Origin or title of House of the Rising Sun?

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Apr 00 - 02:31 PM

I'd like to know, too, where this actually came from. I read somewhere that a red lantern was standard at whorehouses and was referred to as "the rising sun"... hence the term red-light district. This may be one of those things that's been handed down and around so many times that its origins have been forgot. --------------Kim

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Ritchie
Date: 03 Apr 00 - 12:51 PM

Check out Snakefarms version, which along with some other great versions of other 'old' songs on their recent cd release. In my humble opinion a contender for the cd of the year in what was 1999. Funnily enough another contender, by Wyclef Jean, has a song which has the same tune as 'the house...' on.

Ritchie.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: GUEST, A.C.
Date: 03 Apr 00 - 05:43 AM

Hymn? Where did you do this, Alison, Belfast?

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: alison
Date: 03 Apr 00 - 05:12 AM

Another hymn..... we used to do "There is a green hill far away".. to 'House of the Rising sun".....

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Bugsy
Date: 03 Apr 00 - 05:02 AM

Interesting to note that the two earliest versions I heard, I think by Woody Guthrie and Huddie Ledbetter were both in a Major key as opposed to the more modern versions which are in a Minor.

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Apr 00 - 01:51 AM

Dylan had an interesting version on Freewheelin'.

A friend from New Orleans told me the name "Rising Sun" was an intentional play on words. The establishment was popular among the fairly well-to-do gentlemen of the city, and it was traditional for them to take their sons there for their first taste of sin, hence "House of the Rising Son".

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: WyoWoman
Date: 03 Apr 00 - 01:32 AM

I really hate to mention this, because it will stay with you forever, but you can also sing any of Emily Dickinson's poems to this tune.

Heart we will forget him,
You and I tonight

or
I heard a fly buzz -when I died,
The stillness in the room
Was like the stillness in the air
Between the heaves of storm
etc.
(Of course, you can also do House of the Rising Sun and any of Dickinson's poetry to the tune of "Yellow Rose of Texas," too, but why mention that?

WW

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: GUEST,Megan
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 09:56 PM

I looked up "Rounders Luck" on the internet and came up with a site entitled - House Of The Rising Sun:

http://www.willy.msk.ru/music/willy1.html

Anyone speak Russian?

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of a Russian to English translator on microsoft word.
Anyone?

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Caitrin
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 09:09 PM

You can also do "Amazing Grace" to this tune. Very odd-souding. "House of the Rising Sun" sounds even stranger to the tune of "Amazing Grace", though. : )

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 08:45 PM

Relying upon memory and speaking before checking this thing out, but I believe the House of the Rising Sun was recorded by the Callahan brothers back in the 20's under the title of Rounder's Luck.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 07:41 PM

Caroline and I love Hally Wood's singing of this song on either her Elektra 10 inch LP Oh Lovely Appearance of Death or her Stinson record, also a 10 inch LP, Texas Folksongs. Great singing! Unaccompanied.

I collected a splendid version from William Harrison Burnett in Fayetteville, Arkansas, in 1963. He had learned it from a fellow migrant apple picker, if memory serves, decades before. I'll have to check my field recording for more complete information, but I want to do that anyway, since I plan to use his singing of it on my next Ballads and Songs of Tradition CD.

I would assume it is a "trad." number, but be careful about duplicating anyone's popular arrangement, which is surely held by the Animals (was it?) or Leadbelly, or their respective publishing companies. You might be able to prove that the song is older and p.d., but I'm afraid the arrangement is not.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 04:34 PM

The image of the "rising sun" was a common one in 18th century America--as a motif in furniture design, for example. There's a well known story of Benjamin Franklin looking at the design on the back of a chair at the Continental Congress (or was it the Constitutional Convention?) and deciding that it was of a rising sun rather than a setting one.

The image of the rising sun gave its name to a tavern in Northeastern Maryland--now the town of Rising Sun, MD.

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 12:06 PM

probably true, Rick. It is also possible the original author, or early contributors to te song, had more than one place in mind when they wrote it.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 12:00 PM

I think, like the "Loch Ness Monster" and "Roswell N.M." the locals in New Orleans (and tourist bureaus everywhere) are very happy to have as many "authentic" Houses Of the Rising Sun as possible. Just good business. Not saying the ones' mentioned AREN'T authentic though. Wonderful song.

Rick

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 11:52 AM

... by the way, the folk song book in which I found the older/alternative melody was, I believe, and Alan Lomax collection (released in the early/mid 60's). I heard this was the version Woody Guthrie sang ... but I could not confirm that myself.

Myabe I'll try the old version again ... see if audiences respond any differently now-a-days.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 11:49 AM

I learned this song from a folk music collection my guitar teacher had me using when I was a kid. It had a different melody than the pop version, and in fact I learned before the pop version came out (it's been that long since I was a kid). The old version still has merit, but I find audiences are not swayed - they want the pop melody, although they'll accept a wide variety of arrangement. It's a good song.

I must say, in my travels I was amazed to see the popularity it has in the karaoke bars of China. It was a favorite in Beijing, Chensha, and other PRC cities I visited ... ranking right up there with Unchained Melody and I Did it My Way! Who'd a thunk it???

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Abby Sale
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 10:50 AM

I'm sure the claim that it has roots in 'The Unfortunate Rake' is a confusion with "St James Infirmary (and/or) Hospital" & "Bad Girl's Lament."

If any want to check DejaNews, there were several long threads on it in rec.music.folk . We evoked much of the ultimate European roots or text & motif and the likelihood that the Rising Sun was an image - a rising sun mirror, perhaps, and common on back to France.

I got interested in the song as the spouse & I managed the building on Rampart St., a flop hotel at the time, in 1966. There was good evidence this was the actual building. Far better evidence (police lore, etc) than could be produced by the _other_ two cheap hotels making the claim.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 10:03 AM

G'day,
Well Dani, in that vein you can also fit the 23rd psalm to the tune. Whether you should or not I don't know.........

Cheers,
Alan

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Dani
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 09:12 AM

An interesting (to me, anyway) note: You can sing "O, Little Town of Bethlehem" to this tune. Done on acoustic guitar, it's lovely.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Stubs
Date: 17 Jan 99 - 06:34 PM

It's hard to remember, but I think there was some dialogue regardng the famous House on an old Steve Goodman album (interview?). This was to the effect that its music had evolved from "Greensleeves" as well as that to "Streets of Laredo" and "St. James Infirmary", brought to America by Irish immigrants(This might help to date it). The dialogue then progressed to a rendition of a medley of those songs, all using the tune to "Greensleeves", an enjoyable combination which I have adapted to my own songlist. As well, I recall a sixties reference, origin long forgotten,which primarily dealt with "Sloop John B" and its origin as a sailors' ribald sing-a-long but also mentioned "House of the Rising Sun" because each of them had over one hundred and fifty known verses! Each one likely had a different writer. Public domain? No problem!

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: mm
Date: 17 Jan 99 - 04:44 PM

Brothels were and are often nicknamed rather than officially named. I doubt it would have been in a street directory.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From:
Date: 16 Jan 99 - 09:52 PM

I would assume that The Rising Sun would have been the name of a tavern-cum-whorehouse, or perhaps just a low sort of tavern where the flash girls hung around plying their trade. (Perhaps, being in New Orleans, it was a reference to the face in the shape of a brilliant sun that was the symbol of King Louis XIV, "The Sun King"?) The Rising Sun would have been a good name for a whorehouse, because that is what the rake would have seen in the guilty dawn. Up here they tended to use red lights.

I wonder if anyone has gone through old directories or newspapers to determine if there was ever such an establishment in New Orleans. I have a hunch that The Rising Sun might have been a common name for taverns in the last century -- certainly there are pubs in England called "The Sun".

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: rick fielding
Date: 16 Jan 99 - 12:06 PM

Leadbelly's version of "House of.." which he called "Way Down in New Orleans" is an amazing performance and I urge mudcatters who haven't heard it to hunt it down. (sorry I can't recall which collection it's in) The guy was just so original, it blows me away to this day.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From:
Date: 16 Jan 99 - 11:56 AM

According to the booklet accompanying the Electra "Folk Box" anthology from 1964, Rising Sun has its roots in a 16th century English ballad, 'The Unfortunate Rake'. It is also related to 'The Cowboy's Lament' (Streets of Laredo). The song, itself, they date to the WWI period.

John

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Allan S,
Date: 16 Jan 99 - 11:10 AM

Is that Rising SUN or SON ? Sorry I couldnt resist the pun :-}

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Dave T
Date: 16 Jan 99 - 08:43 AM

Along with the Leadbelly & Eric Burden versions, Doc Watson does one ("The Essential Doc Watson, Vol 1 & 2" and also on "Portrait"). The title is Risin' Sun Blues and Doc apparently learned it from Clarence Ashley. Before I heard this, I had always assumed Leadbelly wrote it. I think I have to agree with Joe that it's probably public domain.
Dave T

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Lesley N.
Date: 16 Jan 99 - 01:17 AM

The GEF says the authorities shut the House of the Rising Son down, though it oesn't say when. I'm surprised there aren't several claiming to be "THE" House, given the commercial possibilities - even if they couldn't openly indulge in the same trade.

I believe the folklore that grows up around a song is often as entertaining as the music. Hence though we'll never prove David Rizzio wrote either The Lass of Patie's Mill or Broom of Cowdenknows I think it's remiss of folklorists not to mention that is one of the rumors around the tunes. Of course that's not quite the same as giving an address for a brothel!

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Ronn Gilbert
Date: 16 Jan 99 - 01:04 AM

Lead Belly did record a song called "In New Orleans" which had similar words, but the tune was much different.

Various guidebooks for New Orleans make reference to a building reputed to be the original Rising Sun, but none state that any proven factual link has been made. Wishful thinking, probably.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: WillWill (inactive)
Date: 13 Jan 99 - 10:53 PM

Huddie Ledbetter also recorded a version of the song, though I'm not sure when.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Lesley N.Lesley N.
Date: 13 Jan 99 - 06:56 PM

Supposedly the "house" was a brothel on Rampart Street in New Orleans. There was a different tune by the same title that was popular in the "gay 90's". This from brief notes in the Golden Encyclopedia of Folk Music.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 13 Jan 99 - 03:48 AM

I heard a radio interview last year with Eric Burden of the Animals. Older 'Catters will remember the band had a hit with the song in the sixties, so making the song famous where it wasn't already well known. Burden said he'd been to New Orleans not so long ago and was introduced to a woman who lived in the actual HOTRS, which I think is now a hotel or a private residence. She took him to the house and told him they'd found evidence to indicate that this was the actual original house in the song. There were lots of brothels in N.O. in those days (when? I don't know!), apparently, and this was, she said, famous in its day. I can't remember what it was that made them believe it was the house; maybe we can e-mail Eric Burden for more details?

Steve

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jan 99 - 01:37 AM

I had also heard that the Whore house had a motif of the rising sun above it's entrance way, hence it's name. Can't confirm anyof that though. Barry

Subject: RE: Origin or title of House of the Rising Sun
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 99 - 12:11 AM

Hi, Murph - the earliest printed version I could find was in the 1941 John & Alan Lomax book Our Singing Country. They call it The Rising Sun Blues. They had no certain information about the history of the song, but said it appeared to be "fairly old as blues tunes go." I guess it's safe to say it's in the public domain.
It was recorded in 1941 by the Almanac Singers, and is available on their The Complete General Recordings CD on MCA, MCAD-11499. Also recorded by the Weavers, and by Eric Burdon and the Animals.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: Origin or title of
From: Murph
Date: 12 Jan 99 - 11:40 PM

Can anybody tell me the original title & origin if this song? Is it public domain? Thanks. Great website!

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