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BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed

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darkriver 07 Jun 04 - 06:46 PM
M.Ted 07 Jun 04 - 06:07 PM
Blackcatter 07 Jun 04 - 05:33 PM
GUEST,Desdemona 07 Jun 04 - 05:16 PM
DougR 07 Jun 04 - 05:14 PM
Bill D 07 Jun 04 - 05:09 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 07 Jun 04 - 04:46 PM
Peace 07 Jun 04 - 04:15 PM
GUEST, yet another. 07 Jun 04 - 03:46 PM
DougR 07 Jun 04 - 03:19 PM
Once Famous 07 Jun 04 - 02:39 PM
Wolfgang 07 Jun 04 - 02:08 PM
Amos 07 Jun 04 - 01:50 PM
CarolC 07 Jun 04 - 01:17 PM
GUEST 07 Jun 04 - 01:03 PM
GUEST 07 Jun 04 - 01:02 PM
Strollin' Johnny 07 Jun 04 - 12:49 PM
Blackcatter 07 Jun 04 - 12:40 PM
GUEST 07 Jun 04 - 12:39 PM
kendall 07 Jun 04 - 12:37 PM
Amos 07 Jun 04 - 12:32 PM
Blackcatter 07 Jun 04 - 12:24 PM
Don Firth 07 Jun 04 - 12:19 PM
Don Firth 07 Jun 04 - 12:10 PM
M.Ted 07 Jun 04 - 12:05 PM
CarolC 07 Jun 04 - 11:53 AM
Ebbie 07 Jun 04 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,bbc at work 07 Jun 04 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,Larry K 07 Jun 04 - 11:19 AM
GUEST 07 Jun 04 - 09:24 AM
ced2 07 Jun 04 - 09:08 AM
GUEST 07 Jun 04 - 09:00 AM
GUEST 07 Jun 04 - 08:50 AM
Greg F. 07 Jun 04 - 07:46 AM
Bat Goddess 07 Jun 04 - 07:46 AM
kendall 07 Jun 04 - 06:39 AM
kendall 07 Jun 04 - 04:42 AM
Ellenpoly 07 Jun 04 - 04:09 AM
Ebbie 07 Jun 04 - 02:47 AM
GUEST,freda 07 Jun 04 - 12:07 AM
GUEST,freda 06 Jun 04 - 11:58 PM
Bill D 06 Jun 04 - 11:38 PM
Peace 06 Jun 04 - 10:53 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 04 - 10:53 PM
Blackcatter 06 Jun 04 - 10:51 PM
Amergin 06 Jun 04 - 10:48 PM
Peace 06 Jun 04 - 10:40 PM
pdq 06 Jun 04 - 09:48 PM
bbc 06 Jun 04 - 09:37 PM
Amos 06 Jun 04 - 09:26 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: darkriver
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 06:46 PM

Here's a lovely obituary for the man:

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/printer_8675.shtml

Regards,

doug


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 06:07 PM

Hey, Martin-aren't you going to acknowledge your mistake? You are big on name calling, and holding people to account for what they say, but bad on facts--embarassingly bad on facts--


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Blackcatter
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 05:33 PM

I've never said I was a liberal.

Do I wish death on some people - sure to - mass murderers or those that facilitate mass murder deserve it, as far as I'm concerned. Thatcher and the Pope are both guilty of that in roundabout ways.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 05:16 PM

Indeed. The "Great Communicator" was generally acknowledged in diplomatic and political circles to be "a very nice man" but not a particularly bright, insughtful, or competent one when it came to actual policy. I am a dyed in the wool liberal, but am also a human being, and so I'm sorry for the suffering he and his family have undergone due to his illness, but the fact remains that the Reagan '80s ruined our economy and it took a good decade to redress the balance (after which we got GW in a rigged election, thus guaranteeing us at least 4 years of mindless international hostilities and semi-literate rhetoric from the Oval Office; fancy a move to Canada, anyone??).

Wonder how "Mommmy's" doing?

D


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: DougR
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 05:14 PM

I agree, Ron. Reagan did not walk on water.

I also fully agree with your first paragraph Ron. As I have often pointed out, many "liberal thinking" people post messages on this forum that a "true" liberal would never write. Some postings are about as vicious as one could get, and usually due to the fact that there is a difference of opinion. Hypocrocy in spades.

And I would remind the poster who stated that the posters who were so critical of Ronald Reagan had a right to his/her opinion that that adage works both ways. Freedom of speech applies to all viewpoints, not just liberal ones.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 05:09 PM

I am a liberal....I don't 'wish' death on anyone, but I sure DO wish many Americans had enough sense to see that "affable fool" does not equal "great president"...It has been pointed out over & over here what a travesty the man was in almost every important way, but those who simple wanted a congenial conservative in the Oval Office ignore the damage Ronnie did thru his vapid blundering!....and obviously, those folks learned a valuable lesson from Ronnie...it simple ain't necessary to think too much to get by. We even have Rush Limbaugh to reinforce that attitude for them every day!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 04:46 PM

I do agree with Martin that it is rather hypocritical for those of us who proclaim to be "liberals" to wish death on anyone. If we oppose war, oppose the death penalty and agree with the necessity of abortions then it is rather unbecoming to enjoy someones passing.   I will admit I made a flip remark earlier that "only the good die young", but I meant no harm. I apologize if it seemed insensitive.

It should also be noted that there are also stories about Republicans who held parties when FDR passed away.
   
That said, as others have already pointed out, we do have the right to present the opposing view.   If the media were being honest, they would remember that Reagan was not universally loved. Conservatives love to point out a supposed flaw in John Kerry's having contridactory stances, but Reagan was a candidate who campaigned against big government and then went about expanding the military and government during his terms in office.   Commentators note his "touch for the common man" but overlook his handling of unions and how his "booming economy" left a huge debt. His "Star Wars" defense system never worked but yet there are those that credit it with helping to bring down the Soviet Union. "Iran Contragate" plagued his second term, yet the media bascially gave him a pass on his involvement.

There are many ISSUES that people took exception to back when Reagan was in office.   Now that he is gone, the media is painting a picture of a universally loved president.   I will agree that he was one of the most popular presidents of the 20th century, but there was some STRONG disagreement with his policies and style - then and now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 04:15 PM

DougR: Ofetn, when a leader dies, he or she is lauded as the greatest thing since sliced bread. As GUEST, yet another said, they get paid for their platitudes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: GUEST, yet another.
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 03:46 PM

DougR ... those people get paid for their plattitudes, people here are just exercising their constitutional right to have an opinion i.e. just saying what's in their hearts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: DougR
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 03:19 PM

Interesting to see how the comments on Ronald Reagan, as a president, posted here (Save bbc's and a mighty few others)contrast so vividly with those of world leaders as reported in the daily newspapers. Even Gorbachef referred to him as a "great president."

Of course those world leaders did not have the advantage of being born with such infallible insight as did the "lefties" on the Mudcat.

Most commentators I have heard state the Franklin Roosevelt and Ronal Reagan will go down in history as the two greatest presidents in the 20th Century. I am sure they would be disabused of that opinion were they to read the comments posted in this thread by such learned liberal writers.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 02:39 PM

The far left liberal mind is a true embarrassment in this thread.

Total hypocrisy.

Glad people are dead and waiting for others like Thatcher and the Pope to go next makes me so glad I am not one of you and that your base of power is so stunted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 02:08 PM

07 Jun 04 - 01:03 PM, you obviously have not been meant by SJ's post, 07 Jun 04 - 09:24 AM has been meant.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 01:50 PM

I am not welll enough informed to make a judgement on that, Carol. I have always felt the workings of the USSR were much more complicated than any brain could comprehend!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 01:17 PM

I am sorry Gorby's own power base waned so suddenly.

Amos, I think we can thank the Reagan administration and the way it carried out its policies and agendas with regard to the Soviet Union and its government, for the sudden waning of Gorby's power base.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 01:03 PM

Strollin' Johnny -- I am the Guest who just posted between kendall and Blackcatter and I'm sure I didn't ask for that vitriolic infantile outburst. If you knew me you wouldn't be so 'brave' in your threats to meet me in a dark alley. People like you are the reason I don't id myself, you nutter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 01:02 PM

bbc, there is a separate obit thread.

Larry K, I have no doubt that the reason why people here, as in many places right now, are bitching about Reagan IS because of his policies. To those of Americans to whom policies matter more than popularity, it is a no brainer.

If you love your country, you don't destroy it's government welfare system, bust it's unions, impoverish it's working and middle classes, dismantle entire cabinet level agencies like HUD, feed the military industrial complex by approving dangerous projects and defense systems (like Star Wars) that don't work, and waste the taxpayers money.

It doesn't mean you avoid military service because you can make government propaganda films instead. It doesn't mean you participate in witch hunts and destroy the careers and lives of your colleagues whom you dislike, or their politics.

There was not much decent about this man, and frankly, 9 out of 10 of us aren't going to be polite about his indecency and lack of personal integrity just because he died.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 12:49 PM

GUEST - You don't know Folkfan73. I do. If you knew him you would know that your last comments are a sickening disgrace. I hope, one evening, to encounter you in a dark alley, so that I can tear your head off and piss down your neck. Unfortunately you're a cowardly bastard who hasn't even got the balls to identify him/her self, so sadly I'll never have the chance.
Johnny :0(


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Blackcatter
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 12:40 PM

Was/is Reagan a popular president - sure. The same way Britney Spears is a popular singer and Wheel of Fortune is a popular TV show - since when does popular automatically mean good?

A "popular" notion in the U.S. is that New Mexico is actually part of Mexico. Doesn't make it true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 12:39 PM

I didn't like him. Why do some Americans think socialism and democracy are mutually exclusive, and has anyone told the China communism was defeated?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 12:37 PM

bbc, you may be right, but I'd be glad to start another thread apart from this one. Would that be more to your liking?

I'm not going to name names, but someone here is so full of "IT" his eyes must be brown. I am a liberal and I love my country. I served in the armed forces and have a medal to prove it. Furthermore, I'd love to compare my military record with Bush's. It's every bit as illustrious.
Too many of you Bushites are unable to distinguish between loyalty to the USA and loyalty to resident bush. That lying phony coward has gotten us into a hell of a mess and his real reason is VENDETTA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 12:32 PM

What really pisses liberals off about Reagan was his belief in America and how he made people proud to be Americans again.

I am a liberal. I have never been anything other than proud to be an American. It has always been my conviction that America represented the greatest hope for a liberal world (meaning tolerant and fostering freedom). Please don't be stupid enough to think that the word "liberal" has any meaning other than those relating to freedom.



The only things that undermine that pride are the ravages of warmongering, illiteracy, anti-humanism and imperialism demonstrated by Bush fils.

Reagan commited a lot of stupid things but I have always been proud of the way he dealt with Gorby. I am sorry Gorby's own power base waned so suddenly. Reagan was lucky to have him on the stage -- if Russia had been led by a stupider man, Reagan's job would have been a lot tougher.

Go suck a rock.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Blackcatter
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 12:24 PM

Let's not give Edison credit for the light bulb because someone else would have discovered it anyway.

Talk about ignorance. Edison was the head of a team of men and women who developed the first useful lightbulb. By no means did he do it himself and he never gave his team credit on the work they did.

One other thing we tend to forget - while our "current pretender" avoided Vietnam by screwing around, Reagan blew off WWII because he could as a hack actor. And don't say he was a bit old to serve. My dad was the same age as Reagan and served in the Navy from 42-46, even though he had really poor eyesight and a 6 year old daughter who's mother had died 2 years before or Rheumatic Fever.

Once again Reagan was a piece of crap early on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 12:19 PM

Let me clarify: polls of this kind usually involve asking a sample of about 3,000 and then extrapolating. It's not at all unusual or difficult to a) be horribly wrong unintentionally; b) deliberately cobble the poll to get a desired result--as many a political pollster knows.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 12:10 PM

"In a recent Time Magazine poll, the American public voted Reagan as the best president in history.   Now who is out of touch?"

Let's put it this way: 5,999,999,999 people say that the world is flat. One person says it's a globe. Does that mean that the one person is "out of touch"?

The next question should have been "Popular with whom?" Truth is not determined by consensus.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 12:05 PM

Guest, you failed to point out that Martin"Wrong as Usual" Gibson, was, once again, wrong, as usual.
Reagan's first election was by 50.7% of the vote, certainly a victory, but not a landslide by anyone's definition.

Even his big win, in 1984(!) by 58%, was beat by both Lyndon Johnson, who got more than 60% in 1964, and Nixon, who got more than 60% in 1972--What does that say to you?

For the record, the biggest landslide by a President was James Monroe, who won in both 1816 and 1820 with 99% of the votes--

And, for what it's worth, I disagree with Kendall, I thought he was quite a good actor--


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 11:53 AM

The assertion by Carol C. that defeating communism was a mistake because it lead to a lousy economy in Russia.    My guess is that people in Poland and Eastern Europe would not agree with Carol C. as they preferred communist rule and the murder of millions and millions of people.   I have to admit, I never thought of that angle before.

You're misquoting me, Larry K. Or at least, you're trying to insert a different meaning into what I said, than the one I intended.

I am not saying that the people of the former Soviet Union prefer/preferred communist rule, and I most certainly am not saying they preferred the murder of millions and millions of people. You are the only one who is saying that.

Toward the END of the Socialist regime, it was already pretty obvious that democracy was coming and socialism was on its way out in the Soviet Union. Gorbachev knew that in order for the country to have any stability and any viability as a democracy, the transition needed to happen slowly. And this has proved to be true. There is no real democracy in what is now the former Soviet Union. There is only a particularly vicious form of criminally organized kleptocracy, and this is precisely because of the way in which the transition from the Socialist regime to the present system was implemented. The reason given by the US for wanting to see the end of the Soviet Union was humanitarian concern for the people of the region, and for stability and safety from the Soviet Union's nuclear arsenal.

But the people of the former Soviet Union are suffering every bit as much under the present system as they were under the system as it was during Gorbachev's time in power, if not more so, and there is no stability with regard to nuclear weapons. The breakup of the Soviet Union and the lack of jobs and the lack of access to the basic necessities of life has caused a big problem for people who want to keep nuclear technology and nuclear material out of the hands of terrorists, because desperate people are willing to sell these things to the highest bidders.

It would have been much smarter to have let Gorbachev make the needed changes gradually so that the Soviet Union could have become a real democracy instead of the festering pit of organized crime that it has become.

Or maybe people like Larry K just don't think very highly of Democracy in general, and prefer systems in which the most corrupt and ruthless people, who don't give a shit about humanitarian concerns, get to run the show.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 11:49 AM

Guest/Larry K, I think you are correct in saying that 9 out of 10 comments on Reagan by 'liberals' are negative. On the other hand, out of 6 or so 'conservatives' on the Mudcat, 100 % extoll Reagan's virtues. So just who is being predictable?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: GUEST,bbc at work
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 11:26 AM

Kendall,

You seem to have missed my point. I don't think this thread was intended as a forum for bashing & I won't participate in it, to attack or to defend. IMHO, life's too short for that level of negativism.

bbc


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 11:19 AM

Before reading this thread, I predicted that 9 out of 10 comments would be negative to Reagan.    How sadly predictable.   Yet the American people seem to know better.   In a recent Time Magazine poll, the american public voted Reagan as the best president in history.   Now who is out of touch?

I generally laugh when people try to explain that the fall of communism would have happened anyway and that Reagan had nothing to do it.    Let's not give Edison credit for the light bulb because someone else would have discovered it anyway.   However, I did read a new one today which still amazes me.   The assertion by Carol C. that defeating communism was a mistake because it lead to a lousy economy in Russia.    My guess is that people in Poland and Eastern Europe would not agree with Carol C. as they preferred communist rule and the murder of millions and millions of people.   I have to admit, I never thought of that angle before.

But that is not what pisses liberals off about Reagan.   It really wasn't his politics, or his charm, or his budget deficit, or even Iran Contra.   What really pisses liberals off about Reagan was his belief in America and how he made people proud to be Americans again.   That is something that liberals will never forgive him for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 09:24 AM

folkfan73, please tell us you are trolling and taking the piss, he helped that facist we had Margaret Thatcher to get many people killed and maimed. Fine individuals indeed excellent examples to our children and our childrens children, get real or up your medication...


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: ced2
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 09:08 AM

Sadly missed? Indeed it was sad that any assassin's bullet missed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 09:00 AM

Here is a link to an interesting article about voter turnout and abstention from Noam Chomsky, written post-Y2K election:

http://zena.secureforum.com/Znet/zmag/feb01chomsky.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 08:50 AM

"What I keep thinking about is that the two elections that he won were I believe the largest landslide wins in anyone's favor.

What does that say to you?"

That the Nixon Republican's "Southern strategy" had taken hold, and alienated enough voters in other parts of the country to make them not vote. While it is true that when he ran for president, there was a bump in the number of voters over non-presidential election years, it is widely accepted that those voters were Democrats who had been abstaining because of disenchantment with the liberalization of the Democratic party.

The numbers can be seen at the Federal Election Commission's website here:

http://www.fec.gov/pages/htmlto5.htm

I'm sure Martin Gibson and the other Reagan lovers will also be disappointed to know that voter turnout for both Reagan elections was lower than the Bush/Clinton election, which had the highest voter turnout since 1972.

So I guess that puts the lie to the whole "Reagan was our most popular president" bullshit, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 07:46 AM

Oh, OK. I see now. He was an affable asshole.

That makes all the crooked, scummy, petty and miserable things he and his administration did OK. Shame Pol Pot didn't know how to tell a joke; things could have been different for him.

There. Got my head right now.

Thanks!

Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 07:46 AM

I'm in complete agreement with Kendall on this. Actually, Kendall was being fairly polite and restrained.

Linn


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 06:39 AM

Furthermore, the price of EVERYTHING doubled during his administration.
Well, not quite everything, garage door openers stayed about the same.
I don't know about you, but my income sure as hell didn't double.
The man was a third rate actor who was able to fool a hell of a lot of people who don't think very deeply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 04:42 AM

How in the name of intelligence can anyone admire this lying phony? So he's dead' so what?
Here I go again. Some time ago I posed this question about Bush, and I now pose it about Raygun. Tell us why we should admire this creep.
He ran for president with a promise to balance the budget, yet in 8 years he never even SUBMITTED a balanced budget. He spent more money than all previous presidents combined. His policies dumped thousands of mental patients out onto the streets, right here in Portland they tore down all of the affordable housing and put all those "hand to mouth" people onto the streets, he halted all funding for AIDS research, when in Germany he visited the graves of SS officers at Bittburg, he lied through his teeth about Iran-Contra, he lied through his teeth about arms for hostages, tried to throw his pet dog, Oliver North, to the wolves, surrounded himself with the likes of Adm. Poindexter and Sec. of the Interior, Watt, went union busting on a grand scale, and those were his GOOD points.
Ok Reagan lovers, talk to me.
bbc, the floor is yours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 04:09 AM

I'm in complete agreement with Joe Offer on this one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 02:47 AM

He came across as a folksy, affable man but he was the divorced and very remote father of estranged children. He was capable of some of the most calculating and coldest hearted policies any president has ever pursued.

I always felt he had trouble keeping reality separate from fantasy. I remember in one press conference he was asked by a reporter something like: Mr. President, in Lebanon (I think) why don't you do such and so? The president looked at him a moment and drawled, Well, you know- we did that in (in a movie he made) and you know what? It didn't work.

There was some gentle laughter but it didn't appear that anyone, including the president, was speaking in fun.

I agree that he could be charming- and it seems that charm is all that many Americans require from our leaders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 12:07 AM

and here's another comment of interest..

Joker with a genius for getting his timing wrong
By David Dale, Sydney Morning Hherald; June 7, 2004

Ronald Reagan was a collector of jokes, with a genius for telling them at the wrong moment. During my term as the Herald's New York correspondent in the mid-1980s my hobby was collecting Reaganisms.
Interviewed on radio talkback, he identified one caller's accent as Italian-American, and proceeded: "How do you tell the Italians at a cockfight? They're the ones who bet on the duck. And how do you tell if the Mafia's involved? The duck wins." The complaints poured in. According to Roger Stone, Mr Reagan's campaign manager at the time: "Italian politicians in our camp were calling to get off the bandwagon. No-one actually resigned, but many of them were mad enough to."

At an economic summit in Venice he proved he was not anti-Italian by warming up the press corps thus: "A gondolier was singing O Sole Mio and God looked down and wondered what would happen if he removed a quarter of his brain. The gondolier sang O Sole, O Sole. Then God removed another quarter of his brain, and he sang O So, O So. Then God removed three quarters of his brain, and he started singing When Irish Eyes Are Smiling." That was greeted with coolness, but the president pointed out that his own ancestry was Irish.

He had the CIA compiling dossiers of Russian jokes, and would insert them randomly into speeches, to the despair of his handlers: "A Russian goes to buy a car at the official car lot and is told it will be delivered in 10 years. 'Would that be in the morning or the afternoon?' he asks. 'Ten years from now, what difference does it make?' the salesman asks. 'Well,' says the buyer, 'The plumber's coming in the morning.' "

Asked what he was going to do about the trebling of the budget deficit during his first term, Mr Reagan responded: "Why should I do anything about the deficit? It's big enough to look after itself".

My favourite was testing the microphone before a radio address with this announcement: "This is the president. We have declared Russia illegal. The bombing starts in five minutes."


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 11:58 PM

This is what a former Australian Prime Minister has just written about him.

A genuine pleasure in people; June 7, 2004; Sydney Morning Herald

Bob Hawke, Prime Minister from 1983 to 1991, recalls the president's charm.

In my five visits to the United States during Ronald Reagan's presidency, I can't recall meeting anyone from either side of politics who did not genuinely like him. A lot of them had pretty violent descriptions for his policies, but no one could resist his warmth and affability.

On my first visit, in 1983, my host on Capitol Hill was the Speaker of the House of Representatives, the late Tip O'Neill. When I said I had just come from lunch with the president, Tip said: "There's never been a more conservative man in the White House, but you can't help liking the son of a bitch, can you?"

Reagan was the first foreign head of state to send congratulations when I became prime minister in March 1983 and he issued an immediate invitation for me to visit Washington. Some of those who travelled with me were amazed at what happened during the formal talks. When I raised some questions about current economic conditions in the United States, Reagan started shuffling through a number of cards he was holding. He found the one he was looking for, read out a couple of sentences and then turned to his Treasury Secretary, Donald Regan.
"Donald, this is your quarter, perhaps you'd like to take up Bob's points." The next subject was foreign policy, and he did the same thing with George Shultz.

I found it refreshing to deal with a head of state who did not pretend to be an expert or someone who always wanted to be centre stage. He was also a very good listener. He was not a pretentious man, and he knew how to recognise and rely on able people around him.

In contrast to the situation today, he also knew how to maintain very warm relations with Australia without the need for agreement in every area. I remember on one visit he was very keen for Australia to support the Star Wars program. I told him I was not persuaded by his arguments. He knew I was travelling on to New York and asked if he could send a few of his generals to continue the discussion.

The generals did not persuade me either, but there were no hard feelings when the answer was again no. It did not adversely affect the relationship at all, which demonstrates that you can have a very close relationship with the United States without having to agree with every proposition they make. Reagan never pretended to be a great intellectual, but he knew what the important issues were.

He knew when he came to office that the Soviet Union presented a very significant threat and he let them know they had a real opponent on their hands. We owe him a great deal for his role in ending the Cold War. I will remember his great warmth and his ease with everyone he met. He took genuine pleasure in people. He was always keen to get formal meetings over, so that we could go to lunch and swap a few jokes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 11:38 PM

well, I say this for Ronnie....he told us directly and specifically, as Gov. what he would do if elected. As Gov. of California and in weekly radio broadcasts for 2-3 years, he swore he'd stop this, enforce that..etc...all those things noted above. He also oversaw the dismantling of programs in places like EPA that had taken years to build up, and which have never recovered. EPA's auspicious beginnings were ground under Reagan's heel. I suppose there is something to be said for THAT sort of 'honesty'.

As noted, he did accomplish a bit of disarmament by schmoozing Gorbachev, but it might well have gone better with someone else. I simply could NOT swallow all the "I forgot....I was out of the loop" etc. about Iran-Contra.

...??does anyone else remember him replying to a question about being elected so late in life and subject to the infirmities of aging..." If I feel myself getting senile, I'll be sure & tell you?"?...... he was only 8-9 years late in making the announcement....


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 10:53 PM

True, Amergin. Shouldn't have spoken for others. Let me amend the above post. That just says I'm a bastard, but it doesn't prove he was a great man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 10:53 PM

He made people feel good by telling them what they wanted to hear... whether it was true or not. I guess to some people that makes him a great man.

And as far as that business about taking down that wall is concerned, I think that the Reagan administration made a big mistake with that one. I think that if Gorbachev had been able to make the needed changes gradually, as he wanted to do, the former Soviet Union wouldn't be in the absolutely appalling shape it's in right now, with organized crime running the show and many people in worse shape now than what they experienced under the Socialist regime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Blackcatter
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 10:51 PM

Martin - the reason he won the first of the elections is that he and his cronies conspired to keep the hostages in Iran - that was the undoing of Carter. Could Reagan have won the election without it? Probably, but we'll never know because Regan did something not only illegal but a crime against those hostages and their families.

All you who like him, usually love his "there you tax and spend Democrats go again" but in his 8 years he not only raised taxes he spent far more than those taxes brought in so that we were massively in debt. Of course the Nazi in the office right now is doing the same thing, but real Republicans are so screwed up they don't even know how to fight what they're against.

I'm with Joe above - John Paul II, Thatcher and Reagan are all crap.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Amergin
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 10:48 PM

No it just says that many see him for the scumbag he truly was...


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 10:40 PM

That just says we're a buch of bastards. It does NOT prove he was a great man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 09:48 PM

A great man

walks the earth.

Blood-sucking flies

bite his flesh.


When he dies,

filthy maggots come out.

They eat his flesh.


In tomorrow's light,

he will still be

a great man.


They will still be

maggots,

and blood-sucking flies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: bbc
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 09:37 PM

Number me among those who mourn his passing & respect him as a man & a president. I think this thread was intended as an obit notice. It makes me sad that people feel the need to use it to bash a dead man.

respectfully,

bbc


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Subject: RE: BS: Ronald Reagan - Sadly Missed
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 09:26 PM

Ronald Reagan said one really smart thing in his career, and although he didn't open it, he did approve its inclusion in his speech: "Mister Gorbachev, take down this wall."

I did not think highly of his economics or his term in office. But I prefer to give credit where it is due.

A


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