BS: The Atheist Delusion

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 08:14 PM

Please make damn sure it doesn't happen to you, Jon. Life's worth more than that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 07:45 PM

I hope it does not happen to me but I saw it once.

This part duplicates something I posted elsewhere. Poor old Alan. He was a WW11 navigator and could come to the house and declare "there was I, upside down flying my kite in the middle of the night". He came to cricket (he could off spin bowl btw( with us once and attacked cars on Llanwrst Bridge. He once tried to rip lights from Manchester airport runway . He once went to Ullupol then phone mum about ending it all

I'm afraid I fell out badly with him when he made some horrific sexual remarks about mum...

Only 2 locals went to his funeral but he did leave his memorials. A rock garden that may still exist (I live in Norfolk not Wales now) would say to me in memory of Alan. Also he planted some daffodils..

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 07:04 PM

why I turn to my enemy are not understood by me.

It's an addiction - if you can't handle it yourself, get professional help. I've watched several good mates drink themselves to death, and it aint pretty. No 'buts', do it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:34 PM

... and yes, you made sense. A bit of humility goes a long way and in moderation is an admirable quality.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:34 PM

substandard for understand was not bad above...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:31 PM

That is almost fine by me Smokwy and I substandard what you are saying - booze just pretends to by your friend but is your enemy is too well understood... Why I get successions of real witnessed events and why I turn to my enemy are not understood by me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:23 PM

I hope you don't mind some advice from a stranger, Jon, but concentrate on fixing your drink problem and you'll find many of your troubles behind you. We have to learn from our experiences, and drink can be a big obstacle in that process. Booze is not your friend, it's your enemy. Pack it in, or at least learn to control it with an iron fist.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:12 PM

I do not thik it is a beating up Smokey but I have been down that route.... These days I think it is more just recognising I'm not as smart as I'd like to think I am. It has not resolved my own "God Problems" or cured my drink problems but I think to believe one is not as wise as one might like to think is a step in the right direction.

Hope that makes sense.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:00 PM

Uh? That should be "Those who believe they are getting it right all the time are under the biggest delusion of all.. Don't beat yerself up, mate."

Sorry about that, but it illustrates my point :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 05:59 PM

Jon, who believe they are getting it right all the time are under the biggest delusion of all.. Don't beat yerself up, mate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 05:43 PM

Fair comment Smokey.

To me, the foundations are love God and love thy neighbour. But can I get that right all the while? No

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 05:39 PM

"there is plenty to the contrary for those willing to interpret it that way"

Almost any document can be viewed in many ways,some honorable, some less so, if you have a reason to interpret and use it as such

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 05:36 PM

I think there is a great difference between wanting to find your personal God and believing there is a real one out there and becoming part of what I think I'll describe as religious cults.

Very good point indeed, Jon. I'm not very convinced at all about the Bible though, it's far too open to interpretation to be universally useful. Despite it appearing to have some positive and beneficial content, there is plenty to the contrary for those willing to interpret it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 04:52 PM

Frank, I think there is a great difference between wanting to find your personal God and believing there is a real one out there and becoming part of what I think I'll describe as religious cults.

I think from personal trying to understand the bible if one could properly follow it, the former would make you peaceful and loving. The latter can be very dangerous/

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 03:57 PM

There are alternatives to one form of religion that do not include the atheist response.
For example, "Deism" which was not necessarily a Christian point-of-view. Many signers of the US Constitution were "Deists", not Christians. Thomas Jefferson for example.

Also, Tom Paine. In his "Age of Reason" he decries atheism as a "Deist". He also decries Christianity in the same paper.

Hitler may have had his own brand of religion which would not allow for atheism.
Hitler has made statements against atheism regardless of what one of his underlings said.

To try to divine what Hitler did or didn't espouse in the area of religion has to be equated
with the fact that this was a disturbed dysfunctional madman and can't be taken seriously as to any consistency in his belief patterns.

It is also true that the kirches (churches) functioned rather normally and were not outlawed by Hitler during his despotic reign of terror. Stalin was another matter.

If you measure the behavior historically of atheists compared to Christians or other forms of religion, they come up being rather benign comparatively in terms of the havoc they caused.

When one is imbued with a belief system, any grasping of straws to make their case is inevitable. The more it's defended without proof or actual fact, the more it appears to
border if not be outright fanaticism.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 12:07 PM

Ron, try as I might I can't figure out your connection between Hitler and atheism. If you're not saying that he committed atrocities because he was an atheist, then what are you saying? If you are saying he was a monster who also happened to be an atheist, what's the point? You're doing an unusually bad job of making any sense whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 11:59 AM

some would even try to deny that jon.but probably accept other less attested history.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 12:02 AM

That is an interesting question, Smokey. Personal POV would say I can though have tried am a failure ib all sorts of ways. Personal beleif now which is quite a different thing would sate God gave His only Son who got crucified, The only provable thing is there was a remarkable person at the right time and place.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 11:51 PM

"...I am a Catholic.."

Well, I suppose we have our answer as to the gullibility of atheists. It appears unlimited.

Can you prove that you are not an atheist?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 11:12 PM

I'm afraid you sound like the one with the vested interest, Ron..

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 11:02 PM

Ron, I'd suggest you give it a rest. For sure I think those that do not believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are mistaken. But there are ways of turning people further off rather than on.

I think most of us here agree the roots are really greed and desires of the flesh and religion can be used in a distorted way to encourage wrong things.

Carrying on as you are can only put people further from a belief in God (if that is to be their way) not encourage.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 10:20 PM

"...I am a Catholic.."

Well, I suppose we have our answer as to the gullibility of atheists. It appears unlimited.

Sure is interesting that none of our stalwart atheists has come up with an action--as opposed to words---in favor of religion, other than the Nazi-accepted version of it, which-- surprise, surprise-- is identical to Nazism.

And there are lots and lots of actions taken by Nazism against religion---some of which I've already detailed.    But don't worry, I'll be glad to give you more of them. Just have no time tonight.

Quite a few Germans were enthusiastic when Hitler took over--but as I've detailed, many also had reservations or fears.   Virtually all of them who applauded the Machtergreifung lived to regret it--(it was only a question of how long that took).   Some with their lives. Many religious people regretted it long before World War II started--in large part due to the 3rd Reich's attitude towards religion--which became progressively more obvious.

In fact Mudcat atheists are among the few people who seem totally clueless about it.   Gee, I wonder if that is because they have a vested interest in the question.   Nah, that couldn't be it. Of course not.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 01:14 PM

It makes you wonder why the Pope (JPII?) felt it necessary to apologise to the Jewish people for his church's part in the holocaust, or why the Vatican never banned 'Mein Kampf', or why they helped so many Nazis escape after the war.

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." A.H. (letter to Engel 1941)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 12:57 PM

Yes, Ron. You are redundant. Go over to the irrelevancy thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 05:23 AM

And the upshot of all this is...?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 09:48 PM

I suppose the question boils down to whether atheists have ever heard the word "propaganda" used in connection with Hitler.   Perhaps the concept of propaganda is unknown to atheists--paragons of clear thinking though they are, of course.   (Just ask them.)

If propaganda is a mystery to them, they would be advised to actually read at least one book on the 3rd Reich before further commenting on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 09:38 PM

"...goal was the removal..."

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 09:37 PM

"You should read what Hitler says about atheists."

Brilliant.

So the question becomes:   just how gullible are atheists?

If you believe what Hitler said in public, I have, as I said, several bridges to sell you.   Would you like your name embossed in gold or silver?    Your choice. I'll give you the account to send your payment to.



And as far as "Mein Kampf"--that was obviously a political manifesto.

A reasonable person--and that, more and more, seems to exclude most atheists-- would look at what Hitler actually did regarding religion. I have given some examples--but there are lots more.

I'm still patiently waiting for any evidence--direct quotes about actions taken by the 3rd Reich which contradict the fact that Hitler's ultimate goal was in the removal of religion from his "utopian" society. He was already well on the way, by substituting Nazi figures for Christian devotions.

Don't bother with quotes from his speeches or Mein Kampf---unless, as I say, you're interested in one of my bridges.   I assure you I can give you a real good deal.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 08:49 PM

John. want to give you a tune. Not sure I believe in rebellion these day but have a bit of Paddry Reilly.<

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jjon
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 08:03 PM

Could not disagree with you further, Steve. My own relationship[ with changed when I fell in lust with Anwen who was a brilliant concertina player. I;ve not believed music is mt God from those day on. I had to let go of a lot,,,

God is the prince of takers-away.

Not to me, while the way I think of and relate to music has changed, Satan is the prince of taker away.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 07:31 PM

i understand handel claimed divine help with the "messiah".

Handel lied. Prove I'm wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 07:29 PM

Yes my personal belief is all great music Christian or otherwise is a gift.

Nothing personal, but this attitude that emanates from religious belief absolutely stinks. It ranks as such alongside those ludicrous harvest thanksgiving ceremonies and "grace before meals"-type prayers, where deluded people pray to a totally indolent God to thank him, not for anything he's actually done, but for the products of the blood, sweat and tears of human endeavour (those we can just tax). I note that the thanksgiving prayers don't include mention of the Staphylococcus food-poisoning bugs or the myriad pests and diseases that ravage those wonderful, God-given crops, or for the spoilage organisms that ruin the produce and cause hungry gaps. Never mind gifts. God is the prince of takers-away.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 04:43 PM

John on 1. Yes my personal belief is all great music Christian or otherwise is a gift.

2 We agree on

3, Must have been bad wording on my part but I was using "non God" for atheist and again trying to say in no way can I control another's belief. Hope that is comprehensible.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 11:57 AM

Regarding this post:

The Goebbels Diaries 1939-1941, translated and edited by Fred Taylor:
p 304:
"(Hitler) "hates Christianity, because it has crippled all that is noble in humanity. According to Schopenhauer, Christianity and syphilis have made humanity unhappy and unfree."

This is only one side of the story. You should read what Hitler has to say about atheists.
He also invokes a god in Mein Kampf. As to Hitler's position on Christianity or any other religion, can one actually take anything someone as disturbed as Hitler seriously?

Actually, history is fraught with many religious or pseudo-religious leaders who invoke their version of what god is and usually put themselves at the apex of their "movement".
I heartily disagree that there is a definable atheist movement which would be like the proverbial "herding cats". If you actually listen to what Dawkins, Dennet Harris, and Hitchens say about atheism, you would find considerable differences in their points-of-view. Most of the religious attack squad would not take the time to take into consideration what these men have to say on the subject.

In the meantime, attack ads such as "the atheist delusion" offer no concrete examples how atheism is delusional or why a religious belief system is sane.

History is often cherry-picked selectively to support a point of view. But it's the blind man and the elephant. In this case, history is used as a propaganda mechanism.




That about says it:   that was the parallel for the Nazis:   Christianity and syphilis, the twin plagues.

I wonder how many of our Mudcat atheists would share this view.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 11:48 AM

believing that men are made in the image of God ,i would venture that religion does not have a monopoly on good music though i understand handel claimed divine help with the "messiah".
i,ll go with argent"God gave rock and roll to you"

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 10:58 AM

Jo(h)ns

I think you each know where the other stands.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 10:03 AM

Jon,
great music is a gift from God
Does that include all the great music that wasn't written on religious themes or by devout Christians?

Much personal experience together with my best attempts at reasoning personally supports the existence of a God
I don't have a problem with that -- what I was saying is that Ron's assertion that atheism is stupid is an unfounded conclusion.

How you find you God on "non God" is yours alone.
Completely incomprehensible. What are you trying to say?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 12:44 AM

Thinking again, John

1 no as stated before, we can all get things wrong.

2. personal belief would lead me to believe that great music is a gift from God

3. Much personal experience together with my best attempts at reasoning personally supports the existence of a God

4. To repeat.    How you find you God on "non God" is yours alone.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 10:23 PM

Ron, your failure to examine your logic when its fallacies are pointed out to you make you boring and useless on a discussion forum. Since you won't support most of what you've said with any evidence and since your logic is full of fallacies, here is what we know as a result of this thread:

1. There is no evidence of any link between atheism and atrocity. That being the case, claiming that the atrocities committed by atheist dictators had anything to do with whether or not they believed in god is unfounded.

2. There is no evidence of a link between the writing of great music and a belief in god. Therefore, saying that religion "gave us great music" is unfounded.

3. There is no evidence to support the existence of gods. Therefore, a belief that atheism is a bad choice is unfounded.

That's about it, Ron. Your theories are empty. Have a nice, if confused, life.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 10:06 PM

"The idea that Hitler wanted to destroy the Church is not true."

Fine.   And what is your evidence-- besides your own wishful thinking?   Your rambling about South America is remarkably pointless--even for a desperate atheist.

The 3rd Reich was as hostile to religion as they dared be without rousing mass protest--as I have already illustrated.    And they blatantly substituted Nazi "saints" for Catholic ones, and Hitler for God--as I have also pointed out.    You can easily tell the attitude of a regime by what is taught the young--and in the 3rd Reich the attitude of the rulers was painfully obvious--except perhaps to Mudcat atheists in deep denial.

Of course it does appear that the #1 rule of the atheist catechism is to conveniently miss reading anything that disturbs the comfortable assumptions an atheist lives by--with the exceptions of Amos and Bill D, who do in fact read posts and have a much more nuanced view of the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 09:05 PM

Thinking again there John Fanny C did reason her music came from a   belief in God. I as a believer in    something   beyond us exists   can not work it all out but there was something that gave her comfort and writing ability through her blindness. I can not explain though - can only feel something was there for her.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 08:44 PM

Qhy this will not post is beyond me...

I do not know or your question re #2 John P. I can say find something special in I heard the voice of Jesus say but say the the Irish tune with no words. The Bank OT Turf can also mean something to me...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 04:22 PM

Ill attempt #1 John P. The link with atrocity is greed or desires of the flesh.

Exactly. No need for atheism in the equation.

On point 2, while it proves nothing or makes any music (my own fave when able being in an Irish session) better How did Forster write this or Fanny Crosby write anything at all?

Maybe they were just good at writing music and happened to write on religious themes? Is there any indication that their music would have been less good had they not been writing about religion? Or that religious music in general is "better" than non-religious music because it is inspired by the religious beliefs of the composer?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 03:08 PM

On point 2, while it proves nothing or makes any music (my own fave when able being in an Irish session) better How did Forster write this or Fanny Crosby write anything at all?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 02:44 PM

Ill attempt #1 John P. The link with atrocity is greed or desires of the flesh. As I stated before I think true reading of the bible and following that ought with love thy neighbour to provide a way out of it and I will add that it is abuse of religion that can cause a problem.


The idea that all non believers are violent/non violent or all Christians are violent/non violent matches no experience in my life. While I personally believe he is our savour we can all get things horribly wrong... and all sometimes do good deeds...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 09:51 AM

Ron, last chance:

Here's the questions for you that are on the table:

1. Your theory is that there is a link between atheism and atrocity. If so, why aren't I a mass murderer? If not, what's your point?

2. Are you suggesting that great classical composers were less great when writing about non-Christian themes? If so, can you give some examples? If not, why do you try to draw a link between Christianity and great music?

4. Do you really think that all atheists are alike and should be grouped together for the purposes of making a point? Why should anyone pay attention to you when you use bigoted language?

5. And the zinger, of course: why do you think there is any possibility that there are such things as gods? If you think atheists are such idiots, display your great knowledge and reasoning powers for us. Show us your evidence and logic.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 11:54 PM

Give it a rest Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 11:49 PM

More on Hitler and Christianity:

The Goebbels Diaries 1939-1941, translated and edited by Fred Taylor:

p 304:

(Hitler) "hates Christianity, because it has crippled all that is noble in humanity. According to Schopenhauer, Christianity and syphilis have made humanity unhappy and unfree."

That about says it:   that was the parallel for the Nazis:   Christianity and syphilis, the twin plagues.

I wonder how many of our Mudcat atheists would share this view.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 02:35 PM

Frank from a personal POV, Christ has only brought me hell - some of my own making...

I do not get the Christians are always good and antsiest (while I may believe they are mistaken in believing nothing above us exists) are always bad, We, if the bible was accepted we really come to the parable of the good Samaritan on this point.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 01:32 PM

The idea that Hitler wanted to destroy the church is not true. He wanted to use the church to promulgate his ideas and his minions were rewarded by the Catholic Church and sent to South American countries for protection.

The idea of suggesting that there is a "real" Christian is like interpreting rain by saying it is what you want it to mean without any real meaning whatever. (See Lewis Carrol's Queen who says that her "word" is "what I want it to mean and nothing more." Today, there are Christians who are attempting to subvert the Constitution by claiming that their orthodox view is the correct one and that the Founding Fathers wanted us to live in a Christian theocracy.

The idea that there is a real Christianity is only an opinion and not a fact.

Then we get into ad hominem attacks such as "Bush was an idiot so that his ideas on religion were wrong". The problem is not Bush or the sincerity of what he believed but the actual idea of religion, itself.

As to the "atheists are evil" argument, when are people finally going to put this lie to rest?

I am grateful that these threads continue and love to see them longer and longer.