BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:35 PM

Peace, I was that Guest,,,hadn't noticed cookie expiration.
Amos, was that JQ Adams or Cleveland? Those names come to my mind, so it was probably neither.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 06:47 PM

"Peace, you may enjoy this."

Thank you, Guest. I did. This world is gettin' crazier and crazier . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Rowan
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 05:24 PM

Yes, Amos; they were suitably awed.

As was I. And I noticed that AgSci students were always impeccably behaved around the Botany School after that lecture and for the next few years. Maggie retired sseveral years after that and later became Chancellor of Melbourne Uni, but I suspect I'm one of very few people (apart from the students) who knew of her abilities in that regard.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 05:14 PM

What an awesome display that must have been!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Rowan
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 05:12 PM

Could explain my crappy celery though.
Liz, perhaps you should have tried to find, quickly, whether you had an ancestor named "Celerity"?

Amos
You've just reminded me of a lecturer I had at uni. Maggie had been a major in the army during WWII, was a member of the Soroptemists, had a (usually friendly but) forceful and large presence and specialised in genetics. The second year Ag Sci students were a rowdy bunch, as they spent the week stuck on a teaching farm at Derrimut, away from the city and came up to the Melbourne campus only one day a week for lectures and pracs in particular subjects; genetics was one such subject.

One week, Maggie was absent for this lecture and delegated Ilma to give it in her place. Ilma was tiny, petite in manner and stature, and unused to rowdiness. The Ag students rode roughshod over her for the entire lecture, with such noise that I came out of my lab to find out what was going on; I was merely a postgrad student at the time but was still concerned. Ilma left the lecture in tears and I took her away for a cup of tea.

Maggie sought me out after she returned and I told her what had happened. "Right!" she said. "I'll fix them!"

At the appointed time for that lecture the following week, I stood outside the back door of the lecture theatre (it was highly raked) and watched Maggie describe their behaviour as appallingly uncivilised, that the following material was going to be the topic of several questions on the exam paper and then proceeded to give one lecture orally, while writing another with her right hand on one end of the board and, simultaneously, write yet another with her left hand on the other end of the board.

Spectacular!

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 04:28 PM

One of our Victorian (or thereabouts) Presidents -- I forget which -- was capable of reading in English while doing simultaneous translation into written Greek with his right hand, and written Latin with his left hand, one pen in each. Or so I have been told. This is the kind of mental acuity and discipline we need in tomorrow's thinkers.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 02:49 PM

I am the Guest at 02:44pm. For some reason my cookie had expired...happy to say I hadn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 02:44 PM

Great article, Amos, and fortuitously timed...Mudcat leads the way.
I took particular note, from the article, that President Bush studied studied Latin, and soon after he left school the study of Latin began its decline. The guy gets blamed for everything!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 11:23 AM

An eloquent argument for the retun of Latin to the American school curriculum can be found in the Times.

It outlines succinctly why it is (or would be) of benefit, and offers heros worth emulating (and some not) who were steeped in the mysteries of Roman discourse in the original.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 03:12 AM

"Right Wright, write 'right' right, right away!"

Lettuce was the accepted spelling of Letitia for many a century... comes as a bit of a shock when you think your great great great aunt was a salad.

Could explain my crappy celery though.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Slag
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 03:05 AM

That was real neighborly of you Joe, to give fair warning and not just pull the rug out from under the poor guy. Very nice.

No past tense? We should then continue this thread in present and future tense only. Time is motion and if you turn around to look at where you is then that is also a new motion and so is also in the present (tense). So there really is nothing but the present. Motion defines the present and there is no good to come from mourning something that is not there.

Do you catch the movie "Memento"? a very here-and-now reel.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 11:03 PM

Put a dozen on a scrimmage line against them Green Bays and we'll see if there's a difference.

VIVA la difference!



A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 10:21 PM

Peace, you may enjoy this. A story in today's Los Angeles Times sports section regarding the lack of female coaches in college, refers to R. Vivian Acosta, a researcher in this field, as, "professor EMERITA [caps mine] at...Brooklyn College."

In an age when we frequently use gender neutral terms, firefighter, server, actor (irrespective of sex), alumni (rather than alumnus/alumna) I think the author's use of the Latin feminine form for the retired reflects on what the problem in sports may be. Females are still often perceived as different from male counterparts.

---

Please note that anonymous posting is no longer allowed at Mudcat. Use a consistent name [in the 'from' box] when you post, or your messages risk being deleted.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 04:06 PM

"I not wanting to offend the distaff sex [meaning female]"

Though that one might slip by, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 07:47 PM

Makes perfect sense to me, Amos. Remember, he who forgets the past has only the future to look forward to, provided he can move on from the present. He could be she, I not wanting to offend the distaff sex...er gender.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 04:32 PM

"Yesterday, all my troubles seemed so, uh, they wented somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 04:24 PM

From a parody paper called The Onion:

Underfunded Schools Forced To Cut Past Tense From Language Programs

NOVEMBER 30, 2007 | ISSUE 43•48



WASHINGTON—Faced with ongoing budget crises, underfunded schools nationwide are increasingly left with no option but to cut the past tense—a grammatical construction traditionally used to relate all actions, and states that have transpired at an earlier point in time—from their standard English and language arts programs.

A part of American school curricula for more than 200 years, the past tense was deemed by school administrators to be too expensive to keep in primary and secondary education.

"This was by no means an easy decision, but teaching our students how to conjugate verbs in a way that would allow them to describe events that have already occurred is a luxury that we can no longer afford," Phoenix-area high-school principal Sam Pennock said. "With our current budget, the past tense must unfortunately become a thing of the past."

In the most dramatic display of the new trend yet, the Tennessee Department of Education decided Monday to remove "-ed" endings from all of the state's English classrooms, saving struggling schools an estimated $3 million each year. Officials say they plan to slowly phase out the tense by first eliminating the past perfect; once students have adjusted to the change, the past progressive, the past continuous, the past perfect progressive, and the simple past will be cut. Hundreds of school districts across the country are expected to follow suit.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:52 AM

Rowan:

We have routinely surrendered the seat of public influence to the illiterate, the incompetent, and the dishonest; one of the three was responsible for "different than".


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 03:51 AM

Wrought, wreaked, wrecked... or is it rorted?

:-)


"the govt, the parliament and the local footie team were singular institutions."

They are often 'single-minded' I will admit... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Rowan
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:56 PM

Brought up in the language at a time when wrought iron was both common and frequently encountered, I always regarded "wrought" as the correct, if irregular, past participle of "wreak". These days there are many broadcasters who cause my ears to flinch with the more regular, but less felicitous, "wreaked".

And whenever I see "there are a number of things" I flinch again. Like John, I suspect. If the example is in an assignment from a student I usually suggest "there are several things" as a substitution. But then, I was brought up to believe the govt, the parliament and the local footie team were singular institutions.

And while we're on the notion of pond separations, I was taught
"compared with", "similar to" and "different from". I believe this construction came to Oz from Britain; given Britain is also where the US got much of its English, I'm interested to learn how the US arrived at "different than".

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:26 PM

Yeah, Amos, "Terrible", like an Abrahams Fighting Vehicle... but with a little more subtelty...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 08:51 PM

All this delight in the non-uniformity of English is missing entirely the terrible beauty of the language. Terrible, because it requires great exposure and attention to be able to use well; but beautifl in its capacity for nuances, shades of meaning, and the wealth of varying human experiences it can capture and relay.

The trick is to understand the provenance of the different usages and forms. Yiddish injected great color and vivacity into the language, but its shades of form and meaning make no sense if you are expecting High German or Romance configurations in your words. The fact that two entirely different channels of meaning (for a random example, "band" as a retaining ring and as an ensemble of musicians) can over time evolve into one form should be perfectly natural to one who knows how usages evolve. The fact that colloquialisms like "burn down" and "burn up" an end up in circulation at the same time is cause for rejoicing, not declamation of the irrationality of the language.

Language reflects the color, passion, sensibilities and challenges of those who live with it. So it only gets purely rational in some rare areas of engineering and science; anywhere else, and the demand for consistency would be a bane and a chokehold on the bouquet of rich cognitive realms which language maps for us. The lack of uniformity, puzzling as all Hades to an outsider, is part of the wealth, and can be quickly shared with a little study.

My position on the issue, therefore, is sod off and let her fly.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 08:47 PM

In the thread "Solar Post Light: Suggestions?"

Donuel said that he "ran a black extension cord up the back side"

..........

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Slag
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 08:08 PM

Good job Amos (Hebrew for "burden")!   Ye-or-yah (George, Greek ['ellenika] for "farmer") terrible "lettuce" joke. Bad cabbage.

Here is something to consider: Primitive, stone-age cultures such as the American Indian, the Australian Aborigines, and so on, wore their symbols on their bodies in paint or tattoos or both and they also transferred some of these symbols to cave walls, clothing or desert rocks. They participated in and closely identified with those symbols. It appears that the Egyptians, while wearing some symbols had moved them almost exclusively to walls and tablets and papyrus and we see a proto-written language emerge. A good dictionary will demonstrate the origins of our symbols/letters and you have to ask yourself if we still carry those strong identifications as the primitives did/do? I say yes! T-shirts with messages, signet rings, tattoos (yet), face paint. Is all language metaphor? Are words worth fighting for? Dying for? What then is meaning? All the stuff of philosophy (love of wisdom). Jesus said "I am the Alpha and the O-mega". Interesting indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 12:03 PM

   Here he is
          |
          |________ an hour before my important dinner,
          |                                        |
          |                with some of the most wealthy and exclusive people in New York 
          |                                                           |
          |                                                expected at any moment
  (refusing to put on his dress-clothes) and 
  (saying) 
    |
    |___(that all a man needs is)______________________________
                     |_(that is a man)                              | 
                          (to shoot his bison) and (cut off a steak) and (eat it ) 
                                                                         |_ (by the light of the western stars.)
  
  
  

---

I am sure the connectors will get all scrambled, but you get the general diea.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 11:18 AM

Quite so, John. No sense doing things half-way, is there? If one is intent on creating a collective noun, one should make it completely collective. It is A team, after all, not a "teams". If we depart from this sterling principle, we will not be able to pronounce what the Gummint should do in the singular tradition, as so many half-witted citizens no do.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 10:57 AM

What I get a kick out of is how the British approach collective nouns, eg, 'the team have to play hard'-team as a third person plural vis-a-vis the American, 'the team has to play hard'-where team is treated as a singular noun.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:57 AM

"Alan Titchmarsh has written a number of gardening books; does that mean he's a man of lettuce? "

George, that was BAD!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:56 AM

Intersting that the minute we start divorcing cognitive experience from the language with which we cloak it, everyone goes a bit loopy, eh?

Even queasy.

Low tolerance for footloose conscious experience? Untrammeled awareness a bit much? Feeling an urge to slam new vocabulary back into place in an effort to fill in the hole in the sea-wall, are we?

Hmmmmm. Dot isch veddy normal. Not to vorry.


Liebenscheiss
Analyst undt Iatrist to der Mudcat Vorld

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:09 AM

There's a vegetarian church in town where the minister says, "Lettuce pray". They're a pretty radishcal bunch, who don't carrot all for some of the other churches. In fact, they turnip their noses as the Lutherans, feeling down to their marrow that they are holier. There was a schism recently though, with some of the parishioners screaming at the Pasture, "You fraud! Yukon Gold from us and russet our cattle!"

I'd let you know how this theological skirmish ends, but I'm making my self sick to my stomach.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 08:58 AM

Why were they spelling the Latin niger (black) in Greek, rather than using the Greek work (melanos)? Is it an insult to call a Black person a Melon?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 07:11 AM

AAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 06:50 AM

I'd go and lie in a darkened room - but would that make me more believable?

So many questions...so little time...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 06:48 AM

(Sorry, bored to tears at work)
Is houmous an aphrodisiac? It must be, otherwise why call it "houmous erectus"?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 06:44 AM

I think I'm getting the hang of it now (ATASTTB)...

Alan Titchmarsh has written a number of gardening books; does that mean he's a man of lettuce?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 06:42 AM

And does the neighbour's tomcat think "lettuce spray", before he does so all over our veggie patch?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 06:40 AM

Lettuce just doesn't taste as good in the UK, as it used to in Greece when I was a kid. Should I ask my sister to send me some in the post, now and then? And would that be lettuce from home?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 06:10 AM

Slag - "...and I wished they would have expanded..."

Another example of American v British English grammar!
"...and I wished they had expanded..." is how that is phrased on this Eastern side of the pond.

Best wishes D

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 04:10 AM

Surely nailing down a shift would prevent the lady from running away!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Slag
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 05:13 PM

That was incendiary Amos! Lettuse sea...Hmmm? If a word like "flivver" disappears from the language, it may be because the object itself has disappeared. Another scenario might be that the word has mutated in some way or a deeper meaning or understanding has replaced it. The very real terror of sea monsters seems to no longer exist but sharks and such DO have my complete respect!

The dreaded "N" word has had many transformations. In the Book of Acts chapter 13 verse 1 we have "Simon called Niger". The Greek word is spelled nu (nee) iota (ee-o'-tah) gamma (y[n]e- amma) eta (ate-ah) rho (hu-roe'). Put it all together and it's pretty much pronounced the way the "N" word is pronounced today. The "g" part, the gamma in Greek is more like the "g" in "gyro"; the gyro sandwich. James L. Strong in "Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible" gives the pronunciation "neeg'-er" and it simply means "black". The point is that this was a perfectly acceptable word. What happened to it? The 2000 years of the history of the abuse of this people! As late as Mark Twain it was still pretty much an acceptable word but the Civil War, Reconstruction, Jim Crow, lynchings, etc. so tainted it that polite society and folks in general don't discuss it except perhaps in an academic sense such I have just done.

Language and grammar is a living thing shaped by time, circumstance and usage. Variety and change used to occur mostly because of geographical isolation, tribalism and such. Today, with instantaneous communication fad and technology seem to have the greater influence.

The argot of the street urchins in the movie (one of my all time favorites btw) "Blade Runner" was very interesting to me and I wished they would have expanded more upon that. The James Olmos character seemed to have a fluent understanding of it. Nailing down exactly where and when a shift or a change takes place I find extremely interesting and culturally significant. Good thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Rowan
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 05:10 PM

Amos, I presume anything is capable of burning at high enough temperature (your caveat aside) means we can ignore the one Liz omitted

nonflammable

My smartypants remarks aside, it is precisely such confusion that has caused most who have to deal with hazardous substances (some of which may burn in the context of normal use) to limit modern warning signs to read either "flammable" or "nonflammable".

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 01:56 PM

Flammable--capable of burning.
Inflammable -- capable of being set alight and then burning.
Non-inflammable -- not readily capable of being set alight.
Fireproof -- not capable of burning.


Of course anything is capable of burning at high enough temperature, so you have to take thes emeanings in the context of normal use.

A word may disappear from use, but that will not change the cognitive stream previosuly associated with it. However it will reduce the strength of agreement surrounding those cognitive events and therefore tend to make them become suppressed (as unexpressible, and not likely to be approved by others). It is the social fabric that changes, not the basic experiential fabric, which by nature is much richer and wider than can possibly be covered by agreed-on definitions.

It is a strange thing, and a bit of a sorrow to me, that we tend to block out from our consciousness things we cannot readily express to our peers. It puts the footing of individual thought on the wrong basis, requiring agreement to yield certainty, a very shaky and potentially treacherous basis indeed.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: autolycus
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 01:53 PM

The last words of the French grammarian Dominique Bouhours, died 1702, were,(in French)

"I am about to, or, I am going to die. Either expression is used."


    Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 01:15 PM

Last night I was reading a book by P.G. Wodehouse, that magician of syntax. I came across two sentences in a row that caused me to smile when I considered diagramming them.

1. Here he is, an hour before my important dinner, with some of the most wealthy and exclusive people in New York expected at any moment, refusing to put on his dress-clothes and saying that all a man that is a man needs is to shoot his bison and cut off a steak and eat it by the light of the western stars.

2. And what I want to know is what I am to do?



Sometimes I dream of sponsoring a Real People's Olympics, with competitions such as going into a huge supermarket and finding the toothpicks with dispatch and finesse. Another event could be diagramming sentences like these.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 10:23 AM

improving lettuce the Australian way?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 10:15 AM

Just what IS new and improved lettuce?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: clueless don
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 10:05 AM

This doesn't have anything to do with grammar, as far as I can tell, but two of my favorite examples of homophones (or almost homophones) are:

An event ran from 2:00 PM to 2:00 AM on consecutive days, so I told a friend that the event on the second day ran "from two to two too."

"He didn't have the mettle to meddle with my metal medal."

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: GUEST,LTS oretending to work
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 07:41 AM

A tihnkg can be:

Flammable.

Inflammable.

Non-inflammable... what the hell is with that anyway?!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 07:15 AM

"if a word disappears from usage (because it's banned or whatever) then the associated feelings, emotions etc also disappear with time. Sort of, if you don't name the thing, whatever it is, it ceases to exist."


Actually George, it's a good argument, but I think it falls down. The sentiments will still exist, but will be expressed in other phrasings, or other expressions will arise that carry most of the sentiments, even if the shading changes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Slag
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 06:44 AM

Language lives in the idiom!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 06:00 AM

Robin, I didn't miss the joke, but I thought I'd discovered it, when in fact someone else had put it there in the first place... Does that make sense? I'm too befuddled and under-caffeined right now.

It's a bugger of a language to pin down with rules (English, that is), and that's why I love it.

I read somewhere (can't remember where) the argument that if a word disappears from usage (because it's banned or whatever) then the associated feelings, emotions etc also disappear with time. Sort of, if you don't name the thing, whatever it is, it ceases to exist. I can't remember the details of the argument, but I was sold on it. So, a rich, flexible, descriptive language full of nuances makes for richer life experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Slag
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 02:16 AM

From the parsonage the Parson was parsimoniously parsing sentences with conviction to help the convict. The convict, serving his sentence, sent a self-serving sentence or two to the parole board too. The board was bored by the whole thing and tabled the motion because of the convict's boorish behavior on the whole while in the hole.

The fox walks on rocks as the hawk squawks at the auks.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Gurney
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 12:25 AM

Celtic roots in English? Just a very few words, surely.

And one Malayan word. Kris.

Chris.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 08:21 PM

Although far too elevated for this thread, this is as good a slot for the following quote as any:

"Linguistics is arguably the most hotly contested property in the academic realm. It is soaked with the blood of poets, theologians, philosophers, philologists, psychologists, biologists, and neurologists, along with whatever blood can be got out of grammarians."

Russ Rymer


Regards,


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 07:50 PM

"By the way, I won't start another thread, but at first I thought the title was "Is your Granma Up To Date?""


Ah George, you have missed the Joke... "The English Joke, Ha!"

You see, its got to do with homonyms - words that SOUND the same, (sometmes, but not always, spelled the same) but mean things different - and it's made more complex due to the differing accents... even in England!

Or did you really get the joke, and the real joke is that I missed that you didn't miss it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Rowan
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 04:50 PM

I find it interesting to compare the expansion of English as a global language with the contraction of French in that role. It now seems that, despite the activities of the French academy (or, perhaps, because of them) English seems now to be the lingua franca, even in France.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 09:08 AM

I have no problem at all using a language with its roots in Indo-European, Arabic, Latin, Choctaw, French, German, Dutch, Norse, Russian, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Tagalog, Thai, Hindi, Pushti, Urdu, Polynesian, Anglo, Saxon, P-Celt, Greek, Q-Celt, Welsh, Apache, Basque, Navajo, Spanish, and, for all I know, Klingon and Martian.

English is a vibrant, growing, language -- unlike Latin, for example, where the "new" words are forced constructs.

The French Academy might roil and fume, but the language as used by the people uses "le weekend" and not "fin de semaine." They either fight a losing battle or will have a dying language.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 02:32 AM

A bloody mess, yes, but so vibrant! Don't get me wrong, I must rail at least 10 times a day at someone or other's usage of the language, my Dad was a teacher and he taught me to lopve the rules of every and any language. And yet...they say mongrels are the strongest animals, perhaps this is also true of languages. Perhaps the French are not doing themselves a favour.

(By the way, I won't start another thread, but at first I thought the title was "Is your Granma Up To Date?")

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 09:16 PM

Bob,

There's been several VERY good books and shows on the history of English 'as she are spoke' - start looking at the BBC web site. A good working knowledge of English History (invasions, etc) helps a lot in understanding too :-)

My favourite bit - and still apparently used in some parts of the English countryside - is 'emp' - the root word of 'empty' - to 'unemp' is to fill... I unempted the barrow this morning, I'll empty it this arvo :-)

It's a 'creole' - a bloody mess, in other words, and the Celtic, Saxon, Latin, French etc, and bits of one are 'mungled in' to replace bits of earlier usage others (possible genuine confusion by speakers unfamiliar with their neighbour's different language ...) - perhaps not exactly the way you mention for that word, but you are getting the right idea...

What's made it worse is - unlike the French, who set up an Academy to 'preserve the purity of the language', and have had some degree of success - many self appointed English 'authorities' set up various sets of rules which they promoted, and had various success with various bits in various parts of society at various times, most of the speaking population have done just what they damn well please...

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 09:05 PM

Forget diagramming, try "treeing" sentences. We had to do that in a Linguistics class I took (grad level). You created a "phrase structure tree" in an attempt to derive the "meaning" of a sentence (instead of just reading it and guessing).

For example, you might tree the sentence:

"Holy shit! The place is on fire!"

in order to determine exactly WHAT the speaker meant to convey.

Likewise, the sentence:

"Put up your hands or I'll shoot you down like a dog!"

would, after being treed, give up its meaning. If you'd like to practice this, derive the meaning of the following sentences:

"If you touch me there again I'll break your goddamn arm."
"Let's get the f**k outa here!"
"Sorry about your dog, mister."
"Just shut the hell up, okay?"
"Now, maggot puke, drop and give me fifty and don't you EVER badmouth my Marine Corps again."

Isn't it nice to know that there is a way to find out just exactly what someone means?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Songster Bob
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 09:00 PM

"Do you herd sheep?" my Grandma said,
My Grandpa leaped in fright.
"That Grammer's wrong," he said,
"'Have you heard sheep' is right."

Of course, that was a simple homophone, showing how spoken English has its own problems.

One interesting thing to think about is the mixture of rules that came along with the borrowed languages English is composed from (if "composed" is the right word). For instance, I have a theory about verb tenses. Most are "regular," where the addition of "-ed" creates the past tense. But irregular verbs have their own rules, despite being "irregular." So you end up with ones where vowels change ("give" --> "gave," etc.), and ones with special endings ("spend" --> "spent"). This latter set of verbs is the subject of my theory. Ahem!

One of the most irregular of verbs is "go." You get "go" --> "went"? How did that happen? I assume that "went" came from "wend," a different word that means "go." But the past of "went" is "wended," indicating that "go" picked up the past of "wend" and that "wend" picked up the "-ed" of the regular set of verbs.

So:

Go --> Goed Went --> Went
became
Go --> Went Wend --> Wended

That's an interesting theory, anyway.

Eh?

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:45 PM

I always get wild Cartoonish (Wile E Coyote style) visions every time I read "Tear along dotted line"... no way - not enough room for me to got on there...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:31 PM

Diagramming also entailed using herring-bone diagrams to tag the modifiers t the principle parts or clauses and subdivide everything up into a fine mess.

I found it amusing. But mostly because it cracked me up I was being given free room and board just to sit around and do it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:30 PM

Yes...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:17 PM

That post above Neil's is for Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:15 PM

You got cash? Small unmarked bills?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Neil D
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:14 PM

If you like diagramming sentences, try doing one by Henry James...if you got a free day sometime.
How can bone and debone mean the same thing.
A panda walked into a bar, fired a gun and walked out, all because of an errant comma. See, he read a book that said a panda eats, shoots and leaves.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:13 PM

You got pics???

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:05 PM

"Now, as fir grammar???"

My gramper loved her. That's all I'm gonna say 'bout that.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:00 PM

Caution: Bobert "True Story" to follow:

Well, first of all, I ain't gonna go on recors has sayin' I is 'er ain't the worst of best speller 'er typer in history but forget all that stuff...

The year was 1971 and I had returned from my Jack Keroack "Lookin' for America" tour, cut my hair for the first time since, ahhhh, sometime 'round '66 and got a job teachin' 5 'n 6 combination in Northern Virgina... Not too sure exactly how that went down as I was certified to teach high school history and governemnt but it went down...

Here's where this diagramin' of sentences comes into the story... SDeesm that I didn't have to diagarm the sumabiches in college and the last time that I was expected to diagram the sumabiches was like, ahhhh, 11th grade and I got a not-so-gentleman's-D 'casue I didn't have a clue but...

...here I was a very stoned out hippie (sans the long hair) hired to teach 5th and 6th combo and guess what the English curriculum had in store for me???

Well, you might have guessed it... Yup, diagramin' them sunabich sentences!!!

Man, geeze, oh man... Talk about workin' my butt off... I had to learn that stuff in less than a couple days... Fortunately, my first wife was an English major and she beat 'nuff into me to stay just a couple steps ahead of my students but just a couple steps... Never more than 2...

Now, as fir grammar??? It's okay but compared to a cold six pack of Iron City Beer, it's gonna come in 2nd every time...

Guess that's my story 'cept to say to any of my Catters buds...

...if yer gonna have a sentence diagramin' party, don't bother sending me an invite... Ain't 'nuff Iron City in yer frig to change my mind...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 07:43 PM

Diagramming is like second nature to me. I had great English teachers even if I thought they were mean at the time! On Mudcat, I learned it was called "parsing" elsewhere, as noted above.:-)

I love hanging out with folks who have so much fun playing with the language! Yea, Mudcatters!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 07:26 PM

Gee, Foolestroupe, I thought that meant to cry.
The countries you mapped probably did exist when you did that; you also probably know where Ceylon and Rhodesia were, and what they are now. You were fortunate in where you went to school. My son, during that approximate period in Los Angeles and San Diego, had a bare thimble full of diagramming.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 06:38 PM

"Lift flap press and tear"

Sounds like instructions for trying to fly, It'll all end in tears though as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 06:29 PM

My Grammar is up to date, she's had all her teeth out and a gas stove put in...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Becca72
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 06:24 PM

John on the SC...I was in elementary school in the late 70's and early 80's and we spent loads of time diagraming sentences...and making maps. Maps of countries that don't exist anymore. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 06:18 PM

Never had oyster jam. How do you prepare it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 05:29 PM

Not so much anymore, 'cause they're both dead. But before they went they were pretty darned up to date -- rolled their stockings down, did the Charleston and the Black Bottom, rode around in rumble seats, the whole bit. One even kept a flask in her purse.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 03:46 PM

The legendary headline - "Oyster Jam Probe Shock" comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 10:25 AM

Where are all our Canadians? Their lumberjacks chop trees down. Then they chop them up.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: GUEST,Rob
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 09:18 AM

There was the tale of the non-English speaker who arrived at a building and had to negotiate the doors. He was fine with the one that was marked PUSH and the one that was marked PULL, but he gave up with the one marked LIFT.

Then again, there was the English learner who shot himself when he saw the headline, MAN PRONOUNCED INSANE.

Regards,

Rob

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 06:51 AM

Yes, I spent a lot of time at school parsing about. It was then that I realised that the Santas you see in shops aren't the real Santa; they are only Subordinate Clauses.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 05:41 AM

"Diagramming/Deconstructing"
Is that what we used to call "parsing" when I was at school (although without the pictures!)?
D

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 12:20 AM

Thank you for the question, Bone cruncher. Yes, I do mean the deconstruction of sentences as you noted -- although I abhor the the word 'deconstruction', preferring, perhaps, the word 'analysis'. It is a visual tool which may be used to analyze a sentence, which was popular in America for about 75 - 100 years, until the 1960s or 1970s (I, myself, encountered the exercise in the 1950s.) I do not know your age or where you live, so you may not have had the pleasure(?) of diagramming sentences.
It is a good tool for writers, who strive for clarity in constructing coherent, complex sentences. It is not something one consciously should do all the time--lord knows nothing would get written if it were!--but it is something a writer should be aware of to get his/her ideas to the reader as intended.
I cannot use HTML or other tools to illustrate a diagrammed sentence. However, if you Google 'diagramming sentences' you will find many sites which illustrate this lost art.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 10:14 PM

Query, please, to John on the Sunset Coast.
Could you explain the meaning of "diagramming sentences"?
Do you mean the deconstruction of sentences into "Subject" and "Predicate" and thence into the other "parts of speech"?
Thanks in anticipation
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 08:15 PM

My grandma at least knows the date.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 05:34 PM

Hmmmmmmm

Anyone here use the word instatiate?

I had this on a techie forum as if the whole world uses it. Not so. The Cambridge dictionary doesn't report it, Mirriam Webster cites a first use by a philospher in 1949.

Microsoft don't use it in techie help files.

AND you try a week in NZ - "have a relax" and the Lalland Scots "uptake a leaflet" are quite normal forms of grammar.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 05:04 PM

One of my long-time favourites is from a milk carton which said "Lift flap press and tear" (there was no punctuation.) Almost every word can be a noun or verb, and most can be adjectives as well. You can easily imagine a metal pressing machine that makes flaps for lifts (elevators), and end up with a rather large number of vaguely plausible interpretations.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Rowan
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 04:49 PM

And, to cut it with an old saw;

Time flies like an arrow;
fruit flies like a banana.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: topical tom
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 11:56 AM

English indeed is a strange yet wonderful language.The vagaries of spelling and usage are quite mind-boggling.
    One proof of this is the following song which delighted my granddaughter when she first heard it:
Subject: Lyr Add: ENGLISH IS CUH-RAY-ZEE (from Pete Seeger)
From: open mike - PM
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 11:46 AM

English is Cuh-Ray-Zee (English is Crazy),Pete Seeger. recording here
http://www.folkways.si.edu/search/AlbumDetails.aspx?ID=2530
(Based on Richard Lederer's "Crazy English")
http://home.earthlink.net/~jimcapaldi/englishcrazy.htm

ENGLISH IS CUH-RAY-ZEE

English is the most widely spoken language in the history of the planet.
One out of every seven human beings can speak or read it.
Half the world's books, 3/4 of the international mail are in English.
It has the largest vocabulary, perhaps two million words,
And a noble body of literature. But face it:
English is cuh-ray-zee!

Just a few examples: There's no egg in eggplant, no pine or apple in pineapple.
Quicksand works slowly; boxing rings are square.
A writer writes, but do fingers fing?
Hammers don't ham, grocers don't groce. Haberdashers don't haberdash.
English is cuh-ray-zee!

If the plural of tooth is teeth, shouldn't the plural of booth be beeth?
It's one goose, two geese. Why not one moose, two meese?
If it's one index, two indices; why not one Kleenex,two Kleenices?
English is cuh-ray-zee!

You can comb through the annals of history, but not just one annal.
You can make amends, but not just one amend.
If you have a bunch of odds and ends and get rid of all but one, is it an odd or an end?
If the teacher taught, why isn't it true that a preacher praught?
If you wrote a letter, did you also bote your tongue?
And if a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat?
English is cuh-ray-zee!

Why is it that night falls but never breaks and day breaks but never falls?
In what other language do people drive on the parkway and park on the driveway?
Ship by truck but send cargo by ship? Recite at a play but play at a recital?
Have noses that run and feet that smell?
English is cuh-ray-zee!

How can a slim chance and a fat chance be the same
When a wise man and a wise guy are very different?
To overlook something and to oversee something are very different,
But quite a lot and quite a few are the same.
How can the weather be hot as hell one day and cold as hell the next?
English is cuh-ray-zee!

You have to marvel at the lunacy of a language in which your house can burn down
While it is burning up. You fill out a form by filling it in.
In which your alarm clock goes off by going on.
If pro is the opposite of con, what is the opposite of progress?

Well, English was invented by people, not computers
And reflects the creativity of the human race.
So that's why when the stars are out, they're visible,
But when the lights are out, they're invisible.
When I wind up my watch I start it, but when I wind up this rap,
I end it. English is cuh-ray-zee!

Words by Josh White, Jr. and Pete Seeger
(Based on Richard Lederer's "Crazy English")
Copyright (c) 1996

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 11:26 AM

BTW, I have on order from my local book seller 'Sister Bernadette's Barking Dog' This is a lighthearted look at the lost art of diagramming sentences. Fifty five years ago, in Jr. High, we did a lot of diagramming; thirty years later, my son may have had a hour of that exercise in his whole school career. Is it taught anywhere these days?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 11:20 AM

Stanley Unwin resurected?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 11:15 AM

I love this. Playing with words is fun.

One reason that English is a difficult language--esp. to foreign speakers learning same--is that words come from various other languages and have been tortured into English words. German, Greek, Latin (from most of its families), Arabic (ie carafe, magazine), Hebrew and Anglo-Saxon. Whence (not 'from whence,' a redundancy) words come often determines their pronunciation and spelling. Most languages do not have the diversity of vocabulary that English has.

To add a couple of thoughts to Peace's observations:
A homemaker is often sweet and feminine, but a house builder is usually strong and masculine.
It is good to be a homemaker, but not usually to be homely, although once they meant pretty much the same thing.
Also, it is better to be looked over; bad to be overlooked.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 09:58 AM

You might enjoy the following to go with it. I received this in an e-mail--and yes, it's been around for a while.

"You Think English is Easy???

Can you read these right the first time?

1) The bandage was wound around the wound.
2) The farm was used to produce produce.
3) The dump was so full that it had to refuse more refuse.
4) We must polish the Polish furniture.
5) He could lead if he would get the lead out.
6) The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the desert.
7) Since there is no time like the present, he thought it was time to present the present.
8) A bass was painted on the head of the bass drum.
9) When shot at, the dove dove into the bushes.
10) I did not object to the object.
11) The insurance was invalid for the invalid.
12) There was a row among the oarsmen about how to row.
13) They were too close to the door to close it.
14) The buck does funny things when the does are present.
15) A seamstress and a sewer fell down into a sewer line.
16) To help with planting, the farmer taught his sow to sow.
17) The wind was too strong to wind the sail.
18) Upon seeing the tear in the painting I shed a tear.
19) I had to subject the subject to a series of tests.
20) How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend?
21) Did you read the red book that he read?

Let's face it - English is a crazy language. There is no egg in eggplant, nor ham in hamburger; neither apple nor pine in pineapple. English muffins weren't invented in England or French fries in France. Sweetmeats are candies while sweetbreads, which aren't sweet, are meat. We take English for granted. But if we explore its paradoxes, we find that quicksand can work slowly, boxing rings are square and a guinea pig is neither from Guinea nor is it a pig.

And why is it that writers write but fingers don't fing, grocers don't groce and hammers don't ham? If the plural of tooth is teeth, why isn't the plural of booth, beeth? One goose, 2 geese. So one moose, 2 meese? One index, 2 indices? Doesn't it seem crazy that you can make amends but not one amend? If you have a bunch of odds and ends and get rid of all but one of them, what do you call it?

If teachers taught, why didn't preachers praught? If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat? Sometimes I think all the English speakers should be committed to an asylum for the verbally insane. In what language do people recite at a play and play at a recital? Ship by truck and send cargo by ship? Have noses that run and feet that smell?

How can a slim chance and a fat chance be the same, while a wise man and a wise guy are opposites? You have to marvel at the unique lunacy of a language in which your house can burn up as it burns down, in which you fill in a form by filling it out and in which, an alarm goes off by going on.

English was invented by people, not computers, and it reflects the creativity of the human race, which, of course, is not a race at all. That is why, when the stars are out, they are visible, but when the lights are out, they are invisible.

PS. - Why doesn't "Buick" rhyme with "quick" "

Subject: RE: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 09:31 AM

Well, it's different!

Subject: BS: Is Your Grammar Up To Date?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 06:27 AM

Some grammar you may not have learned at school, or if you did, it wasn't the same one I went to.