GEFF and Proud of it

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 06:00 AM

GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster

Many of its proponents here on Mudcat and elsewhere seem to think their corner of the folk world is the only one that counts for anything. The rest (the larger part) of the folk world are just seen as opportunists hanging on the coat-tails of the great god of folk - the folk club. Without the folk club, the mantra goes, none of them would exist. Poooph!

I didn't get anywhere with asking Captain Ginger to back up his accusations with evidence but can you produce a single quote that remotely reflects that?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 05:56 AM

Again the Snail makes the mistake of assuming that "do it my way or piss off" is a reasonable position to take.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 05:52 AM

GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster

Beyond criticism? So it would seem.

According to Tom Bliss there are around 300 folk clubs booking guests in the country. I would reckon that means at least 1000 people working as as organisers. I'd be interested to hear if any of us actually made any money at it. I think, at most clubs, the organisers pay on the door like everybody else.
I'm sure we'd all welcome constructive criticism and useful ideas.

What we get is -

Nigel Spencer:

the half-arsed, the lazy or the can't be bothered.

It's all a bit sad really. No, not sad. Pathetic. Insular. Smug. Self defeating. Short sighted. And so on.

What I do see here is a insular, hermetically-sealed world, shot through with bile and rancour and willing to atrophy rather than engage with the outside world. What I see is a scene that hates its young and resents everything they are trying to acheive.

Captain Ginger:

the "it's folk, so who cares" brigade

I repeat: there exists among some in the folk world an attitude that crap performances don't matter because it's only folk.

the procession of the half-dead and the tone-deaf up the pub stairs to the local folk club and the dreadful bleatings and twanglings that they hear therefrom.

In your smug, complacent southern comfort, ignorance really is bliss, it would seem.

Diane Easby:

your "regulars and residents" are still unable to tune, find an appropriate pitch, remember the words or perform PROFESSIONALLY

Then I'm told -

not to bridle at imagined slights and be so stubbornly determined to take comments personally.

Well, how could I.

All this from people who wear it as a badge of merit that they hardly ever go to folk clubs.

Bring us your suggestions and ideas. Help your local club with the administration. If you haven't got a local folk club, start one. Come and help put the chairs out, pay your ticket so all those struggling professionals can earn an honest crust. Do a floor spot so we can hear how it should be done. Come and drink the landlords beer so he looks favourably on us.

But if you can't do anything to help, GET OUT OF OUR WAY.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 05:29 AM

Benjiman, your challenge is a good one as long as 'doing something' doesn't mean 'running a folk club', because not everyone wants to run a folk club and its only one of many ways to skin a cat. I *am* doing something as it happens. It relates completely to making folk music, but it is not happening within that particular sub-genre of folk music, the folk club scene. As soon as I'm ready to share it with the world and not a moment before I will do: unless it turns out not to be *good enough*, in which case I'll have the good grace to keep it to myself. I imagine many in the folk club world - though probably not you, Benjiman - will not greatly approve.

"My point here is that both participative and "concert" events are part of the folk/ trad world"

So is mine. My 'issue' is with the third and probably smallest sector of Tom Bliss's venn diagram above (his post was a very helpful contribution to this discussion) the *folk club*. Many of its proponents here on Mudcat and elsewhere seem to think their corner of the folk world is the only one that counts for anything. The rest (the larger part) of the folk world are just seen as opportunists hanging on the coat-tails of the great god of folk - the folk club. Without the folk club, the mantra goes, none of them would exist. Poooph! That was the sound of scores of musicians and singers disappearing in a puff of smoke. Oh. It didn't really happen.

Folk clubs are ideal for those that like folk clubs. Good luck to all of you: I for one would hate to do anything that might spoil your enjoyment of something that is so obviously precious to you. I'm not going to start a campaign to get you shut down or set up pickets or turn up and shout obscenities. You're safe from me. But please do not assume the 'folk club scene' and for want of a better term, 'the folk scene' are symonymous, or that everything that exists beyond the hallowed walls of this peculiarly british and musty institution is wrong, irrelevant or a threat.

Before we know it bridge club members are going to be going round telling people who attend whist drives and poker schools that they are playing cards in the wrong way.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 04:07 AM

OK Mr Grumpy.....you have a right to criticise, you clearly have a vision of how things should be, are YOU doing anything to support your view of the world....do YOU organise any events along the lines you suggest?

I repeat the same challenge to Captain Ginger....who I note hasn't replied to this point raised with him (I assume) earlier. What are YOU doing to change things?

Ewan Spawned a monster....are YOU doing anything constructive or just spouting hot air?

My point here is that both participative and "concert" events are part of the folk/ trad world. We should stop moaning about how others organise things and if we think we know better use that energy to create new opportunities for both participative and "performance" events......oh and spend some time thinking about the marketing (i.e. how to make these events attractive) to those outside our immediate clique.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 03:34 AM

"I really am driven to despair at the number of people who now seem to see folk music as entertainment to be consumed, and in respect of which they have consumers' rights."

The singaround and the session are both participatory events where standards are determined by what those taking part are capable of and want. There is no consumer - all involved are producers. Essentially they are private parties others can poke their heads round the door of but have no rights in any meaningful sense to make demands about.

The concert is an event where someone determines they are going to charge a fee for members of the public to listen to music. As consumers, those members of the public have every right to complain if they are served up a bag o'shite. Is it the case that 'folk' is exempt from the normal accepted standards one would hop for from any other musical genre? Why so?

The folk club appears to be a late twentienth century anachronism that wants to straddle the two: it wants to charge admission to the public as in scenario two but wants the standards and expectations of scenario one to apply. Some folk clubs are clearly better than this. However, when I am forced to think about folk club folkies, I am reminded of aging teds swaggering along the front at Southend on a wet bank holiday weekend. The two groups are probably about as relevant as each other.

And increasing number of young people who play and listen to traditional music don't bother with folk clubs or set up their own alternatives. After all, folk clubs are what grandad like. That's healthy - better that the musical baton is passed on than allowed to rot in the hands of those who were carrying it a generation or two ago and still believe that their way of doing things is the only acceptable way.

By all means enjoy the clubs, but please don't assume that they are all there is and don't get your knickers in a twist when some of us point out that there is more to traditional music than the remaining remnants of your 1960s and 1970s youth movement.

The raw, the young, the untutored, the passionate, the enthusiastic, the experimenters, the mistake makers, the ones that make you say 'what a bleedin' racket' and all the rest of them WILL get out there and some of them will become the Martin Carthys and Eliza Carthys of tommorrow. They probably won't be doing it round at grandad's place, though. Why would they want to?

Lastly I return to 'Mr Grumpy's view from the bridge, quoted above. Please read his whole post for context, but his words are far more elitist and excluding than anything those who argue that having professional traditional singers is a good thing say: he would exclude from this music the entire public who cannot or will not play an instrument or sing. Folk music - the scene that celebrates itself and assumes no-one else is good enough to have an opinion.

Good enough for folk? I don't know. Beyond criticism? So it would seem.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 03:29 AM

But the most important thing is the passion, not the need for remuneration.

It seems very sad that some who know much are so set on excluding the mass of us who are not up to their standards. The real heroes of folk music (I think especially of Martin Carthy) as far as I know always encourage, and never dismiss.

And of course Mr Carthy, good as he is, does it just for 'passion' and never asks for remuneration. Clubs should of course just do it for the passion as well. Charge the price of a pint. Pay the artists peanuts. After all, it's only folk music isn't it. We shouldn't pay real money. Just do it for the passion.

Listen, no-one is about excluding anyone as far as I can see. Everyone bar none has the the right to warble, twang or mis-beat their drum to their hearts content. It's fine on a singers night as long as people know what to expect. But do you think that even St Martin would be happy if his support act on a 1000 seat concert was me? Tell you what - he may be the first time, but when only 500 people turn up next time he wouldn't be. When there were only 100 the next. When he couldn't get gigs at all...

Sorry but we can't, on the one hand, expect professional performances from the top artists and then, on the other, say money doesn't come into it. And poor performers should stick to the venues where they are welcome and where the audience is, like me, easy to please.

Cheers

Dave.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Leadfingers
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 07:41 PM

I am just back from what is arguably one of the better 'small' clubs in southern England - Askew Sisters tonight did a superb evening to about thirty people ! The club manages on a mix of singers Nights , when EVERYONE pays £2 and Guest nights when EVERYONE bar the Guest act pays £4 . The singers nights support the guest nights , so that the agreed fee is guaranteed , regardless of actual turn out . We are fortunate that we do have a very good stock of competent floor singers who turn out most weeks , but we still have the people who cant even read a poem from a book without stumbling over the words , and the others who cant remember the first verse of a song ! For the most part , though , MOST of the floor singers do a well prepared and enjoyable set of songs/tunes/whatever . For US , it works , and the people we do book always seem happy to come back !
For us , thats Good Enough !

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Leadfingers
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 07:31 PM

Quick 1oo

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST, Mr Grumpy
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 07:24 PM

I really am driven to despair at the number of people who now seem to see folk music as entertainment to be consumed, and in respect of which they have consumers' rights.

How nice that there are a few people like Sedayne and the Snail who will champion the right of the ordinary to make music. Most of us are ordinary or worse.

It is delightful that there are dedicated experts who are prepared to be underpaid because the muse moves them. No-one would begrudge them a better living.

But the most important thing is the passion, not the need for remuneration.

It seems very sad that some who know much are so set on excluding the mass of us who are not up to their standards. The real heroes of folk music (I think especially of Martin Carthy) as far as I know always encourage, and never dismiss.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 06:01 PM

What guests ask for, and what they get, are not always the same figure. A gate of 45 just puts you into the larger club category taken across the board of 450 (many - most? - of whom would never use the word Traditional in their title). Also, Repertoire Clubs like yours tend to have a more loyal membership, who reliably support guest nights, so can offer larger fees per seat average. Activity Clubs often have trouble getting regulars (who are more interested in playing than listening - which is fair enough) to turn out on guest nights, so offer lower fees. Concert clubs do have to pay top whack, but often don't break even. I could name a top concert club that could bank on 150 seats two seasons ago, but averaged less that 50 last time. Big Names, too. Not many artists would expect to get the same fees at a club than an arts centre - but there are other benefits to be had.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 05:04 PM

You do surprise me Tom as these are the figures that we get quoted. Certainly the names that you mention would be at the top end of that scale but I doubt that we could expect to book a good, well known revival singer below the £200 mark. We are not a particularly big club in as much as the room holds 60 (fire regulations and all that)and average attendance is around 45, although we are well known on the traditional folk circut. A lot of the singers that we book are of the song carrier variety whose fees are usually a bit lower than those I mentioned.However running monthly with a few workshops and extra nights thrown in we do like to present about four major names and a couple of very big names throughout the year and that is when the £350 becomes the starting point. We have had that figure plus the hire of PA quoted and £500/600 + PA for duo's and solo singers has been requested. But if they can expect that figure from the Arts Centres..............

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 03:36 PM

From the thread started today by Sarah the Flute, about the Proms :

Sunday 20 July, 10.00-12.00pm (before Prom 4)
Proms Folk Family Chorus
If you love singing and you'd enjoy learning some new folk songs, sign up for the Proms Folk Family Chorus. Or perhaps the Proms Folk Family Orchestra might be more your kind of thing.

The idea is to give family members – whether mums, dads, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles or grandparents – the chance to play music together. Everyone is welcome, from keen amateurs to those who've never played in an orchestra before.

So, GEFTP, now!

Kitty

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 02:32 PM

"a solo performer can now command £200/£350 per night"

A handful of solo Big Names CAN get this (and more) at larger clubs. This is a more typical duo fee - but only for clubs that can afford it (less than 100)?

Some clubs never get near £100, and a lot can't afford £200, even for a duo.

I'd estimate that an average fee across the land for a solo artist not called Martin, Vin, Boo, Bernard or Clive would be somewhere between £100 and £200.

Say £150. Of which perhaps 50 are costs (mainly fuel, but insurance, instruments, strings etc. all add up).

So to make £16k you need to do 160 gigs a year.

There are about 300 clubs that book guests. Some have 52 guests a year, some only 1. The majority are 1 or 2 a month. We are currently researching this at the moment (I'm afraid I've not been as clever with my own records as I should have been), but if we carved it up as 75 doing 50, 75 doing 24, 75 doing 12, and 75 doing 6 for the sake of the exercise we'd get a figure of 6,900 paying club gigs per year.

We're trying to research the number of artists too. FolkandRoots lists about 1,380 acts, not all of whom want to play clubs (lots of dance musicians there, for example, plus big acts that almost no club could afford). Also the same people appear in different guises, so the number of club acts is far lower. There are 150+ pros/serious-semis on the Britfolk list, and perhaps the same again who are not. Plus perhaps the same number of 'local' people getting paid bookings at clubs.

If we hazard that there are about 450 acts chasing those 6,900 gigs, that makes about 15 gigs a year each.

Typical income £1,500 per annum. [nice].

Of course it doesn't work like that because first my numbers are probably pants, (and I can't use a calculator), and anyway some people work a lot, and some are content with a gig every couple of months. Plus there are festivals where you're paid for a full day, not just an evening, and CD sales, and a lot of people do other gigs as well as clubs such as village halls, arts centres and bars - plus many teach. And the vast majority have day jobs anyway (or long-suffering partners with day jobs).

But it is food for thought if you're interested in that kind of thing.

I've not kept records (I wish had) and I can't find my last calculation, but I think it was that about 150 clubs have either closed altogether or stopped booking paid guests in the last five years. There have been about 20 new starters, a few of which have folded within a year.

There are less than a dozen clubs who run workshops.

There are now about 150 singaround-only clubs, some flourishing, some struggling.

I'm not putting any kind of value on those figures.

Finally...

The tradition is two separate things. It is an activity, and it is a repertoire (and to a certain extent a style). The activity does not require the repertoire, and the repertoire does not require the activity.

If you draw a venn diagram, it is the central portion that is in decline.

The outer two portions are flourishing.

And the central portion is something of a mirrored ball.

From inside - once you have taken the plunge - it is almost impossible to see out - hence why people can seem to wear blinkers.

From outside - if you have no incentive to plunge - it can look uninviting. Repertoire/activity Folk is to an extent an acquired taste, and most who are happy in that space acquired that taste when it was sugared by being sexy. It's not quite so sexy now - but people do travel towards the scent, and by the time they arrive their appetites are well whetted.

So the task is to take the silver off the ball and open all the windows.

Tom

For the record I am happy in all three zones of the venn, and will continue to do what I can actively to support all three.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: mattkeen
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 01:48 PM

Great post Captain G.
That is an accurate statement of my experience too.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 01:40 PM

:D Thanks, snail. Apologies accepted. Who's Guido anyway?

I think I may have spotted the main cause of contention here - A few people, including myself, have complained that there are some, repeat some, realy poor performers on the folk scene. Others seem to have taken that as a personal afront and taken it to mean that somehow the whole 'scene' is awash with crap artists. Although why people take offence at someone criticising such a vague concept as the folk 'scene' is beyond me.

Nothing could be further from the truth though. The majority of artists are professional in approach and standards. It is the odd few that spoil it. I don't think anyone could find anywhere on here that gives the impression that the folk world is full of buffoons who wouldn't know their arses from their arias. If there is such an impression given somewhere can anyone point me to it?

There seems to be a lot of over-reaction at some honest, down to earth, self critisism. And it is SELF criticism here. When we say that there are some bad performers we are not saying that from the outside looking in. We are, believe ot or not, in the same field as you, snail. Some less so and some much more.

The point is the folk world is not perfect, just the same as the rest of the world. No need to defend it. No need to feel in anyway threatened or insecure. No-one is naming names or getting personal because we are all too nice for that.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 01:11 PM

"Oh, to be in England, now that spring is here."

Then maybe I could figure out what the Hell Snail's second post up MEANS. P'r'aps I'm am better off not knowing.

Re. certain above remarks on what leads to a state of bliss, my all-time favorite washroom graffito is "Ignorance is STRENTH."

CC
Wondering if channel swapping is closer to wife-swapping or channel-surfing and who all those other people are.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 12:38 PM

You really don't get it, do you?
Honestly, it's small wonder that BBC pundits can get away with their comments on folk when it has champions like you, Snail.
Stick your head out of your shell and read some of the comments on other threads - comments from people who actively participate in traditional music. Festivals are thriving, concerts are fully-booked but clubs - with a few exceptions - are dying on their feet because of the image they present. You may choose to bimble along and ignore this because you are lucky enough have a thriving club (one of those exceptions), but it isn't going to stop.
And one of the side-effects will be that the fewer successful clubs that survive will probably attract more punters from a wider area, which will make you crow all the louder about the glories of Lewes, but it won't be such good news for those who make their living from music, or for those of us who will find ourselves living too far from any decent club to attend, or for the youngsters who could have benefited from finding their music's roots via a good club, or for regional song or for many other things.
Anyway, this thread isn't about you and the Nirvana-on-Sea that is Lewes; it's about the legions of clubs on the critical list, and about the punters of all ages who have voted with their feet.
This evening I would love to go to a decent club. You know what? The nearest one is 40 miles away and I have neither the time nor the money to make the trip in the hope that there's something decent on. Instead I make my own music, listen to recorded music and go to whatever gigs I can find where I know there'll be decent music and I'll get my money's worth and not have to cringe or make excuses.
But, hey, what do you care? In your smug, complacent southern comfort, ignorance really is bliss, it would seem.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 12:35 PM

Dave Polshaw

OK Dave, I apologise unreservedly. I should have said "Dave just seems to have a Mancunian determination to find any excuse to grumble.

As for your second post, Guido will be around as soon as he is available.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 12:32 PM

And don't let Dave wind you up with false confessions. He's more than a bit good and he smiles.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 12:31 PM

Sedayne--

I'm not talking "mediocre." I'm talking hair-raising, teeth-clenching, nails on the chalkboard, shivers up the spine type stuff.

I don't care how little I paid at the door; I resent having to sit through somebody trashing my art form of choice. Self-expression is great, but what if you don't have a self to express? Poor old Faust spent all his life striving for just an instant of happiness, as did Hokusai, rather famously, and I may dig out his quote and post it, because it hits right between the eyes of this, "This is crap, but it's me, so here I go" school of it's all OK as long as we enjoy it thinking.

I don't want to "do it as well," I want to do it better. I want to do it better until my fingertips feel like they're going to drop off.

Oh, well. Guess I'm vocalizing up the improper dendrite. (After reading your erudite post, I couldn't lower myself to say, "Barking up the wrong tree.")

CC

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 12:31 PM

Sedayne wont be surprised to find that I pretty much agree with what he says. When I went to a folk club for the first time in 1964 I was astonished that people could simply stand in a room and sing a simple song, tell a story and hold such great tunes. I have always enjoyed singing with others since the cubs and scouts.

Where Sedayne is most right is that the singing in small rooms is a lot of what folk is almost by definition and it can be both joyous and not much good.

Dave sums it up well from the other perspective, when we pay we expect value for money, maybe not great value but a bit. I think it is very difficult for Folk Clubs to provide quality and quantity every week for a long time. Whenits not very good and repetitive people stop going.

I really enjoyed Bellowhead, Pete Bog Faries, Duncan McFarlane Band, and Salsa Celtica but they seem a long way from the rest of us and from what ever we are trying to do.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 12:26 PM

Tell you what as well, snail, seeing as you seem to be hung up on the proof thing, I am happy to take the rap.

I never practice. I forget words all the time. I play guitar terribly and concertina even worse. I cannot hold a tune to save my life and I make sure that I mumble on for at least 5 minutes before starting a song. Every time I go to a folk club I feel slightly guilty about it but, what the hell, it's only folk music. Who gives a shit?

There. Enough proof for you? Can we get on now?

Cheers

dave

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 12:18 PM

Dave just seems to have a Mancunian determination to find any excuse to be miserable.


Errr, excuse me. I have never said I am miserable. I have never been miserable by nature. I am a very happy person as are most of the people I know and, as far as I know, most of the people of Manchester.

I am afraid I see this a very personal insult and would like you to withdraw that accusation forthwith. You don't know me at all. What right to you have to broadcast such libelous accusations on the internet?

And I am afraid that your attitude of completely disbelieving anything that anyone else says unless it fits in with your experience is becoming rather tedious. A bit like the politicians who say that there is no crime just becasue tehy have never been mugged.

Thank you in advance.

Dave.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 12:05 PM

Captain Ginger

Snail, your continued bleatings for 'evidence' are irrelevant, get it?

Or, to put it another way, there isn't any.

Must go and put in some practice in case I get a floor spot at the Royal Oak tonight. Looks as if you could be in for a good evening Captain; with a bit of channel swapping you can get Hollyoaks, Emerdale and Eastenders back to back.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 11:48 AM

Snail, your continued bleatings for 'evidence' are irrelevant, get it?

Anyway, I agree totally that context is all, and that what goes on in an impromptu singaround or the back of a pub or whatever is often rough round the edges but usually rather wonderful. Singing for its own sake, and for the sheer joy of joining voices with other human beings is part of what makes us human. It's what goes on at the Tap and Spile in Whitby and the Middle Bar at Sidmouth and is something to celebrate.
My gripe comes when there's someone on the door taking money, and when something is advertised as entertainment; when the audience can't wander in and out as the music takes their fancy or leaves them cold. When something is being presented to the public as 'folk'. That's when we need to be critical and to see things through the public's eye. And what I have often seen makes my toes curl with embarrassment, to tell the truth (but of course, I've got no 'evidence' of that, so it doesn't count for our resident gastropod!).

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 11:21 AM

In my experience (30+ years and counting!) Folk Music is what people do in folk clubs to the very best of their passions & abilities; and if the latter doesn't measure up in technical terms to anything approaching conventional musical proficiency that doesn't render it mediocre - it is simply what it is and quite wonderfully so, occurring within the only performance context suitable for individuals with a love of Folk Music of any stripe to get up and sing whatever they want to in the company of others who want to do it as well.

It's an ideal of living; a utopian dream of commonality; an egalitarian coming together of like-minds nevertheless diverse enough to think for themselves; which is enough for someone like me who never listens to folk music outside of a folk club unless I happen to chance across Folk on 2 on the radio (in which case I invariable switch it off - especially now that I realise Mike doesn't accompany himself on guitar whilst reading out the charts).

The political cause of Folk Music is Humanity proudly raising our voices, both individually & collectively for whatever reason because the socio-context of Folk Music is not professional performance or studio recorded LP or CD products, which, at best, can only ever be an affectation based however so remotely on the elemental idiosyncratic empirical & corporeal rudery of a music the value of which is the immediacy of its experience, as it always has been, away down the merry centuries with people singing & playing to the very best of their abilities without ever once stopping to wonder of they're somehow good enough. I know - I've got the field recordings to prove it!

If I suspected that this wasn't the case, I'd find something else to do on Thursday nights (Fleetwood), or the first Saturday & Wednesday (Byker & Chorlton respectively) of each month, or whenever we chance upon a singers night on our travels, because where'er I go, I always find the same beauteous cranky curmudgeonly eccentric wonderment in a singaround as I've always done, thus restoring my faith in a very simple human truth.

The question is now - do I post this, or delete it like I usually do? Oh, what the hell...

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 10:55 AM

Their is a range of venues, small room singaround, small folk club, large folk club with PA, small concert venues, medium and large venues, tents and big tents at festivals.

Because of the floor singer tradition some people feel they can sing anywhere. Generally a good thing. What is acceptable in small venues, however, is probably not at larger venues. Well managed events manage this.

We seem to enjoy rowing at opposite ends of this spectrum.

The people who gave us our tradition would probably be at home in the small singaround. "Tradarts" seems to demand a much higher standard of performance. Generally a good thing. Lets try to separate what we and my friends can do in a small room from Shrewsbury Festival.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 10:51 AM

I'd have to discuss things with Dick to find out what he really thought but he doesn't seem to be saying that there is an attitude of encouraging bad performances just that we are not critical enough.

You still haven't produced any direct evidence of anyone supporting the "it's folk, so who cares" attitude as I have asked you to do several times now.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Paul, still in the office!
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 10:44 AM

Snail,

"It seems to work for us."

No one can really argue with that then.....especially if they haven't been to your club.

My previous post was too emphasise that there are many different formats......find one that suits you (or not!) but get out there and try some...........if you don't like any of them set something up for yourself and like minded people.

To be fair to Diane I know she is exploring setting events up (and may have in the past, I don't know) but Captain Ginger Sir what are you doing to change the current situation that you don't seem to like.........?

Paul

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 10:41 AM

Dave, I'm pleased to read that, and more power to your elbow. You would seem to be one of those (alongside the Snail) who is getting it right. Sadly, for every good club like yours there are plenty that don't cut the mustard and which are dying on their feet as a result.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 10:39 AM

Dick and his wife are very familiar with the club and festival circuit as regular visitors to the UK, as my earlier post said. Do you agree with the points he (and others) make in that thread about the quality of performance in clubs, or is he just another prejudiced naysayer as well?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 10:38 AM

Diane, What I have been trying to do for over 40 years is to maintain the standard of performance within a folk club that you and Captain lament is no longer there in many cases. In attempting to do so I have made myself bloody unpopular with some who do not have the talent, the intelligence or the manners to perform professionally in front of an audience. In fact there is a rumour circulating at present regarding our club, Traditions at the Tiger, Long Eaton, that we don't allow anyone to sing from books; it's not strictly true but it is certainly something that we don't encourage.
When I set out in the folk clubs in 1966 artists fees were in the region of £15/£25 and door charges were around 2/6d of course things have changed and a solo performer can now command £200/£350 per night and naturally our door charges are set to cover this.
The only thing that I have heard as regards our club putting people off is that we are "too traditional" but looking at our title that is akin to saying that the BNP is too right wing.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 10:35 AM

Paul

I'm interested though, do you have floorsingers on guest nights? If so do you apply any quality standard to those floorsingers......

Yes we do. No we don't.

It seems to work for us.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 10:30 AM

Captain Ginger

OK, Snail, try this one. Dick Greenhaus, by the way, is the guy you can thank for the Digital Tradition.

Yes, excellent fellow. One of the people who is actually doing something constructive for folk music. Is he familiar with the UK folk club circuit?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Paul...out of his meeting
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 10:16 AM

oooops, pressed button too soon on post above.

Captain,Diane,

I don't totally disagree with some of the points you are making but I re-iterate that performance standards are about context.....what is good enough for a general singaround (sometimes called a folk club)without a paying audience may not be good enough for a paid performance (in what is sometime called a folk club) with a paying audience...pretty obvious really.

Snail, keep doing what your doing at Lewes. I'm interested though, do you have floorsingers on guest nights? If so do you apply any quality standard to those floorsingers......I'm not seeking to criticise, just interested?

Paul

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Paul,
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 10:07 AM

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 10:05 AM

OK, Snail, try this one. Dick Greenhaus, by the way, is the guy you can thank for the Digital Tradition. And he's seen a lot of performances in sessions and clubs on both sides of the pond.
And Charlie, some people will never listen and never learn, so that's one for Guido. When he's done his stuff for you, I can find plenty more work for him!

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 09:57 AM

Captain Ginger, that link takes me directly to a balanced, thoughtful and courteous post from Mikefule so I'm not sure what point your making. I took part in that thread, mainly to refute Folkiedave's claim that modern folk clubs were entirely populated by teenage diary singers.

There was quite a lot of the usual rubbish on there from people of the "I never go to folk clubs because ...." persuasion. It seems to be quite common. You, Nigel and Diane boast of rarely if ever going to folk clubs and feel that this gives you the authority to condemn them.

You know, I think we can manage without you.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 09:50 AM

First off, on the subject of "professionalism," I believe it was Plato, in one of the early Sokratic dialogues, who said that flute playing and getting paid for flute playing are two entirely different things. I have a dictionary too, thanks, but I tend to rate "pros" in a performance context by how well they do, not how much they are paid. I know a duo--how they met, I have no idea--one of whom is a high-powered accountant for a world-class megafirm and the other of whom cleans pools for a living. Their rendition of "Angel from Montgomery" is so drop-dead spell-binding that when they do it for free at an open mike, I think to myself, "Self, now that's professional."

Now, not that I want to take sides, but I find Captain Ginger coming close to how I feel. Besides, I remember a quick little snippet from "Upstairs, Downstairs" in which somebody was doing 'Captain Ginger' in a music hall. But I digress. Recalling that once upon a time I had difficulty singing on key and playing up to three chords on anything but a bongo drum, I am not against "beginners." I'm all for self-actualization.

But, Captain, here's where I'm stuck, and maybe you can help me with this. I see too many folks who, IMO, have not grasped the idea that ye folke house is an opportunity to make progress. I use to sometimes say, when introducing myself, "Well, I've been playing for 40 years, but I plateaued 39 years ago." In the meantime, I was giving a lot of time and thought to making that not true, or at least trying. At whatever glacial rate, I am nonetheless trying to improve. But there are those who come back week after month, who can be counted on to continue forgetting how the second verse goes, using a one-strum-fits-all approach to rhythm, and showing off their latest instrumental "improvisation" which goes nowhere in any known key or mode, and next to which taiko drums sound downright melodic.

What do I do? (a) Rise above it and hope that their in their next incarnation they know where the downbeat goes? (b) Risk being a pompous ass by suggesting subtly that that wonderful song would sound even better if ....? (c) Give Guido their address and 100 bucks/50 quid? No, all their fingers, Guido. All of them.

As you say, Captain, there are good nurseries, but what if no one wishes to suckle? "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink; you can send a boy to college, but you cannot make him think."

Suggestions?

CC

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: mattkeen
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 09:42 AM

Here we go - perhaps this sad argument will end up getting even more posts than the last mega thread of misery.

Sorry to see Nigel go too, am pretty much 100% in agreement with him.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Karin
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 09:27 AM

There are bad performances in all genre of music...the fast food syndrome is tipping over into everything else...people don't want to take time to learn the craft.
TASTE has something to do with our reception too. Some radio stations refuse to play females back to back...some people are into blues while others Celtic or blue grass and show disdain if the performer is boxed with their favorite label. All in all though I think that young musicians need to perform in order to get better. You never really begin to grow until you play to an audience. As musicians it ought to give some kind of JOY watching a young or new musician play...perhaps the goal should be to limit the performance to warm up act for seasoned musicians or limit the amount of time they are on stage. lol. I work with young people learning guitar and am always excited when they choose folk...A large percentage of people believe that 'noise' and lots of it gets them 'going' they don't have to think or really listen...lazy audiences. They find folk distasteful because it doesn't slam their senses and make them lose their edge...I suspect they also make love drunk.lol. You can't deal with that kind of mentality. They are always going to contribute to the illusion that folk is boring...
Let the inexperienced play so as to become experienced. We have a southern traditions music store that has jams every week and it gives the newbies an opportunity to mingle with the ol'timers...fantastic.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 09:19 AM

And Snail, take a look at this thread. You'll find some of the same home truths there. Or are many of those posters just prejudiced as well?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 09:12 AM

Yes, I forgot to mention people I've met at festival ceilidhs who, I've taken along later to a club because they said they'd like to see again an act that caught their eye in one of the breaks. Yes, I too have been seriously embarrassed as these horrified guests are so appalled at the weirdness and vow never to enter a "f*lk club" again. Like the Cap'n, I rarely go myself nowadays, and only when I really, really want to see an act and then only at certain venues.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 09:04 AM

Snail, old chap, this is futile. You can't accept that anyone who is of the folk world can have an opinion which differs from yours, and any dissenting view is merely prejudice.
I'm afraid you simply don't or won't get it. Meanwhile the number of clubs is falling, the average age of punters is rising and a good proportion of the world which has an interest in folk wouldn't be seen dead in one - which is a shame because, as I said earlier, clubs could be a terrific nursery for young talent.
It's a bit like the mainstream CofE; dwindling away as parishioners die off and being sidelined while the evangelicals and the charismatics prosper, to say nothing of other faiths and the great mass of atheists and agnostics growing in numbers.
To mangle metaphors, old mollusc, you're being an ostrich, and one day you'll be a dodo.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 09:02 AM

I don't visit C&W fora and neither (as far as I am aware) does the Cap'n.

*We (I think I can say that) are HERE because we see a pressing need for the very tarnished and misunderstood (to the public at large) image of the tradarts to be raised more than a few notches.

*We fail to see why the ragged band of "organisers" take it as a personal slight if we criticise what is clearly wrong and damaging to that image, to the livelihoods of artists who cannot command living fees because the VENUES (not themselves) do not merit it and potential new punters are put off bigtime in their droves.

(*Disclaimer: if the Cap'n, Nigel, Dave, Paul or anyone else wishes to dissociate themselves from this blanket assumption, do feel free.)

You've done it like this for the past 40 years? You mean you haven't noticed that the world has changed? That punters' requirements are a tad more cutting edge? That the cost of living has escalated exponentially and artists have just the same outgoings as you? And that while their artistic standards have rocketed your "regulars and residents" are still unable to tune, find an appropriate pitch, remember the words or perform PROFESSIONALLY in front of your punters?

Has anybody even SEEN the plot?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 08:51 AM

I've never said I haven't been near a folk club in years. I used to go to two or three a week - now it's two or three a year. That's not the issue - what matters is how we appear to 'outsiders'.
I have on occasion taken non-folk friends to clubs and sessions over the past couple of years, and they have remarked on the oddness and the sheer bloody amateurishness of much of what they saw. To quote one back in February, "F**k me, if anyone was that bad at my local music venue they'd be laughed off the stage. It was a comedy act, wasn't it?". It's got to the point where I either don't try to introduce people to the stuff at a local level or I spend ages making excuses for it. However, I'm getting to an age where I can't be bothered to make excuses any more.
And I'm not rubbishing anyone's taste in music (de gustibus... and all that), merely the presentation.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 08:46 AM

Paul (banjiman)

I think that is all The Snail is saying (he'll tell me if I'm wrong).

That's about it. Looking forward to seeing you and Wendy if you can pay us a visit.

Rapunzel

Nigel does get out plenty - I've even seen him in folk clubs.

I wonder why he says he doesn't then.

Captain Ginger

Mr Snail, you can shout, hector and write in big letters all you like, but I most certainly can't be arsed to fossick through the countless threads on this forum to satisfy some petulant demand for 'evidence' which will promptly be batted aside

I think I'll just let others draw their own conclusions from that.

just look at contributions on this thread from Nigel, Diane, Dave and Paul.

I think Paul could have the right to take offence at being included in that list. I don't think he's said anything to support you strange views and Dave just seems to have a Mancunian determination to find any excuse to be miserable.

But you, Diane and Nigel? A happy little triumvirate backing each others prejudices because you KNOW THE TRUTH regardless of what anyone else might say.

At root all I'm asking is that we take a dispassionate look at the image we present to the outside world

Good idea Captain; why don't you give it a try.

and that we take a bit more pride in what we perform, promote and produce

I do. So do a great many other people.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 08:35 AM

Captain, Regarding your last sentance where some of us who have been committed over the last forty plus years to do exactly that within the folk clubs that we organise it is hardly surprising that we take these things personally. Especially from those who boast that they haven't been near a folk club in years. I personally don't care much for Country and Western but I'm not on some C&W forum rubbishing their taste in music or how they present it!
Anyway I think that the term "Near enough for Jazz"(or in the North East "near enough for pit work")predated GEFF by some years.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 08:21 AM

Mr Snail, you can shout, hector and write in big letters all you like, but I most certainly can't be arsed to fossick through the countless threads on this forum to satisfy some petulant demand for 'evidence' which will promptly be batted aside - but without going too far from here, just look at contributions on this thread from Nigel, Diane, Dave and Paul.
I repeat: there exists among some in the folk world an attitude that crap performances don't matter because it's only folk. It's one I don't encounter in classical, jazz, blues, rock or any other genre that I follow.
However much you stamp your foot and put your hands over your ears, it's a problem which won't go away unless we actually recognise it. For a lot of people, folk music is crap because their only exposure to what they think it to be is the procession of the half-dead and the tone-deaf up the pub stairs to the local folk club and the dreadful bleatings and twanglings that they hear therefrom.
At root all I'm asking is that we take a dispassionate look at the image we present to the outside world and that we take a bit more pride in what we perform, promote and produce if we want to attract new blood. Now stop taking it so personally, there's a good chap.