BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,Amazed
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:52 AM

Why don't you all go and get a fuckin life?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:40 AM

Lay off Joe. He is doing an excellent job in a situation requiring an extremely delicate balance. I suspect none of the critics would like to have his job, which comes close to a classic "damned if you do, damned if you don't" conundrum. What did Lincoln say about pleasing all of the people all of the time

Was it Lincoln who also said: "if you can't stand the heat – get out of the kitchen"? Perhaps not.....

However, it was Jeri that said: Keep in mind that perhaps the LAST person you want deleting stuff is somebody who says "Ooh, let me do it...I WANNA do it!"

For it is not a job. Joe is both a long-term contributor and well-intentioned volunteer, and it should be remembered no one is forcing him to place himself in the firing line and there is no shortage of those willing to replace him, should he ever decide to step down.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:38 AM

Well written and stated Ron. As to your last statement, anonymous posting and the like can be frustrating and perhaps you are right. Consider too that perhaps you are not. The real situation at the 'Cat really has little to do with it in most cases because the overwhelming majority of those using screen names are known to most others quite well. In my case you would easily find here at Mudcat all the details of my life from the mundane to the ridiculous.....and I do mean all!

When I joined back in '98, the place was a mix of real and screen names and I used the latter for no particular reason. I would have signed in otherwise had it been an issue. So many things happened both to me and at the 'Cat within the first year I was around that Spaw was as real to most members as my real name. Now, every member I talk to in person or on the phone calls me Spaw. At this point I'd be better off to change my real name to Spaw than the other way around.

The anonymous types that are abusive or rude or just here to troll and flame are easily recognized and easy to ignore. If this group wasn't so damn verbal, it would be simple to rid the place of them.....but we just can't shut up and do it!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:21 AM

Wesley S came up with the following [posted in the latest 'hug and prayer complaint thread]- it says more in a few lines than I can ever manage, in my long-winded way.

Grant our members and guests the serenity to accept the things they cannot change - the courage to change the things they can - and the wisdom to realise that this is a forum open to the public and that they have no control over the posts and ideas of others.

Kevin said:

My feeling about censorship and moderating on the Mudcat is that it's probably about right at present. That's based on the fact that, so far as I can remember, I've only once come up against a situation where I've noticed that a thread has been removed when I felt it shouldn't have been, and I don't think that's a bad record.

But I'd be uncomfortable about having significantly more tidying up, especially if were just about language as such.

Not too sure if I can see that anyone, who matters, is too worried about how uncomfortable you, I or anyone else feels on the forum.

But because you may not have noticed or not often come up against a situation where someone you know has been raped - it does not mean that the single victim does not deserve your concern, that rape generally is not a terrible crime or that the police generally have a good record of preventing rape, does it?.

But whatever you or I may come up against or feel - it is the victim's experience that matters. I think you would agree that even one rape is one rape too many - although I somehow rather doubt that you will use words that will make this agreement very clear?

As for the current level of censorship and moderation being about right. Is the level of this the issue? Indeed, how would you or I measure this level - if it were? If you have never had censorship imposed upon your contribution, you may consider that the level is just about perfect - if censorship has been imposed upon your contributions, you could be forgiven perhaps, if you thought it to be excessive, both in manner and in frequency?

The one instance you refer to where you thought a (entire) thread was wrongly removed (along with all the invited contributions of many posters) is enough to cause concern and indicate that this may be just the sign of what may be a much bigger problem? Indeed when I first came across such an event - I did not make the assumption that it was a one-off. I made a point of finding out if it was or not and established that it was not an isolated occurence at all.

Even if the one instance you noticed and referred to was just one poster - is not this victim and their feelings enough concern? When it is a entire thread, is it not even worse?

Being granted serenity is one thing - complacently ignoring the full implications of what you consider 'shouldn't happen' - is just choosing to live in a 'cloud-couckoo land'. I feel that given your concern on so many issues that you would not tolerate this in the real world - without a concerted attempt to 'get to the bottom of it' or to change it. However, I am often wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:19 AM

"Self-righteous twit" reporting for duty, sir:

I also think a lot of rugby songs are great, sing "God damn them all" in Barrett's as loudly as anybody, and can use bad language myself if I'm in the crosswalk and some idiot in a car doesn't stop. I could also probably sing "On the Good Ship Venus" if I'd re-learn the words, and I think it's a shame how sea chanteys have been watered down in performance. I also quit a group partly because the director tended to do completely bowdlerized versions of sea songs. That doesn't mean I think it's just fine how vulgar speech permeates everyday life. It doesn't have to.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:44 AM

One more thing--

It would be a fascinating exercise to see what language everybody used if everybody had to actually use his or her real name each time they posted, as I do. I bet that, as Bob Wills said, there'd be "some changes made".

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:38 AM

Lay off Joe. He is doing an excellent job in a situation requiring an extremely delicate balance. I suspect none of the critics would like to have his job, which comes close to a classic "damned if you do, damned if you don't" conundrum. What did Lincoln say about pleasing all of the people all of the time?

Little Hawk--

Wrong. Some people (of both sexes) realize that vulgarisms are stupid, pointless, and show, as I said before, a poverty of vocabulary and intellect. Based on postings I've seen here, I am not the only one who doesn't like them. I've certainly seen others who never use them. The English language may be the richest in the world--why not use it?
The Nader thread was almost 100 long and I realized that only one woman had posted (I believe). It was a reasonable guess on my part that perhaps part of the cause was that it was descending into locker room talk, as I had seen others do. Perhaps it was a wrong guess.





Martin--


As you should be able to tell, neither the "full of" nor the "rose petals" comments really contribute that much to any discussion. How about actually addressing issues (like Nader etc.) rather than attacking anybody personally? It seems a reasonable request. Foul language and personal attacks are the last refuge of somebody who has no arguments that make sense. If the shoe fits.....


To all--

I've made my views quite clear. I am totally against all censorship on Mudcat, except self-censorship. I am free to appeal for restraint. You are obviously free to ignore me. I read and hear foul language all the time. If there is more to the argument than that I continue reading. If not I stop. It's a waste of my time and everybody else's. There is virtually no foul language in the music threads. There doesn't really have to be here either. But I will not leave the non-music threads, regardless of language or personal attacks, since I believe there are important non-musical issues to be discussed. For the record, I think George Carlin's 7 Dirty Word riff was hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:14 AM

My house has a large white wall. I invite people to write some of their thoughts on this wall and to communicate with each other there. However, it also proves irresistible to vandals with spray paint tins – who write all over it with large letters, in every colour imaginable.

Now some people I know, volunteer to clean it all off. To ensure that it does not happen again, in an equally colourful manner with their own spray cans, they write in large letters pointing out that - spraying colourful paint all over this wall is not something that is to be encouraged.

These volunteers even invite (at least permit, by not cleaning off their contributions) a few trusted friends to also say the same things with their spray cans and in an equally colourful way.

Do you know what? Before long, the wall is again covered all over with colourful spray painted writing!!!!

Would you believe it, eh?

Now this has been going on for many years and there have been lots of suggestions for a different approach and for a different example to be set. But these volunteers just get out their trusted spray cans and write all over the wall to tell them, in the usual colourful way - that the wall has been entrusted to them by the owner and that they and their supporters think that 97% agree with the tried and trusted method.

In fact a number of those who I invited to contribute to my wall find that their contributions are being cleaned off, along with the spray paint or being covered over by it. And they don't feel that there is room for both them and all the spray-painting. Some of them go off and try to a wall that suits them better.

Many however do choose to remain and to watch as the wall continues to be covered with large letters in colourful spray paint and still write on the wall to suggest sensible alternatives. And that it is now possibly time to accept that although these volunteers may be having a great time with their spray cans– it may be time to set a new example.

Perhaps I should give it a try?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:39 AM

i agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:31 AM

Ya' know Shambles, the real issue on all of these threads that seem to be running now is once again the same one that was here 5 or 6 years ago and it is one of control. I've been through these sillyass wars umpteen times now and in the final analysis it still gets back to Max.

Poor Max. The young man has a valuable and fun website which all of us are only too happy to tell him how to run. When one of these things gets too bad and too over the top, he ends up stepping in and explaining what he'd like to see happen. Things then calm down til the next round. In all this time I have yet to see him take a stand to employ any more censorship than is absolutely the barest minimum. And he has chosen Joe and Jeff (who don't always agree) to keep it at a level he can live with. It's his choice. And through almost all of it Roger you have stated you too want no censorship. Gee, that sounds okay with Max to me.......he just also seems to know that some moderation is needed in the real world.

But then you do fight the need for the occasional clean-up and combining of threads as well as as the abusive ones since it strikes you as a slippery slope and you don't like the fact that Joe does it or Jeff does it and you don't. You refer once again to "Joe's own insults" and to be accurate, I must tell you that I have never seen one from him that amounts to a hill of beans or can actually be classed as an insult at all. And I know you will agree that I am the resident expert on insults so take my word for it, he hasn't broken the surface of the insult pond. And as to personal attacks............ah the hell with it. Typing this is a waste of time.

Joe and I have had plenty of fights and disagreements over the years but the man has a great heart and puts forth his best effort. If Max has a problem with Joe, he addresses Joe......not me, not you....Joe. You have been on this "chase" for several years and I credit you with high intelligence so I am amazed that you cannot seem to stop this harangue in the face of all evidence that it does no good for you or Mudcat to continue. If you are searching for this "utopian site" that you seem to be, this ain't it. It's damn good, but it will never satisfy you. Whatever your dream is, please go and create it. Don't leave here, you're still a member and that didn't work before for you. No, please stay, but can the diatribes. Then go out as well and set up a site that will encompass all you believe this place should and doesn't. You are free to do that and I would be very interested in the result.

I am around here so damn little anymore that I don't really know the latest group of players but I read the threads and see the same shit and a different day (or year) when it comes to telling Max what is wrong with Mudcat. If he hasn't gotten your message by now, don't you think it's probably a waste of time writing these voluminous postings in the hope that one day Max sees one and says, "By gawd Roger, that's brilliant! I never thought of that before!" Or, "You're right Shambles, Joe is an unmitigated asshole and I've been a fool all these years." ??????????

Feel free to continue writing Volume 97 in the saga, but if I were you, I think I'd invest my time in setting up my own perfection rather than trying to run someone elses.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:17 AM

Nothing like setting a good example.

And this is nothing like setting a good example.

Actually Ron, you seem to be a lot more offended than many women I know who also might suggest your comment is a bit chauvinistic. Sounds like something said by a real asshole portal for the discharge of semi-digested biological waste.

Spaw

Are you still a volunteer then - Pat?

Guest Frank said:

Joe Offer's idea is great.

>"It's still true that the very best way to deal with flames and abuse is to ignore them, to act as if offensive posts were invisible. That 'discipline of silence' doesn't seem to happen around here as often as it should."<

That's precisely what I do and when someone irrationally flames me, I tend to disregard any other post that they may have. I skip right over it as if they weren't there. Eventually I begin to find out who the reasonable people are and respond to them. This includes almost everybody on Mudcat.

Yes it is a great idea - if only this example WAS actually set and encouraged. If the 'reasonable' people were set a better example, and our volunters followed Frank's example and actually did practice what they preach and simply ignored the insults and did not respond in kind - it would finally be a start to ensure that we did not have to keep having this debate.

Joe Offer in this post:

That's what I mean, Martin. You have a lot to say that's valuable. It's the combative stuff that doesn't work here. We need a certain amount of civil behavior for this place to function as a forum of ideas. The name calling and insults distract from all that, and result in chaos instead of discussion.

I think it's safe to say that every insult posted posted on the Internet is multiplied tenfold by the recipient, who then magnifies and returns the insult. Then the whole thing stops being fun.

So far so good - then.......

That's why I deleted Martin's insults before Ron got a chance to respond and continue the cycle. It has nothing to do with obscenity or foul language or any of that prudish stuff - animosity is the problem. I'd really rather not have to waste my time deleting any of this nonsense, but the atmosphere has been downright nasty around here lately.

Sigh.....Are Catspaw's (and Joe's own) insults and personal attacks to be deleted too? I suspect not....Please get a grip.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:51 PM

Nice one Catspaw40. Hope you enjoyed that, Ron Davies.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: catspaw49
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 09:58 PM

Oh yeah......Hey Sins!!! THAT IS the obvious answer and has always been the obvious answer. However, if most of the "portals" who debate this shinola all the time would just give in to that, the thread count would drop by half as they'd have nothing to debate.(:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: catspaw49
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 09:54 PM

Ron Davies said: ".....thereby perhaps hear from some more women on the topic, since they, understandably are not fond of such language...."

Actually Ron, you seem to be a lot more offended than many women I know who also might suggest your comment is a bit chauvinistic. Sounds like something said by a real asshole portal for the discharge of semi-digested biological waste.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 08:53 PM

That WAS just the easy bit...................

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 06:44 PM

"Should every contribution made to the forum stay on the forum?"

No...

that was easy!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:02 PM

No

And I have a novel idea: Why not let Max decide???

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 04:44 PM

Well I am getting movement at the moment. Must go to the Loo :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 04:42 PM

Joe Offer's idea is great.

"It's still true that the very best way to deal with flames and abuse is to ignore them, to act as if offensive posts were invisible. That 'discipline of silence' doesn't seem to happen around here as often as it should."

That's precisely what I do and when someone irrationally flames me, I tend to disregard any other post that they may have. I skip right over it as if they weren't there. Eventually I begin to find out who the reasonable people are and respond to them. This includes almost everybody on Mudcat.

I am grateful for these threads and the discussion by intelligent Mudcatters. There seems to be really not too many flames or craziness by most Mudcatters; that's why I like to stay on board.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 04:40 PM

Peace, love, dove.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 04:16 PM

When people say YES to censorship, what they mean is - as long it is done to anyone but THEM...

But Bill the issue is never going to be one of having a totally uncensored forum - I think that many have accepted long ago that for many reasons this is never going to be the case here. So there is really little point in trying to make me defend things I have not said or a general position that I do not hold. What I am interested in here is how the important principle of freedom of speech can best operate in the face of those who wish to exploit and abuse this freedom and those who wish to erode or ignore it.

The practical problem is first - what is meant by censorship on our forum? From reading all of this thread, although there are many questions that will follow on - I hope you would agree that this boils down to one simple question. Should every contribution made to the forum stay on the forum?

There may be some hope from some of us, that removing 'offending' posts, or even removing entire threads that may contain one or two 'offending' posts, may act in some way to prevent future 'offending'. However, I think the issue really is - if our forum should (forever) play host to these or should they be removed?

My preference is to try and ensure that this difficult question, or at least the following who,why,what and when questions - rarely need to be answered and when they do, perhaps is answered directly by Max).

It encouragingly looks as if others are also coming to recognise that there are perhaps alternative methods to try to encourage. And that changing attitudes by this encouragement may prove to be more effective, than relying only on the single questionably effective measure of the imposition of censorship, that will always remain so counter-productive.

Joe Offer in this thread.

It's still true that the very best way to deal with flames and abuse is to ignore them, to act as if offensive posts were invisible. That "discipline of silence" doesn't seem to happen around here as often as it should.

I would like Mudcat to be a gently, friendly place where people feel comfortable - and I'm deeply embarrassed when it's not. Right now, it sees that too many people around here just want to do battle. I'm sorry, but no amount of editorial work will change the essential spirit of things here. We do what we can to put out fires; but peace has to come from the community, not from some sort of editorial enforcement.

No I go banging on - mainly because our well-meaning volunteers and their loyal supporters give no ground at all and continue to publicly bang right back. If there really is a change of emphasis - from the mantra of routine imposition of editing action and encouraging judgement of the worth of other's postings, to one of ensuring that our volunteers set a different example, on the lines indicated here (and elsewhere by Joe) - I can finally stop banging on (which would be nice).

Is there any such movement?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 03:55 PM

200

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 02:06 PM

Thanks, Joe, for talking straight to "Martin", without the invective, without the hyperbole, and without the dire polemics. And thanks, "Martin", for being straight and honest in your response--

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 01:22 PM

I'm with jacqui.c in not being worried by "language" as such, which would have to be pretty extreme before I'd even notice, but rather by attitude, by the personal attacks and hostility on people whose only offence is to disagree with the attacker - and sometimes not even that, it seems to happen more or less at random. To adjust the old song "If you're not with the one you hate, then hate the one you're with".

But once you've identified someone who habitually goes in for that kind of thing, it's easy enough to ignore their posts without even looking at them. No need to reward them with attention, or make a big deal about censorship.

.........................................

My feeling about censorship and moderating on the Mudcat is that it's probably about right at present. That's based on the fact that, so far as I can remember, I've only once come up against a situation where I've noticed that a thread has been removed when I felt it shouldn't have been, and I don't think that's a bad record.

But I'd be uncomfortable about having significantly more tidying up, especially if were just about language as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 01:19 PM

Shambles: re: "Are we not all posting as equals?"

Did you ever hear the phrase "1st among equals"?

The owner has decreed that this WILL be a semi-moderated forum...in order to have such, someone has to do the moderating. Joe & Jeff have been designated to oversee this process. They have some help doing part of the work, but ONLY they have the final decision about what is deleted. 97% of everyone is happy with that setup and trusts them.

I think I see a hidden agenda behind those who argue for NO censorship ot editing. They would rather see any amount of obscenity, stalking, personal attacks, puerile nonsense and verbal harassment allowed than see ONE of their own posts deleted. I can't think of any country or society in the world which allows unlimited freedom of speech and press. Some overdo it for political or religious gain, but even the most liberal have limits...mostly related to preserving the peace and protecting individual rights. (Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose. You can play the tuba, but not on my porch....or at 3AM. You can print/say what you wish if YOU own the site.(well, and IF you do not advocate overthrow of the govt. by force, etc.)*smile*

You want to see what it really comes down to? Read this blog on free ice cream, and then contemplate what we have here at Mudcat!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Josh
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:27 PM

No

Free speech is our democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:18 PM

195 (nicely)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:15 PM

so, in other words, you cannot tell someone that they are full of shit if you do not agree with them, but you can tell them that they suck rose petals, right?

Or, not that Ron Davies is one of the most dangerous on this forum.

How about, Ron Davies comments and attitudes are very hard for someone who is very down to earth to relate to.

Insulting? Whack me with a feather!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Teresa
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:50 AM

I agree, Jeri. Feeding trolls is a very dangerous thing, because they might figure out that they can eat you, too. :> I try to answer questions at face value, or simply ignore the insults.
T

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:42 AM

They don't even 'express their differences', McGrath. I don't think they're capable of it. I don't think they understand it, or why other people argue about topics, or see them as relatively clueless when they can't. It's not something they ever learned how to do, and likely will learn. Not as long as they think the shock value scores points. Listen, the shock value, should be (one would think) nonexistant by now. Then again, I'm usually more easily bored than a lot of people. It's the attention span thing.

I'd like to have the right to use vulgar language. I save it for when I'm really pissed off, just so people can tell I'm really pissed off.

I try to tune out 'noise' when I'm talking to other people. Focusing on it, whether it's someone using profanity or 'trigger' words, mis-spelling things, using bad grammar or sentence syntax, distracts from the conversation. You start off in that direction, and people always follow. If people continuously respond to rudeness and profanity instead of discussing the topic of a thread, why even bother having topics? Every thread is a flame war simply waiting for the 'you're a poopie-head' trigger to herd people back onto the well-worn path.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 07:35 AM

I just wonder why these posters have so much difficulty in joining in a civilised debate!

I don't think it's so much that they find it difficult, I think that they just don't want to. I suspect that there are people for whom the idea that people who disagree with each other should express their differences without making personal attacks is seen as an offensive idea - hypocritical, dishonest, lacking in spontaneity, that kind of thing.

If you think that way I suppose it could give rise to a wish to break things up, and a feeling that that is a righteous thing to do. In a way it's a kind of iconoclasm. The very term "civilised debate" could be like a red rag to a bull. In a china shop.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: jacqui.c
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 06:52 AM

I don't like to see gratuitous rudeness and aggressiveness both of which have been evident in the last few months. I find it difficult to see why, if one person doesn't agree with another's view, there should be such animosity.

I'm no prude - I've done bar work in London pubs and do not get easily offended by ripe language. What does offend me is the unwarranted personal attack that has resulted from my putting my own point of view on a thread. As a very good friend of mine has said - there are no wrong opinions - and I resent anyone else using bullying tactics of any kind when they don't agree with me. This puts me off of contributing to threads, particularly when I can see that certain names are regularly coming up on that thread.

I would hate to see any form of censorship and I do my best to overlook any personal attacks on me, but it does get difficult to stay quiet sometimes.

I just wonder why these posters have so much difficulty in joining in a civilised debate!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 06:19 AM

But does anybody listen to me????
-Joe Offer-

You seem to think that they should but why should anyone listen to your views any more than they listen those of mine or of any other poster? Are we not all posting as equals?

No, they may not listen to you or accept your views and judgement and there is a good reason for this. However, many do (sadly) follow the example that you set. If you post to judge the worth of others, respond in the same kind of language to the 'vandals' and feel you have the right to make personal attacks (often in return for those you feel are made against you)- other posters will follow the example you set......

If this is an example of 'don't do as I do - but do as I say' - this is hardly the most positive example to set for others to follow - is it? In fact it is a red rag to many bulls.

You seem to feel that you and your volunteers are entitled to additional rights but if so, the trade-off for this is additional responsibility. Joe if you and your volunteers, set a different, more positive and consistent example, folk may follow that also.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:01 AM

Certainly, a request to avoid vulgarisms is reasonable, Ron. So is my request that we avoid mortal combat.

But does anybody listen to me????

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 04:14 AM

Joe--

Hoping to avoid a locker room atmosphere ( since I had seen several threads deteriorate into this) and thereby perhaps hear from some more women on the topic, since they, understandably are not fond of such language), I did ask all participants on the thread I started (To Nader Supporters), to voluntarily forswear vulgar language so we could have a relatively intellectual debate on the issue. All complied except "Martin". Obviously having no power over him but the possibility of shaming him into this reasonable request, I ridiculed him (not difficult).

Was my request to avoid vulgarisms not reasonable?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 11:37 PM

Ahhh....makes me feel good....like a good scratch...on an out-of-the-way-spot....on one's back.

Keep It Up folkies....the itch continues.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

all other of "my boards" have learned...this continues to be fun, fun, fun until the evening is done.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:49 PM

That's what I mean, Martin. You have a lot to say that's valuable. It's the combative stuff that doesn't work here. We need a certain amount of civil behavior for this place to function as a forum of ideas. The name calling and insults distract from all that, and result in chaos instead of discussion.

I think it's safe to say that every insult posted posted on the Internet is multiplied tenfold by the recipient, who then magnifies and returns the insult. Then the whole thing stops being fun.

That's why I deleted Martin's insults before Ron got a chance to respond and continue the cycle. It has nothing to do with obscenity or foul language or any of that prudish stuff - animosity is the problem. I'd really rather not have to waste my time deleting any of this nonsense, but the atmosphere has been downright nasty around here lately.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Teresa
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:28 PM

Every other forum I frequent requires membership and has moderators. There is much less abuse on these fora.

Yes to requiring membership for guests. (Provided that all membership requires is a username and password.) No to everything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:24 PM

Oh, come on,
people--we can all take it--I sure can.

I treat "Martin Gibson"s gems with all the respect they deserve, and no more.


Between Georgiansilver 30 Aug 04 1:35 and Villan 30 Aug 04 3:10 there were several posts directed at me by "Martin Gibson". They have now been deleted but I can tell where they were, because of what Villan said.

I was all ready to respond, and even though the posts are now missing, including one which called me "one of the most dangerous people on the network", due to alleged political correctness (truly absurd, since I actually was calling for no censorship, as anyone with a brain and an eye can see from my posts below).

At any rate, I'm disappointed "Martin"s posts have disappeared, since he was making himself even more of a laughingstock than usual, and he sets a high standard in that regard.


So without any further ado, here's my answer to the "one of the most dangerous" post, since deleted:


I'm touched and honored that "Martin" has named me "one of the most dangerous people" on the forum. Gosh, I don't know what to say. I'd like to thank my parents, my teachers, everyone who helped me along the way, and not least, "Martin Gibson" (THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE), who believed in me when no one else did (SNURF, BLUBBER) for making this day possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:16 PM

That your third point of view matches exactly the "No Censorship!!! Goddammit!" school of thought is merely one of semantics?

Words are all we have. Yes I may not like censorship but the reason and words I gave for this were not the ones you stated. I value the scary concept of the freedom for others to be able to say what they wish and the freedom for me to agree, disagree or to ignore it

Right.   If a group of people really wish to have a moderated discussion, am I correct in thinking that you would deny them any means to do so?   No matter how many, and for what reason?   You would deny them such a forum.

Why on earth would you deduce from what I have said, that I would want to deny anybody this? If others choose or prefer to post to such a forum - what right would I have to deny them the freedom to do this? As long as I or others clearly knew this to be the case in advance - we have the freedom to join or not to join this forum.

Because it is wrong for people to deny others the right of expression? And any code of conduct that allows "offensive" material to be removed, is such a denial.

Wrong it may be but it less a matter of judgement and principle than one of practical reality. Who judges this and what good does this reactive measure do but to bring attention to the very material that has already done its 'damage'?

So, in this brave new world, no group shall agree a code of conduct between themselves, for it could be politically uncorrect on any stranger who barges in on them.   (Am I really getting this right?)

No far from it. It is just such a code of conduct that the vast majority of posters here do try to follow and an example that any stranger can easily follow. Sadly the less positive example of judgement of the worth of each other's postings and requesting editing action based on that judgement being imposed, is currently being set.

And if you arrive unannounced and unwanted, and you wish to make a recruiting pitch for pedeophiles, I not only have to let you have your say, I must leave your diatribe intact for evermore in case someone else wishes to read it? You ask of me, sir, more than you will grant unto me.

This is a music forum which has a place that in theory practically anything can be placed there. Why anyone would wish to make recruiting pitch for pedeophiles here is unclear and I for one would not wish to see or encourage such things to be posted here. If it were, I am sure such a thread would have many posts that would make it perfectly clear what most people thought.

But should it happen - as I have said, the damage has largely been done. Do you then leave it and other equally offensive material in place? Probably not but where are those arguing for this material to be given a permanent home here, when there are so many online places for it? Some could argue that there is a right to post such stuff - it would not seem right to me, to post it here. When it is clear that you are talking only of damage limitation by reactive editing action - are the risks of censorship really worth all the resulting problems?

I won't post such stuff and I would not open a thread which made it clear what it contained and if I came across it, I would quickly move on. I suspect that most folk here would do the same, if it were to be left in place. However, without all the fuss and bringing shocked attention to something posted here, that we would simply ignore elsewhere online, it would fall off the bottom of the page and soon be forgotten. Perhaps that is the best way to deal with such things here?

But this remains a moderated forum. I am just trying to ensure that we do not get even more and the baby does not get thrown out with the current bathwater. My point really is that imposed editing is not currently limited to just these out of place contributions that not many would argue to keep. Under the cover of this - editing action is routinely imposed upon postings that are not these obvious candidates for reactive deletion. For example, entire threads are deleted because our volunteers cannot be bothered to make a distinction between the 'offensive' posts and the rest. Censorship does over time tend to lead the censor to generally devalue all contributions.

Censorship is a difficult and delicate matter. All I expect is that enough care is taken here to ensure that nothing that should not be deleted is lost. If it were up to me and it came to a stark choice between ensuring this at the expense of leaving in place the sort of offensive material you refer to - I would choose no censorship at all but would make it clear to all contributors in advance that this was the case.

A lot of the trouble here comes from the fact that many have been posting for many years under the impression that there is no censorship and this is an un-moderated fourum. Sadly it is neither fish nor foul and this is not really made very clear when folk start to post.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 09:51 PM

Well, Joe. I only think that's what it might look like on the surface.

I believe I have made some intelligent contributions to the forum, have tried to be helpful with my extreme knowledge of American country music and guitars above the border. Below the border, it is truly amazing how many posts have followed mine starting off "I actually agree with Martin Gibson on____________." I do get plenty of PMs telling me they enjoy what I write and how I lay it out without pulling no punches. Many have revelled in some of the things I have said to some people.

I have made some pretty interesting acquaintances here.

I don't really know what you want to do about me, Joe. Is it better to come in like many regulars have obviously done as "guests" to insult my wife and family? Or that it gives them the right as "guests" to give me an anti-semetic slam?

I have posted consistently as Martin Gibson. I have made some mistakes like most everyone here. I have also said some things that I would say again in a New York minute. My politics are not typical middle aged folksinger. So what? Why don't we all just talk about Barney the Dinosaur?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 07:58 PM

But getting a lot of attention...

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 07:46 PM

So, Martin, what do you think we should do about you? You've managed to annoy almost everyone by now, and I think you've become tedious. What is it you want?

You seem to be reasonably intelligent. Wouldn't you get more pleasure out of making an intelligent contribution to the Forum?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: BaldEagle2
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 06:11 PM

Shambles, really.   That your third point of view matches exactly the "No Censorship!!! Goddammit!" school of thought is merely one of semantics?   I expected better of you.   Never mind.

Right.   If a group of people really wish to have a moderated discussion, am I correct in thinking that you would deny them any means to do so?   No matter how many, and for what reason?   You would deny them such a forum.

Because it is wrong for people to deny others the right of expression?    And any code of conduct that allows "offensive" material to be removed, is such a denial.

So, in this brave new world, no group shall agree a code of conduct between themselves, for it could be politically uncorrect on any stranger who barges in on them.   (Am I really getting this right?)

And if you arrive unannounced and unwanted, and you wish to make a recruiting pitch for pedeophiles, I not only have to let you have your say, I must leave your diatribe intact for evermore in case someone else wishes to read it? You ask of me, sir, more than you will grant unto me.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:51 PM

On this site we appear to have two schools of thought: on one side "I disapprove of censorship, therefore you must let me say whatever I like", and on the other "I disapprove of inappropriate language, therefore you must not say anything that I deem to be inappropriate".

No there is another school of thought that is simply saying that they accept that they do not have any control over the postings of others. They do not wish to have this control nor for anyone else to impose it on their behalf. That they have all the editing tools they require.

That whilst accepting they do not have any right over the postings of others, that their wish would be for others to respect their position. And not to respond in kind or in any way to those whose approach to this freedom is to vandalise and whose actions encourage others to believe that they should have judgement and control over the postings of others and who will in the name of this, erode these precious freedoms.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: BaldEagle2
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:48 PM

Martin - Calm down.    You seem to be getting over-heated.   Again.    I promise I will never, ever call you a used tampon. Honest - you have my word on it.

To do so would suggest that you have had initimate knowledge of the female body on at least two occasions (the first when you were born), that a female who had reached puberty had found you useful on a least one occasion, and it would also be a dreadful slur on all the genuine used tampons out there.

And nor "a roll of toilet paper".   Come on, boy, everyone but everyone has some use for a roll of toilet paper.   Really.

(Come to think of it, when did the right to call people names become part of the right to freedom of speech?    Must have snuck in when the rest of us where looking the other way.   Perhaps we can add it to it the pedeophile's right to recruit and junk this one as well.)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:45 PM

It actually works for me, too.

Certain posters read like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. "What if blah, blah, blah blah"

I don't read everything here. Especially posters who are presidents of their own fan club.

this is your brain.

This is your brain on Mudcat wannabee intellectuals. complete mush.

"But what if that mush.............................. blah, blah, blah"

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:36 PM

those who prefer not to hear such nastiness must go away and leave this place to you and your ilk.

Fortunately that isn't so, since there's no sound track here. All that's needed is to spot the name and skip the post.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:25 PM

Your arguement sucks, baldeagle2. Defending the right of a pedophile has nothing at all to do what goes on here. I wouldn't defend it either and I agree with you about that, so there. Now what. Every thing here with all of the "what if" spouting that goes on is purely situational and is very little but opinion. You win this week's top bullshit award for thinking otherwise.

I'm going to be wherever you go, me and my "ilk." for your "ilk" there is no escape, nowhere to hide in your own little Utopia.

You can run but you can't hide from the people who think different from you, the ones who are having fun, and the ones who take all of the "what if" philosophies for what they are. Mostly a crock that has little effect on anything.

Guest Frank. Wrong. Credibility can change on a day to day basis and is purely situational. It plays out here daily and really has nothing to do with anger. Keep flailing.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 04:48 PM

I think a poll here is unecessary because those who indulge in flaming have
forfeited their credibility as reasonable people and as a result their point-of-view is marred by their anger.

They can be easilly passed over in favor of those who want to have a legitimate discussion.

Frank