BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 01:18 PM

This has been the battle cry of the GOP Dinosaurs for years. The problem with poor people is that they are poor. It's their fault.

Rich individuals who live off of their dividend stock checks defend their weak consciences
with this kind of prattle. Phil Gramm speaks for them and not the American public.

Actually, Gramm and McCain are "whiners" themselves. They whine every time someone
criticizes their economic or political policies and offer a blame-game in lieu of a solution.

These men have played the "victim" role so many times you would think that they
were political prisoners instead of candidates.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 04:29 PM

So, Rig, you're finally coming to understand.   Good thing, too. It was getting so crowded under your "bus" it's unlikely anybody else would fit.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 12:07 PM

It was all a mental thing - There was no mouth, so there could not be a foot in it, and the bus wasn't real, so there were not problems to deal with. And there was no "self" so how could he take responsibility?

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: GUEST,Jts
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 12:03 PM

Speaking of whining. For high quality whining it would beat this.

"It is clear to me that Democrats want to attack me rather than debate Senator McCain on important economic issues facing the country," Gramm said. "That kind of distraction hurts not only Senator McCain's ability to present concrete programs to deal with the country's problems, it hurts the country. To end this distraction and get on with the real debate, I hereby step down as co-chair of the McCain campaign and join the growing number of rank-and-file McCain supporters."

Blaming the Democrats for walking through the barn door he left open, rather than taking responsibility himself. .... Classy!

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 11:57 AM

OMG but wouldn't you know it, poor Phil was thrown under a diesel bus instead of a hydrogen fuel cell bus.

Its OK Rhil, its all in you mind so there is no sense whining abour it.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 11:47 AM

"Ridicule dishonors the heart". I'm sure Sam Clemons, Jonathan Swift, W. S. Gilbert, etc. would agree.

There are other role models than a facile Guest.




Also, Ebbie's observation is quite apt.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 11:18 AM

Will some Mudcatters be referring to conditions under the bus?

Phil Gramm Resigns

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 11:00 AM

True. Ridicule is very nasty, but good humor is a tonic for good relations.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 04:58 AM

Ridicule dishonors the heart, more than dishonor itself!

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 03:00 PM

Humor. It's the best antidote to political and social malaise... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 11:28 AM

Reading the last barrage of posts, I'll have to say, is rather amusing!!

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 12:46 AM

Yeah, what the heck was that last dire threat I made to Amos, anyway? (scratching head, grimacing with the effort of attempted recall as I riffle back through the thousands of mental files that are stored away somewhere between the highlighted section on Winona Ryder and the other one that is devoted to...uhh...where was I?)

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 11:46 PM

Well, I am nor sure about nature versus nurture when it comes to attack hamsters. But I am still waiting for the manifestation of LH's last dire and terrifying threat, which I have forgotten what was, but I am sure I am nervous about it at some level.


A

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 11:30 PM

>>the attack hamsters and they are on their way.

California's a long way off...so I think you should start getting worried by, oh, about next April, I guess.<<

Do Hamsters live that long? Or would they have to breed and teach their progeny how to attack as they meet their demise on the way?

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 11:16 PM

Amos - Why you rotten bounder! You unconscionable twaddler! You despicable filch ranger! I'm going to fix you, Amos. I have instructed the attack hamsters and they are on their way.

California's a long way off...so I think you should start getting worried by, oh, about next April, I guess.

Sweat it out in the meantime and try to enjoy what time you have left, eh? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 10:33 PM

My apologies. LH, for being unclear. It was directed at you.


;>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 09:48 PM

Well, at least we're winning the war on the environment

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 09:40 PM

Now...just a cotton-pickin' minute here! Was that last post directed toward me, Doug R, or Wayne Newton, Amos?

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 08:57 PM

I am happy to hear your divinely serene, infinitely wise and all-seeing perspective is providing you with a renewed sense of your personal spiritual superiority, you smarmy condescending patronizing wanker. Don't quit your day job selling used junk.


A

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: DougR
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 07:53 PM

So who is smearing Obama supporters, Mr. Davies? Not me. Anybody in this country is free to squander his/her vote if they wish.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 07:50 PM

No chance. We have the world's largest supply of wild beaver up here. Don't forget that. Beaver will get you through hard times even if all else fails.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 07:40 PM

But will the economic melt-down in the US suck Canada down with it?

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 02:51 PM

Yeah, yeah.... (chuckle)

Don't worry about it, Amos. You're all succeeding in giving me some idle amusement today.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 01:57 PM

Good. Next, learn to use your brain instead. These far-flung negative FUD generalities are beneath you. And they are really second-rate communication.

LIttle Hawk, respect is a two way street, and I prefer better standards; but I do not brook passive-agressive hostility with much grace any more.

A

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 11:53 AM

I'd respond, but I'm having trouble lifting my arms.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 11:35 AM

"Don't you find it tires your arms to wave them about so? Do you actually think in such malformed, amorphous, generalizations?"

"Do you usually drive like a half-blind, drunken idiot?"

"Are you still cheating on your wife and kicking your dog?"

"Is your disgusting and disheveled appearance due to bad breeding, a poor genetic inheritance or a simple lack of self-awareness? Are you really as dumb as you look?"

Na-na-na-na-NAH-NAH!

;-)

It's always nice to see the way the discussion here sticks to the high road. Mutual respect, that's what it's all about. Heh!

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 10:18 AM

Rig:

There ya go again. Don't you find it tires your arms to wave them about so? Do you actually think in such malformed, amorphous, generalizations?


A

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 06:26 AM

If it was good enough for Jelly Roll Morton....
"I'm a winin'boy, don't deny my name.."


RtS

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 06:21 AM

'"2) Path to citizenship for illegal immigrants--without waiting the millennium or two it will take to "secure the border".'



             It looks like he's willing to abandon the environment.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 12:44 AM

Its great, that Amos and Rig, both mention 'facts'. its good to see some people consider sorting them out. That's light years ahead of our politicians! They would rather 're-phrase' your question, or tell us 'What you are really asking is.....' That's the stuff that leaves us, down here, who are left trying to figure it all out, First: Are they facts at all??..And second, 'Can I agree with that?' Third: 'Is that what he really means?' Fourth: Is that what he stands for, really?'...and last.' Is he just like all the rest...lying again?'

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 12:16 AM

Don't mmind Rig, Ron...he is dedicated to innuendo, underhanded remarks not based on facts, and trying to make others feel bad with his cleverly crafter snide remarks, of which this most recent is the latest example.


A

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 09:58 PM

"If we only knew what his beliefs are."

If the poster would only do a modicum of research---sorry that means no Hannity or Rush for the time needed to do so--he would know about Obama's beliefs. It's obviously too hard for the poster to actually do any research--besides, complaining is so much more fun for him, it seems.   Obama's program which reflects his beliefs includes:

1)   End the Bush tax cuts for annual income over $250,000. Too bad if that means the poster's taxes go up. You've had a great 8 years.

Cut taxes for middle-income earners.

2) Path to citizenship for illegal immigrants--without waiting the millennium or two it will take to "secure the border".

3) Bring troops back from Iraq--without insisting on the chimera of "victory".

All 3 of these are diametrically opposed to McCain's stands.


And there's a lot more. Too bad the poster can't seem to lift a finger to find out facts, as opposed to smears.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 02:48 PM

I think his beliefs are here.

Obama speech Democratic convention 2004

I think that his plans for improving America along the lines described have been quite evident in his actions and rhetoric since then.

I think his approach has been pragmatic and political. You have to pay close attention to see his motivations at work.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 02:15 PM

Yes, that would help.

If you want to know what a politician's beliefs really are...you generally have to wait till they are in power for awhile.

Election propaganda is crafted to secure votes. It's usually a long way shy of what actually happens after the election is over and the governing begins. Anybody noticed that? It's an old story by now.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 01:25 PM

"Now, someone like Obama...his particular work in life puts him in a position where he actually can apply his beliefs toward changing society..."


                         If we only knew what his beliefs are.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 10:45 AM

I am finding that Obama is a bit of a blank slate. People are looking at him and see waht they want to see. I would not be supporting him if he was nearly as "liberal" as the lazy media and some of his supporters seem to think that he is. I want pragmatism in a president. Obama is very pragmatic.


I don't find him to be progressive at all. He talks about change. But pragmatic change. He is not against fighting wars. He is against doing do badly. He is for investing in infrastructure and eduction. he is for lower taxes for all but the top. He wants to return to a tax regime first introduced by Clinton and a congress lead by Newt Gingrich.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 10:36 AM

So true. ;-) It's just a big marketing exercise...with some propaganda thrown in. Guess why I watched stopping TV back in the late 80's...

I get my information from the Internet, the newspapers, and books.

*******

Amos, you said that my cocepts, insights, etc are "pretty well useless in application".

Well, yeah... ;-) But how would I be applying them anyway? What I choose to apply myself to in life is:

1. earning a living
2. playing music with friends of mine
3. exercising
4. taking care of my property (house, lawn, etc)
5. reading some books I enjoy
6. talking to friends on the internet
7. engaging in other personal hobbies and interests

My lofty concepts and insights, Amos, are not mechanisms even intended to be applied to, let's say, changing this society or altering the political system. They are simply part of who and what I am in an inner sense, therefore I find some satisfaction in expressing them, and that's all there is to it.

Now, someone like Obama...his particular work in life puts him in a position where he actually can apply his beliefs toward changing society, the political system, etc...if he chooses to.

Great. I hope he gives it a good shot. I, however, am not in such a position nor am I wishing to be. I am simply expressing my own thoughts here because it keeps my mind active and it pleases me to do so.

I am applying myself in completely different areas of life than politics and social action.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 10:05 AM

Has everyone noticed, that you can barely get news anymore?? (Actually we haven't for a long time) We get mostly 'commentaries'...even commentaries about a speech, even while the guy is still talking! I don't need for someone to tell me what the guy is saying in his speech, just shut up, and let me hear the lies for myself!..Then we have to break away for a bazzillion commercials.. No news, just commentary, on the 'info-tainment'( mostly distractions). I'm starting to think, for all of us who pay for T.V., that when the T.V. schedule says 'News", being as were are paying for it, doesn't that fit in the realm of consumer fraud???(hmmm, good point there, Poindexter).

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 11:09 PM

Your towering concepts are cosmic in scope, deep in insight, but pretty well useless in application, old friend. Being profoundly guilty myself of the same kind of para, meta, and uber philosophizing I recognize it all too well.

The devil is always in the details. That's where the many small strikes have to be struck to make anything move on a larger scale.


A

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 10:47 PM

"People like Rig and Doug are so busy" smearing Obama and his supporters--Amos nailed that one.

And then "people like.." get bent out of shape when somebody observes that they are trivial individuals.   Maybe they're not--they're brilliant commentators who for some unexplained reason seem to be capable only of drivel when they post below the line.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 01:08 AM

The spectres I raise are pretty much at home, Amos. Therefore they do not serve to justify any foreign wars. Nor do they serve to justify expanded military spending, reduction of civil liberties, and/or violent actions of any sort against anyone. I find them preferable to the violence-promoting and war-promoting spectres your presidents and candidates keep raising all the time in order to pander to votes.

The spectres I raise are also not among the poor and powerless of this world, they are among the rich and privileged.

If you look at a history of fascists and authoritarian governments, you will find that they search for bogeymen in 2 places: Among the powerless or outnumbered in their own society, and among the not-too-powerful in foreign countries that they think will be quite easy to win a war against.

I believe in cleaning one's own house first. Got any problem with that concept?

I've been aware for a long time that I'm witnessing the rise of greater militarism, authoritarianism, and fascism right here at home in my own North American society (which includes Canada, Mexico, and the USA), and that's what concerns me. I'm witnessing the erosion of what was once a reasonably democratic situation...but no longer.

If Obama is a man of genuinely progressive ideals, that's something that he is going to have to watch out for. I don't know for sure yet if he is such a man, and I won't know until after he's elected and we see what he actually does in the first year or two. Then it will become plain enough.

As for McCain? Well, just more of the militaristic drumbeat is what I see happening there. It would be like electing Sergeant Fury (retired) and his Howling Commandos to run the USA. Not even worth thinking about, as far as I'm concerned.

If he's elected, though, I will shrug philosophically and continue with my main work which is simply managing my own life reasonably while it lasts.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 12:14 AM

For someone so well read, you certainly like to lift the spectres of bogeymen, LH.


A

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 11:49 PM

Got that right, Rig. TV is the great lobotomizer. I've seen the mental rot setting in from it ever since I was a kid. The mere fact that we had no TV in the house till I was 17 or 18 was one of the key factors in my growing up to be:

1. an avid reader
2. a social radical
3. someone who doesn't believe in the prevailing $ySSTem or consider it "normal" or healthy in the least
4. someone who detests commercial messages and will avoid any medium that is chock full of them (meaning commercial TV networks and commercial radio stations)

I do not take for granted what most North Americans do, and that includes the ReDemocrapublicant Party (the ruling Duopoly in the USA).

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 11:30 PM

People like Rig and Doug have been so busy calumnifying at the barricades, 's a wonder we got any brains left in the electorate A-tall.


A

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 10:26 PM

B~ I think an informed electorate is a pipe dream that got lost with the advent of television.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:17 PM

Well, one thing is fir sure and that is McCain's campaign team learned alot for the Rev. Wright episode and choose not to repeat it...

Wasn't rocket surgery by any stretch of the imagination...

Think that the bus is gonna claim a few more folks between now and November... Too bad... Almost every news agancy is cutting staff and here we are in a cycle of what news folks are left are out there acting like the papparazzi...

So much for an informed electorate???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: DougR
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:03 PM

Strange, Donuel, but it's not the Fox News or Limbaugh viewers/listeners that are whining. It's the Obama crowd.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 11:42 AM

When elections are stolen and you do nothing, when people are murdered and you do nothing, when eighbors are arrested at work by the hundreds because not everyone in their family are legal immigrants, when you believe the Republican deregulation crowd and lose your hame and your bank, When you did not listen to anyone but Rush Limbaugh and FOX..... AND ALL YOU DO IS WHINE or blame dissenters....

you probably deserve everything that will happen to you this year.
We will all suffer together for your drinking the neocon kool aid.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 11:09 AM

Whaaaa... I want my country back... Whaaaaa

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 10:17 AM

And Wright was right about what?

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 09:24 AM

Surely the difference is this: Wright was right. Gramm is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 01:53 AM

Nation of whiners??....Of course we are...and their not even whining about the right stuff!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 11:24 PM

"Obama is not going to that church. McCain is still using advice from Gramm."


                  Shows lack of experience. Obama needs to learn to tough it out.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 02:41 PM

NAtion of whiners? How harsh!! Why is Phil Gramm being so mean to us?



A

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 02:23 PM

Sequence of events
McCain says he is weak on the economy.
The media notices and starts to cover him as if it is true.
McCain trots out Gramm and others to show he has a good economic team.
McCain says something all along the lines of "Gramm believes in my economic credentials so the must be strong."
McCain proposes economic solution aimed at using psychology to attack economic problems including the price of oil.
Gramm says the recession is psychological.
At the same moment that Gramm is representing McCain at the Wall Street Journal Editorial board, McCain says "Gramm doesn't speak for me. I speak for me."
McCain says Gramm will no longer represent him.
Gramm is still campaign co-chair.


Obama goes to the same church, a Sunday or two a month, for many years. The pastor speaks as well as bill Cosby and Flip Wilson combined, does wonderful things for the community but occasionally goes over the top in his rhetoric.

Obama runs for President. Hannity's minions does a creative edit on all the material available from Wright over 20 years. Wright does not look good. Hannity conflates Wright and Obama. Hillary conflates Wright and Obama, McCain conflates Wright and Obama.
Obama sticks up for Wright and asks us to cut him some slack. Mike Huckabee sticks up for Wright and asks us to cut him some slack. We don't know what it means to be forced to use separate fountains. Wright goes apeshit and attacks Obama. Obama says "He is not the man I thought he was." and cuts his ties. Obama's Church continues to exploit Obama's campaign for publicity. Obama cuts all ties.

In one case the source of the comments is the same source as the financial advice. In the other, the cutting of ties is more than cosmetic political expediency. Obama is not going to that church. McCain is still using advice from Gramm.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 01:40 PM

Righto.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 01:24 PM

LH - The reason I didn't comment on the church angle is because most people don't see things the way I see them, and there is nothing I can see to be gained by getting into an argument over it.

                  When their activities affect me personally, I don't like it. That's all I have to say about it.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 11:05 AM

Yeah, Wright really did his utmost to screw things up, didn't he? It makes me wonder if he was being paid off by the Republicans or by Hillary or something... ;-D

See, Rig, for some people it's just "normal" to belong to a church and have a pastor. Usually because it was the normal thing to do in the family they grew up in. This does not necessarily indicate that they are very religious. Now I happened to grow up in a family that was not churchgoing, so for me it wouldn't be "normal"...but that doesn't mean I'm any smarter or better than someone for whom it is "normal".

Anyway, if it is "normal" for someone to go to a church, and it's a protestant church, then they have a pastor. What does that mean? Well, it could mean that they look to him for their spiritual guidance...or it might not mean that at all. They might just think of him as a friend, either close or casual. It might be more of a social connection than a religious one in that case. Or...they might think of him as someone they can talk to if they have a problem or need personal advice. Or...they might even think of him as a goof who is temporarily running the church they belong to, and they might be dreaming wistfully of the day he leaves! ;-)

There are any number of possibilities.

Some people see church in a deeply religious way, but for others it is more of a social thing or a form of tradition. It enables them to meet with other people whom they feel they have something in common with, that's all. In that way it could be comparable to belonging to the Lions Club or something else along that line. This is what church is for many people...just a way of socializing with others in their community and upholding past social traditions and customs. (that's certainly the main thing that it is for a great many Canadian churchgoers...probably a majority of them)

I think you are reading too much into it.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 10:49 AM

Or some kind of over-ambitious egomaniac...

That's why I think a government formed of people chosen by lot (from a very large number of qualified individuals) would work out better than the competitive electoral systems we have now.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 08:56 AM

LH - I don't disagree with anything you say here. Further, there is very little likelyhood that Phil Gramm will go back in front of the cameras and continue the spectacle like Wright did.
                      I won't comment on Wright having been Obama's pastor, because that probably says more to me that it does to the general public.

                      I wonder if the greater problem might be that in order even to get to the point where one is able to run for the office of president, one has to be a pretty bland and mundane sort of character in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 12:02 AM

Well, is it not understandable that Obama considered Reverend Wright to be a longtime personal friend of many years, therefore was not eager to disown him? Wright was his pastor. He went to that church. That didn't exactly make it easy for Obama, did it? He would have been caught between personal longtime personal loyalties and political expediency. As it was, he tried to steer a middle course.

I don't know which one of them would make a better president, McCain or Obama...I just can't stand McCain's belligerent approach to foreign policy, that's all. He sounds like Teddy Roosevelt getting ready to charge up San Juan Hill, and I don't think we need more of that right now. Plus, I actually think the man is probably too old for the job.

Be that as it may, I will be very surprised if Obama brings the troops home when and if he's elected president. I don't think that's the plan at all. I think it more likely that American troops will remain in Iraq and Afghanistan and that another war will ensue at some point with Iran...and excuses will be found to justify it.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 11:20 PM

Actually, I was pointing out that McCain distanced himself from Gramm immediately after the comments were made known to him. That way he would not have to revisit the issue.
                It seems to me as though Obama painted himself into a corner by dealing with the Wright problem the way he did.

                After thinking about it, it seems to me like a McCain personality is better able to deal with this kind of an issue than an Obama personality is, but I'm not trying to make a case that one or the other would make a better president based on those qualities.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 10:55 PM

Riginslinger, if you were a politician in the same position as Barack Obama you would have done the same thing. You would have severed your relationship with Reverend Wright when it became absolutely politically necessary to do so, and probably not until then. Obama was forced by the political circumstances and by Wright's own behaviour to disown Wright. You would have not, however, have severed your relationship with your grandmother over some stuff she said many, many years ago when you were a kid, because:

1. It would be completely asinine to do so. One recognizes in life that one's relatives are not perfect beings, and one still loves them anyway.

2. It would not be politically expedient to do so. Quite the opposite, in fact, it would be politically disastrous, and quite rightly so. There is no reason why Obama should repudiate his own grandmother, rather he should have compassion for her, and he obviously does.

You are criticizing Obama, therefore, over behaviour which you would not criticize someone else for if he were running against Obama. Why? Because you don't like Obama. Be realistic, man. Your prejudice (against Obama, not against Blacks) is causing you to see his actions in the worst possible light every time, and I doubt that it would matter what he did...you'd still see it that way.

He did not throw his grandmother under any bus. He pointed out that, like other people, she was not perfect. She had some prejudices. He pointed out that he had had to deal with some racial prejudice in his own family, among people he loved dearly...and so do most of us. That's life. People need to face such things at some point, not sweep them under the rug and pretend they don't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 10:08 PM

This is what Obama said:

       "I can no more disown [Jeremiah Wright] than I can my white grandmother –"


                  A few days later he announced that he was severing his relationship with Jeremiah Wright. What does that say for his attitude towards his white grandmother?

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 09:54 PM

When I go to the polls I will remember that this country is mired in a long lasting deadly war that was not necessary and that the President and members of his party lied to Congress and the American people to get support for the war; that the economy of the country is the worst that it has been in my life time and getting worse; that plans and incentives for alternative forms of energy have been stonewalled by the present ruling party for over thirty years and no significant plans are now being presented; and that the national debt must be brought under control. I cannot pat the present ruling party on the back and say "good job. Keep up the good work."

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 09:17 PM

"woefully inadequate. The Democrats, timid as always"

The 'fixed 2 party system' will be the death of the USA. In Software Engineering I came across the statement - consider a tree: Growth creates Structure; Structure inhibits Growth.

The 2 parties have reached a stage where neither is able to move without perhaps bringing down the whole system built up with excessive amounts of money over decades.

The First past the post and optional voting systems ensure that there can be no change, so neither party has any need to do anything different - and the money fountains don't want any real change they don't initiate either. Empires have stumbled along for ages in such conditions.

But as the system crushes harder to stay on path, the bright kids from other countries who used to move to the USA for a career will start to say "It's too hard/nasty/opressive there now, I'll stay in China/India/Korea/Aust/UK/etc as now things are much beter here in the long run". A few generations of that, and the US Military/Industrial Complex are gonna find it hard to get workers who can tell one end of a screwdriver from another, let alone those who can think 'creatively' especially from the hordes of PseudoScience Graduates fed on 'Intelligent Design' - which was a great idea for Populace Mind Control, but far too 'effective' in the long run... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 07:07 PM

Geee---it looks fine to me, using Safari on OS X. Oh...what, you're getting your software from Microsoft?

Hmmmm.....



A

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 06:52 PM

Can you imagine someone who supported George W Bush criticizing someone else, anyone else! for being gullible?

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: DougR
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 05:59 PM

Sorcha:how dare you call Amos weird! OOps. Sorry. You were referring to the funny little gizmos in his last message. Just a guess, but it's possible that Amos is using a computer manufactured in lower Slobovia and some of their language may have bled into his message.
:>)
DougR

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 05:44 PM

Uh, Amos...what's with all the 'weirdnesses' in your post? I mean, I got it, but those wierd characters????

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 04:41 PM

"In the real world, somewhere outside of Phil Gramm's field of vision, increasing numbers of Americans are working two and three jobs to make ends meet; struggling families are worried sick in July about what it will cost to heat their homes in January; food costs and home foreclosures are soaring; the job market has tanked; and the stock markets are running with the bears.

In that kind of atmosphere, it's beyond obscene to have to listen to some platinum-card-carrying fat cat tell us, in a tone dripping with condescension: "You've heard of mental depression; this is a mental recession."

What does it say about John McCain's judgment that this guy was one of his top, and possibly his pre-eminent, economic adviser? What does it say about Mr. McCain's judgment that in 1996, he believed Phil Gramm was the best choice to be president?

The biggest failing of both parties in this presidential campaign has been the unwillingness to be forthright with the public about the true extent of the crises facing the country. The federal government and ordinary Americans are up to their eyeballs in debt. Much of the financial sector is in deep trouble, with previously blue-chip companies wobbling along on legs as rubbery as a bad check.

Perpetual war in Iraq and oil prices spiking toward the moon are adding to a sense of national paralysis. Where is the money to invest in ventures that will create good new jobs, that will chart new directions in energy self-sufficiency, that will revitalize the public schools, rebuild the nation's infrastructure, put New Orleans back on its feet?

Where are the grand ideas, the ideas worthy of a great nation?

Barack Obama got a lot of play with his clever response to the Phil Gramm madness. "You know, America already has one Dr. Phil," said Mr. Obama. "When it comes to the economy, we don't need another."

Cute. But woefully inadequate. The Democrats, timid as always, should be pounding the populist pavement from one coast to another, explaining how the reckless and deliberately inequitable policies of the past several years have gotten the U.S. into this terrible fix.

We should be getting chapter and verse about how badly the war in Iraq is hurting us here at home. We should be seeing charts and graphs explaining how ordinary Americans, now the hardest-working people on the planet, have been cheated out of their share of the extraordinary productivity improvements they've racked up over the years.

There should be a sense of urgency coming from the Democrats in this campaign, a clarion call compelling enough to rally the legions who have been treated unfairly and badly hurt in the nation's other undeclared war: the class war.

Phil Gramm was a general in that conflict, and there was nothing cute about it."

NYT

html fixed
el joe clone

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 12:43 PM

These kind of tawdry personal attacks on both Obama and McCain are really sad, in my opinion, and they have little or nothing to do with whether someone should vote for either one of them. Someone should vote for them (or not) based on their policies (if you can figure out what the hell they are...?) and based on the general coalition of policymakers that are working with them now and can be expected to help them form governmental policy, domestic and foreign, once they are elected.

Nasty personal innuendos over what Obama said about his grandmother or what some advisor of McCain said in one sentence in an unguarded moment have no bearing whatsoever on whether to cast a vote for either one of them.

The fact that people are pandering to such low forms of attack speaks a lot worse for them than it does for the candidate(s). It shows just how unscrupulous individuals can become in their righteous zeal to push a partisan point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 12:20 PM

"...but at least he won't end up throwing his white grandmother under the bus." (f)rigginslinger *G*

Rig, I, for one, am tired of that calumny. If you check, you will see that Obama was talking about the love and respect we have for even flawed people, especially people who absorbed their biases with their mother's milk.

No way did he "throw her under the bus".

I wish you would learn to add information to your biases.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 12:12 PM

Is it...? C'est La Vie

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: DougR
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 12:09 PM

The only think Obama might ride into the White House is the gullibility of those who vote for him.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 11:51 AM

Please, LBK--it's Oscar Meyer.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 11:50 AM

Gramm was probably trying to be witty--though it came out as only half of that--by saying "You've heard of mental depression;   this is a mental recession."

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 11:50 AM

An Oscar Myer whiner?

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 11:29 AM

I'm fascinated by the almost-religious value that some people attach to labels. "Recession" is a word coined in 1937 as a euphemism for "Depression", which was possibly the dirtiest word in the language at that time. Over the years, persons unknown attached a rigid definition to the word; by that definition (six consecutive months of economic decline)we're not in a recession. But we're economically surely in a pile of something hot and steamy.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 11:03 AM

Translation, please, Rig. LTS was right?--exactly how?

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 08:57 AM

LTS - It might have bee Freudian, but I think you were right.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 06:02 AM

I misread this as a 'nation of weiners'.....

Oopsie, my bad..... :D

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 11:49 PM

Elsewhere in today's news, BE&K Government Group LLC, a subsidiary of KBR Inc., has received a contract to expand and renovate a U.S. Navy Exchange building in Norfolk, Va. The contract, awarded by the Naval Facilities Engineering Command, Mid Atlantic, is worth nearly $16.8 million.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 11:31 PM

Nearest appropriate thread open... :-)

13 survive battle, killed by wiring
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24007997-401,00.html
By Karin Zeitvogel in Washington

THE biggest US military contractor in Iraq has been accused of recklessly causing the electrocution deaths of US soldiers.

...

KBR, a former subsidiary of the Halliburton energy firm which was once led by Vice President Dick Cheney, was contracted to maintain facilities at the base and had been informed of electrical problems in the building where Maseth died.

But, said Ms Harris, KBR showed "extreme recklessness and a total disregard for public safety" by failing to fix the problem as well as others that have caused at least 13 electrocution deaths among soldiers and civilian contract workers in Iraq.

...

The hearing was the 17th held by the policy committee into contractor malpractice in Iraq.

Halliburton and KBR were invited to the hearing but did not attend, Senator Dorgan said.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 11:24 PM

I'm thinkin' there's a good possibility some of those whiners are gonna be in the streets riotin' before this year's out. I had thought it'd require Dubya takin' a swat at Iran to precipitate the poop flyin' into the fan, but now I think the situation is gonna get sufficiently fecoventilatory without any further help from anyone in Washington.

Every time I hear some economist saying, "Oh, things will be back to normal in a year or so...." I wanna shake him and say, "Dude! The party is OVER! There ain't nothin' to be done now 'cept turn out the lights and go home. And when ya get home, dig up your back yard and plant a vegetable garden. You'll need it. They's a new paradigm a comin'!"

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 10:54 PM

Obviously, we'll see. But my guess is that if he keeps Gramm as a top economic advisor, McCain will have to explain to quite a few audiences that he does not share Gramm's perspective on this.   And Obama can use it as a "red meat" line for quite a while.

But perhaps there will be room under Rig's "bus" for both Gramm and Charlie Black--with Charlie's noting about how useful a terror attack on the US would be for McCain. Charlie must be the only person in the US hoping for such an attack-- even McCain himself is not doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 10:52 PM

A "winer," well that explains it. It must have been Gramm's Texas accent that threw the media into a tizzy.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 10:40 PM

Look, let me be the first to confess that I am a winer, but it's only dry chardonnay, if you please. And it should not surprise anyone that I'm planning to vote for Obama in the fall, unless he starts drinking Budweiser.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 10:33 PM

Yes McCain should replace Gramm with Mitt Romney as soon as possible, but at least he won't end up throwing his white grandmother under the bus.

Subject: RE: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 10:26 PM

McCain did say that "No one speaks for me. I speak for myself."

It may take more than this for the 'common' people to turn against him.

Subject: BS: US: 'Nation of Whiners'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 10:09 PM

Phil Gramm said it. McCain denies it. But it could be huge--Obama could ride it right into the White House.

In an interview with the Washington Times--therefore friendly territory for him--Gramm really put his foot in it:   " You've heard of mental depression; this is a mental recession"... "We have sort of become a nation of whiners...."

This confirms all the worst stereotypes people have about Republicans being totally out of touch with workers--these workers specifically including the blue collar workers whose support Obama has been lacking up to now. And I can confirm that some Republicans do feel this way--I've read several columns in the WSJ editorial page, the home of Neanderthals for decades, trying to make the case the US is doing fine. Written by typical workers like a former Federal Reserve governor or a writer for a conservative think-tank, etc.

Everybody already knows McCain has several homes--and no money worries, to say the least, courtesy of his second wife, the beer heiress. (And how he treated the first wife is also an issue, to put it mildly).

But people may not know that Gramm is not just any McCain mouthpiece. He is in fact one of McCain's most respected spokesmen on the economy--a subject on which McCain has himself admitted a lack of expertise.   While on the campaign trail,McCain has already referred questions on the economy to Gramm, who is also a strong proponent of the kind of deregulation many think has contributed heavily to the current banking and mortgage crisis.


Fortune 19 Feb 2008: "But economic conservatives should take heart. McCain's chief economic advisor--and perhaps his closest political friend--is the ultimate play in free market faith, former Texas Senator Phil Gramm. If McCain follows Gramm's counsel, and most of his current positions are vintage Gramm indeed..."

Gramm now represents a Swiss bank, UBS.

Gramm and McCain have been friends and allies for over 25 years.

Has he cut himself off from Gramm--a la Obama with Rev Wright?   Nope.

And he should be aware that of course the standard this year is well known--you must "reject and denounce".

Of course it's far better for Obama if McCain does not cut Gramm off. Obama can use this, to put it mildly--it could be red meat for all sorts of non-millionaire audiences from now til November.

As a poster on MSNBC put it:   "McCain can spin as much as he likes, but Gramm is speaking an economic perspective that McCain has long supported. This is classic Republican elitism: the people are whining, let them eat cake. Some bread, circuses and flag pins will stop them from thinking about how lousy their situation really is."

Comment?