BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,old guy
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 12:26 PM

Does anybody think that Kerry's opposition the the war is causing the insurgents in Iraq to think they can win if they kill enough Americans and behead enough hostages? Does a divided America give the insurgents hope that they can win?

Hell no. In past wars this situation could have caused the enemy to believe they have a better chance of winning. But in this particular circumstance it is Bush that is the sole cause of the stubborn insurgency and the epicenter of any problems that face America today.

Bush is not a true patriot like Kerry. He does not have the vision and foresight that Kerry has. Let's elect Kerry so he can see into the future and prevent such things from happening. At least Kerry won't have anybody harping at him about being wrong on everything.

In the mean time if more Americans die due to the nature of the campaign, it will be for greater good of America if Kerry gets elected.

This could be the wrong conclusion though.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 12:19 PM

Maybe it's Cheney who is blocking the investigation of the UN's oil for food program:

"However, during his time as CEO, Halliburton was selling millions of dollars to Iraq in supplies for its oil industry. The deals were done through old subsidiaries of Dresser Industries. It was done under the auspices of the corrupt UN Oil for Food Program.

Halliburton worked with Iran and Libya as well, using its own subsidiaries."

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/dickcheney/vice.html

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 11:23 AM

Old Guy:

Oh, come on. Those two principles are not contradictory but they could be under special circumstances, especially if the manager in charge of interpreting them was a s dumb as a rock.

But that would not be the case as you describe it.

As for your man Bush -- he seriously compromised the security of the United States because he just couldn't wait to use his new troops, could he. How many lives could he have saved finding another course of action to effect regime change?

Or perhaps human lives are not the senior good in your world?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 11:17 AM

John Kerry says he will submit everything to a global test before the US takes action. Then a few seconds later he says he will never give anyone a veto over the security of the United States.

These are not conflicting statements. He and only he can do both at the same time. Let's elect him so he can get on to doing these incredible things.

I cold possibly be wrong on this.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 11:48 PM

Gee, Moritcalia....

You seem awful ready to rush to judgment on very little data. IF your friend's father is in active duty, he has already spent a lot longer in servioce than he thought he would have to. And Kerry had nothing to do with it. He's not the type to fuck things up, and your ravings are a little off, IMHO. Where are you getting your data from? Sesame Street?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Peace
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 11:31 PM

. . . and then there was Con-Ed. And then there was Dubya. And darkness descended on the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Peace
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 11:08 PM

In the beginning there was light.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Morticalia
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 10:35 PM

" I want Mr. non-asshole Kerry to fix everything he says is broke like he says he will. God ... help him if he does not."

He won't fix it. He'll make it worse. He'll tax your asses off to support the crack whores spouting out children in the ghettos, and fuck up the military so that my friends father cannot be honorably discharged like he is supposed to be this summer, he'll allow abortion (a catholic supporting abortion. inconceivable) and allow any knocked-up dipshit to flush her child out. Abortion is only permissible if the mother is in danger or the kid is a product of rape or incest. I think that a doctor (a qualified one, dammit) should have to prove that one of the three aforementioned instances apply, and then, only then, should the mother end the life of the child, and in sanitary, safe conditions. go to www.abortiontv.com, and you'll see what i mean about how bad abortion is. life starts from conception. abortion murders a human being. the mother feels it. the child feels it. and whatever divine force there may be, that force will punish those who condone and participate in abortion.

anyway, kerry will fuck it all up. even his face makes me wish to do violence against him, that smirking, look-at-me-i'm-so-awesome-please-make-me-require-facial-reconstruction-surgery look that you see so often. argh. i hate him. he'll fuck up this country. mark my words.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 03:54 PM

Thanks, OG.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 03:46 PM

I think the CIA is bogged down so bad they are screwing up big time.

The CIA is evidently concentrating on preventing attacks in the US instead of worring about old intelligence in other countrys.

With more people in the world doing more bad things there is an intelligence overload in all countrys.

One thing that will shed some light on how Al Qaeda is being financed is the investigation into the Oil For Food scandal. I think it will connect all of the dots between the UN, Saddam, Syria, Russia, France, Germany and Al Qaeda.

The UN is doing everything they can to block the investigation.

Just my opinion, subject to correction.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 10:35 AM

Thanks for the link, OG -- looks like I had that camp located in the wrong place. I am also a bit confused by the information on Slaman Pak -- if the stories of terrorist training there, and direct connection to Saddam of part of the camp, have not been discreidted, why is the administration not mentioning them? If they are true, they aree critical tot he adminisitrations defense against serious charges, but they aren't being trotted out. Strange.

What do you make of that?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 10:24 AM

Arial shot of the 707:
http://cshink.com/images/salman_pak3b.jpg
http://cshink.com/salman_pak.htm

"Salman Pak, a training camp on the Tigris River some 15 miles southeast of Iraq's capital"
http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock040303.asp

"Salman Pak - Iraq's own terrorist training camp
Two Iraqi Military defectors, an unnamed former Lt. General and a Captain Sabah Khodada recently gave details of an Iraqi school at Salman Pak which includes training for the hijacking of passenger airliners and other modes of transportation. The former Iraqi General said that there was a old Boeing 707 resting next to rail tracks on edge of Salman Pak being used in terrorist training, the existence of this aircraft has been confirmed by UN. Inspectors.

The General, who had been the Security Officer in charge of the camp also reported that there were mixed nationality units including Saudi's, Egyptians and Chechens at Salman Pak. Usually about 40 strong, these terrorist units received upto five months of intensive training. However the terrorist units were actually under the control of Iraq's Al- Mukhabarat Intelligence Service and in particular a section called the Division of Special Operations. Much of this was also confirmed by Captain Khodada.

The foreign fighters were segregated from Iraqi military personnel and Saddam Husseins own Fedayeen, except during certain specific training sessions. The overall training program included assassination, kidnapping, sabotage or hijacking of aircraft, buses, trains, sabotage of public utilities and most importantly of all, in the use of Chemical, Biological and possibly crude nuclear devices.

However, the training also included how to prepare and carry out suicide attacks and involved how to get access to the flight cabin, getting weapons on board, security weakness, terrorizing the passengers and crew. Captain Khodada stated " Those 'Arabs' are real volunteers. They come in small numbers, and they come with the intention to do some real suicidal operations. "
http://www.intelmessages.org/Messages/National_Security/wwwboard/messages/826.html

Just lies planted by pro Bush goons. I guess.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 07:59 AM

There is only one fact that indicates terrorist training was going on in Iraq, which was the existence ofthe camp you mentioned above in (I believe) northwestern extreme of Iraq, close tot he Iranian border. My understanding is that far from being sponsored by Iraq's government, this part of the cou try wasn't even under Saddam's control. Correct meif I am wrong.


Links for Al Qaeda with Iraqw all seem to boil down to one or two meetings. IDeologically and operationally the two were far apart from each other.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 02:31 AM

The Gwynne Roberts film:
http://www.rwfilms.co.uk/filmssus.html

Utter tripe of course but tell me I am wrong and I will change my opinion.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 02:13 AM

All I know is everybody claims Bush said Saddam was connected to the 9/11 attacks. Some even say he said Saddam was responsible. I can't find evidence that he said either so I will go along with popular opinion.

If someone can prove the negative I will change my mind.

Some Propaganda says there was a connection but I can't believe it. It can't possibly be true:

"According to the New York Times, which has never editorialized its belief in an Al Qaeda-Iraq connection, has disclosed details of an Iraqi intelligence paper that discusses the Baghdad-bin Laden "relationship," as well as plans for bin Laden to work with Iraq against the ruling family in Saudi Arabia, the latter nation the birthplace of bin Laden."
"The Iraqi-Al-Qaeda plan to disrupt the House of Saud did not end when bin Laden left the oil-rich kingdom in 1996. Hayes notes a top-secret CIA report summarized in a Pentagon memo sent to the Senate Intelligence Committee in the fall of 2003: "The Saudi Arabian National Guard went on a kingdom-wide heightened state of alert in late December 2000 after learning that Saddam agreed to assist Al-Qaeda in attacking U.S. and U.K. interests in Saudi Arabia."

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/7/11/154020.shtml

PBS even makes the connection:

Richard Perle: This evidence is very powerful. There is collaboration between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda, which means to destroy us. It entails chemical weapons, biological weapons, training in their application. And he's working on nuclear weapons. The message is very clear - we have no time to lose, Saddam must be removed from office. Every day that goes by is a day in which we are exposed to dangers on a far larger scale than the tragedy of September 11.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/saddam/transcript3.html

James P. Rubin: But let's focus in on the materials. The UN came out of Iraq in 1998 and issued a report and guesstimated that there were tens of thousands of missing tons of chemical material and hundreds of liters of biological agent. Those are sitting there now. That's what the threat is. What is the best way, in your opinion, to prevent that material from falling into the hands of the Al Qaeda people in the film he's already trained?
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/saddam/transcript5.html

James P. Rubin: Well, you've just seen Gwynne Roberts' film. And it raises some very explosive charges. I wonder if you could help us connect the dots. Why should the American people be concerned and what should they think having seen this film?

Richard Perle: Well, the thing that is brought home so clearly in this film is the connection among terrorist organizations now implicating Saddam Hussein directly with Al Qaeda, with a global terrorist movement that ultimately wishes to destroy the United States. What I think we're discovering is that terrorists, like criminals, are in touch with one another around the globe. I think if a safe cracker in Phoenix needs a safe cracker in Manchester, England, somehow they connect (Laughs). And the terrorists are connecting. They're working together, they're reinforcing one another, and they're sharing their tradecraft. And the result is that if we are going to prevail over the terrorists, we have to take them seriously wherever they are and we have to take this war to them in their countries, on their territory. Because if we have to stand and fight on our own territory, many Americans will die in the process.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/saddam/transcript.html

I watched the Gwynne Roberts film mentioned above on PBS that preceeded the Rubin / Perle interview. It included interviews Iraqis who said they witnessed Osama and Al Zawahiri visiting a terrorist training camps in Iraq:
Two other men are filmed with their backs to the camera or lurking in shadows. A man who is now a prisoner of the Kurds claims he was an Iraqi intelligence agent and says that Aymar Al Zawahiri, Mr. bin Laden's second in command, met with Mr. Hussein in Iraq in 1992.
Even more alarming claims come from an Iraqi whom Mr. Roberts tracks down in Turkey, his identity disguised by a jittery camera in a hotel room that shows his hands, his feet, never his face. He says he worked in a chemical weapons factory near Baghdad and that he actually saw Mr. bin Laden visit a terrorist training camp in Iraq in 1998, when Al Queda members were about to "graduate" from its program."
http://www.rwfilms.co.uk/press1.html

The the Gwynne Roberts film featured aerial shots of the training camp showing a 707 for training. It was made out of junk parts as evidenced by wings that did not match.

PBS does not know what the hell they are talking about. No way Jose, Saddam did not train any Al Qaeda terrorists nor did he have any WMDs, period, case closed. I just saw Edwards say so on TV.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:50 PM

Good link.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 09:01 PM

Clinton refered to an axis:

On February 17, 1998, President Clinton, speaking at the Pentagon, warned of the "reckless acts of outlaw nations and an unholy axis of terrorists, drug traffickers and organized international criminals." These "predators of the twenty-first century," he said, these enemies of America, "will be all the more lethal if we allow them to build arsenals of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and missiles to deliver them. We simply cannot allow that to happen. There is no more clear example of this threat than Saddam Hussein's Iraq."

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/274fwxli.asp?pg=2

However I don't have the ability to recognise when I am wrong so I could be wrong.

I have to go watch Chaney get his ass kicked now. I know Edwards will win because he and Kerry can fix everything while Bush and his partner in crime, Chaney are just liars.

I might be wrong though.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 02:22 PM

You make me smile, OG. Careful you don't pierce your cheek with your tongue when you write these posts!

A) "I could possibly be wrong and I am ready to change my mind any time I find out I am wrong...". The thing is, OG, this requires the ability to recognise that they have been wrong, before they can accept it and then change their mind. Simply putting facts in front of someone is not sufficient. The human mind can be extremely agile in avoiding the unpleasantly obvious, a kind of "flight or fight".

So, simply making that statement above - tongue in cheek as it is anyway - does not prove that you would know "when you are wrong". It's a fence painted to look like a gate.

B) "Everybody knows Bush lied when he said Saddam was directly involved in the 9/11 attack. I haven't been able to see evidence that he said it anywhere but I know it must be true. All the cocky bastard knows how to do is lie."

Ah, there you go again. It's that word "directly" that you inserted ever-so-carefully. Because I scanned this thread, albeit rather hastily, and I could not find anyone posting here that was claiming that Bush said that.

However, Bush did put Iraq at head of his Axis of Evil, and made Saddam his focus in attacking Iraq post 9/11. Did he not? And in doing so, was he not inferring INDIRECT involvement of Saddam and Iraq in 9/11? Otherwise, why was he so hellbent on going there (hellbent to the extent of casting aside the UN until he needed their cloak of respectability, much later)? The Iraq war was part of the Crusade against terrorism, was it not?

And if he did infer indirect involvement, which to date has not been proven (not inferred, not deduced, not assumed, but proven - as in "with facts that withstand scrutiny"), was he not dishonest in the first place?

As indeed I believe you may be, OG. The only mitigating factor I can think of would be the inability to recognise when one is wrong, which many of us suffer from. Because to be truly dishonest one needs to have the knowledge of the truth in the first place, and perhaps you don't.

Or perhaps it is me, and others here, who do not see the obvious. It can happen. But a proverb where I come from says "If one laughs on his own, he's a fool. If two people laugh, they may know something".

Whatever. Thank you for posting all those links regarding sattelite dishes, I will check them when I have time.

Meanwhile, keep at it, OG. You clearly have time on your hands.

And truth has time on its side.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 01:45 PM

I said it was probably lies like this one:

The 9/11 Commission reports that in March 1998 two al Qaeda members visited Baghdad. And in July 1998, "an Iraqi delegation traveled to Afghanistan to meet first with the Taliban and then with bin Laden."

It does not prove anything.

Everybody knows Bush lied when he said Saddam was directly involved in the 9/11 attack. I haven't been able to see evidence that he said it anywhere but I know it must be true. All the cocky bastard knows how to do is lie.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/12/kerry.powell.iraq/

But I could possibly be wrong and I am ready to change my mind any time I find out I am wrong.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 12:49 PM

OG:

There were clear ties between the chemical plant and Iraq.

There were clear ties between the chemical plant and AL Qaeda.

So the Sudan was doing business with both parties one way or another.

But this does not demonstrate ties between Al Quaeda and Iraq. Secular social governments like Hussein's were anathema to bin Laden's Muslim extremists.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 12:41 PM

Of course Iraqis want Kerry to win...Bush invaded them and smashed up their country! I imagine they would favour ANY alternative to Bush at this point. In that respect, they feel much like the majority of people do in virtually every other country in the World right now except maybe for Israel.

Bush is the devil they already know all too well, and they DON'T want him back for another term. Kerry is the devil they don't know yet, so they figure, why not give him a try? He might turn out to be better than Bush. :-) It's as simple as that.

If Hitler had had a runoff election with some other German politician in, say, 1942...(just assuming it could have happened)...would the Belgians, Dutch, Russians, Yugoslavs, British, and French have wanted Hitler to win??????????   I don't think so. They would have favoured a change in German leadership, any change, anyone else whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 12:09 PM

Take a look this hogwash:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/527uwabl.asp

It is probably just Bush propaganda like all those lies about WMWDs.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:57 AM

Ah, sorry. I was taking you seriously.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:48 AM

That is why Kerry is so right for our country. He re-evaluates the situation and and changes his position as necessary.

He will run every course of action past the UN and seek their blessing before taking action. That way we cannot possibly step on anybody's toes, even the ones that could be making money off of a situation that might de detrimental to the US.

You know thw kind of situation like when two non benefiting countries are trying to contain a brutal dictator while other countries are getting payoffs from the brutal dictator.

That sort of thing would never happen if Kerry was in charge.

I could stand to be corrected on this.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:33 AM

A smart person is not afraid to change his mind after he re-evaluates the situation

Old Guy:

You have redeemed yourself (not that you really needed to) in my book with that one sentence.


My biggest irritation with Bush is his frequent apparent unwillingness to review his own actions and opinions.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:17 AM

I don't know if theses sources are approved or not but here are a few:

http://www.charleston.net/stories/051703/ter_17satellite.shtml
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0429/p06s01-woiq.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/05/iraq-030528-rfel-163456.htm
http://www.spacewar.com/2004/040312041539.6t3c7l1v.html
http://www.dailyherald.com/special/iraq/wwi_paststory.asp?intID=3779791

Here are some links to the alleged oil for food scandal. I am not saying any of them are true. They could all be pro Bush propaganda.

http://www.brookesnews.com/040202saddamsbribes.html
http://www.washtimes.com/world/20040503-123158-1229r.htm
http://www.iht.com/articles/541766.html
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/nation/9779443.htm?1c

Of course that Iraqi newspaper could not have published that list of 270 oil voucher recipients if that swaggering cowboy, Bush and his gang of henchmen had not falsified the edivence to invade Iraq. Kerry would have done the same thing in a more sensitive manner working thru the UN instead of working against the UN, Russia, Germany and France.

Of course I could be wrong about all of this. A smart person is not afraid to change his mind after he re-evaluates the situation.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 09:50 AM

OG,

never mind all that other stuff - in your last post you state "there were no (sattelite) dishes allowed (in Iraq) before Bush removed Saddam from power".

Where on God's earth DID you get that fact?

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 02:34 AM

OG--

When you open a thread with a challenge like "Kerry is an arrogant asshole," there's not much chance you'll get a reasoned discussion. "Asshole" in this case is not a *description* of Kerry, it's an expression of *how you feel about him,* and there's no use discussing it. If that's how you feel, it's how you feel.

So the discussion comes down to "Is not!" "Is too!" and the ill-will increases. And I have gotten sucked in as much as anyone and contributed my share but I think I'll quit.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 01:47 AM

I read an article that says Iraqis want Kerry to win. Iraqis watched the debate on satellite TV. Now they know how Kerry will do everything right. Lets give them Kerry. Then the Iraq problem will be solved.
http://www.iraq4u.com/applications/news/anmviewer.asp?a=1525&z=13

Note that there were no dishes allowed until that arrogant asshole Bush removed Saddam from power. But we all know that Kerry would have done the same thing only better.

Or then again I could be wrong.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 01:11 AM

Regardless of who gets more votes in a particular state, it is ridiculous that that state should have ALL its electors vote for the single candidate with the most votes! It's an outrageous thing to do, and it should be unconstitutional. The electors should proportionately representate the voters. If 45% of the votes vote for Bush, 46% vote for Gore, and 9% vote for Nader, for example, and there are 20 electors, then it should be counted as...

9 electors for Bush
9 electors for Gore
2 for Nader

That would be something at least resembling a democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Nerd
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 01:20 PM

Old Guy is using a more passive-aggressive strategy now is all. I doubt he's changed his views. But that's okay, I forgive him. And as he will tell you, I am always right! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 12:54 PM

Ebbie:

OG is taking the piss, as the Yuks like to say. Either that or he is boirn again enlightened and has seen the light, or he is suffering from multiple personalities.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 12:50 PM

Old Guy, does anyone else have access to your computer?

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 09:24 AM

"Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris refused to certify some of those recounts..."

Harris was also the head of the Bush Campaign in Florida. Conflict of interest? You decide!

Oh most definitely a conflict of interest. You are right again.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 04:40 AM

we had an election like that once in England where the guy who got least votes won handsomely due to our first past the post system. 1966.

Its just one of those things in democracy. An anomaly.

One of our major parties (the Liberals ) have hardly any seats in parliament because of it. Its not fair at all.

I can't help thinking perhaps like us you need electoral reform that's all - don't give up on democracy. Can't think of anything better off hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Nerd
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 01:39 AM

"Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris refused to certify some of those recounts..."

Harris was also the head of the Bush Campaign in Florida. Conflict of interest? You decide!

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 12:14 AM

messidge number 200!

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 12:12 AM

Mr Nerd:

You are absolutely right. If the screwed up overvotes had been counted, which were mostly for Gore, Gore would have won.

It is my personal opinion (which is probably different from yours) is that it is even possible that if Gore had not initiated legal challenges he might have won.

SP Times: "Both Gore and Bush lost votes because voters marked the ballot beside their favorite's name and then wrote Bush or Gore in elsewhere, crossed out all other candidates besides the one they wanted, or tried to correct a mistake and then vote again on the same ballot.

Those overvotes were Gore's best hope, but in the wake of the butterfly ballot controversy, the Gore team barely discussed overvotes and its lawyers never argued in court to count them.

"Nobody asked for a contest of the overvotes," Gore lawyer David Boies told the U.S. Supreme Court in the last hearing.

The media analysis shows that among those 3,690 overvotes that could be considered legitimate votes, 6 out of 10 were cast for Gore.

Instead of pursuing overvotes, the Gore team sought manual recounts of undervotes in four counties: Miami-Dade, Broward, Palm Beach and Volusia counties.

At the time, it sounded like a good idea. Gore already led in those four counties, and he figured to pick up votes at a faster rate than Bush in a hand recount. But Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris refused to certify some of those recounts and wouldn't allow time for all of them to be completed.

Even with a recount of just those four counties, the media analysis shows, Gore still would have lost by 225 votes."

http://www.sptimes.com/News/111201/Lostvotes/Recount__Bush.shtml

In any event whatever you say is correct.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Nerd
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 11:30 PM

Old Guy,

Well, NOW you have found the evidence to back up some of your claims. That wasn't so hard, was it?

However, if you actually READ the sp times article, rather than just the headline, it says that Bush would have won if the recounts had proceeded under the rules they were using, but that Gore actually got more votes. It essentially claims that the recount procedure was bad, not that Bush should be president.

Anyway, good luck with your vote! You've STILL been an arrogant you-know what on this thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 10:48 PM

Old Guy:

I think it would be wise, and I appreciate the effort.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 10:38 PM

And by the way you're STILL distorting the truth:

"Several News organizations got together and financed a big study of the Ballots. They all agreed that Bush won."

First of all, everyone knows that Bush "won," whatever that means. It's his ass on the White House toilet, right? But did he get more votes? SHOULD he have won? That's the question these organizations were asking.

As I pointed out, only TWO news organizations got together and did one study that found that Bush got more votes, while another group of an undetermined number of news organizations, including the St. Petersburg Times, found that Bush got fewer votes.

SP Times: "If the recounts had proceeded, who would have won the presidency? The answer is Bush."
http://www.sptimes.com/News/111201/Lostvotes/Recount__Bush.shtml

CNN: "The National Opinion Research Center (NORC) at the University of Chicago conducted the six-month study for a consortium of eight news media companies, including CNN...

...The National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago study was commissioned by eight media companies -- The Associated Press, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, CNN, the St. Petersburg Times, The Palm Beach Post, The Washington Post and the Tribune Co., which includes the Los Angeles Times, Chicago Tribune, the Orlando Sentinel and Baltimore Sun, as well as other papers.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/florida.ballots/stories/main.html

But this doesn't matter to you. You'll happily claim that they both support your position, because you have been intellectually dishonest throughout this exchange.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 10:27 PM

He is a sure clone from the county he was named for

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Cluin
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 10:21 PM

You should have to be able to pass a basic civics exam before you get to cast a vote anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 10:15 PM

I have seen the light. I have been saved. I am going to vote for Kerry for 2 reasons.

#1 This election is going to be so close that there is going to be a battle even worse than the one over the last presidential election. Fighting in the streets? Riots? Military Coups? Martial law? I would like to avoid that from happening. Both sides are assembling teams of lawyers to contest the results in any state.

#2. I want Mr. non-asshole Kerry to fix everything he says is broke like he says he will. God and/or Allah help him if he does not.

Something tells me the nastiest attacks from both rival gangs are being saved for the day before election day.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 10:09 PM

Yup, the whole dang situation is pretty discouraging, all right, Old Guy. You know, I do NOT expect politicians to solve my problems. Not any more. Matter of fact, I expect them to CAUSE a goodly number of my problems, but I intend to have a good life anyway in spite of them.

Modern elections have turned into a shameful process. The electoral college should be dissolved. Polling should not be allowed to be reported on at all in the media. The political parties should all be disbanded. Everyone who runs for office should be an independent.

None of the above will happen, though, because there is too much money invested in maintaining things as they already are.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 10:05 PM

John Kerry has done nothing to qualify for the label asshole. He has been scandalously maligned with intentional false reports in the press, but no-one has come up with any hard facts that justify this label.

Bush, on the other hand, has done plenty to earn the opprobrium and be labeled an asshole. For one thing he is only semi-literate, and is consciously anti-thought.

For another thing he has needlessly sacrificed hundreds of human lives for no clear purpose and pretended it was all otherwise. If being murderous without need and being intentionally unreflective and unthoughtful does not qualify one for the label asshole, I just don't know. We need a new dictionary.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Peace
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 09:28 PM

He really is an asshole, a stupid, vacillating, ungodly asshole.

Too true. That's why it would be a better idea to vote for Kerry.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Morticalia
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 09:17 PM

Amen. He really is an asshole, a stupid, vacillating, ungodly asshole. Mark my words, he'll be excommunicated from the Catholic church if he gets elected and pulls that "abortion for every crack whore off the streets" shit.

Bush isn't great, but with this year's election, its all about choosing the lesser of two evils.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 01:21 PM

Am I being intellectually dishonest when I say I am disgusted with the American system of politics as it stands right now?

This looks like a very healthy sort of honesty to me. And I am in complete agreement with you about the American system of politics right now. I, too, would like to see the big money removed from the equation, and also the political parties and their party machines, and partisan politics. Our system is broken and it needs to be fixed.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 10:49 AM

Old Guy:

CLoser to the truth, I would say. I am sure he is not an asshole. I am sure Iraq is a mess. Disrespect of others' beliefs is certainly behind the problems in the Middle East, no mistake.

A