BS: The Atheist Delusion

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:22 PM

"...some equate believing that God will the reward the killing of innocents with believing that children should be brought up in their parents faith.

Can you broaden out a bit on that....IMO, its kinda hard to understand..

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:18 PM

'Undecided' can also mean 'couldn't care less'..
If so, I suspect they aren't post'in:)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:17 PM

Two people in these discussions are consistently arguing, in a nutshell, that Atheists are all the same in that they are always logical and that they are always right. Evidence on these threads alone shows a fairly broad range of atheist opinion. The differences mostly being in the logic used, the certainty inherent in attacks and who and what percentage of the believing world they are willing to attack.

For example some equate believing that God will the reward the killing of innocents with believing that children should be brought up in their parents faith. The mistakenly cling to unfounded beliefs that the latter leads to the former.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:15 PM

'Undecided' can also mean 'couldn't care less'..

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:10 PM

"it's possible to be undecided"

Is that not the third category, the Agnostic? From what I read, many may be on one extreme edge of being Agnostic anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:07 PM

I think the degrees of Atheism depend more on the Atheist's passion about religion.

I'll accept 'passion about atheism', but it would be degrees of passion rather than degrees of atheism. Somewhere there has to be a line between belief and not-belief, though admittedly it's possible to be undecided.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:07 PM

"Unfortunately there are people who believe in one god and yet none of the hundreds of others"

Some, and my wish would be most, see them all wrapped up into one. So, it does not really matter what human name or face you put on each, or which version you follow. The basic messages are quite similar, anyway.

It's kind'a like there are many different versions of a hamburger, to dumb it down to a more understandable concept :).

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:03 PM

"Bill D and Amos being the main exceptions to the rule."

Tweedledum & Tweedledumber?

I 'think' I am flattered...not sure about Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 12:59 PM

I think the degrees of Atheism depend more on the Atheist's passion about religion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 12:52 PM

So far as I can see, one either believes in gods or one doesn't. Unfortunately there are people who believe in one god and yet none of the hundreds of others. I suppose that could be regarded as a different 'degree of atheism', as a true atheist wouldn't believe in any of them, on an equal basis.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 11:00 AM

Would you care to list them?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 10:40 AM

I believe that there are many degrees of Atheism beyond simply not believing there is a god.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 10:30 AM

I thought Hirohito's gang were Shintoist, Frank, not Buddhist?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 10:18 AM

One of the points that seem to be overlooked here is that there are degrees of atheism as there are degrees of any theism. An atheist at the most extreme point of the continuum
doesn't believe in any deity. Again, it's the religionists that want to paint everything with an absolute brush. I never contended that organized religion was "evil" because that is a religious term coming from a Manichean view. I would say that it is dysfunctional to a healthy society.

Buddhism is a religion and there are some harmful parts as witnessed by Japan's Hirohito in WWII. One thing that can be said about religion in its totality that it is harmful. There are benign aspects to it such as one can find with tumors in the body.

Organized religion(s) vary in their toxicity. Atheism at its extreme point allows for no deity. The reason that atheists are often extreme is that they find themselves defending their position against intolerant religionists and hence you have the raison d'etre for the title of this thread. It is a reaction to the idea that religion is a delusion, (So's your old man) and makes little sense as a point of discussion.

It wasn't religion that gave rise to inspirational music and art. It was inspired musicians and artists who would have been inspired regardless of the limitations place on them by clerics, priests and preachers.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 09:25 AM

Of course I know I can't expect people who don't sing any of the wonderful variety of religious music that exists to understand this in the slightest.
You wouldn't want me singing this music but I assure you I sing along to my CDs of it lustily all the time. I appreciate that getting involved with the singing may give you insights that non-performers may not perhaps get so easily, but if the only way to understand this music is by singing it I really have to wonder what the point is of your performing it in front of an audience at all. Clearly, you think you're casting pearls before swine.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 09:04 AM

Ron, are you saying that being an atheist would cause people to not like or not sing great classical music that has a religious theme? Are you saying that great master composers would have composed worse music if they weren't writing about Christianity? Where do you get this stuff?

Enjoy your performances, it sounds like fun. As soon as you're caught up, be sure to come back and explain your idea that there is some connection between atheism and mass atrocity. Also, let us know why the allegedly atheist Hitler used so many religious reference in his speeches. Don't forget!

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: andrew e
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 02:17 AM

Maybe a true atheist wouldn't have anything to say in this discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:56 AM

So what are the favourites of others? Through my own struggles and messes, I Heard the voice of Jesus say seems to mean something.

Read the words to Calon Lan here and I love something about it.


To my surprise. Cerys Mattews while ommitting vere 2 does it nicely here

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 11:51 PM

I have a concert coming up Sunday-- and lots of rehearsals for it this week.   And yes, it is heavily religious music---though there are at least two good pieces which are not.

So I have very little time for Mudcat below the line right now,.

I don't have to believe a word of what I sing in order to be eternally grateful to organized religion--especially Christianity-- for having inspired such a wealth of sublime music.   And to answer anybody who actually advocated that the world would have been better off without religion, I feel that the loss to choral music and vocal music in general would be a overwhelmingly huge reason to reject that idea. (Among other reasons, of course).

Of course I know I can't expect people who don't sing any of the wonderful variety of religious music that exists to understand this in the slightest.

But that does not diminish the power of this argument in the slightest.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:52 PM

Darwin was agnostic.   I don't think anybody denies that--I certainly haven't--actually I noted this in another thread.   He was not atheist. Nor was Einstein--as is clear from the vast majority of his writings.

So what, Ron? These chaps were working scientists, not theologians or philosophers. They have interesting views but they carry no more weight on this particular topic than anyone else's. Add to that that they were very much men of their times, and who knows? Had they lived today they may well have been atheists. But I doubt that anyone really cares, except you. When it comes to relativity or evolution, I bow down to these blokes. On all other topics I can think for myself.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:38 PM

Ron, are you with us? Your opening post puts forth the theory that the alleged atheism of a few totalitarians caused them to commit atrocities. If you are drawing a link between atheism and atrocity, please tell me why I'm not out killing people by the truck load. Either atheism makes people go crazy and kill others, or it doesn't. Which is it? If the atrocities were not directly related to atheism, what's your point?

Oh, and I'd still like your response to all the religious quotes from Hitler's speeches that Little Hawk posted on the other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:38 PM

Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.

~Adolph Hitler

The heaviest blow which ever struck humanity was Christianity; Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew."

- Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, trans., (Oxford, 1953), Hitler's Table-Talk, p. 7

"The law of selection justifies this incessant struggle, by allowing the survival of the fittest. Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."

- Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, trans., (Oxford, 1953), Hitler's Table-Talk, p. 51



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:13 PM

Darwin was agnostic.   I don't think anybody denies that--I certainly haven't--actually I noted this in another thread.   He was not atheist. Nor was Einstein--as is clear from the vast majority of his writings.

In fact the overwhelming majority of sensible, well-adjusted people, have been either religious or agnostic.   Not atheist.

Bitter individuals, on the other hand have a more than healthy representation among the ranks of atheists.   Twain, for instance, as he became more bitter, became more atheist.

And in fact some of our illustrious Mudcatters also fit the pattern--Bill D and Amos being the main exceptions to the rule.   

Interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 07:57 PM

Ron, are you with us? Your opening post puts forth the theory that the alleged atheism of a few totalitarians caused them to commit atrocities. If you are drawing a link between atheism and atrocity, please tell me why I'm not out killing people by the truck load. Either atheism makes people go crazy and kill others, or it doesn't. Which is it? If the atrocities were not directly related to atheism, what's your point?

Oh, and I'd still like your response to all the religious quotes from Hitler's speeches that Little Hawk posted on the other thread.

I know your standard operating procedure is to say outrageous things and then disappear for a couple of days and then come back and say them all over again, completely ignoring all the rebuttals that other folks gave. I'm tired of it. Please continue the conversation like an adult.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 09:36 AM

Nah, there was that bloke in One Million Years BC. Y'know, Racquel's boyfriend, that one. I didn't see a crucifix round his neck, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 04:06 AM

Christians were among the earliest atheists because they didn't believe in the divinity of Caesar.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 08:22 PM

"Sorry Ed T, what was missing was just that I wanted to expand with my feelings. Bad phrasing by me.

No problem, I now understand...Thanks for that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 08:15 PM

Instead, we have a thread like this one which is reactive in nature and sheds no light on the views of anyone here.

But I've seen FAR more argumentative threads here on politics for example which go without that sort of comment - why?...

Views: which ones do you want Frank?

Gun toting Christians. I could not anyway in the UK but I am against carrying of weapons.

Abortion. In general I think it is wrong but I'm really stuck on the bringing of a kid with known deformities into this world. Would I (if strong enough) batter anyone over one? see next view.

Adultery. I think it is wrong. I once got stuck with a brother in a way I did not want. He had got into a love tangle was having a kid and asked me to stand by him whichever way he went. I didn't agree with his (initial - circumstances changed, the abortion did not happen) choices but I felt family support was the way.

Holy wars like getting in to Iraq and Afghanistan, I am very much against.

Believer, yes I feel certain on that one.

Failed believer, yes I've made more messes than I would care to mention.

Is this the sort of thing you mean this thread should contain?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:40 PM

I didn't see that confusion in Stringsinger's post at all. Have another look.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:33 PM

Stringsinger,

You seem to be confusing a belief in a God, (which seems to be most of your first definition) with belonging to an organized religion, specifically Christian, and possibly RC?

The way you confuse the two makes some of your concluding points puzzling? Even if organized religion is evil, that does not necessarily make a belief in a God, outside a religion (a group which I fall in) evil? BTW, some of the bad stuff you raise with organized religion is the reason I do not associate with any).

I suspect that not believing in an organized religion, or Christianity, does not make one an Atheist?

To add to the complexity, I do not believe Buddhists believe in a god? Would that make them Atheists?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:33 PM

I agree with all that. But it's important to make clear (at least in my view) that none of the ills and the evils associated with religion are arguments for atheism. Seeing idiots picketing abortion clinics and reading about widespread child abuse by priests, and all the rest, does nothing to "strengthen my atheism." I'm an atheist because I've reasoned that the "evidence" for the existence of God, and the arguments in favour of him, are all, ultimately, completely bogus. One day something better may come along, but until such times the God notion is not my concern in terms of how I live my life.

It would be nice to hear for once that, just because there have been some very nasty atheists, they don't form any part of the argument against atheism. I doubt we'll be granted such courtesy.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:21 PM

Those who purport to know atheists haven't made their case clear. Statements out of hand are simply opinions not based on fact or real knowledge because atheists have never been polled. Many arrive at this position for various reasons and not particularly out of anger or fear. That's a misunderstanding. Some are raised with it and others come to it later in life.

Actually, atheists I know are not angry or fearful but have found a kind of freedom and solace in their non-belief. They have been freed from the restrictive, authoritative and limiting views of the religious world and have learned to respect science even more as they rely on it for realistic evidence about how the world works. Actually they are free of delusions because they are faced with reality and realistic expectations of nature.

Many atheists think that religion is a choice that people have the right to make for themselves. They just don't agree with that choice for themselves. When the US government is faced with the forced Christianization of the military, the prayer breakfasts by elected officials, a criminal pope who hides child molesters, gun-toting jesus freaks, anti-abortion groups who terrorize clinics, and demands from preachers and priests to legislate in their behalf, then anyone can see why this issue is the gift that keeps on giving. There is nothing like contemporary religious practices to bring out the crazies. For this reason, those religious folk who are tolerant of those who may not share their beliefs are pushed into the shadows. Instead, we have a thread like this one which is reactive in nature and sheds no light on the views of anyone here.

If atheism is considered to be a delusion, then it must be said that a god-centered view of the world is sane. There is no evidence for this conclusion. The weight of evidence mounts daily that religion excuses violence, prejudice, child abuse, war, and lack of critical thinking as well as sheep-following of the pulpit. We have every reason to be
watchful about religious behavior which because of groups like the Tea Party who are out of control.

I don't think we can paint all religious people with the same brush, however. There are those who have their own personal belief systems and don't try to foist them on others.
There are some religious groups who attend to social issues with matters of conscience such as the Quakers. (Not many of these). But for the most part, what makes the papers and blogs are the religious nut-cases who claim to represent their respective religions.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:01 PM

Sorry Ed T, what was missing was just that I wanted to expand with my feelings. Bad phrasing by me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 04:52 PM

Sorry Jon.

So, what was missing in the statement you posted? Please explain.

I was making reference to the very brightest scientists in history, those who some referred to earlier posts (for example, Einstein). While your buddy may be smart when it comes to yeast, I would not expect he would make that list? Not yet, anyway. But, who knows where the future takes him?
:)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:56 PM

One old too many. I'm getting old, old.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:53 PM

Who argues with the dictionary?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:51 PM

Definition of Atheism/Atheist with no catches.

# Atheism is commonly defined as the position that there are no deities. It can also mean the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. A broader definition is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.
# someone who denies the existence of god
# related to or characterized by or given to atheism; "atheist leanings"

None of these is correct, not by a long chalk. Atheists don't assert that there are no deities. They say that, taking into account what's expected of a deity (that he must break all the rules of physics, be far more complex than the complexities he's supposed to explain, and must reveal himself in an incontrovertible manner so as to leave evidence once and for all for his existence), atheists have decided that the chances of his existence are minimal. No denial, no lack, no absence of belief (whatever that means). We look at the notion put forward, examine the pros and cons and reach a conclusion as to whether we should allow this proposed fellow to influence our lives. Atheists just say "no" at the end of all that. It's a process of reasoning. It involves no certainties. It doesn't need to. And I have no idea what "atheist leanings" are. Of course, I speak for myself, though I'm not expecting too many fellow atheists to come battering down my door. Not in a big way anyway.

Plenty of people of faith think about the big questions and have used reason to choose it. Perhaps Jon is one of them. I know I am, I think about and re-evaluate what I believe constantly.

No-one's denying that many people of faith have arrived at their position by reasoning (though we also know that huge numbers have arrived there simply because they were told what to believe). The argument of atheists is not that thinking believers lack reason, but that they have based their reasoning on false tenets. The challenge of atheists to believers is to tell us what tenets have formed the basis of their reasoning process. They usually aren't difficult to dismantle.

Plenty of Atheists are Atheists because they were raised into it or because some aspect of or person in their former faith invoked fear or anger in them.

Well, you can be raised in an atheist family (or, more likely, a faith-apathetic family) but still be influenced by the all-pervasive religion that surrounds us in schools, the media and in the street. The latter assertion, that there are hordes of militant atheists (I'm helpfully rewording Jacko's post because I know that's what he's getting at - track record an' all that) who are no more than bitter, twisted, resentful and angry ex-Christians is just a stock, old, worn-out, knackered, unimaginative and lazy old line that religion constantly likes to peddle. As with God, there is absolutely no evidence to support it. Unless believers know different and are going to give it to us. I won't be holding my breath.

Atheists come to their belief or lack of it by thought and reason is a dogma.

Someone else will have to tell me what this means. It appears to make no sense.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:30 PM

LH, amy have got myself a little confused there but

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"David himself calls Him 'Lord'; so in what sense is He his son?" And the large crowd enjoyed listening to Him

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:30 PM

Sorry, that GUEST was me

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:27 PM

"Atheism is FreeThought which doesn't allow for others to do thinking for them."   Hmm, That may have been the case a century ago, but is no longer the case.

Today, the vast majority of the folks who give any thought to organised religion are atheists, atheism is the new orthodoxy.



In these secular times, the thinkers who hold and argue for religious belief are the "free thinkers"

I am an atheist at this point in my life, I may not always be so, it is not a stance, it is just that I dont believe the magic stuff,or Santa, or the tooth fairy, or that Mr Obama can change America.

What other people choose to believe is non of my business, for some day I may find myself in need of their crutch.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:23 PM

>>The concept of "the Christ" or "the Saviour" actually predates Christianity, Jon<<

Well duh, he is the Messiah of the Old Testament. That message is in the New Testament dozens of times.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:07 PM

I've a feeling you would allow me to go biblical on that point, LH. As far as I can recall (am not a great bible reader) at one point Christ say's that David knew him. That would only be possible if Christ the Saviour pre dated Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 02:59 PM

The concept of "the Christ" or "the Saviour" actually predates Christianity, Jon. If such a thing as "the Christ" exists (and I think it may), it's eternal, and it supercedes the Christian religion or any other religion. They just attempt to describe it in their own cultural terms, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 02:47 PM

The main findings would likely be that these people spend their lives studying a complex and amazing universe, and, don't put much importance on focusing on whether there is or not a God.

I suspect something is missed there Ed T. And no, I'd agree it is not a searching for God as in (as I would like to find Christ properly) search for a religion but that some things at least for some very clever scientists will not add up by science alone.

My mate for example would not convert me into Christianity (a faith he does not have anyway) but in spite of everywhere he has been which as well as MOD stuff has included working on strains of yeast for a brewery and knowing more than I can imagine does point him to a something he can not put his finger on. As far as my tiny mind would understand it is a something needed for all to make sense. And this guy is (outside bipolar) the clearest most rational thinking, most scientific most analytic, etc. person I have ever known.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 02:00 PM

I am also a little tired of the inventor of Chongo Chimp telling me that I am wasting my time.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:58 PM

I guess I haven't explained myself well Jon. Frustration will do that.

I have found a lot of Atheists on these threads, though certainly by no means all, acting as if they have the monopoly on thought and reason and certainly implying that believers do not think and employ reason.

I am tired of reading that. I have said what I have to. Thank you all.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:47 PM

Hey, Jack?

Smile for a change!

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:44 PM

Plenty of people of faith think about the big questions and have used reason to choose it. Perhaps Jon is one of them. I know I am, I think about and re-evaluate what I believe constantly. Plenty of Atheists are Atheists because they were raised into it or because some aspect of or person in their former faith invoked fear or anger in them.

I think we can go too far that way too, Jack. We may come to different conclusions (and believe another is wrong) but while I may believe say a Christian trying to wrestle with evolution is in a harder position than an atheist who might simply and easily deny creation, I think people trying to think and reason from all sides is a reality. From your/my side one perhaps just gets snappy when one personally believes one from any other side can not have given thought to work out their own position?

--

interesting links Ed T btw.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:38 PM

One could argue to an eternity over what the beliefs of some of the world's past and present brilliantscientists were, whether they are based on reason, and if their views are important.

There is no doubt that one would find a wide range of views among these scientists, if you could accurately determine their personal views at all.

While these top scientists followed their intellects and scientific curiously to amazing discoveries, I suspect their intellect alone adds little new insight into the existence or lack of a God. The main findings would likely be that these people spend their lives studying a complex and amazing universe, and, don't put much importance on focusing on whether there is or not a God.

So, with relatively normal brainpower and todays resources available to us, IMO, it comes down to a personal belief...a belief reached by what each person has learned from family and friends, combined with our current reasoning, leads to each personal choice on what works for each person. This should not be confused with a lazy personal choice, accepted blindly, as some put forward in attempts to belittle a personal belief in a God.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:29 PM

Or you could either join in the conversation or sod off and mind your own business.