawsuit involves more than 113,000 potential plaintiffs, amounting to all Indiana Wal-Mart employees—including those working at Sam's Clubs—from August 1, 1998, to the present, and involves allegations that Wal-Mart and its managers refused to allow employees lunch and other breaks, as well as other violations of Wal-Mart employment policy and Indiana law regarding off the-clock and overtime work.

"Reynolds Brissenden, attorney with the firm representing the plaintiffs, said in a telephone interview that these alleged violations were systematic and profit-motivated. "I will say this, it's remarkable how employees that we've interviewed from the same departments, but from stores as far north as La Porte and as far south as Evansville, have faced the same problems of not getting their breaks and of not being paid for all the time that they've worked," Brissenden said. "Plaintiffs contend in this case that it's not by accident, it's by design."
    "Plaintiffs state that Wal-Mart maintains a labor budget for each store, known as the "Preferred Hours Budget," at corporate headquarters, located in Bentonville, Ark. Each store manager is responsible for his or her own budget, which must in turn be approved by the district manager, according to the demands of the Preferred Hours Budget."


Lots of article links at WalMart Workers of Michigan

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:01 PM

And the unions blame the corporations of course.

For your information, dianavan, since you don't seem to know it, lots of "folks" own stock in Wal-Mart, including Associates. Wal-Mart offers 401k plans, as well as stock purchase plans to their employees.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 09:52 AM

To all WM bashers concerned:


If you want to pay thirty to forty percent more for your personal items at some mom and pop shop, then by all means, please do it. Quit telling us how to do our shopping. I really don't blame WM for closing the doors at the sight of union organization. If I were a business owner, which on three separate occassions I was, I'd close my doors also if I was threatened with extortion from some union. There are plenty of people out there that know exactly what they want and don't want. I think that most people know that there are more illegal activities going on inside unions all across the country than there ever has been going on inside Wal-Mart. Don't continue to think that a union is the ultimate answer. It seems in this case to be the reason why lots of people LOST their jobs rather than receive an increase in pay. What about those people who didn't want to join the union? Where are they now? Probably working for minimum wage in the mom and pop store instead of making better than minimum wage and having some type of benefits offered to them. But I guess that is OK with all of you. It seems to give steam to your cause when unions cause people to lose jobs and benefits and add to the roles of people on welfare.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:39 AM

Union Guy,
Many people can't just quit their jobs. It's better to resolve if possible unless the abuse is so widespread that it's hopeless. I took a boss to HR years ago and the process was fair. I did get permission from the boss before going to HR. We were able to continue our working relationship with no more problems. There really are some people out there who'll stop their shenanigans if higher ups demand it. I'm amazed that none of you gave any credence to my telling you that I personally know a W-M associate who used the open door policy and had no problems from having done so. My emails this morning are not about "poor me" but to let you see how I feel about this forum. One more question. Do the Walmart haters on this forum EVER shop at W-M? I hope you don't. I think it's uncanny that many of the people in a Charlotte, NC suburb who worked hard to get signatures to petition against plans for a W-M in their area are big shoppers there today. One of the women in this neighborhood says they all laugh about it now. I believe that if you believe a company isn't ethical, you should be big enough not to walk in and take advantage of their low prices. With many people it's about ego---not wanting anyone to think they'd stoop to a discount box.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Union Guy
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:06 AM

There is an easy way to fix Wallyworld. Stop shopping there.

Also every body that is being fucked employment wise should quit.

UG

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:05 AM

BTW, I have a lot on my plate, facing a house move, so please forgive me if my sentence construction isn't as clear as it should be--don't have time to proof. Just try to get my message--that's all I ask.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Fairminded Sally
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 07:57 AM

Ron,
Since, as you read in my previous comments, for the most part I defend Walmart. I'm amazed, however, that I've shared with you guys the things I do and don't like about Walmart and other big discount boxes. I want to know more about the Maryland thing but I have to study elsewhere. Like you guys don't put much stock in my "anecdotes" I don't feel I can trust anyone in this forum to keep it fair. The passion seems to be either love or hate. There's not an ounce of ambivalence. I resent immensely that none of you found the DM's comments to have any credibility whatsoever. Not one of you said, "that made me feel better, but I hope he wasn't just sounding forth to make Walmart look good." And why aren't you all down on other companies who aren't unionized? And why don't you talk about the negative aspects of union involvement. The original intent was good, but there are plenty of sages throughout the years who've talked about the damage unions can do. Bib Mick, you talk about all the times Walmart hasn't followed the law.....could you please give me a long list. In the recent illegal alien thing (floor cleaning), these were subcontractors who were contracted to clean floors. Are they not responsible for knowing their employees' backgrounds. There was a regional VP in some Walmart division who allegedly accepted a kickback from a cleaning crew but that I believe was a separate, isolated incident. He was fired and deserved to be fired. But I resented that Walmart had to "settle" out of court and pay the U.S. 11 mil for the carelessness of the subcontractors. Does W-M have to police ever sub that they hire? Why is all the responsibility on W-M....because they have the bucks to pay Uncle? I thought that was grossly unfair. I reiterate that I feel that I'm the only one in this forum who'll take a look at every fact and say something like "Yea Walmart was very wrong there," or "Yes, it's wonderful what Wlamart gives back to the community." Kat, I think you were the one who commented that you mourn the loss of the small downtowns of yesteryear when retailers felt a sense of community (I'm obviously paraphrasing here). I think Walmart does a great job to give back. And all the passionate Walmart haters don't trust W-M's motives. I'm amazed that one of you mentioned that for every 10 associates who are happy, he knows 10 cases of abuse. And you guys won't accept MY anecdotes? I did ask the DM about his background....he grew up in a blue collar neighborhood with rabidly prejudiced parents. Today he's a different person, valuing his fellowman. He told me that he's proud to say that his mother today is a different woman. The DM dropped out of college after two years, and wishes he had finished but said that for now he doesn't desire going back---might one day after retiring. Although he started with Walmart as an assistant manager (had managed for another retailer, he said that he's proud about 75 percent of his company's store managers started out as lower level associates. I have to do more checking regarding other comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,pinion
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:31 AM

Once again Martin Gibson proves himself to be a complete idiot. Just because the heat has not shown its affect in the Walmart store yet does not mean we are wasting our time in applying the pressure. He then goes on to lose his temper and get censored by mudcat.

The people are free to associate in unions. Any corporation which chooses to violate those rights does so at thier own risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:16 AM

Thats why I would never invest in Wal-Mart. I prefer ethical funds. Since when do "common folk" have enough money to invest? Certainly not the "common folk" who work at Wal-Mart!

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:27 AM

Horse pucky, dianavan. Wal-Mart will show a profit or close the doors. It's not whether or not there is a profit, but rather how much. Shareholders of Wal-Mart stock, which includes a lot of "common folk" are anxious that the profit be as much as possible of course.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 04:31 PM

That right, DougR.

Wal-Mart cannot survive if it has to pay fair wages and benefits.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 02:51 PM

I suppose your local newspapers reported today (Sunday) that Wal-Mart has just closed a store in Canada because the workers voted to unionize. I suppose most of you will view this as a hostile act against labor, right. I think the company figured it could not meet future union demands and still return the type profit it's shareholders expect.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 01:56 PM

No, been busy living RichM, while you are staring at a websaite just waiting for my return.

I am just so impressed that Ron Davies quotes Shania Twain. It just adds so much to his intellectualism. Next thing he will be quoting Brittany Spears.

Wal-Mart rules. Best place to buy and save.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: RichM
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 02:56 PM

Whatsa matter, Martin? 'Cat got yer tongue?

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 11:53 AM

The above 2 messages were for Auggie, not Sally.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 11:43 AM

Also, you have chosen, for some unknown reason, to dodge the question about the Maryland legislature and the "Wal-Mart" bill. Now I wonder why you did that.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 11:40 AM

If you think my arguments are "straw men", talk to Big Mick, who has been dealing with the reality--and that's what it is--for probably decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 08:06 AM

Ron,
Thanks for your input. Music is a big part of my world--classical, rock, and folk in that order. I'm a big CCR fan. Also looking for an old version of an opera (Le Perichole--not sure of spelling) that I can't find and will plea for help from classical music buffs later; however, this might not be a good website for that one. More on Walmart on Monday after an out-of-town overnighter. Auggie had some good points, accurate I'll add. Ninety percent of part-timers at W-M are supplementing their income derived at another job--unless students. I agree with you that some work there knowing they aren't a good fit. I do know a music major in a rural town who hated dealing with disciplinary problems teaching in the public schools, so she's at one of the county's only two places of employment where she can receive benefits -- Walmart! She's very happy there, which surprised me with her background, but I think it's a time in her age when she needed the Walmart family, despite the culture that would get old with--if I had to work there....no offense to anyone. W-M has a great place in our society. More later.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Auggie
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:22 AM

Ron
I like most unions.
I derive a signifigant portion of my income through their members' utilization of deserved and hard-won benefits, but, you gotta get your facts straight if you're going to make a convincing argument.

Here in my corner of rural America, Walli-World pays over $12 for full timers and almost $10 for part-timers. Can you live on $10? Man, I know I'd sure hate to try, but most of the Wal Mart part-timers I know aren't trying. They are high school and college kids,retirees, or wives picking up hours while the kids are in school. They're not trying to live on $10/hr nor just 28 hrs/wk. They are merely supplementing the primary wage earner's income, pension, or stashing cash for college. Don't want to support a family on $12/hr @40hr/wk. either? Then it is incumbent upon you to get an education or acquire job skills that will separate you from those employed in unskilled labor positions. Stocking shelves or scanning at the checkout never was and never will be a lucritive position for its practitioners.

I too, heard the oft-repeated stories of Wal Mart coming to town and driving the competition out of business. But, in the 4 or 5 years they've been out on the fringe of our town (pop. under 10,000) the only downtown businesses to close down were a pet shop, a lunchenette and a tattoo parlor. If anything, the noon time chamber of commerce gossip would indicate an increase in volume at some retailers due to shoppers thinking that as long as they've come far from home to get to WM, they might as well pick up a few other things on the same trip to town at other local stores.

Do I shop there? Not if I can help it. Nor do many of my peers, but you wanna know why? It's because many of us regard Wal Mart as "outsiders". Most of the families in rural America plant roots. Deep roots. And then they remain close to those roots. Not for years. For generations. Profit taking interlopers like Wal Mart are regarded by many "locals" as the 21st Century version of carpet baggers, and much like their 19th century counterparts they seem unavoidable and often unstoppable.

I'm glad there are folks who try to keep this "Day of the Locust" from being at hand, but you gotta do more than create and then defeat "straw man" arguments like you fed poor Sally.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 11:31 PM

Sally--

We cross-posted.

Just a few more things

After Walmart has driven the local businesses out of business, employees of those businesses still have to eat, etc. So many may apply for Walmart jobs. It doesn't mean they feel they are "suited"--just that Walmart may well become the only game in town. It's either that or move--and many can't move.

Walmart "has done a lot to help our economy"--but not for those who are priced out of the job market by Walmart's constant grinding on suppliers to provide the absolute lowest price to them, so they can maintain their profit margins. Those jobs migrate to the cheapest producers--not usually in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 11:12 PM

Sally--

OK, Sally--no more sarcasm with you. You have established that you are a sincere woman, not a (probably male--most are, I suspect) troll. If you're a troll, you're an excellent one--fooled me good. As I'm sure you know, on the Net you never can tell and trolls are everywhere, including on Mudcat.

However, still waiting for any objective evidence from you (as Kat and Mick have pointed out, anecdotal evidence is not adequate.) RE: Walmart CEO's statement in a speech--it's actually quite safe for him, since nobody can contradict him--Walmart does not in fact give out wage rates, since, as the Journal article noted, they vary by location. (I also suspect Walmart just does not want to publicize them, but I have no proof).

I'm not surprised that a Walmart district manager is positive on Walmart (but, as Shania Twain said, "That don't impress me much"). In contrast to lower-level employees, I'm sure he is paid very well--I'd guess about $80,000 to $100,000. Ask him that.

Again, his answer does not reflect reality for lower-level people.

It's somewhat amazing to me that somebody who makes less than $10/ hr., as some do, would be called an "associate". This sounds like a salve to compensate for rock-bottom wages. But you can't eat a gobbledegook title (sorry-- sarcasm creeping back in.)

A great illustration of the welfare aspect is the Maryland bill. Since Medicaid is the program for the indigent, obviously Walmart's health insurance program is not adequate, so Maryland winds up footing the bill for poor Walmart "associates". The legislature wants Walmart to carry its own weight--by either devoting 8% of payroll in the state to health concerns or putting the difference in the Maryland state Medicaid program.

Also, my understanding is that poverty level is about $18,000/ yr. for a family of 4. At $10/ hr, I calculate that a worker would make about $19,200 / yr.--just above poverty level. But, as you point out, $10 /hr. is just an average--some are below. And, if you read the Post article linked by Kat, you find out that some full-time Walmart "associates" are limited to 28 hours per week--they would definitely be below poverty level, hence candidates for welfare----- (I'm sure Canada is not the only place they cut back hours below 40 per week.)



Oh yes, the web site. Mudcat is actually a folk-music oriented site (probably the best in the world), but it's separated into music-related topics and BS. Here, in the BS section (below the line) we discuss anything----and I do mean anything--take a gander at some of the other topics.

You're more than welcome to join us in music or non-music topics here in the "Cathouse"--and it's ferociously addictive. As you can tell, we have quite a cast of characters.

You can get a mind-boggling amount of information on music here--and from all over the world.

Wilkommen, Bienvenue, Welcome!

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 10:57 PM

Some of you could be stand up comedians. Kat I enjoyed the story about your son's employer. What a generous man who truly values his employees. I still like Walmart because,considering it's so large, they have such emphasis on fair treatment of employees. Whoever said that for every happy employee I talk about, he can describe 10 other cases of abuse, I cringe at that. As big as these companies are, there's no doubt there's some of that--it's inevitable but I seriously doubt 10 to 1. For the most part, there are satisfied people at Walmart. I don't think they'd walk in and apply if they didn't think they were suited for that culture.

On the down side, like you Kat, I prefer smaller stores. Who wouldn't prefer Main Street USA with attractive shops and boutiques. But our culture has been slowly changing for years, and so I accept the new environment when I reflect on my childhood when I know damn well that many in my hometown couldn't afford the mom and pop prices as easily as some others. So, despite the changing countryside, I like that more people can have what only a segment of society had in the past. My biggest gripe is aesthetics. I've hated the garish "Walmart blue" buildings that invaded the scene for years and I'm happy to see that more have earth tones these days. However, while traveling I observed one W-M in a mid-Atlantic state that had signage all over the front of the building and I know that the town's planning commission and/or city council did little or nothing to negotiate for an acceptable appearance. I know these companies will work with the towns. I also hate all the vacant buildings across America and that W-M and others will build a store and 10 years later, within a mile or two, will build a supercenter. But the good news is that some cities across the country are now requiring large discounters to have a plan in writing, before they can build, as to what'll be done if their building become vacant. Now for a comment that'll tick off some of you. There's a college prof somewhere in the Midwest who assists cities and towns in their effort to fight W-M, of which I'm sure you're aware. I heard this man on MSNBC reluctantly admit that W-M has done a lot to help our economy. As I mentioned before, I'm sure they'll shift to no. 2 or 3 slot one day, but for now, by keeping prices low, people continue to buy. I'll wait for your attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 07:43 PM

Martin, I accept your retraction on the 'Nam thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:52 PM

Oh my god, robo!

I am so proud of you!

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:50 PM

Walmart is a study in efficiency. It is structured to trim as much as possible from operating costs and deliver products cheaper than their competitors. I think it is a losing proposition to 'blame' them for doing what they do so well. It is rather for the unionists to research THEIR efficiencies, their global capabilities, and re-invent themselves as necessary.

To be competitive with someone, you can try to better yourself, or beat them on the head with a hammer until they perform worse than you do already.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:48 PM

big Mick, I take that back about the Nam thing.



Now why don't you just go and pretend that I don't exist and I will do the same about you.

Try to realize that you don't have any effect on me. I have plenty of friends here and I'm not going away because this place is just too morbidly fascinating.

So realize that Mudcat is going to have to live with both of us here and if you don't like me or my comments, I really don't care for the feeling is quite mutual. However, I believe you look for trouble and I assure you, I will not ignore you and will continue to FOLLOW YOUR LEAD when it comes to insults.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:15 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Well, fat man. I'd rather be little than fat.

Now, if you could only justify all of that killing you did in Nam.

Now, who's laughing?

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 04:49 PM

Ron Daves:I read your laundry list from the Wallstreet Journal of last year comparing Costco with Wal-Mart.

I'd suggest, if you ever need a job, you apply at Costco. I don't think you would be particularly happy at Wal-Mart.

And by the way, did that article also quote bottom line net income figures for both companies? I'll betcha Wal-Mart made out better than Costco. Oops, forgot. Corporations aren't supposed to make money. Right Ron?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 04:20 PM

***hee hee heee**** See what I mean? Really easy. I am enjoying this.

How about a little more, little man? This is fun.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 04:16 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]You don't make me dance, Big Mick.

That itch in your crack is what makes you dance, though. I feel sorry for you that it's so hard to reach.

Big guffaw!

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 03:51 PM

***chuckle*** I love making him dance.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 03:47 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Man you are one sick, obsessed person, big Mickey.

I doubt if you could teach me much except how often you can buy a larger belt. Please take a moment to exhale. I am having plenty of decent conversations with many Catters here and on PMs. some of them might even be about you and your......................problems.

What is your whole life's work, Mick? Oh, don't bother. I'm really not interested. I need to stay awake right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 03:36 PM

The problem with anecdotal evidence, Sally, is that for every story you or Doug can produce of happiness, I can produce 10 of abuse, some with tragic consequences. My point of view is steeped in personal experience as a union organizer and community activist in the towns where these events happened. When you have folks of divergent views, such as Hubby and Doug, and myself then one must look to the evidence. This is why Ron's point of view carries more weight in the discussion, in my view, than yours or Doug's. It has cites and they come from a journal that would be more inclined to support business interests than not. I mean no offence when I say that, but yours and Doug's are based on a "he said, she said" approach.

Or you can listen to people that castigate a whole life's work with comments about "pimps and whores", or one who refers to body parts, when they can't come up with a decent argument.

I will say that I can at least respect Susu's Hubby. His arguments are philosophical, and he makes no pretense otherwise. He and I come from different points of view. He isn't pretending to be something he is not, and comes at it straight. I imagine I would enjoy drinks and lively conversation were I ever to meet him.

The other ignorant person I would have to avoid or I might have to teach him what a fat Irish boy can do, musically and otherwise.

Mick