BS: BT and India

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:53 AM

Bee - it seems half the UK feels like you do - many of the Revenue and Customs offices have these automated 'press one if you want to kill someone, press 2 if you want to kill yourself' type automated switchboards. My office doesn't. When you dial the number you see on the screen for my office, you get a human being (unless it's Carly's day to cover the phone in which case, you'll get an engaged tone) who will answer your call personally. Many taxpayers have discovered that they don't like waiting for the machines to run through the script so ring us instead because they just want to talk to a human.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: Bee
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 10:26 PM

Ha! me too, open mike! I thought it would turn out to be a horror story about BT modified crops destroying some insect essential for pollinating another important crop, or decimating rare butterflies or some such.

Frankly, I don't care what a support person's accent is like - I'm speaking with a real live person? Bonus! I've found patience and asking the person to speak more slowly if necessary solves most misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: open mike
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 09:26 PM

i thought this would be about Baccillus Thurengensis,
a bacteria (or something) used to combat caterpillars..
but i guess it the British Telephone?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_thuringiensis

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: bobad
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 08:37 PM

Dell to charge more for North American support services

Move to sell 'premium' plan comes as company closes Ottawa call centre

Vito Pilieci, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Saturday, April 26, 2008

Computer-maker Dell Inc. is splitting its tech support into two tiers, with customers who pay an extra fee guaranteed to reach North American tech support staff instead of their Indian counterparts.

The "premium support" service plan, as Dell calls it, will be offered to new customers in the coming weeks.

The announcement comes the same week the company announced it would close its Ottawa call-centre operations and cut 1,100 jobs.

If a customer opts for the service, for which a price has not yet been set, he or she will receive the support for one year -- just long enough to cover the product's warranty period.

Dell refused to say whether a customer who doesn't upgrade would definitely be transferred to an overseas staffer.

Article

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 08:25 PM

May I offer the following, composed after a ten call over two hours episode which ended in a conversation with a gentleman who couldn't understand me, and whom I couldn't understand.

Help line LAMENT.

1.        When calling up a helpline, you would be well advised,
If you have to wait an hour or two, not to be surprised,
'Cos you've just joined the tail end of an automated queue,
In a system that's designed so they don't have to talk to you.

Ch.        It's a Helpline you're connected to, you try to keep your cool,
        You have no choice, you hold the line, and stand there like a fool,
        You can bite your nails, or pick your nose, you've not much else to do,
        It's a premium line, they're getting all the cash they can from you.

2.        They'll play a little music, your frustrated mood to fix,
Mozart 40 played on dustbin lids, by chimpanzees with bricks,
And when you're semi-conscious, you'll find you've been put through,
To a pre-recorded message, that will tell you what to do.
Ch.

3.        "Thank you for calling helpline", says an electronic voice,
"To further your enquiry, you will have to make a choice,
If you want to pay us money, press button number two,
Any other button takes you back to the tail end of the queue".
Ch.

4.        The thing about this system, is that automation means,
That they need not permit you to converse with human bein's
Thus preventing you from finding out, they haven't got a clue,
About solving all the problems that their product's giving you.

Ch.

5.        "We're only here to help you", that's their regular refrain,
        "And at a quid a minute, we sure hope you'll ring again,
        Our products really don't make too much profit, sad but true,
        But the helpline's made us millionaires, and that's all thanks to you.
Ch.

                Copyright Don Thompson Sept 1998.

It was two hours of prerecorded menus and cut offs, culminating in contact with an apparently very bad Japanese impression of a Bombay Welshman.
The conversation was surreal consisting mostly of "PARDON?" very loudly in two very different accents.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 09:40 AM

A few years before I retired, so it would have been in about 1997, the US Department of Veterans Affairs set up a call center (in Topeka, Kansas) that was supposed to take care of many Human Resources/Personnel issues. It was staffed through local recruiting, and the people hired were given scripts (and training on using them) that were supposed to take care of most routine issues. There was a second tier of "experts" who were to get the harder questions. It was funded by reducing each of the local HR offices (and each medical center had one) by 15% in terms of staff and salary, which is what "they" calculated was spent on answering questions rather than doing "substantive work".

What "they" didn't calculate in was that no HR office had any employees who did nothing but answer questions - they also processed paperwork, dealt with walk-ins, and handled the myriad of issues in which employees become involved. Employees with questions, of course, would continue to come to us rather than calling Topeka, because they knew we had the answers, our answers were personalized rather than generic, and they could get an answer rather than being left on hold...even though our staff had been cut.   Refusing to deal with them was not an option - my decision.

Finally, after more than 3 years of trying, and thousands of complaints across the country that the reduced staff was delaying vital actions like hiring doctors and other staff, promotions, training, and so forth, the office in Topeka was closed down and we had our previous numbers (mostly) restored to us.

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 05:41 AM

Call centres are in most cases a waste of time, because the person who answers the phone hasn't any power.
However at 60p a minute or more, someone is making money out of their lack of power.
They are phone fodder, put up as a buffer between the real miscreants and the under served customer.

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 04:16 AM

I tried to top up my Orange mobile and spoke to a man with a Belfast accent - couldn't understand a word he said, it's a hideous way of speaking if you ask me. Later I spoke to a young lady from Eastern Europe who spoke with an exceptional accent.

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 03:51 AM

Why is it when I call local councils, the college, school etc the person I want to speak to is in a meeting, not in today, out on holiday, not in the office! Under staffed and out of there!

I've also read in our local rag that hospital records are being updated in New Zealand cos they're awake while we're asleep. We're in UK btw.

Sal

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 03:43 AM

We were recently part of a national survey, but no-one told us this. Our telephone calls were monitored, and it was shown that 80% of the calls that we took were dealt with by ourselves - the lowest grade Admin Assistants with no recognised training in tax related issues - without having to pass them on to a higher grade officer.

A few weeks later, when we learned the results we were also told why the survey was conducted. It was to discover if a call centre for tax problems would be viable. As we dealt with 80% of the calls, it seems it will be. This call centre will probably be placed in the wilds of Wales or somewhere north of the Ouse, thus taking part of our jobs away from us.

What the survey didn't show was the amount of experience that we all have between us - something like a collective 100 years worth. If a call centre is to be created somewhere where rent is low and unemployment is high, then how much experience are those operatives going to have when dealing with tax related issues?

And why is it, whenever I call one of those centres, I always get the person who's on their first day?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 07:46 PM

True, Liz, sadly true. Such insourced call centres also fail.

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 05:57 PM

Blonde white guy?

In London?

Incoherent?

Not the best candidate for the job?

... don't tell me it's ...

BORIS!

Am I right? Am I right?

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 05:54 PM

Now, gnu...be nice to Megan. She's a nice lady, and she even "speaks" pretty good English for someone born, raised and educated in a foreign land.

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 05:25 PM

George - those skills you listed aren't always obvious in 'insourced' call centres either.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: gnu
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:10 PM

Megan.... hahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 12:23 PM

And by the way, you don't "have to accept that the person on the end of the helpline may not be looking at the same horizon as you" (the specific horizon is not the issue of course, but cultural understanding is). Which is why I switched insurance companies and will not go back to Norwich Union except kicking and screaming. And telephone providers (ditto for BT).

Recognising the above, albeit somewhat late, BP pulled its call centres out of India after a few years; they still outsource other activities there - but none that is customer-facing.

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 12:18 PM

LTS, even an excellent command of English is insufficient when it comes to call centres. For them to be effective, you also need

- to be easily understood by your target audience (have you noticed how those Glasgow accents have softened recently?)
- to be more than a little knowledgeable about the subject they handle so as to be helpful; and that means very often to have sufficient knowledge of the context in which some questions are answered

Both of the above are sadly lacking in outsourced call centres.

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: Megan L
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 12:02 PM

Weel ma complaint is when ye get some gowk wie a flamin funny accent tryin tae tell ye somethin. Honestly they shouldny let English fowk man phones disgraceful so it is.

Heads fur the door double time

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 11:55 AM

Maybe 'blonde, white guy' should not have got the job in the first place. How did he pass an interview? What kind of school did he go to where he wasn't taught good english grammar in order for him to get a job? Standards obviously have dropped a. in schools and b. at interview.

Sal

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 02:43 AM

I'm a bit concerned over the 'not very good English'... I work in a busy government office and the standard of spoken English there is appalling - the worst offender is the blonde, white guy who sits opposite me and has never been out of London in his life.

Often the Asians in the office have a better command of spoken English than the indigenous population.

If you want to continue to use large companies for your banking, telecommunication and insurance needs for the best possible price to you, then you are going to have to accept that the person on the end of the helpline may not be looking at the same horizon as you.

If you want to pay more for these things, then feel free to find an insurance company or bank that doesn't utilise call centres abroad. Good luck with that.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: Gulliver
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 08:33 PM

Guest,Lox has some good points to make. They apply not only to British companies but to many other "first world" countries all over the world, including (surprise, surprise!) mine (Ireland). That's Globalization!

Don

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 08:17 PM

Many of the call centers that were in India are now being relocated to Malaysia, Mexico and the Philippines. At least the Indians spoke English, even if their accent was very different than mine. Maybe they were spending too much time chatting with the customers and trying to be helpful rather than rigidly following their scripts.

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 08:04 PM

Recently Amex Australia closed it's Call Centre in India - claiming it had only been temporary measure in busy times to have it there all those years, blah, blah, blah

Many companies used these Call Centres, & over the years we also had lots of complaints about Indian employees who did not have very good English, trying to pretend they were in Australia by chatting about sport, etc. And we had lots of rude people insulting these people who were only trying to do their job. And lots of comments about jobs going out of the country.

And of course all companies concerned made large profits by paying out smaller wages to people in India & other low-wage countries!

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 06:13 PM

well I think it's one of many associated issues and not necessarily the biggest of them.

Work that could be provided by a british company to british workers is farmed out overseas where it can cost the company a fraction of what it would cost here.

It is an example of british industry stabbing britain in the back.

Give the job to somebody overseas and their taxes can be paid overseas too.

So the unemployed here have less of a public purse available to them when they ask for help and are treated as scroungers.

Meanwhile the company in question posts record profits cos they've kept their costs down.

Then there's the ethics of paying the indian workers a subtandard wage.

And of course the question of accountability - the company is less accountable as it's complaints department is 10,000 miles away, the person taking the complaint doesn't have any first hand knowledge of the service they represent and they don't speak the language as fluently as someone over here.

And of course they will put up with more abuse.

This is the part that makes me really sick - how many of you shares the sunny disposition of yoour banks employees in Bangalore?

I didn't think so!

And the result is that they receive masses of abuse, put through the nasty little race lens for extra spice.

And they are given questions to ask and lines to deliver which they couldn't possibly know would be likely to completely infuriate the person at the other end and which no employee in the UK would feel anyway comfortable about delivering.

This in turn creates a picture in India of an abusive rude arrogant racist culture in the UK.

Is that an image that anyone here would like to have representing them next time they go on holiday to the south of India?

And there are a million more reasons why the whole set up is shit.

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 06:03 PM

I suspect that BT is registered for 'double taxation'... if they pay tax in one country, they don't need to pay it in another where they may have subsidiary companies. The cost of a call centre in India is far cheaper than a similar one in the UK and infinitely cheaper than any tax bill BT has.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 05:49 PM

And another thing, what about all those nice little chinese people? We pay them but do they pay us UK taxes? USA Taxes? Isn't this a leak? Maybe I'm just being dim.

Sal

Subject: RE: BS: BT and India
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 05:04 PM

An article in Technology Review magazine about a year ago reported that ALL MAJOR CREDIT CARDS used in the US are processed in one or two small villages in India, where the clearing houses have set up computer systems and satellite links.

I think I recall an average pay of about $16/week (or maybe that was for the local "IT manager" that they interviewed). Of course that was some months ago and they might have given some of them a raise by now.

You can't even talk to them about a screw-up on your account.

John

Subject: BS: BT and India
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 04:55 PM

You know every time you need help from BT you end up talking to someone in India? Well who pays those nice helpful unintellegeable folk? Is it us when we pay out BT bills? If so do they pay UK taxes or Indian taxes. Isn't that money going out of the country and not having the tax paid on it as it would be if the work was done here?

Just a thought.

Sal