Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:43 PM Well that's told us ollaimh. I apologise deeply for ever liking folk music when I should have liked something belonging to my own race, whatever that might be. James Miller's mother was born 25 miles too far east and the wrong gender to be true Scotsman, and James himself was born in England, and had no right to consider himself Scottish, unlike people born in Nova Scotia where the magic sticks yea even unto the seventh generation. But suitably chastened I will cease to sing or play music that doesn't belong to me, and take up Blues. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Mar 13 - 12:22 PM "jimmy miller wrote good songs," No - Ewan MacColl wrote good songs. I wonder whether you people ever consider the effect of your referring to somebody by a name he stopped using forty-odd years ago, has on Neill MacColl and Callum MacColl or Kirsty MacColl or Hamish MacColl, or Kitty MacColl Would you refer to Judy Garland as Ethel Gumm, or Irving Berlin as Israel Baline or Cary Grant as Archie Leech - or Bob Dylan as Robert Zimmermann - it would be simple bad manners to do so, so why use it as a vendetta against somebody who has been dead for thirty-odd years, a little ghoulish, don't you think? It's a snide small-minded practice and only small-minded people resort to it to score some sort of small minded-points. MacColl's mother was from Auchterader in Perthshire, his father was from the lowlands - MacColl sang Scots songs because that's what he grew up with, not to claim any sort of "Gaelness" whatever that is. In the twenty-odd years I knew Ewan I never heard him once refer to himself as a Gael He was born and grew up in Salford in the middle of the 1930s depression in appalling conditions which gave him a life-long hatred of the system that produced it. His life experience inspired him to look out 'ordinary' people (whatever they are), listen to and record what they had to say and make songs based on what he was told. Songs like Freeborn Man, Shoals of Herring, Shellback and Tenant Farmer were based on actual recordings of fishermen, farmers, Travellers, coalminers..... The Radio Ballad 'The Travelling People' helped draw attention to the persecution of Travellers in Britain and helped bring about changes in the laws regarding stopping places for them. The Radio Ballads gave 'ordinary' people a voice they never had before, Navvies, railwaymen, fishermen, colaminers.... Far from being "racist", songs like 'Sharpville' and compositions like 'White Wind' exposed extreme murderous racism... and helped immortalise some of it worst excesses. He drew attention to the fact that the music we love came from working people and was almost certainly a reflection of their lives throughout history - the 'lower-class art of people who are still considered as being 'artless'. I'd be more than happy to have a tiny fraction of this carved on my gravestone - wouldn't anybody? The only opportunity we will ever get to seriously discuss and analyse MacColl's contribution to traditional song is when we make this back-biting and corpse-dancing a thing of the past. Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: GUEST,ollaimh Date: 25 Mar 13 - 10:56 AM the whole fake persona of anglo folk was everywhere back in the sixties and seventies. it's cultural appropriation. a form of racism. it's often worse from old "socialists". their brave new world of fine housing would have happily wiped out the ethnic enclaves, and not to worry about the culture, they would do the culture for you. jimmy miller wrote good songs, but he was unconscious of the effect of his ideas about ethnic differences. his followers pretty routinely would shut out people actually from the ethnic background he pretented to be from because they had one of those--a fake. I found this for French gaelic and many other ethnic groups. it's so much easlier to have a well mannered anglo sing the foreigh songs than those annoying foreigners who don't know who to brown nose and how to tug the forelock properly.the anglo folk scene is much more concerned with minorities kissing the right asses than the actual music. luckily the paying scene wants traditional music played by people from traditional cultures--especially in the united states. and miller was from lowland scots background. NOT A GAEL. the reason lowland scots and English want to pretend these ethnic differences don't matter is because then they would have to address their centuries of bloodshed and injustice. after all it's all just geography, I was born in nova scotia so I an an Amerindian native , that would be the same claim. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 25 Mar 13 - 10:22 AM Fascinating, Guest. Mrs G has a book about 'Underground Manchester'. I will see if the canal is referenced in it. I'd love to have a look in some of those old cellars and under the arches at the side of the Irwell - Wonder if they will ever open them up to tourists! D. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: GUEST Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:52 AM Dave is right. The Manchster and Salford Junction Canal never actually reached Salford, but finished on the far bank of the Irwell. The Manchester Bolton and Bury started almost opposite, on the Salford side, so never reached Manchester. While the Salford Bolton and Bury would have sounded perhaps a little provincial, the Manchester and Manchester Junction Canal would probably not have attracted many investors. Parts of the M&SJ still exist, though waterless- one lock in the basement of a hotel, and one stretch under the former Manchester Central Station (now GMEX) that was at one time used for television studios. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 25 Mar 13 - 08:41 AM I've learned even more! Having lived in or around Salford and Manchester all my life until now I was surprised to hear about the Salford and Manchester Junction Canal! I googled it and found it was abandoned in 1922. Seems to have been superseeded by the Manchester Ship Canal. Thanks for the reference, Tatie:-) I think tne old canal referenced in the song though is probably the Manchester, Bolton and Bury which had it's start around the same place as tne gasworks in Salford. Cheers DtG |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Tattie Bogle Date: 25 Mar 13 - 06:29 AM Ooooo, sorry janemick, bl""dy predictive text on iPad! |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Tattie Bogle Date: 25 Mar 13 - 06:27 AM Salford is on the Salford and Manchester Junction Canal: gues that makes it nautical then? (See jane muck on 9th March) I have been on narrow boat trips on the Union Canal in Scotland, where we sang.....sea and fishing songs, shanties, nautical disaster songs, etc, despite there only being 3 FT of water under us! Don't think we did Dirty Old Town, though! |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:16 PM That led me to an interesting discovery, Ray. Graham Nash, although hailing from Salford, was actually born in Blackpool where his mother was evacuated to in 1942. Amazing what you learn:-) Cheers DtG |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: GUEST,Ray Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:20 AM Famous singers from Salford? As well as Graham Nash, what about Arthur Wakefield! In fact, Mr Nash and Mr Wakefield have something in common. Besides both being singers, of sorts, they shared a desk at primary school. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Mar 13 - 05:25 AM Me too - didn't stop some of my mates in Liverpool years ago joining in my chorus with "Dirty old man, dirty old man" Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: GUEST Date: 24 Mar 13 - 05:18 AM I agree with you Jim. As I said my mum hated the song. However the song makes me feel quite nostalgic about it and it has been in my repertoire for a long time. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: MGM·Lion Date: 24 Mar 13 - 04:47 AM "Here in Brittany they are convinced it is a sea-song and nothing we can say will dissuade people from this belief," janemick wrote on 9 March. I queried this at the time; and can still not see what they could possibly mean by this. Can anyone cast any light on such an odd-sounding interpretation? ~M~ |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Uncle Tone Date: 24 Mar 13 - 03:02 AM RT makes reference to Dirty Old Town in his intro to 'Salford Sunday'. Salford Sunday Tone |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:34 AM Perhaps it's a reference to Buffalo, New York? Or would that be "Filthy Old Town?"? |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Jim I Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:47 PM Referring to janemick's post of 9th March. The Irish group I used to be in played at the Roscoff St Patrick's Festival for a couple of years and I remember the crowd in one of the bars always wanted us to sing Dirty Old Town. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 23 Mar 13 - 05:12 PM one of the nice things about folk clubs is that quite likeable people can sings you don't much care for. And this can make you listen to songs that maybe you wouldn't listen to, and you get to see the strengths of a song that initially you didn't appreciate. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Mar 13 - 04:16 PM "My mum used to hate the song." Pity - it's a good song and has been for a long, long time. I detest 'Liverpool Barrow Boy' which I think is not a particularly good song - and I was born and brought up there. Did you know that Fredrick Engles based much of his 'Conditions of the Working Class in England' on his study of Salford? Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: GUEST Date: 23 Mar 13 - 04:08 PM I grew up in Salford . My mum used to hate the song . When she heard the spinners sing it I can remember her getting really irrate and saying "I bet they've never been to Salford." As a child I can remember watching the steam trains and seeing the firebox glow at night. My main memory of New Year's Eve was hearing the sirens of the ships on the docks at midnight. Earlier in the thread famous Salfordiands are mentioned. One I haven't seen mentioned is Graham Nash. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: GUEST,Rev Bayes Date: 23 Mar 13 - 11:11 AM Whoosh! |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Dave Hanson Date: 23 Mar 13 - 10:31 AM That would be ' Jimmy Miller ' then. Dave H |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:44 AM "Jimmy Millar," Don't think so - I think it was written by Ewan MacColl - or maybe it was Robert Zimmermann!! Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Uncle Tone Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:06 AM In general terms, this is a good thread about what we used to call, 'The Folk Process'..... how the words of a song are adapted to a singer's preferences, memory, or dodgy hearing. I particularly liked 'Dirty Ardoyne'. Thanks for a good discussion folks. Enjoyed it. Tone |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: GUEST,Ray Date: 23 Mar 13 - 05:40 AM Can't admit to having read this thread but the first line is "I met my love on the gasworks croft"; or at least that was what the ex-Stockport resident, Jimmy Millar, originally wrote. I seem to remember the Dubliners singing "gasworks wall" on the TV a while back so that might have added to the confusion. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: GUEST,Guest Date: 22 Mar 13 - 04:41 PM I've never come across a thread this long!!!! I only wanted to check whether the first line should end in 'croft' or 'wall'! Amazing how it has stirred such emotions .. :) |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Mar 13 - 11:47 AM Why, janemick? What is the remotest bit nautical or maritime about it, to afford the Bretons such a conviction? ~M~ |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: janemick Date: 09 Mar 13 - 08:48 AM Here in Brittany they are convinced it is a sea-song and nothing we can say will dissuade people from this belief. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Paul Burke Date: 17 Mar 12 - 07:52 PM I thought I'd posted this earlier, but perhaps it didn't take... According to Engineering Toolbox, the typical components of coal gas as produced in the Liverpool Road Gasworks of DOT fame (and every other gasworks in the country) were roughly: CO2 3.8% CO 28.4% CH4 0.2% H2 17.0% N 50.6% Note that useless (as a fuel) carbon dioxide and nitrogen make up over half the composition. That's an unwelcome, if unavoidable, result of roasting coal in air with its preponderance of nitrogen. If my memory plays right, there was also a touch of hydrogen sulphide in the air around Liverpool Street, Cross Lane and Regent Road. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Tattie Bogle Date: 17 Mar 12 - 07:42 PM Sorry, Dick, I stand corrected: it burns (oxidises) to CO2, but as Noreen has said, it only constitutes 8% of coal gas, the rest being hydrogen and methane. So Carbon monoxide on its own is not coal gas, but part of it. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: dick greenhaus Date: 17 Mar 12 - 01:53 PM Carbon Monoxide is certainly combustible. Known as Coal Gas, it was the mainstay fuel for gas cookstoves until natural gas became available. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Tattie Bogle Date: 17 Mar 12 - 12:45 PM "CO is certainly combustible"?? - really??? CO (carbon monoxide) is the result of incomplete combustion of methane CH4 which was one of the constituents of coal gas (as detailed by Noreen in 2008). Complete combustion in a proper oxgen supply generates CO2 - carbon DIoxide: less poisonous, but you can still get CO2 narcosis. Yes, CO does bind to haemoglobin very tightly, preventing oxygen transfer and binding, whereas carbon dioxide is much more easily displaced by oxygen to form oxyhaemaoglobin. The "Dirty Old" bit apllies to the blackening by soot (carbon particles) of everything in the area, as well as to any atmospheric pollution. It wasn't the only Dirty old Town - my home town was called "Auld Reekie" after all! |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: GUEST Date: 14 Mar 12 - 08:12 PM Greetings, I'm ten years too late with my response to this topic though I would have only been eight years old if I would be seeing this topic ten years ago. I think Clinton should respect the song more. I always get tears in my eyes when I hear Dirty Old Town though I never knew what the meaning was until now, making it even more beautiful than it was. My city is getting the axe right now and is built into a bright city though the old industrial factories are declared monuments. Just wanted to share this to show my affection to Dirty Old Town. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: GUEST,Meow! Date: 20 Dec 10 - 04:01 PM i'm a high school student from NJ (USA) and i was doing a report on this song. i just wanted to say thank you very much to you all for the help. my great grandmother used to sing this to me and i never knew the meaning. this is one of the best songs i've heard and the lyrics flow perfectly. the fact that he wrote this in such short time is amazing! thanks again:) |
Subject: dirty old town From: GUEST,ken Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:48 PM It was "salford wind" which was orignally sung, but was changed to represent such the universality of the poor. I lived in broughton, an area in Salford where Mccoll was born and known by many in the town. Areaght? |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Ebbie Date: 02 Sep 10 - 02:05 AM I just now listened to Luke Kelly on YouTube sing Dirty Old Town (1976). He introduced it as a love song written for a town. He didn't mention its author but he did say it was Salford. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: MGM·Lion Date: 02 Sep 10 - 12:25 AM >And here's a picture of some unreconstructed gasometers - and you see what Gus Allen meant. "For mountains they would very nicely pass."< Interests of accuracy ~~ Gus ELEN [pronounced 'Eel-en']: music-hall song "If it wasn't for the 'ouses in between" [1899], words Eugene Bateman, music George le Brunn, sung by said Mr Elen, distinguished m-h performer of the time, known also particularly for "The Postman's Holiday" and "It's a great big shame"... I sing [a shortened version] of "The 'ouses in between", and intend to put it up on my Youtube channel shortly. Watch this space! ~Michael~ |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Paul Burke Date: 01 Sep 10 - 01:02 PM Yes, CO is certainly combustible, and also poisonous- it binds to the haemoglobin in the blood, preventing it from picking up oxygen. And it burns, which is why people put their head in the gas oven. As a child (in Salford as it happens) I was traumatised by hearing of someone killing herself in this way- I thought the oven was lit, and she baked herself to death. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: dick greenhaus Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:53 AM Some notes, after re-reading the thread: Carbon Monoxide is certainly combustible, The errors listed for the MacColl Songbook have been corrected in the new edition. Dirty Old Town may have been written about Salford, but it's pretty damn universal. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: GUEST,Briceida Santiafo Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:17 PM Sick and Psychotic! |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: GUEST,Ex Salford Guest Date: 13 Apr 09 - 08:43 PM Well well well, I never thought I would read a thread as long as this in it's entirity ,but I did. I was born and raised in Salford and remember the town before "Salford precinct" or "Salford shopping city" as it is now known. Cross lane the road leading down too the Docks was famous for having about 40 pub's within a mile, and you can imagine the sort of people that ran them,hard types with a gentle side,and some of the women that frequented ,you can guess their trade........one of them " Vinegar Vera" is STILL famous in the area if you want more info on her go to www.kersalflats.co.uk and check out the people Tab you will find the king of girl Salford used to produce,picture on there as well. Someone mentioned it being at one time the most populated area in Europe I believe he was correct,nearly 250,000 population in 1931 now down to 72,000. I went to school with the nephew of Harold Riley and through him met Harold and a cedrtain Mr L S Lowry. Unfortunately one of the main employers in the area was The PIT Agecroft colliery, I made damn certain i wasn't going down that hell hole when I was in my last year at school by applying to join The Royal Air Force 6 months before the rest of the lads in our year did ! Thankfully I was accepted. I left at 16 and have rarely been back ,I am now 52,but, I am still a Salford lad. I went a few years ago to a funeral and met cousins and old friends i hadn't seen for years, to be met by "How do " a Salfordian shortened version of "How do you do?" after a short time one of my cousins commented " By heck,you aren't half posh now aren't you?" as far as I know I still have my Salford accent !!!! The ships at the Docks certainly did sound at midnight New Years Eve and we used to listen to them herald the New Year and as kids loved it,all gone now as the Docks are salford quays. Best rendition of the song in Temple Bar , Dublin , I think it was sort of adopted by some of the Irish lads that worked in the Manchester are as labourers ,made their money and went back home.As the singer introduced the song he said " here's a song you may recognise which a lot of people think is about Dublin,but was actually written about Salford" so even though The Dubliners made it a very famous song it still gets introduced as a Salford song. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:52 AM I think that is what was written by Ewan, Mark. D. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: GUEST,Mark Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:33 AM The lyric I have always heard, which I presume to be correct is: "Smelled the spring on the smoky wind". |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: GUEST Date: 13 Jul 08 - 12:38 PM i am a canadian folksinger who grew up in the '50's and '60's and have just found and learned "Dirty Old Town" ... my sister and brother in law were visiting from Galway a couple of weeks ago ... the brother in law, John, gave me a number of cd's, one being 'Luke Kelly the Collection'containing the song as a version learned from Ewan ... being of Scot/Irish descent and my dad having been a coalminer in stellerton nova scotia, the imagery is easy for me to see ... i remember as a boy visiting my granparents in westville and stellerton and seeing them as dirty old towns ... the coaldust was everywhere and still burned in most of the homes... in winter the snow was black ... also even though our family has been here since the late 1700's i had heard the term 'croft' and not known what it was ... i am so happy to have found this site with the truth of the song ... i've always tried to sing songs as i believe they were origionaly written ... i just learned the song this morning and will be able to sing it, with confidence knowing where it came from ... dave macpherson |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: GUEST,Paula Flanagan Kesteloot Date: 21 Apr 08 - 04:16 PM I live in France, and was born in Salford, the town described in Dirty Old Town . If you knew what Salford used to look like you would understand the lyrics more. Another Salford song is Matchstalk men etc.. (can't remember the title) which is about the factory & Salford street scenes painted by Lowry. They belong together. This is Salford's history and nobody else can try to claim it. Here in France the men of the dirty old town (The Salford Pals) lie in soldiers' cemeteries around Thiepval and Authuille on the Somme. The song will be sung for them. Das Lied beschreibt meine Heimatstadt. Es handelt sich um Salford. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: ard mhacha Date: 21 Apr 08 - 09:51 AM The song captures perfectly the smoky old towns in the north of England, I worked in a few of those towns during the late 1950s through the 60s. The song brings me back,and the memories are of happy times being young and fit, you didn`t care,smoke?what smoke?, nowts the bother. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: GUEST,lox Date: 21 Apr 08 - 09:16 AM Each line conjures up more than just the image it literally describes. eg "I'm gonna make me a big sharp axe - shining steel tempered in the fire" Why an axe? literally it makes no sense ... shining steel? tempered in the fire? why all that information? Well because it conjures up images of foundries, molten metal and hard industrial work - as was typical of the region. The song is deeply descriptive and each word carries a descriptive subtext that goes deeper than even just physical description. This is lyrical impressionism that describes the writers subjective experience of the town from an emotional point of view and has as its lens a love affair. It is meant less to be about salford specifically than about human experience in an industrial town, hence iits abilty to mean something profound and beautiful to folks in such diverse places as sydney and dublin. If you're looking for literal descriptions, buy a car manual. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: GUEST,Gaffer Date: 21 Apr 08 - 08:37 AM I recall a review years back in a national daily - ?Guardian perhaps - of a Pogues concert in Salford of all places in which the reviewer described it a song written about "their native Dublin" - I'm sure a Dublin reviewer would be slower to accuse "Cockles and Mussels" of being from anyone's native Salford! Gaffer |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Apr 08 - 10:35 AM Thanks. Noreen:-) When will we see you back in Salford again? The song's evolved and is evolving still - on this thread. D. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: GUEST,Noreen Date: 19 Apr 08 - 09:26 AM >...coal gas was essentially Carbon Monoxide... Carbon monoxide itself is non-combustible, but is a byproduct (along with cyanogens, sulphur compounds and other nasties) of the distillation of coal. Coal gas contains approximately 50% hydrogen, 35% methane and 8% carbon monoxide. You can still gas yourself with 'natural' gas, but it works more by displacement of oxygen from the air you are breathing rather than by poisoning. Nice song, Dave! |
Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? From: Amos Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:15 PM Dave: No, it isn't, but it's a good performance!! If you look back over the Song Challenge Threads you will find the record in there somewhere. I think it was four minutes, or something. A |
Share Thread: |
Subject: | Help |
From: | |
Preview Automatic Linebreaks Make a link ("blue clicky") |