BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:55 PM

It's the truth, GUEST. Deal with it.

I don't have any experience with chants or crystals, but I've been practicing energetic healing for about 6 years now - both "hands-on" and at a distance. I learned Reiki first, and later HUNA. I much prefer distance work, and I prefer HUNA - it's much easier, more powerful and more effective than Reiki.

HUNA is not as well known in the West as Reiki. Yet. It's time will come, if I have anything to do with it (and I'm making sure I Do!)

So I call upon all ye Catters to come unto me and release thy warts, thy lumps, thy pains, thy twisted thinkings, thy hatreds and ill wills and emotional warpages ... for who do these things serve, pray tell?

You?

Me?

Proctor and Gamble?

Dr. Do-Little?   

(just funnin, mostly anyway - please keep your wartages to yourself!)

;-)   daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:35 PM

if a person WANTS to be sick for any reason, conscious or subconscious (ie if their illness "pays off" for them via disability cheques, keeping them on drugs they enjoy taking or winning them pitying attention from others) -
------------From Mudcat's own Edgar Cayce of warts.

That remark is going to go over real well with lots of folks--NOT. Touches and chants and crystals don't work? Must be the patient wanted to be sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:13 PM

Just anecdotal stuff here - I have a neighbor, a very wonderful warm person, with a labyrinth in her back yard, herbs in her garden, essential oils on her shelf. She recently told my youngest daughter that the reason she (my daughter) needed glasses was because on some level she really didn't want to see. Naturally, my jaw dropped. I asked her, you don't think it has anything to do with the curvature of the lenses of her eyes, or that fact that nearsightedness runs in my family? She didn't. Also, she doesn't "believe in" the germ theory of disease. I tend to think of her beliefs as a strange morass of magical thinking and improbable causal relationships, but it works for her.

But back to the original premise, that there are two sides, and a chasm between them, seems too black and white to me. What about a continuum, or a bell curve? Or a Venn diagram? After all, many of us read our horoscopes while in the doctor's office waiting room, or consult feng shui guides and also make annual donations to Doctors Without Borders.

Yes, in some parts of the US there is a virulent strain of anti-intellectualism, but is there really a Skeptics' Movement?

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:08 PM

....my mother-in-law spent LARGE sums of money on healers and 'natural' medicines and had pyramids built with wires and metals to 'focus' healing thoughts..etc....and she got worse, and worse and died. Congestive heart failure does not seem to respond to "New Age" therapies.

Well I'm sorry to hear about your mother-in-law, Bill, and I don't know anything about pyramids built with wires and metals, but I do know this ...

if a person WANTS to be sick for any reason, conscious or subconscious (ie if their illness "pays off" for them via disability cheques, keeping them on drugs they enjoy taking or winning them pitying attention from others) - or if at a deep subconscious level they feel unworthy or afraid of receiving healing energy, then they will NOT allow the healing changes to take place. We are all free agents - and that means free to choose pain, sickness, even death over the opportunity to heal.

That's why energetic healing is never guaranteed. Dependant as these techniques are on the free will of the recipient, results simply cannot be predicted in the same way that the results of taking a pill or having surgery can be predicted (more or less).

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:05 PM

Sledge, I apologize to you personally. In no way do I intend or wish to demean the work you do, and I am tremendously grateful to you for choosing to make healing your life's work. It is, indeed, a thankless job (much like my own in education) in many respects. I am increasingly alarmed at how few people are willing to go into health care, especially nursing, anymore. I don't presume to speak for you, but I can't help but wonder if one of the reasons why there are so many fewer people willing to go into the field, is because the only practitioners who get any respect in the field of medicine are the doctors and researchers.

In fact, the whole disconnect for me after many years of having too much contact with the medical establishment for a healthy, functional person with little tolerance for those suffering from chronic self-pity (I know a lot of nurses too!), is the disconnect in the US between healing art and medical practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:46 PM

As regards the neurosurgeon I mentioned, I worked with a neurosurgeon who's office was next door to the "experimental" neurosurgeon. I think what he is doing is criminal. He is giving false hope to those who have no chance of being cured, in order to exploit their false hopes "for the good of science".   He and the hospital just don't tell the patients and their families that. Sure, they go through the "informed consenst" dance. But it doesn't change the dynamic of the beliefs of the patients and their loved ones that this might be the magic bullet cure, and the beliefs of the doctor and the medical establishment that exploits those patients in the name of medical science and research.

There is no doubt that these exploited patients and their loved ones are put through much more suffering and pain than they would if the medical establishment cared about and had compassion for them, rather than viewed them as guinea pigs for their research and fodder for their publications. This neurosurgeon is a highly respected (in medical circles) man. Published in all the best journals. An expert in the field. Wealthy beyond most of our wildest imaginations.

He isn't much better than the so-called doctors involved in Nazi medical experiments in the concentration camps, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: sledge
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:44 PM

Guest,

What can I say, but sorry to hear of your personal circustance.

If you want to lecture other don't be surprised if a bit comes your way in return.

I know enough enough about patient care, both the good and bad, I'e seen the patient go home better than they arrived, I've seen them die and been with them and their families, I've also wiped up more than enough vomit, urine and faeces than I care to remember and even then I've tried to ensure that I see every patient as a person not as a job.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:39 PM

With my Postmodern bit as background, I will note that a big reason the New Age is viewed askance is because there are some in this world who don't appreciate the wholesale appropriation of older religions' practices and beliefs. American Indians in particular. The repackaging and recombination of their beliefs and ceremonial activities and sites often offends the traditional practitioners. Many people don't like having their religious sites taken over by bimbos with their crystals. Lynn Andrews is the poster child for this movement.

SRS
The novel Hanta Yo by a clueless white lady came even earlier than Andrew's work, but has been demonstrated to be a hot button with some members of this forum, so this remark shall "appear" invisibly.

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:39 PM

We love to say that we embrace mystery in the New Age culture

That's a pretty presumptuous thing for her to say, in my opinion. How does she know what "we" love to do? She's only one person. On the other hand, I also have a problem with lumping everyone who shares some ways of understanding spirituality that don't fit into any of the more established religions, into one category called "New Age" culture. We're all different. We all experience our spirituality in our own ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:35 PM

OK, one more attempt to present the facts about energetic healing, chronic pain and Reiki as practiced in Canadian hospitals today.

For those who can't be bothered to click on the link and read the article, here's a couple quotes:

The National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine at the US National Institute of Health (NIH), classifies Reiki as a "Biofield Medicine, which involves systems that use subtle energy fields in and around the body for medical purposes"[ii]. Reiki is a 2,500-year-old hands on system of healing which was introduced to Western cultures in the mid 1900s, and more recently has been adopted by a number of hospitals, and other health care settings, given increased attention in those settings to alternative health care strategies. Nurses often practice Reiki as an adjunct to conventional Western Medical treatment. As of 2001[iii], 47% of US state nursing boards recognized providing alternative therapies including Reiki as being within the scope of nursing practice (if the nurse is qualified in that therapy).

Reiki therapy is safe and non-invasive. It is proving useful in hospices, nursing homes, emergency rooms, operating rooms, organ transplantation care units, pediatric, neonatal and OB/GYN units; facilitating relaxation and recovery and decreasing anxiety and pain[iv]. It can be a helpful addition to conventional therapy for HIV/AIDS and cancer patients[v], [vi]...

Reiki programmes exist at a number of other palliative care centres, chronic pain clinics or clinics for condition for which pain management is vital, including: New Hampshire's Center for Integrative Medicine, the Pain Management Center at Elliot Hospital in NH, Ottawa's Sandy Hill Community Health Centre (for treating the HIV/AIDS community), Bruce House AIDS hospice, the AIDS-Committee of Ottawa, The Marvelle Koffler Breast Centre recovery centre for breast cancer patients at Toronto's Mt. Sinai hospital, Portsmouth Regional Hospital's Pain Management centre and Oncology Clinic, the women's health centre at the University of Connecticut's Charlotte Johnson Hollelder Center, and the Yale/New-Haven Hospital.

The results: one double-blind study[viii] found that "Reiki is an effective modality for reducing pain, depression, and anxiety"; Hartford hospital reports that Reiki provides significant pain relief for surgery patients[ix]; Edmonton's Cross Cancer Institute concluded that Reiki showed a highly significant reduction in pain in a pain management study including cancer; in a study of Reiki for treating HIV-related pain and anxiety[x], Pamela Miles found that newly trained Reiki practitioners perceived reductions in pain and anxiety when they performed Reiki on themselves or classmates.

This last item is key: they improved through performing Reiki on themselves. The importance of self-sufficiency, of being able to reduce pain by oneself cannot be overstressed. And they can accomplish it without additional medication...

Summary

Reiki provides a chronic care patient and any family caregiver that they may have with a proven tool to deal with pain. Reiki works with the body, mind, and spirit, all of which have to be taken care of, especially if the pain or condition has been present for a long time. Reiki can be learned by anyone, it is useful immediately upon learning, and can improve the quality of life of many chronic pain sufferers.

Anyone wanting to learn more about or experience the benefits of Reiki or HUNA for themselves is MOST welcome to contact me - just PM me if you'd like my private eMail and/or phone number. I teach both systems privately and in workshops, and I do energetic healing work absolutely free of charge.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:27 PM

Sledge, my mother is currently the beneficiary of that compassionate use of opiates. Her doctor is brilliant, and I have fought tooth and nail to keep him as her doctor despite a manipulative and fucked up hospice and nursing home medical establishment doing all they can to undermine her doctor. My mother has suffered from chronic pain from debilitating physical disabilities for many years, but only recently began receiving compassionate, humane treatment from her care givers. The only thing that has changed is a tumor in her right lung was discovered last fall. In the US medical establishment, a patient is usually only seen as being deserving of compassion if they have an acute illness, or a terminal one. People who suffer with life-long disabilities which are not life threatening, are not treated compassionately or humanely by the US medical system, in my experience.

I also know a lot of disabled people who have suffered from chronic pain. Unfortunately, there is no compassion for them in the medical establishment, especially if the conventional wisdom is that there are behavioral causes to their pain (ie obesity, or failure to exercise or modify the diet) despite the cutting edge research that has been done by the scientific medical research community into the uses of opiates with chronic pain patients.

That research, done over two decades now, has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that chronic pain patients can benefit tremendously from long term high dosages of opiates to relieve their pain and dramatically improve their functionality and quality of life, without the addictive side effects found in people who don't suffer from chronic pain. But still, the US medical establishment is largely opposed to providing pain relief management to any chronic pain patients except those with terminal illness.

Since the Bush administration has been in office, there has been a holy war against doctors and chronic pain patients over the use of oxycontin, or "hillbilly heroin" as it is sometimes called, that was made infamous when Rush Limbaugh was outed for his addiction to it. The end result: doctors will rarely prescribe oxycontin for more than one or two refills to anyone unless they are in the end of life stage of a terminal illness. That has set the cause of chronic pain treatment back by several decades at least.

Which is why so many people who suffer tremendously from chronic pain, or recurring flare-ups of acute pain, are seeking out alternatives to alleviate their suffering. They are seeking it out because the US medical establishment, in a conspiracy with the insurance and pharmaceutical industries, refuse to treat them.

I also live in an area where there is a cluster of brain cancers in children. A friend of our family's daughter was diagnosed with a brain tumor when she was entering puberty, that is so rare it has only been seen in male adolescent descendants of Hiroshima and Nagasaki survivors. All these children in the brain cancer cluster lived in a geographical area where their water supply was found to be contaminated with radiation, and subsequently closed down.

Miraculously or ironically (depending upon one's worldview), the world's only medical expert on those specific, rare types of brain tumors also lives and practices in this same area where the children's brain cancer cluster was found. When our family friend asked the doctor if there were any complimentary therapies he recommended to make the treatments less painful or the patient survival rate more likely, the doctor's response was quite illuminating. He said the research has only shown one factor to be statistically significant enough to note among the children who survived the cancer and went on to live normal lives: the belief of the parents that the child would be cured. He also told the father that massage therapy would provide the best relief for pain, and was especially recommended because opiates in children is a bad combination.

And before you get carried away with your self-righteousness Sledge, I am currently watching my mother suffer a pretty awful death from lung cancer. I don't need you to lecture me. While my mother has chosen not to use complimentary therapies, it doesn't mean I don't know how effective they can be for alleviating pain and human suffering. It isn't just about "the cure" as you keep insinuating Sledge. It is also about having much more compassion and empathy for people who are suffering from pain, and helping alleviate it, rather than condemn them as whiners and junkies the way that the US medical establishment does.

I have known a number of life threatening disease survivors in my life, and a number of people who have succumbed to them. Including AIDS. And heart disease. And diabetes. And COPD. And cancer. I have seen the patients suffering with these diseases treated with compassion and respect (not to mention, pain relieving drugs without judgment and derision).

And I have also seen the physical life-long suffering of people with painful disabilities, contemptuously dismissed and/or demonized by the medical establishment as whiners and junkies, who are just looking to milk the system or get their next narcotic fix. I find that double standard of so-called "compassionate care" appalling.

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:15 PM

A. New Age "medical" therapies often seek validation by inclusion in tax supported plans and institutions. Since these "therapies" are usually unproven or disproven, we see this as a theft of public money and an erosion of what science itself means.

    B. The risk of death or permanent disability from New Age "therapies" is unreasonably high.

    C. New Age authors constantly seek validity by claiming to be "scientific" and using pseudo-scientific jargon. Opposing this is a simple matter of correcting facts.

I'd appreciate if you posted some credible evidence to back up these claims, mack.

Yes, there is great fear ... even hatred and bigotry ... within the Western medical establishment and their pharmaceutical cohorts toward Eastern healing methods. Why? Because they're so simple and they work! Anyone - man, woman or child - can learn them if they have a mind to - and practicing them greatly reduces - in some cases even eliminates - the need to rely on pharmaceuticals, surgery or any other invasive, painful - not to mention expensive - Western medical procedures.

Why is there so much debunking and ridicule in the scientific community about so-called "New-Age" traditional healing methods? I highly suspect it's for the same old timeless and
hypocritical (according to the Hippocratic oath) reason ....

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: mack/misophist
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:14 PM

Daylis'a comment about the medical establishment are out of place. Her basic criticism is about economics, not science.

GUEST's remarks about the brain surgeon are likewise mistaken. The law requires informed consent for such things. When a person is going to die in the near future, anything that could help can be considered. Personally, I think that the cost of such things should be absorbed by the institution, not the patient. But that's economics, again.

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:11 PM

really don't care what New Agers or "skeptics" believe about one another, and I don't think the "skeptics" movement is rooted in science anymore than the New Age movement is--it is rooted in an unhealthy desire to wreak vengeance upon New Age believers, while leaving religious believers alone. It is kind of like one movement stalking another. Creepy in the extreme.

[snip]

But I also am eternally grateful to those New Age thinkers who have stretched the boundaries a bit when it comes to questioning conventional beliefs. I agree, the majority of the New Age movement is as moribund as the Methodist church or molecular biology as an academic discipline. But there are some good thinkers out there. And as an unabashed intellectual, I love to read what a good thinker has to say. Which is why I don't feel threatened by beliefs that are far outside the mainstream.

[snip]

incredible archaeological treasures they built in alignment with the solstices, thousands of years ago, without any of the tools astronomers take for granted today. They were a pretty smart bunch. They had some pretty good engineers working for them too, again, with none of the tools engineers take for granted today. And they moved some mighty big rocks some mighty long distances, and piled them up in a mighty mystical way to make their temples to the stars.

[another post, snip]

You know, it isn't accurate to say that the peoples of the East use Western medicine if they can afford to abandon their culture's traditional medicinal practices. They use both, and see them as complimentary healing modalities, not oppositional modalities the way we have been brainwashed into viewing them in the US. In Europe, where there was once a very strong and powerful tradition of herbal medicine practiced which is the root system to today's pharmaceutical industry, is more open to complimentary healing modalities than the US.

---

Guest, that space in between spirituality and science, between skeptics and the New Age, is occupied at least in part by scholars who hold a Postmodern view of the world. In your various remarks cut and pasted above you're reflecting the role of thinkers who realize that science is priviledged by Western culture, and by modern industrial religions (christianity, judaism, and muslim). They also realize that the "magical" aspects of religion, including cures and miracles and healing rituals, have been continually trumped or debunked by science. Skeptics are important for debunk frauds like the "healers" from the Philippines who palm chicken livers and do phony surgery for gullible believers. There are always going to be people in the world who need to be protected from themselves, because they don't have the tools to figure out a scam when it's put in front of them. But a postmodern view of the world holds that the spiritual beliefs (particularly those that generated in small localities and stayed put) have a great deal to offer humans today.

Postmodernists hold an inclusive (but also resigned) view of the world. They recognize that our languages carry great cultural baggage, to the benefit of some and the detriment of others. That our languages are largely influenced by dominant religions and science, and therefore, texts (whether literary or spiritual, current or mythic, written or oral tradition) must be examined carefully when used by different groups as each appropriates a share of it to convey their own beliefs and meanings. In national politics, dominant culture literature, and broad based entertainment venues, language tends to favor the general vs. the local. The PoMo resignation comes with the understanding that our schools aren't teaching critical thinking skills, and many people grow up learning (through schools and religions) how to consume, with an econonmic view of the world, not a metaphysical view of the world. They aren't learning to examine their lives and the world around them as a form of "text" or a story that can have many tellings and go many directions.

A postmodern view questions religion AND science. Neither should go unexamined by critical thinkers.

Enough generalization about specifics.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: sledge
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:01 PM

Guest,

if your surgeon was losing most of his patients who were already suffering from almost certainly termainal cancer how is that a surprise, surely before any surgery took place he outlined the risk and likely outcome to get their consent, this was their last chance probably wouldn't you say. Given that the survival rates for brain cancer are still only 12% (cancer research uk) is it so hard to grasp at a last chance when death is so close.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:01 PM

" Massage therapy would do so much more to relieve pain, with no negative side effects, than narcotics, for instance"

what's wrong with that picture is the phrase "much more"!

I know massage therapy...my wife DOES it,(professionally, for several years) and it can do some nice things, but it was NOT what I needed when I had a kidney stone, or a strained back. She can help 'some' headaches if they are related to stress and tension, but others respond ONLY to a bit of drugs.

It is not like I have not tried alternative therapies or seen them tried....my mother-in-law spent LARGE sums of money on healers and 'natural' medicines and had pyramids built with wires and metals to 'focus' healing thoughts..etc....and she got worse, and worse and died. Congestive heart failure does not seem to respond to "New Age" therapies.

The problem is, people remember good results, and assign causality to whatever they did just prior to feeling better, even if the results were due to natural results. (old joke...take these pills and repeat this mantra and your cold will be gone in 5-6 days. Or do nothing and your cold will be gone in 5-6 days)

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: mack/misophist
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:51 AM

It's a fair criticism of scientific medicine to say that it's cold and uncareing. This can be improved. No offense to Wolfgang, but it's nothing but basic psychology. (Wolfgang is a psychologist, if you haven't noticed.) There are three main reasons why sceptics oppose the New Age movement:

    A. New Age "medical" therapies often seek validation by inclusion in tax supported plans and institutions. Since these "therapies" are usually unproven or disproven, we see this as a theft of public money and an erosion of what science itself means.

    B. The risk of death or permanent disability from New Age "therapies" is unreasonably high.

    C. New Age authors constantly seek validity by claiming to be "scientific" and using pseudo-scientific jargon. Opposing this is a simple matter of correcting facts.

Science makes no claim to perfection. What it does claim, is that it is the most efficient and effective method for learning about the physical world. Any group that wants to win converts from the community of sceptics will have to prove (in our terms) that their way of looking at the world is more effective.


"If you can't predict with it, it's not science." - JBS Haldane

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: sledge
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:49 AM

Daylia,

I guessed that was the case with yourself, but surely if you are going to live with a foot in both camps, treading a bit more carefully ainn't such a bad idea.

I am still quite sceptical of many claims, the only alternative therapy that I really have time for is accupuncture at the moment as I have seen some of the benefits and its not that uncommon for it to be offered by GP's in the UK.

Watching with interest

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:47 AM

Spoken like a True Believer in the "Skeptic" Movement, there BillD.

A charlatan is a charlatan, whether as a snake oil salesman or a brain surgeon who loses or maims all his patients.

I worked with one of those brain surgeons--virtually every patient he operated on died, but he keeps practicing in a major university teaching hospital, because he is being allowed to do experimental surgeries on patients with tumors in parts of the brain that medical science hasn't been able to successfully treat.

Sound medical science? No. Hit or miss? Yes. He is using living, breathing human beings as if they were cadavers. Deeply disturbing. Now, I'm completely on the side of using human subjects for research if done properly. I'm all for cutting edge medical research. I am fascinated by the science and the art of practicing medicine. But I am as skeptical of so-called "scientific" medicine as I am of the "old wives tales". If it is proven to work, I'm all for it, and I don't care who "discovered" it.

All our medical knowledge came from people, often women, who did the thankless work of collecting, analyzing, and interpreting data on plants, metals, and other naturally occuring substances developed by humans as medicinal curative agents, or from experimenting with and observing the ways physical manipulation of the energy pathways in the human body (ie yoga, tai chi, massage, acupuncture, diet, etc) works to relieve pain and speed healing.

If the term "energy pathways" disturbs you skeptics, you can readily substitute the word "systems" as in the endocrine system, the nervous system, the pulmonary system, etc.

There is a pretty well documented history of extremely useful traditional knowledge (which in some instances is very ancient knowledge indeed) that has been passed down to us. That is as true of science as it is religion. Today's complimentary healing "quacks" (as the skeptics ignorantly insist they are) were yesterday's health care professionals, just like today's astronomers were yesterday's astrologers, or today's metallurgists are yesterday's alchemists.

So just where are those "factually inaccurate" statements, BillD?

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: sledge
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:35 AM

It was A reflex I suppose that the caps lock went on, but then having worked in medicine for aound 23 years I guess I have an instinctive respect for it.

During my time on Hospital wards I nursed quite a few who were grateful for those strong opiates, especially those who illnesses were terminal. And those strong drugs have also seen child cancer survival rates increase by around 20%, thats quite a few relieved families I reckon, better they buy a wig following chemo-therapy than a coffin. And that 20% has come about from years of hard work by white coat wearers using science.

I wonder if our guest would trade in those massages for the medical/scientific side of things if they were lying in bed, their body ravaged by cancer or with their failing liver slowing poisoning the body.

Sledge

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:28 AM

Massage therapy would do so much more to relieve pain, with no negative side effects, than narcotics, for instance. But our insurance industry is beholden to our pharmaceutical industry, so insurance pays for addictive drugs with many negative side effects to relieve pain, rather than massage therapy twice a week, which has no negative side effects, and many positive ones.

So you tell me, what's wrong with that picture?

Nothing, GUEST -- you express my point of view VERY well. That's why I LOVE HUNA -- it's easy, it's simple, it feels wonderful, it costs NOTHING, it works and perhaps even more importantly --- I HATE TAKING DRUGS!!!!

With HUNA, I don't have to.

I haven't even popped a Tylenol in about 4 years now.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:20 AM

You know, it isn't accurate to say that the peoples of the East use Western medicine if they can afford to abandon their culture's traditional medicinal practices. They use both, and see them as complimentary healing modalities, not oppositional modalities the way we have been brainwashed into viewing them in the US. In Europe, where there was once a very strong and powerful tradition of herbal medicine practiced which is the root system to today's pharmaceutical industry, is more open to complimentary healing modalities than the US.

There still is a science dedicated to developing plant based medicines, and it is called pharmacognosy.

Sledge, you are right to point out that we owe a tremendous amount of thanks to the scientific (why did you capitalize that, BTW?) medical community. I wouldn't trade it for a million massages.

But what the scientific medical community has been too dismissive of, are sound medical practices which are less invasive and sometimes take a bit longer to work on a patient, which is the case with many complimentary therapies like acupuncture.

What that all too often overlooks is the relief a patient gets, and how dramatically those therapies work to relieve pain and improve the patient's quality of life. In the very fucked up US medical establishment, if it ain't a pill, a machine, or a surgical intervention, it ain't medicine.

That is just pure bullshit. Massage therapy would do so much more to relieve pain, with no negative side effects, than narcotics, for instance. But our insurance industry is beholden to our pharmaceutical industry, so insurance pays for addictive drugs with many negative side effects to relieve pain, rather than massage therapy twice a week, which has no negative side effects, and many positive ones.

So you tell me, what's wrong with that picture?

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:17 AM

Soory sledge, I was being defensive there -- of course Western medical science has produced many, many "miraculous" benefits over the years. Today, Eastern energetic healing techniques have been proven to complement and enhance Western medicine, "filling in the gaps" where Western medicine falls short.

If I were to break my leg this afternoon, I would go to the hospital to have it set by Western doctors AND I would use HUNA techniques to speed the healing and ease the pain. There are documented reports of Hawaiian Kahunas (priests) completely healing broken bones using HUNA techniques in a matter of minutes - but nevertheless, I certainly would NOT rely completely on one approach. I would use both, and in so doing I would reap the benefits of both.

And I consider myself VERY fortunate to be living in a day and age when both approaches are readily available!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:12 AM

"The "skeptic" movement is interested in harming, psychologically in my opinion, New Age believers."

??what an astounding finish to a piece of slanted, factually incorrect diatribe! The "New Age Believers" do enough harm to themselves....they don't need any help.

I could type for 3 hours pointing out flaws in that strange bit of nonsense which breaks most of the rules of cogent agrument, but I don't have time, and you would just make MORE outrageous remarks in repsponse. You probably will anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:08 AM

Trouble with bridging the chasm is that, on one side, there are solid banks and foundations built on rigorous scientifict practice, and on the other there's...
And that's the trouble; the term "New Age" has become a catch-all, embracing such diverse delights as Hopi ear candle therapy, crystal healing, reiki, shiatzu (off topic - what's a shiatzu? One with no penguins. Sorry...) and every other 'alternative' practice under the sun.
Some, perhaps, may in time be validated and adopted, others are and will always remain quite bonkers; lucrative for the practitioner and sometimes downright dangerous for the gullible.
From my tone, you can probably guess that I'm a sceptic. Not that I want to be, of course. I would love to be able to believe that a quartz crystal can cleanse my chakras or that remotely channelled reiki energy can heal the damaged ligaments in my knee, but I have yet to see proof.
I don't have any agenda other than to embrace what is sensible and rational and reject what is palpably wrong. My scepticism is simply a mater of observation and experience. For good or ill, I've spent a lot of time with people who passionately believe in many 'New Age' techniques and therapies. While there are many who do sincerely believe that they can extract sunbeams from cucumbers and turn base metal into gold, I have seen people being exploited and even damaged by 'New Age' practitioners - including one woman I know who went blind through diabetes because she believed her 'healer' and not her GP.
Ad therein lies the problem. We all want solutions. When we were religious we came to terms with mortality and disease by inventing gods to blame. Then science became the great saviour, with its magic bullets and seers in qhite coats.
Today, however, we seem to be on the run from both. We seem to have largely lost our organised faith and misplaced our trust in science and the enlightenment, and instead run hither and thither, seeking out quick fixes and instant wisdom from any old place.
For our spiritual - and increasingly physical - succour, we're lurching through the aisles of the 'New Age' store like children in a pick'n'mix frenzy, victims of our gullibility and a yearning for some sort of mystery in life.
Of course, the one-on-one attention an alternative therapist gives to a client is a good thing. Most of us want someone to talk to and a sympathetic ear for our troubles. A good massage is always welcome, too. But the rest of it...
This sceptic is glad to hear that Karla McLaren seems to have woken up to reality. If there are other good thinkers out there on the fringes of the New Age, could someone please point me in their direction?

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:03 AM

*daylia* you ought to move to farm country - they could use your help. You have more bullshit in your post than a farmer puts on 1000 acres in ten years. The one thing you have proven is that your IQ is below 70 or you wouldn't believe that grabage.

Of what use is it to keep a post like this in an otherwise informed and intelligent discussion? Is it the price to be paid for freedom of speech or something?

Just to let you know, I've taken IQ tests 3 times in my life - and my scores ranged from 135 - 140. I'm certainly not Einstein, but I'm not exactly a blubbering idiot either.

And I repeat ad nauseum, that "belief" has absolutely nothing to do with life-force energy OR it's effects - anymore than "belief" has anything do with the sun or the life-giving effects it's energy produces.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: sledge
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:03 AM

Daylia, don't be so dissmisive of the Scientific medical community. In the past when "natural healing" was all that was available to many communities, infant mortality was very high, 50%+ or more, a person in their mid 40's was considered old, not to mention a raft of diseases that used to kill off millions . Now we have low infant mortality, a population of ever increasing longevity and treatments that stop a simple infection from being a death scentence.

For example, Smallpox, it used to kill 30% of those who contracted the disease while blinding a large number of those who lived and scaring just about all the others, a scientific program of vaccination meant that the last naturally contracted case was in 1977 with one further case contracted in a lab the following year. Thats what science can do, its proven and not just anecdotal.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:42 AM

When results are all that matters, science is the only thing that works consistently.

Works consistently to do what exactly, mack? Keep the pharmaceutical companies, universities, Western medical establishment, coroners and undertakers in business, perhaps?

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:39 AM

Amos, super ted is singing
    "Doh" a deer a female deer
    Ray a drop of golden sun
    Me a name I call myself
    etc etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:28 AM

The problem I have with the so-called "skeptic" movement (besides the fact they seem to have no social skills and are jerks), is they have an agenda. That agenda is to taunt New Agers by "debunking" their beliefs. The skeptics are a fringe group of idiots with way too much time on their hands.

I'm not interested in anything that nasty. I really don't care what New Agers or "skeptics" believe about one another, and I don't think the "skeptics" movement is rooted in science anymore than the New Age movement is--it is rooted in an unhealthy desire to wreak vengeance upon New Age believers, while leaving religious believers alone. It is kind of like one movement stalking another. Creepy in the extreme.

Now, I will agree that we are living in an era where many people are anti-intellectual, but I don't know that more people are anti-intellectual today vs 50 or 100 years ago.

I fully comprehend that science is often wrong, that it's "theories" (which are really just somebody's wild ass guesses dressed up in scientific language of the field in question, and often with NO data to back it up) are as rooted in their cultural belief system as snake charmers' beliefs are in theirs. The science community simply pays a whole lot more money to be indoctrinated into their belief system than John and Jane Catholic believer or Butterfly-in-the-Evening and Synde New Age believer and their priests and shamans do. The indoctrination system is called "post-secondary education" or "The University" or "Academe" or "institution of higher learning" (depending upon your denomination). A scientist, to my way of thinking (which admittedly has been unduly influenced by one of those "institutions of higher learning") is just as much as priest for the church of scientific rationalism as any pastor is for a church of Episcopalians.

I also actually know what the definition is of "metaphysical" and I know it doesn't mean what many New Agers think it means.

But I also am eternally grateful to those New Age thinkers who have stretched the boundaries a bit when it comes to questioning conventional beliefs. I agree, the majority of the New Age movement is as moribund as the Methodist church or molecular biology as an academic discipline. But there are some good thinkers out there. And as an unabashed intellectual, I love to read what a good thinker has to say. Which is why I don't feel threatened by beliefs that are far outside the mainstream.

I always thought a large part of the problem is the Inquisition nature of the attacks on those who lean towards "New Age" beliefs. Take astrologers, for instance. They aren't new kids on the block. Astrology truly is the roots system of belief to modern day astronomy. Ancient astrologers kicked ass, and figured out some very amazing stuff. If you don't believe that, go to some of the incredible archaeological treasures they built in alignment with the solstices, thousands of years ago, without any of the tools astronomers take for granted today. They were a pretty smart bunch. They had some pretty good engineers working for them too, again, with none of the tools engineers take for granted today. And they moved some mighty big rocks some mighty long distances, and piled them up in a mighty mystical way to make their temples to the stars.

As for the astrolgy of today, I think the whole real conflict is over whether it is "science" or not. Some of it is based on the science of those milleniums ago, and you throw some math in for doing the calculations. But astrology today is really a symbolic system rooted in Greco-Roman or Hindu mythology more than science, even though it does use the planets of our solar system and the rudimentary numeric system of degrees to determine the relationships between the heavenly bodies at any given time, calculated to a particular place on earth.

But it isn't as bizarre as the science community would have you believe. We all operate in our daily lives subconsciously using mythic attributions, be it "Saturnian" qualities, or the qualities attributed to red haired people, or the qualities or essence attributed to particular vocations (one that is still one of the strongest in use in contemporary times), ie what a carpenter is like, what a doctor is like, what a teacher is like, what an Arab man or an English woman is like.

Some might call those frames of reference/beliefs stereotypes rather than mythic archetypes, which is fine. I just think it is a bit more accurate to describe them as mythic archetypes when, in fact, the archetype is rooted in the ancient world.

Other than that, I'm on a journey called life, and the coolest part of it to me is exploring and examining a LOT of possibilities in ways that harm none.

The "skeptic" movement is interested in harming, psychologically in my opinion, New Age believers.

Not cool.

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: GUEST,Skeptic
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:27 AM

*daylia* you ought to move to farm country - they could use your help. You have more bullshit in your post than a farmer puts on 1000 acres in ten years. The one thing you have proven is that your IQ is below 70 or you wouldn't believe that grabage.

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:19 AM

"Cultural training about the dangers of the intellect" – what is she talking about? Yeah, I know, there are countless fantasy/horror movies about science gone wrong, starting with Frankenstein, but I see little evidence of this in "real life" or in our major institutions, like schools, government, churches (except fundamentalist ones), health institutions (except chiropractors). Evidently this "cultural training" doesn't get passed on to everybody, or real doctors and scientists wouldn't exist.

I guess I'll have to read the article!

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:18 AM

From your "mouth watering" quotes she sounds like she's putting a new spin on the New Age, not building a bridge for skeptics.

Thanks, Wolfgang.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: GUEST,mack/misophist
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:13 AM

At the risk of showing the same 'cultural insensitivity' as James Randi, I'm bound to comment that the New Age movement is essentially religious in nature - focused on belief and personal perception rather than verifiable results. It's core members do not seem to understand the scientific method or the reason for it's existence.

Rather than start an interminable argument over minutiae, I will just point out that in India and China, seen by many New Agers as the twin fonts of wisdom, those who can afford to use western medicine, not the traditional forms. When results are all that matters, science is the only thing that works consistently.

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:12 AM

Same to you with brass knobs on!

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:10 AM

Superted, I don't know what you mean, but it seems tome you are being supercilious and nasty. What are you on about? Why can you not stay silent until you have something productive to say?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:57 AM

Doh!

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:09 AM

Unified field theory, in particle physics, is an attempt to describe all fundamental forces and the relationships between elementary particles in terms of a single theoretical framework. Forces can be described by fields that mediate interactions between separate objects. In the mid-19th century James Clerk Maxwell formulated the first field theory in his theory of electromagnetism. Then, in the early part of the 20th century, Albert Einstein developed general relativity, a field theory of gravitation. Later, Einstein and others attempted to construct a unified field theory in which electromagnetism and gravity would emerge as different aspects of a single fundamental field. They failed, and to this day gravity remains beyond attempts at a unified field theory

link to where I got this - no need for LH to repeat it...

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:04 AM

There has been plenty of scientific work done already to bridge the gap between Western science and Eastern energy work, particularly in the field of health. Therapeutic Touch, acupuncture, and Reiki are now practiced in hospitals and medical clinics alongside traditional Western doctoring and surgery. Here's a quote from the Reiki article ...

The word, "Rei", means variously - universal, spiritually guided, and divine. Additional research shows that it also means supernatural consciousness or spiritual consciousness [some would say simply "ghost-like, non-physical, spiritual]. In the West, one might speak of God-consciousness without the connotation of religion, if that concept is possible to the Western mind.

The word "Ki" is a Japanese word referring to life force or energy [some would say pervasive internalized universal energy]. In Chinese it is "Ch'i" or "Qi". In Sanksrit, in Hindu thought, it is referred to as "Prana"; in Hawaiian it is "Ti" or "Ki", in Polynesia it is "Mana", in Iroquois it is "Orenda, in Greek it is "Pneuma" or "Nous", in Hebrew it is "Ruah", in Islamic countries it is "Barraka", and in the West it has been called the Light, cosmic energy, odic force, orgone, bioplasma, Universal Radiant Energy, and Vital Life Force.

Western scientists, such as Einstein, Heisenberg, Bohr, and Planck have said that energy is the essence of the material world. Quantum physics demonstrates that solid matter and separation into "things" is somewhat illusory; there are only varied states of energy. This view is inherent in the Unified Field Theory ....

Research in the fields of psychology, oncology, immunology, and cardiology has shown that the reduction of stress has immediate important positive effects on the immune system and cell changes, as well as in the avoidance of pathology. Many diseases are related to excess stress. Can Reiki be of help, since it reduces stress?

Reiki is currently in use as a complementary therapy at the Tucson Medical Center in Arizona, the Portsmouth Regional Hospital in New Hampshire, and at the Memorial Sloan-Kettering Hospital in New York. The Hospital at the University of Pennsylvania (HUP) Medical School, Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center, Marian General Hospital, and the California Pacific Medical Center all offer Reiki to their patients. In Cleveland, hospitals are considering setting up a Reiki clinic. In Vermont, there is already a Complementary Medicine clinic at Windsor Hospital where Reiki practitioners are working. A recent newspaper article indicates that there are at least 65 Reiki practitioners among the doctors and nurses at Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center. There are other hospitals in Vermont, New Jersey and California which have permitted Reiki as a stress-reduction modality. New hospitals are being added to this list almost daily.

I am neither a "skeptic" or a "believer". I am (among other things) an energetic healer - a Master of two traditions of Reiki (Tibetan and Usui Shiki Ryoho) and a HUNA practitioner/instructor. I, my teachers, students and clients have witnessed and experienced many many MANY successful healings using both Reiki and HUNA, healings that could not possibly been accomplished using today's Western medical techniques. Neither I nor they need scientific journals or prizes from Stockholm to "prove" that what we do WORKS! It will be very interesting to see the scientific explanations unfold as years go by.

To illustrate my point (at the risk of boring you with another anecdote), a couple years ago I was visiting my cousin, a Registered Nurse, in Nanaimo BC. She was telling me that in her hospital, Reiki practitioners are welcomed in the surgery rooms as the doctors cannot but agree that patients receiving Reiki energy during surgery recover many times faster and with far less complications. All the nurses at her hospital are encouraged to take courses in Therapeutic Touch as well.

Then she told me her daughter, 10 years old and a promising young figure skater, had been suffering with painful plantar's warts for about a year. SHe had been religiously taking her daughter out of school for weekly chemical "burning" treatments at the doctor's for months. The girl's foot had become a godawful painful mess of angry red inflamed sores, and the child was getting ready to quit her figure skating because of them.

My cousin asked me to use Reiki to help the child's foot, and I did. I passed Reiki energy to that foot about 6 times, a couple minutes each time, over a period of 48 hours. I got a call from her mother a week later thanking me profusely -- she said the child's foot had healed up completely, no more visits to the doctor and she was back to her old routines at the figure skating club.

Well, at the time I was new to Reiki, and found it hard to believe that those few little treatments could have had such an effect - that kid's foot had been a real mess! So I drove the 100 km back to their house to check it out for myself - and sure enough, there was only the faintest little pink scars where those sores had been. WOW -- I was one impressed camper, and she was one happy kid!

Here's a couple more links about energetic healing and the inroads Western science is making, right now! - to document and understand how it works. Enjoy!

Reiki and Science

Eastern vs Western Logic

On Energy work for the Doubter

Measuring Life-Force Energy


SUGGESTION: If you'd rather not wait (and suffer) for years for Western medical science to catch up to Eastern energetic healing methods, try this. Next time you have a headache, a toothache, or any other complaint that you're good and ready to get rid of, PM me. I'll pass you energy, wherever you may be and you can check out the effects and results for yourself.

YOu don't need to "believe" a thing, and you certainly don't need "permission" from Stockholm to try it. You've got nothing to lose except your pain and your skepticism - because the worst these techniques can possibly do for you is .... nothing.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 07:46 AM

whaat!!!

Subject: BS: Science and New Age: Bridging the chasm
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 07:05 AM

Some of you may be interested in reading this article:

Bridging the chasm

Karla McLaren, author of several books on auras, chakras, energy, chronicles her difficult and painful transition to skepticism. She deplores the deficit in effectivly communicating on both sides and the lack of understanding on the side of the believers that skeptics really care about people. Some bits to water your mouth:

I know he would not like to hear this, but it's still true: James Randi's behavior and demeanor were so culturally insensitive that he actually created a gigantic backlash against skepticism, and a gigantic surge toward the New Age that still rages unabated.

Our cultural training about the dangers of the intellect makes it nearly impossible for us to utilize science properly - or to identify your intellectual rigor as anything but an unhealthy overuse of the mind.

We love to say that we embrace mystery in the New Age culture, but that's a cultural conceit and it's utterly wrong. In actual fact, we have no tolerance whatsoever for mystery. Everything from the smallest individual action to the largest movements in the evolution of the planet has a specific metaphysical or mystical cause. In my opinion, this incapacity to tolerate mystery is a direct result of my culture's disavowal of the intellect. One of the most frightening things about attaining the capacity to think skeptically and critically is that so many things don't have clear answers. Critical thinkers and skeptics don't create answers just to manage their anxiety.

Wolfgang