BS: The Atheist Delusion

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 01:14 PM

Ron:
You seem to be repeating yourself without ever responding to others. Here's the questions for you that are on the table:

1. You're theory is that there is a link between atheism and atrocity. If so, why aren't I a mass murderer? If not, what's your point?

2. Are you suggesting that great classical composers were less great when writing about non-Christian themes? If so, can you give some examples? If not, why do you try to draw a link between Christianity and great music?

4. Do you really think that all atheists are alike and should be grouped together for the purposes of making a point? Why should anyone pay attention to you when you use bigoted language?

5. And the zinger, of course: why do you think there is any possibility that there are such things as gods? If you think atheists are such idiots, display your great knowledge and reasoning powers for us. Show us your evidence and logic.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 12:15 PM

There was no place for religion in Hitler's ideal society.   And some Catholics, like former Chancellor Bruening,--a conservative, by the way-- realized this.

Cornwell:   p 155

In 1933, Bruening "traveled throughout Germany, reading out reports of physical torture inflicted upon Jews and Social Democrats, warning that Hitler's ultimate goal was to destroy the Church."

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 06:06 PM

it may be dificult to say who is a real christian.it is not difficult to judge that many of those confessing christ have done some appalling things which are totally unlike christ,s example.but many others have been shining examples.
ron-in the interests of fairness,someone suggested cuba as a succesful atheist state.i wondered about albania.i remember reading "Gods smuggler".that was the only communist country where bibles were at that time apparently not wanted by anyone.have you any comments on these states?i dont know enough to decide ,even though i might expect there to be oppression of some sort.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 03:51 PM

He is a third generation politician. How much credence can you give what he says?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 03:43 PM

"If he says he's Christian, and gets his messages from a Christian version of God (which he has asserted is the case) then clearly he is a Christian. " Just like Simon Magus.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 03:42 PM

Perhaps on reflection then the fairest way of wording it to avoid "real Christian" is Bush does not match my personal best attempts at reading the bible or my personal best attempts at picturing Christ.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Amos
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 02:09 PM

If he says he's Christian, and gets his messages from a Christian version of God (which he has asserted is the case) then clearly he is a Christian. Unless, of course, he does something indefensible, in which case the safe response is, "Oh, but he's not a REAL Christian." I suppose the men who died fighting the Saracens to liberate the Holy Land were perhaps not as real Christians as one might have hoped, nor those who lit the flames around the girls from Salem and Joan of Arc. Maybe they were just misled bipeds or something. There are a lot of those around...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 12:55 PM

I don't know about REAL. But other than politically convenient lip service, there is little public evidence that Bush was devout.

Jimmy Carter, maybe, Bush and Reagan, I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 11:36 AM

Well, I agree with you, Dave. Obviously he's not a REAL Christian. But he thinks he is and so do lots of others. In any event, he's certainly not an atheist.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 11:23 AM

"everyone knows that he (George W Bush) is also a devout Christian."

I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 11:16 AM

John P, I haven't been reading Davies' (I have heard the pro-believer side enough times) posts but having just read yours I might have an inkling of what he is up to.

Do you realize that you have just listed pretty much every anti-christian argument that there is, except pedophile priests, and are defending against those arguments as and atheist. Unless you actually are saved, this is as likely as you will every come to knowing the Christian side in these arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 09:34 AM

Ron:
You seem to be repeating yourself without ever responding to others. Here's the questions for you that are on the table:

1. You're theory is that there is a link between atheism and atrocity. If so, why aren't I a mass murderer? If not, what's your point?

2. Are you suggesting that great classical composers were less great when writing about non-Christian themes? If so, can you give some examples? If not, why do you try to draw a link between Christianity and great music?

4. Do you really think that all atheists are alike and should be grouped together for the purposes of making a point? Why should anyone pay attention to you when you use bigoted language?

5. You say Hitler treated religion as something to be exploited. George Bush and company treat religion as something to be exploited, and yet everyone knows that he is also a devout Christian. Is it possible that Hitler treated religion the way politicians always do and that his personal beliefs had nothing to do with it?

6. If killing millions of Jews wasn't religious, what was it?

7. And the zinger, of course: why do you think there is any possibility that there are such things as gods? If you think atheists are such idiots, display your great knowledge and reasoning powers for us. Show us your evidence and logic.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 12:10 AM

As I've noted earlier, it's obvious to anybody who does a modicum of research--of course that may exclude some of our dear atheists, who don't want to have their comfortable assumptions disturbed-- that Hitler and Christian churches in Germany did not in fact get along.

The Third Reich pushed as hard as it could to undermine the churches--without stirring up a lot of opposition.    In fact several times it overstepped acceptable limits--even regarding a fearful Catholic community--and had to pull back.

The Nazis tried to fold all Catholic youth groups into the Hitlerjugend.


They carried out "morality" trials, accusing Catholic religious figures of sexual abuse of minors (where have we heard this before?--and it's an easy , damaging,charge, hard to refute regardless of how trumped up it may be in a given case).

In 1935 Hitler declared in Nuernberg that he was not against Christianity in itself, but " we will fight it for the sake of keeping our public life free from those priests who have failed their calling and who should have become politicians rather than clergymen."

And of course he was to determine which priests had thus "failed their calling."

There was an order to remove crucifixes from churches in northern Germany in 1936.   One bishop, Clemens von Galen, resisted this--and encouraged mass protest against it. The Reich backed down.

It's obvious to anybody who does even a bit of research that Hitler treated religion as something either to be exploited or--when that was not an option--opposed and undermined.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 04:43 AM

Dave, I wasn't up to spelling your full name... I'm not sure whether I agreed with you or not as I didn't really understand where you were coming from. Hope I was agreeing with you though.

A fact to me is that I could agree with a non believer or person with different faith (if I have faith...) to mine over some point and disagree with someone who is of the same faith.

Nothing is as simple to me as say we are both Christians so we will agree on everything or he is a Christian and he believes in whatever so we will disagree. May be seeking the same God though.

Hope that makes a fraction of sense.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 04:23 AM

Who's Dave Mc?

It sounds like you agree with me, Jon.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Slag
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 01:55 AM

It might help to first, define your terms and get your thinking organized. Much of what has been said here and on similar threads is the stuff of epistenology. Shared mutual experience might be a good place to find agreement. The sensory universe and its sensed perception by the human beings is the beginning of language which is wholly dependent on shared mutual experience and is evidence of its correctness. From there, find a mutual expression of illusion, delusion and its underlying causes. Define god, God, non-God, states of consciousness, identity etc. You could build a real philosophy.

Or your could just BS, poke at each other, ignore stuff and general cover and recover the ground you've already crossed. or start a new thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 09:31 PM

Songs were another of hers but we have not record Except to say she was not rich but really wanted to and did pay for my mother's piano lessons and I believe did much to help her phyiso education at QE Brum.I do these days wish I knew what she had to offer.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 09:21 PM

To further the OT comments and to repeat myself just in case Steve has not read this from me. I wish I'd properly known "Granny Westbury" who died when I was about 7. Certainly not your scientific ways but to know everything in a hedgerow or field was, I believe, something she knew very well and delighted in.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 09:03 PM

OT but they are beautiful little things aren't the Steve. ?

The Scarlet Pimpernel can be found here and loads of common poppies. However we analyse it, nature can throw up nice things.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:57 PM

Which I understand is the state flower of Alaska, unless that well-known bespectacled hockey-mom has shot 'em all.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:47 PM

Why do I love a forget me not for example?

I can tell you why I love a forget-me-not. I have a degree in Botany, and plant taxonomy was one of my strongest subjects. It caused me to study the classification of flowering plants in detail, and, as they are classified largely on their reproductive biology, I got to look at the flowers and fruits of many species very closely. Apart from seeing patterns in plant reproduction which helped me to see evolutionary relationships between species, genera and families, it also got me admiring what I saw as the true essence of beauty, which was form and function in perfect synergy. A lot more, in other words, than seeing pretty colours and shapes in harmony. Later, I went off on my own to search for plants in their own ecosystems, and one day in 1972 (I still have my field diaries) I found the alpine forget-me-not, Myosotis alpestris, one of the rarest of all British plants, in Upper Teesdale. That was the icing on the cake.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:42 PM

And referring to Ron who started the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:37 PM

I was being ironic, Jon..

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:31 PM

I think I get less and less comfortable with the concept of evil in that way Smokey. There acts that I despise but again in my personal woes have a "there but for the grace of God go I".

Believe me it is incredibly hard when if like me you have found yourself in jail for 30hrs accused of a rape that did not exist (she got 6 months youth detention for lying and I had never met her and I had not had sex with anyone at that time - I was 37 before that came to me and then I get someone with a boyfriend in prison) it is incredibly hard living with "there is no smoke without fire" but these are places I have been.

Evil though, from my very personal stance and these days, I try (and can fail to) blame what I would call the evil one rather than the person. It is hard. Often too hard for me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:18 PM

A list of atheists, mainly for Ron's benefit. Some real evil people here..

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:17 PM

Why do I love a forget me not for example?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:10 PM

Data and thought btw Steve could be something as simple has how you interpret the flowers in your garden sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:57 PM

I'm listening, and there's nothing out there.

If by that you mean the world should rely on the hearing of Dave Mc, I;d roll on the floor laughing.

We all find what we find.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:50 PM

Think you are wrong above Steve. Thought IMO does require some data to work on. If your thought then takes you one way and my thought on the same data takes me another. I have to say "so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:48 PM

I'm listening, and there's nothing out there.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:45 PM

As far as I can see, most Atheists start by defining a god, and then setting out to prove that their god does not exist

Then you're not listening to what atheists are telling you. Put your long-distance specs on.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:43 PM

It's not quite the way I see it John but this is just my personal view, I do not know what I believed in at 7 before we dropped out of church but I became a comfy athiest and was glad I was right - and I knew full well how to call someone with belief brain dead.. Subsequent things led me again very personally to believe I was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:41 PM

Rational and logical thought are only as perfect as the underlying data

Not at all. Thought does not necessarily require data. If I claim that my atheism is based on rational thinking, what I am saying is that everything in human experience, apart from this God chappie, follows the laws of physics, as far as we know. For notions put forward to us, it is our instinct as human beings to require evidence and to seek it out. We call it doing science. Believers in God have characterised him, without evidence or justification, as being beyond science. He's untouchable because you say he gets a bye when it comes to what everything else in the universe has to do, obey the laws. On top of all that he must be far more complicated than the most complicated thing that Einstein or Hawking or any of our other great thinkers has ever contemplated. I'd say it was rational to reject God on these bases. Highly rational, bearing in mind, of course, that rational doesn't mean right. Now the converse, taken away from the context of the comfort that believers clearly derive from their faith, must be that it is highly irrational to believe in God. It's a hard case to put, because people who believe in God often believe because they have been told to, or have just lived their lives accepting with apathy what others around them believe. Then there's the nice biblical yarns, the family thing, the long tradition, the ceremony, the highly-persuasive religious music and beautiful architecture. You could make a good case for saying that it's rational to go along with all that. Once you're in it, it's certainly more comfortable and, dare I say, personally beneficial to stay in it (and not to do too much thinking, something organised religion likes). But all that aside, if you take thought and weigh up in a detached way the pros and cons, and you still come out believing, you are indeed being highly irrational. Which doesn't mean the same thing as wrong, though you probably are.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:38 PM

Pardon my spelling, I was distracted by fairies.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:36 PM

Defining the non-existant would be rather time consuming; there's an awful lot of it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:27 PM

As far as I can see, most Atheists start by defining a god, and then setting out to prove that their god does not exist, whether or not any theists actually believe in this god.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:22 PM

The Lord moves in mysterious ways, Steve, you should know that..

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:16 PM

It isn't just that there's a lack of subjective, empirical or logical evidence. That is one facet of the problem, for sure. Just as important is that the supernatural being who is proposed would have to breach all the laws of nature that humankind has worked so hard to shed light on (using that mighty brain that this alleged being has supposedly endowed us with). I've typed that idea dozens of times on these threads and no believer has ever addressed it, not once. Equally, and I think this is really the crucial bit, God, as far as I can see, has been invented as someone whose existence explains the whole of "creation," the whole universe in all its beauty and complexity. The universe's complexities are hard enough to explain (except by believers, who insert God by default into anything that's hard to explain), but the supreme being must himself be far bigger and far more complex than the most complex things in the universe. In other words, we try to explain difficult things by inventing an infinitely more difficult and complex thing, who is not just difficult but impossible to explain, who breaks all the rules and for whom there is no evidence. I'm waiting for someone to tell me an example of any other sphere of human endeavour or thought where this approach would be considered sane and sensible. You know, we get slagged off by certain defensive believers who demonise atheism as the world's greatest evil, who say we can't be atheists at all, who pretend that atheism is some sort of religion or creed and who attempt to grade us into weird categories. Or even question our mental health, eh, Jacko? Tee hee! It would be very refreshing if, for once, they actually tried to address what it is we are saying about atheism instead of casting us as the devils incarnate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:50 PM

Were you arguing with me or not?

Just trying to pin down what you actually meant. I can't really argue with you if I'm not sure exactly what you're saying.

Your Atheism is not perfectly "rational or logical" if you think it is then I admire your firm conviction and dogmatic faith in your convictions. Rational and logical thought are only as perfect as the underlying data and I don't believe there is enough data either way to support such smugness.

My absence of belief correlates with an absence of subjective, empirical or logical evidence. I have never felt as though I had a choice about it. How is that either irrational, illogical, or smug?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:32 PM

I think the point with Fanny Crosby, Frank is to recognise what she believed and accept what she did and what she felt.

OTOH, no I do not understand praising God for blindness, Much is a wrestle...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:25 PM

>>There are plenty on this forum who do not claim that they are always right.<<

>>>>I didn't say 'always' and I was referring only to belief in the supernatural, whether selective or not.<<<<

Were you arguing with me or not? If you are, then I was explaining what I said. If your were not then your response makes no sense.

And no. Your Atheism is not perfectly "rational or logical" if you think it is then I admire your firm conviction and dogmatic faith in your convictions. Rational and logical thought are only as perfect as the underlying data and I don't believe there is enough data either way to support such smugness.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:16 PM

"This issue is no longer just a personal one"


Maybe to you, not to me, and I suspect many others.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:07 PM

Reading the Wiki on Fanny Crosby, I think that from what limited knowledge I have of her life, whether she believed or not, she would have been a person of letters and a songwriter.

This issue is no longer just a personal one. There are too many who are in judgement of an atheist view and express it with hostility, and attempt to discredit it. That is why these threads are so long. It is a problem of tolerance and understanding. To effectively reach an atheist conclusion, most people who reach this have gone through religious training and found it wanting. I have investigated many different religions and as a result have decided that none of them work for me. As to the notion of a supreme being, this is such an amorphous and unclear idea that when people talk about it, it becomes confusing and contradictory. To deny that one exists requires a definition of what it is that seems to be
beyond any consensus or description that makes sense. The definition becomes a chameleon which changes its illusive shape depending on who offers it as their belief.

One of the problems is that a definition of a supreme being requires an absolute that is impossible to prove. Absolutes are not negotiable whereas there is nothing absolute about non-belief. If someone can prove there is a singular supreme being or a pantheon of gods through any scientific evidence, most atheists I know would be open to being convinced. But since this evidence has never been forthcoming in any rational form, it must be concluded that this evidence doesn't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:24 PM

There are plenty on this forum who do not claim that they are always right.

I didn't say 'always' and I was referring only to belief in the supernatural, whether selective or not.

There are plenty on this forum that do not claim that All atheists are always logical and by implication that believers are not.

Implication is often in the eye of the beholder, but are you talking about the logic of specific beliefs or are you making blanket/generalising statements about individuals? I see a clear distinction between the two and I'm not sure which you mean. Non-belief in the supernatural seems perfectly logical and rational to me, for example, but that doesn't mean that, like every human, I'm not capable of illogical and irrational behaviour at times. Likewise there are many believers who may, at least to me, seem to be perfectly rational in other areas of their life. Perhaps the ability to compartmentalise is a relevant factor.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:26 PM

IMO, people are never wrong to hold personal beliefs, or not to have such. If it works for you personally, why would it matter to anyone else?

Agreed but there are more difficult positions, ED T. Having gone through the atheist stage, and then believing a God exists, my life has largely been hell (some of my own making). Whether one could argue it works for me would be debatable and many (including myself at times) would say it doesn't but whether I like it or not, the belief (even if I leave it at times) comes back and makes sense to me.

As posted elsewhere, I can feel like some strange mix of Jonah wanting to run away, Job having trials he does not understand and Paul with his wrestles.

If works means comfort, I'd say largely not. If works means I've had my life transformed in some way and I have become a better creature, I'd say not at all. OTOH, if works means I believe Christ is the way, for me (and I'm not saying for others) I;d have to say yes.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 02:44 PM

It wasn't religion that gave rise to inspirational music and art. It was inspired musicians and artists who would have been inspired regardless of the limitations place on them by clerics, priests and preachers.

Fanny Crosby is interesting on this point

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:54 PM

"I've yet to meet someone who didn't believe in gods/the supernatural (or did, for that matter) who at the same time thought they were wrong or that they were illogical or irrational in their belief or non-belief"

I dont know if I am wrong or right in a belief in a God. It is rational for me, because it is what was instilled in me as a child, and at times gives me peace. Others may feel that such a belief is illogical for them. IMO, people are never wrong to hold personal beliefs, or not to have such. If it works for you personally, why would it matter to anyone else?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:42 PM

There are plenty on this forum who do not claim that they are always right.

There are plenty on this forum that do not claim that All atheists are always logical and by implication that believers are not.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:37 PM

Atheists are all the same in that they are always logical and that they are always right.

I've yet to meet someone who didn't believe in gods/the supernatural (or did, for that matter) who at the same time thought they were wrong or that they were illogical or irrational in their belief or non-belief.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:37 PM

They lump all believers into one basket and blame religion itself for the action of the few.