BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 05:25 AM

WYSIWYG, you have tried to use statements about science to further your arguments. Those statements have frequently displayed a profound lack of understanding of how science works and I have, with the best of intentions, tried to explain where you are going wrong. If I have appeared patronising, I apologise. It was never my intention to be so unlike some of your responses which have been dripping with sarcasm.

Riginslinger is openly hostile to religion so I can understand why you find him impossible to engage with. I have said nothing against religion or your beliefs but have merely tried to put you right on matters of science about which I know a fair amount. I am sorry that you are, apparently, unable to tolerate disagreement.

Have a merry Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 04:38 AM

Personally, I don't care what gods people believe in so long as they don't try to shove it down my throat as some universal truth. Evangelism is the ultimate arrogance.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 11:27 PM

Snail, I've said pretty much what I can to clarify this point--I wish you the best of luck with it. I can vouch for the fact that it is very useful in a variety of settings, from creating music, to cooking, to engaging in negotiations that involve large amounts of money.

I am going to leave the discussion thread for now, partly because I've said what I can to help it along, and partly because it's been taking an inordinate amount of time to reload the thread, as much as five minutes--and what with it being "Winter Holiday Season" and all, I've got other things to do--

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 09:10 PM

why I objected to WYSYWIG's remark

Actually, Snail, what you did was object to a point not addressed to you, that I had made in response to someone else's point, and you skewed my remark so that you could make a point YOU wanted to make, whatever that was... which you have done in a rather patronizing, argumentitive manner a number of times in this thread. At least that's the way it has seemed to me; this is the same kind of posting that led me to begin to ignore Riginslinger's posts a long time ago.

You may indeed be scientifically correct about the pilpul points you raise, within whatever discussion guidelines you feel are the norm for whatever kind of discussion is your preference; but they miss the mark of what I mean to discuss and my preferred mode of discourse so widely that I am not interested in attempting to look for, much less find, a point of agreement with you. Without a shared point of view from which to begin, it seems to me that rational discourse with you is not a logical expectation.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 08:50 PM

That's like saying you can't prove that Rf decreases as 1/d^2. Sure you can't see it. But so what? You can measure it. And if you care to share the fate of those workmen who tried to get warm by standing in front of a microwave antenna, you can even experience it. What's "seeing" got to do with anything other than a relatively narrow segment of the EMF spectrum?


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 08:04 PM

M.Ted, I think we may be finally getting back towards the point I was originally trying to make. In your quote, Einstein is not talking about gravity as an observed phenomenon, he is talking about it as a consequence of his theory of relativity. These are two quite separate things. Theories are subject to proof (or disproof), observed phenomena are not.

That is why I objected to WYSYWIG's remark that "Can't see thought, so can't "prove" thought". No, you can't "prove" thought anymore than you can prove gravity or prove apple or prove bacon sandwich but you can prove theories about them. My Theory of Bacon Sandwich awaits publication.

So "gravity", the idea that objects are drawn to the earth, isn't really true, and "gravity" doesn't really exist.   Still, you could have fooled me--and I will continue to behave as if does exist--

Wise decision.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 07:19 PM

I maintain that there are many non-believers out there who prefer not to be drawn into the discussion of the existence of God because they see the futility of dealing with rabid opinions.

I think because they assume they will be dealing futilely with rabid opinions.

I've maintained for a long time that the only reasonable way-- the only practical way-- to deal with these subjects is around a campfire, late at night, in a mutually-curious manner with a close or you-want-to-be-close friend. Only real affection bridges the gaps in understanding, and prevents the exchange from becoming something other than whatever the two parties agreed in advance to have.

Hm, reading that back it sounds like I'm describing sex-- GOOD sex that is.... an effective chat about these matters is as private, important, intense, and time-consuming as good sex can be. A LITTLE affection (at the least) makes it even better.

:~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,JESUS
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 06:45 PM

Ok, Ed. Here I am. Now that that's sorted, there's a whole lot of catching up for you to do. Ready? You can start with reading your Bible from cover to cover. That'll explain most of what I want you to do. And stop ignoring Me. When you get to know Me better, I'll tell you the rest. And get a move on!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 04:52 PM

I home the day comes when people/humans can analyze thought itself. Something as basic as that and we really don't know how it comes about.

I don't know for sure that thoughts about G-d are any different than thoughts about the curvature of space or why the colour blue appeals to some folks and not others. I also don't know at what point an idea becomes a conviction or a conviction a belief. That process does occur, and we know it because there are people who die for their beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 04:29 PM

Hi Susan,

"I don't understand why people-- religious or non-religious-- are afraid to open the doors to thinking or asking about things.... I CAN understand why folks sometimes assume that certain tradtions may inhibit the opening of the doors, but I would think that all doors that can be opened would inform the subject."

I thoroughly agree. This is why I think it would be instructive to question the nature of religion and test it scientifically. I agree that an informed discussion is desirable.
Close-mindedness and vituperation don't shed light on anything.

It's very difficult to talk past one another without directly answering the questions
that are posed. I think thiat the answering of these questions entail a certain respect for the people asking them without name-calling or opinionated denegration of ideas often dismissed without considerable thought.

The rigors of analysis are often avoided by drawing lines in the sand. I maintain that there are many non-believers out there who prefer not to be drawn into the discussion of the existence of God because they see the futility of dealing with rabid opinions. I think that the future will entail an extensive examination of the role of religion and how it impacts on the way a society conducts itself. I can see this as being only useful. Maybe a model of how a society can ethically conduct itself can be revealed.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 03:45 PM

You can call a sheep a dog but ya can't make it bark.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 12:24 PM

The fact that it is simply a property of space does not mean it doesn't exist. Temperature exists, even though it is not caused by caloric fluid, or phlogiston, migrating through the ether. Existence in this sense does not depend on definitions or explanations.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 12:14 PM

Snail. since you are pushing the point, here is an illustration of Einstein's view of gravity (lifted from http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/gravity_modern_views.htm)--

>Einstein postulated that the presence of matter distorts the space around it.

>This can be explained by picturing space as a grid of lines. Without matter, space would be a >perfect grid of parallel lines. An object would move in a straight line through space.

>The presence of another mass of matter would distort the lines, drawing some toward it. Thus >a moving object would no longer travel in a straight line. Instead, it would curve toward the >other object, appearing to be attracted to it. What this theory does is says that gravitation—>the attraction of an object toward another—was not caused by the apparent force of gravity >between masses. Instead, it was simply a property of space.

So "gravity", the idea that objects are drawn to the earth, isn't really true, and "gravity" doesn't really exist.   Still, you could have fooled me--and I will continue to behave as if does exist--

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 10:54 AM

I think The Snail is caught in extreme literality. "Embody" and "Incarnate" mean, literally, enfleshed.

The Snail is, therefore, not PC (Poetically Correct).

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 10:51 AM

Well--concepts do. You can yell "PAIL!!" in a crowded mall, and scores of people hearing you will get slightly different pictures of pails -- longer, shorter, plastic or galvanized -- but the concept for all of them embodies their experience of things we call pails. The more removed from experience language gets, the harder it is to keep it clear and connect with others.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 08:41 AM

OK, OK, OK but "ideas embody our experience of things"?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 08:04 AM

Snail:

THings may well be the embodiment of ideas, but there aren't many physicists who will buy that. And it would be nice if we knew why we can't change them as quickly as we can change ideas.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 07:06 AM

Hang on a minute. Now that I'm more awake...

ideas embody our experience of things

Ideas don't "embody" things; things embody ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 05:53 AM

M.Ted

Language is a medium we've created to express ideas, and those ideas embody our experience of things, not their nature.

Fine, so why are you telling me that I cannot use the word "gravity" to mean the idea that embodies our experience of not floating off the ground?

--gravity, is an idea like that, though you'll have to get the details from somebody else on that--

That could be interpreted as "I don't really know what I'm talking about."

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 02:49 AM

when most nights i am so sick of daily struggle no money toil and anguish
and endure the battle long and hard with wakedness
untill i am so finally tired enough to sleep..

i drift into mysterious dark other world dimension
to enjoy sunset morning daylight bursting thro8gh curtains enduced daft headed nonsense dreamsms..


in that funtastic dream world



i sometimes try so hard to reach out..


but i never see GOD..

i'm friendly enough..

but even though he omnipresent..

..he dont even ever turn up for dream pool side barbie

with bottle of cheap wine and box of party poppers..


why !!!???


..and funnily enough ..


when i wake 4 or 5 hours later to meet the new mid-day

groggy headed and furry mouthed..



I never see him then !!!!



TONIGHT .. i am waiting for a phone call


an elderly relative might survive another night in hospital .. or not..

waiting.............


i begining to think god do exist ..

he must be the mean spirited mudcat mod

who deletes anything i write here that might upset his most intolerant fan boy worship club suck arses..

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 02:14 AM

Snail--We still talk about the sun rising and setting, many hundreds of years after we found out that it doesn't do that--it's an idea that reflects the way we experience it, and is more meaningful to us than what really happens--gravity, is an idea like that, though you'll have to get the details from somebody else on that--

As we speak, It is raining, here, though it may not be raining where you are--but the things that define "raining" to me, are really only a small part of the phenomenon, and probably not the most important part. In fact, as I have gotten older, my understanding of "rain" has changed a lot, though I still get wet the way I always have--

Language is a medium we've created to express ideas, and those ideas embody our experience of things, not their nature.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:49 PM

Well, my question was, how would you define a standard of replicability for studying consciousness?



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:43 PM

Amos, what didn't I address? Not to ask for repetition, but for clarification.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:23 PM

To be fair, Snail, you are quite right that material space time is real. Gravity is real, and so is light, rain, cold wind and other facts about it.

I think the question M Ted raises, if I may put words in his mouth, is how they are real, and how they come so to be.

Agreement about them provides a lot of their solidity and persistence.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:15 PM

Oh well, I tried.

M.Ted, I'm sure you are right that Gravity is just a word that describes an idea that we have created with language...

...but I'm still not going to walk off the top of any tall buildings in the near future.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 01:02 PM

"...the discussion in this thread is just a disagreement about the meaning of a whole lot of words."

well, not 'quite' that narrow, but close. There's even a technical word for aspects of that situation: equivocation. If we don't agree on definition & meaning, we can hardly debate 'reality'.

For a detailed (and convoluted) theory of how the mind does or doesn't create reality, delve into the writings of David Hume. He insists his logic is air-tight,(and many philosophers agree) but admits in a footnote that even he can't usually act as though it is also 'true'.....this footnote is a pretty important point.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 12:10 PM

Snail,

I am reminded of the lines Olde Bill left: more things there are in heaven and earth than in all your philosophy, Horatio. (Paraphrased at no extra charge).

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 11:04 AM

You just can't handle the truth, Snail. And it's out there. If you don't believe me, ask around.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 07:25 AM

M.Ted

Oh, and the old argument about "What if a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it?" or some such thing, has nothing to do with sounds or trees, and is merely a disagreement on the meaning of the word "sound".

No it isn't. It's about what you are allowed to infer about an event that you have not observed on the basis of your experience of events that you have observed.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 07:21 AM

M.Ted

Gravity and Thought and the Earth, Sun and Moon and Love and Gravity and Thought and the Earth, Sun and Moon and Love and Bacon Sandwiches and The Color Purple don't exist at all--they are merely ideas that we have created with language. and The Color Purple don't exist at all--they are merely ideas that we have created with language.

Now you are confusing the names of things with the things themselves. All of these existed before we came up with names for them (with the possible exception of Bacon Sandwiches). I think Genesis says that (with the possible exception of Bacon Sandwiches). My point is that you cannot prove gravity or thought, you can only prove theories of gravity or thought.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 12:12 AM

Oh, and the old argument about "What if a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it?" or some such thing, has nothing to do with sounds or trees, and is merely a disagreement on the meaning of the word "sound".

In that same way, the discussion in this thread is just a disagreement about the meaning of a whole lot of words.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 10:58 PM

Snail, I'm terribly sorry to have to break this to you, but I have a duty to tell the truth, (Deep Breath)--

Gravity and Thought and the Earth, Sun and Moon and Love and Bacon Sandwiches and The Color Purple don't exist at all--they are merely ideas that we have created with language. The ideas have no meaning beyond the fact that make differentiations that are meaningful to us--they have no relationship to the true nature of these objects at all.

In fact "true nature" and "objects" are also ideas that we have constructed--

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 08:19 PM

Oh dear WYSIWYG, please try and distinguish between things and theories about things. Gravity and Thought and the Earth, Sun and Moon and Love and Bacon Sandwiches and the Colour Purple simply exist. They ARE regardless of science or religion. It is only theories about them that need to be proved.

Just because I can't see a Bacon Sandwich at the moment doesn't mean I can't prove they exist. Now I think about it.....

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 07:25 PM

As to your question, PG--that is entirely to do with how straight the carrot is.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 07:10 PM

Apparently, the needle will move if you just think about showing it a picture of a carrot. Click Here if you think I'm kidding

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 06:33 PM

More to the point, is the cabbage gay or straight?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 06:13 PM

A liberal cabbage. or conservative?


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 06:10 PM

If you show the cabbage a picture of an erotic carrot, will the needle reading change?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 06:02 PM

You can attach electrodes to the head of a cabbage, and you can watch the needle jump, but you still won't know what it's thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 05:35 PM

Maybe we can't *SEE* thought, but we can get understandable responses to whatever you want to call our awareness by making noises and making marks on paper....and we can attach electrodes to the head and watch needles jump when certain stimuli are introduced.

These are indications...predictable and measurable in certain ways. Now you may call the underlying causes 'thought' or just call 'em electro-chemical reactions, but we DO stuff with them. Most supposed paranormal and religious 'entities' can't be 'measured' in any truly similar way.

I repeat...we need to quit trying to measure, evaluate and describe them with similar terminology.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 04:54 PM

Well, it seems to me that only those thing that people are against qualify for demands that they be rigorously proved scientifically. Can't see thought, so can't "prove" thought-- but no one is so anti-thought that they want to subject that to scientific proof before they'll even talk about it or tolerate OTHERS talking about it.

Only where there is extreme prejudice (and a mind already closed to possibilities) is the demand for proof before discussion.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 04:43 PM

Of course there are Yeti. We elected one to serve as vice president in 2004.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 03:01 PM

Until somebody finds a way to observe thoughts, it will be very difficult to subject them to scientific rigors. And there are some people who think that thoughts are like the Yeti--meaning that, without reliable, documentable observations, they don't really exist.

Without a valid and replicable research model, Descartes's idea that "I think therefore I am" is just an unprovable opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 02:28 PM

GEtting back to the issue of living versus non-living systems, and scientific rigor, here is an interesting scientific report that concludes that even fruit-flies cannot have their behaviour accounted for by simple stumulus response; but that they seem to include an "initiator" in their neural system which adds spontaneity.

The report is in this video from researchers at the Free University in Berlin and like all good research opens more question than it answers.

But is germane to the up-thread discussion about scientific analsyis of thought, even if only in fruit-flies.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 10:31 AM

I differentiate between "religious input" and actions taken by people who are also religious. Now that I think of it, there is one mandate to glorifiy the owrks of man to God -- or do I have that backwards? ANyway, innovating has always been a highly individual creation even when teams or cultural groups are providing the matrix.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 10:08 AM

Ismailism actually regards science as a primary tool for understanding the intelligible universe. The Aga Khan Foundation runs more than 300 schools in some of the more interesting parts of the world, with the purpose of creating a foundation for economic and technological development.

A special priority in these schools is to provide equal educational opportunities for female students--which should give those of you who think that Shia Islam is sexist something to think about on these, the longest nights of winter.

And, now that I think about it, I wonder how many of the ranters and ravers in this thread learned what they know about science (which, in some cases, seems not to be much) at an Institution of Higher Learning that was founded by Methodists, or Baptists, or Presbyterians, or those dreaded Calvinists, or even worse, actual Catholics?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 10:36 PM

...if only they didn't grovel and mumble so much.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Neil D
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 10:29 PM

This thread has become God-like in its profundity, if not its enormity. All praise to The Mighty Thread and hail Troll its procreator!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 09:33 PM

Ted,

Almost all technologies are by nature two-edged swords, from wood-carving to fission. There's no doubt, in my mind anyway, that as a species we have been way cleverer than we have been good.

Religions looking at science, aside from discussing the ethical implications as they align with moral codes held to be religious in origin, wouldn't have a lot to say, unless they start on a drumbeat (prophylactics are he spawn of Satan) in some way. Well, I know the Amish have certain decrees, also. But it's either observe it or condemn it. Oddly enough I don't know of any instance where technology has been forwarded by some religious input. And why should it -- it's the old "render unto Caesar", which surely includes technological advantages in Caesar's markets.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 09:18 PM

My comment was actually intended...

Glad to hear it-- I thought you'd lost your mind.

The discussions about science I've been involved in, in religious life, have tended to fall into the category of Ethical Theology and not been science-bashing at all. Not all religious discussion of opposers' views is oppositional in response; certainly in Anglican theology there is usually the expectation to seek the via media in that realm as well as in more strictly-doctrinal issues for which we are better known.

~Susan