BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 03:29 AM

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:32 AM

Jack - Bread and Circumcision????

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 05:09 AM

Sedative Socialism?

I don't see the socialism. Not in the media. Not in the USA.

How about Distractive Celebritism?

Corporate Blinkerism?

Time-filling Vacuism?

Pointless Talkulism?

Partisan Hackuism?

Distorted Viewingprism?

Egotistic Anchorism?

Constant Preeningism?

Bread and Circumcision?

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 04:56 AM

"sedative socialism" - as practiced by the media in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 07:50 PM

And "selective socialism" where the risks are put on Joe Sixpack but the gains are gobbled up by the rich...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 07:34 PM

That's a good point, Jack. The people on top of the capital pile at the moment pick out the winners and then funnel money to them... It's a fixed game!

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 07:29 PM

Yes they do Rig. As matter of fact that point has lead me to make up a new term. "Selective Conservatism."

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 07:19 PM

"It's not the governments role to give other people money to be employers either."


                   No, but they do it, in the form of low capital gains taxes, farm subsidies, oil subsidies, tax breaks for the wealthy, eliminating inheritance taxes, no-bid contracts, not mandating people who make over $102,000.00 a year continue to pay payroll taxes, government backed load guarentees... The list is endless.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 06:24 PM

Point well taken MacGrath

As long as there are brave people to stand up to tyranny, there is hope.


;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 06:09 PM

Stop living in the past. It's over.

As in "Tomorrow belongs to me"

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 05:54 PM

Mick,

I think you are giving him too much credit.

>>>"Unions were good once, but their time is past..."

I think he is saying that unions were never good and that labor protection under the law is a universally bad thing. If he is not, then I'll gladly apologize for calling him ignorant on this subject. But until then, my opinion of his position stands.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 05:48 PM

Susu's Hubby.

You started the name calling.
You called me jealous.
I called you ignorant.

Please note that I am only calling you ignorant of economics and the history of the Labour movement and I have invited you to prove me wrong. I have invited you to inform yourself several times and all you have done is try to belittle me.

The Utopia is yours. You seem to have no idea about economics or human nature that is a pity. But certainly your faith in big business and market forces to take care of you is misguided and yes, ignorant. If it were not for unions and labor laws and a long history of people fighting and dying for the rights of people like you, you would have staved to death in the dark. My grandfather told me about the times he grew up in. I will tell you that I don't want to go back to the times of the company store. But people like you could make that happen. Because you don't want to take responsibility for the society you live in. You want to turn over all the power to institutions why, by definition, by their very design are fighting against your self interest.

As I said. It would be useful for everyone else, if you were allowed, even required to opt out of the protections you condemn. Do you own your own Hospital? Your own roads? Your own utilities? If not your interests lie with people. Not with corporations.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 05:29 PM

My problem is with the fact that people like you and Mick insist of laying this issue on the backs of business owners because of a little jealousy of how they've managed to put a few dollars in the bank because of their sweat and toil, and for whatever reason, you can't feel good for them for truly taking advantage of the opportunities that this country puts forth.


See, this is exactly the type of thing I am talking about. I layed out a predicate for the debate, and Susu's Hubby comes back with the lame old line about me being jealous of them. I have a newsflash for you. In your rush to defend these champions of yours, did the thought ever occur to you that a good deal of the wealth was gained on the backs, sweat and toil of their workers?   When your heroes go out and negotiate for the best price for their product, their supplies, and such, you call that good management and anoint them heroes of modern America. When workers band together into a union for the purpose of negotiating the wages, benefits and conditions of their employment, you act as though that is the bane of the world. I am not jealous of them, but I am damn sick and tired of them getting all the breaks, in the interests of them increasing profits, and it comes at the expense of the American working class.

Here is another example of the weak intellectual basis of your arguments. You use the tactic of trying to say something enough times until it becomes true. This line in your last post:

Stop living in the past. It's over.

is known among folks that actually have some skills in debate as a gratuitous assertion, and according to the rules of debate, can be just as gratuitously denied. Hence:

I am not living in the past, nor is it over.

You anti labor folks have been trying to use this variation of the "Unions were good once, but their time is past..." for a number of years. Our good friend, Bruce "U. Utah" Phillips used to say that he could go outside and pick up any rock and it would be older than any song (or trite assertion....my words) you currently have. He went on to say that when folks try to get you to quit looking at the past, it's usually because there is something there that they don't want you to see. In this case the thing that guys like you don't want folks to see is that the conditions right now, and the effect on the working middle class, is headed right back in the direction that it has several other times in history when we allowed labor laws to be weakened, safety and regulatory laws to be gutted, and no protections from unfair imports.

Your lies worked OK, when folks couldn't feel what was going on behind the scenes. Now that the fruits of that planting are coming to harvest, people are becoming aware.

So it ain't over, bub. And saying it won't make it so.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 05:13 PM

JTS,

You've done nothing but show your true colors here.

You can call me ignorant all you want.
You can call me uninformed.
you can call me unknowledgable.
You can call me whatever you want.

But calling other people names in order to make yourself feel better does nothing but show that you would be willing to go to the extreme in order to push your views on to whomever you wish.

You've just shown the rest of the people of your unwillingness to talk and discuss your views just because someone someone pokes a hole in your little bubble of a world that you think is Utopia.


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:51 PM

"Do you think that your Lockheed Martin pals would have health care if it weren't for unions?"
>>Do you really think that I would know the answer to that question?


_______________________

This is the ideal place for me to end this conversation. If you knew anything about the business history of this country or the labour history of this country. You would know the answer to that. You are ignorant and willfully so. I am confident that ignorant is the right word. But if you can demonstrate some knowledge of the subject and show that you have come to your conclusions from an informed perspective, I would be pleased to apologize.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:49 PM

Then your bill of rights is perhaps a bit defective, and needs to be extended... After all it's 200 years old and more. One might be tempted to say say "Stop living in the past. It's over."

But then that's a remark that has been made by all kinds of people who thought they had a stranglehold on how the future was going to work out, but who turned out to be the flotsam of history.

What's that Obama keeps quoting about the aspiration to bring about a more perfect union"?



.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:35 PM

"Do you think that your Lockheed Martin pals would have health care if it weren't for unions?"

Do you really think that I would know the answer to that question?

JTS....there are many, many companies out there that have NO union representation and still provide health insurance for their employees.

By the way you're talking, if it weren't for unions then nobody would have healthcare.

That's why they call them "benefits".

benefit: Something that promotes or enhances well-being; an advantage.

There's nowhere in that definition that describes what you're talking about.

Don't tell me it's a right either. I've got the bill of rights right here beside me and nowhere does it say that we are entitled to health insurance, pensions, higher pay, dental, or even pet insurance.

My problem is not with the fact that business provides these benefits. I think it's great. It helps all involved.

My problem is with the fact that people like you and Mick insist of laying this issue on the backs of business owners because of a little jealousy of how they've managed to put a few dollars in the bank because of their sweat and toil, and for whatever reason, you can't feel good for them for truly taking advantage of the opportunities that this country puts forth.

Stop living in the past. It's over.

If jealousy is not the right word then I apologize in advance.

YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:19 PM

Good points Mick,

I agree with you totally
But doesn't calling it class warfare play into the hands of the ignorant? It is obvious that Susu's hubby has no idea how the prosperity that we now have came about or where someone in his "class" would be if it were not for labour laws and simple thing like fair enforcement of the Bill of Rights.

That's the power of what the propagandists have done. They have taught people to look at things as simple slogans and in black and white terms rather than informing themselves and trying to look at the totality of things and making choices in an intelligent manner.

By the way redistribution of wealth works both ways. The creation of wealth requires capital and labour and a social climate, that supports it and a market of consumers. Labor and the creation of the social climate and the market are the people. These factors and production are entitled to a collective voice. Who is to say that the owners of capital have any more right to the wealth than the society, the workers or the customers? It is the balance of all of these interests that make our prosperity.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:06 PM

Those things are not related.

God help you if you are ever living in the country that you think this is. Because if you don't have your own army you won't live very long.

There you are talking all greedy and selfish OOOOhhh don't interfere with MY pie with your labor laws. With out that type of law what's to stop someone with more goons and more lawyers than you from taking what is yours.

The thing about the US labor laws is that the were enacted not to prevent fat cats from stealing from people like you, but to stop them from doing it because they were doing it every day.

I don't distrust the government. I never said I did. I'm not talking out of the side of my mouth. You are not reading what I am writing. I wish, I sincerely wish that people like you and your Lockheed Martin could opt out of the protections that you oppose. That would be an incentive for you to learn how the world works.

You are putting all of this faith in corporations to look after you, to create jobs if we give them incentives, to prove healthcare etc because the market may demand it, even though you cannot be stupid enough to think that they are not designed to do so and would not do so if it were not for external factors.

Do you think that your Lockheed Martin pals would have health care if it weren't for unions? If you do you need to learn a little history.

Government is not perfect but it is necessary and it is the best wat to accomplish a number of things.

I don't know where you got the idea that I put "so much distrust" in government. Certainly it wasn't from anything I have said. I don't like George W. Bush. But he is a lazy arrogant little twerp who has done much to undermine government but even with that. The US government is strong and but for the leadership of his underqualified political appointees, quite well run.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:06 PM

You may use whatever terms you like, Susu's Hubby. And I will continue to challenge you. For example, your comment: I think that the communists call it "redistribution of wealth".

Yes, the Communists used that term. As did Socialists. As have many an Economist when describing the capitalist system. You, because your intellect and arguments are based on cliche's designed to elicit the aforementioned Pavlov's dog responses, act as though that is a bad thing. But I challenge you on that premise. All regulation results in a redistribution of wealth in some way or another. The only question is whom, or what special interest, do you want to favor in that redistribution. The difference between folks like me and folks like you is that I think that it makes better economic sense for there to be balance in the system that controls the distribution of wealth so that all have a chance at a decent standard of living. Not only that, but I believe it makes much greater economic sense for a larger number of folks to have a decent share of that wealth, as it drives the economy (for an example of this, see the middle 40 years of the 20th century). You think the redistribution of wealth should occur in a way (I think they call it laissez faire capitalism) which allows the wealth to gather in fewer and fewer hands, as occurred at the end of the 19th and early 20th century, and is occurring again now. That is the practical effect of the things you propose, as has been shown time and time again in history.

So nice try, .... no, actually it was rather sophomoric ..... at again trying to use code words and phrases to win the day. Trouble is, folks are figuring it out.

By the way, how come you never complain about the giveways to corporate interests? How come I never hear you complain about subsidizing the big boys with tax breaks which raise the costs to average families?

By the way, implying someone is a communist only works if that offends that person. I am not offended by that label, although it is not accurate. But then again, accuracy is not a priority for folks like you. You, and your boy McCain, prefer to use perceptual stereotypes as opposed to real debate with facts and such.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:51 PM

Mick,

Call it whatever you want.

I think that the communists call it "redistribution of wealth".

Is that term better in your book?

Let me know what terms are and aren't ok.


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:48 PM

I guess it depends on the definition of "Class warfare". I was using it in the sense that Susu's hubby was bandying it about. Folks for whom the depth of their arguments rests on throwing out cliche's and code words, as well as redefining old terms, only deserve to be responded to in a way that exposes them for the shills they are.'

What I would like to see in this country is a debate in which people didn't hear these code phrases and respond with Pavlov's dog responses but rather they get into a debate and be willing to have these often erroneous conditioned responses challenged and examined. I know this. The 20th Century was not the American century because of the power of the capitalists. It was driven by the great middle class wanting a better life and using its ingenuity and buying power to achieve it. Labor can't lay claim to the former, but it sure can lay claim to the latter. And the weakening of the labor movement through a misinformation campaign, and a political/legislative campaign, has led us to this moment in time. Americans, I hope, are starting to recognize who the antagonist is.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:42 PM

"Those friends that work at Lockheed Martin in Ft. Worth are being protected from their own short sightedness"


You see, that's where you and I differ JTS.

I don't believe that the government is there to protect us from ourselves.

This is a message of yours from another thread....

"Its NOT the role of the government to be everyone's employer....an even FURTHER EROSION of our rights. Look up the definition of 'tyranny',

It's not the governments role to give other people money to be employers either. Nor does either erode your rights. Eroding your rights is Bush's job. I know the definition of tyranny. It doesn't include giving someone money to paint a mural, dig a ditch or write a song."

So you're saying that even though it's not govt's position to be our employeer or better yet to give other people money to be our employeer it's still ok for them to tell the working man to give a "union" our money so that we won't suffer from our own "short-sightedness".

Please tell me that's not what you mean.

Besides the fact that it looks as if you're talking out of both sides of your mouth, it's pretty scary to think that a gov't who you place so much distrust in can be your savior as well.


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:37 PM

I see where you are coming from Mick. I'm not sure that I agree wholeheartedly. I don't want want warfare. I just want people who aren't rich to take the blinkers off, work to make society better for everyone, and to vote in their own self interest in stead of in the interest of people who are lying to them by spending billions on propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:34 PM

Workers have a right not to belong to a union. That's a legal right. We also, I would argue, have a duty to belong to a union, and that's a moral duty.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:32 PM

In my opinion it is time for some good old fashioned "class warfare". This is another of those words folks like you hijack and assign a different meaning to. The upper class has been at class war for years. It is their feeling that the wealth of this land should reside in the hands of the privileged few that are wise enough to use it.

Yep, I think it is time.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:24 PM

Those friends that work at Lockheed Martin in Ft. Worth are being protected from their own short sightedness. If they break strikes they will lose in the long run. The law that prevents them from breaking strikes and which requires them to join the union was 1. Passed because of employer abuses. 2. Hard fought by the employers with all of the BS you are spewing now 3. paid for in blood.

I sincerely wish that you would educate yourself about this. Corporations are not your friend. They are not anyone's friend. They are amoral and organized only for the purpose of making money. They need to be balanced by other forces in society, including responsible laws and worker's rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:12 PM

"Obscene compensation for CEO's whether they perform well or not, a widening gap between the richest and the rest, middle class families struggling, and fewer and fewer regulatory laws resulting in record mortgage foreclosures."


and what I was using was "rhetoric".

sounds like Class warfare 101 in my book.


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:09 PM

"The workers, and their unions, don't have that same power."

Oh...I beg to differ.

The unions do have that power to strike and bring a company to it's knees.

I've got quite a few friends that work at Lockheed Martin in Ft. Worth. They are part of the aerospace workers and the machinists union. Not by their own choice, mind you, but as a condition of employment.
Sure, they have the option of not working for the union and finding gainful employment elsewhere but the point here is that the last two times that they have been involved with the strike, they're "required" by the union to show up on the picket lines even though they voiced their differences and actually supported the company in the disagreements.

So don't tell me that the union is there as a voice for the workers.

They may have been a good thing at some point in the past but so was the feather quill and a bottle of ink.

Times have changed and companies now know that if they treat their employees with a little respect then productivity will increase therefore profits go up.

Times are a changin and we've got ballpoint's now.


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:09 PM

And where you are wrong is that you think that only the employer has the right to set conditions of employment.

A little history for you. Once upon a time in this great land of ours (sincere comment, shame I have to say that) it was as you wish it were now. During that time, the wealth of the land was held in a very few hands. As a result of this, employees/workers had little power and the conditions were horrific. Read The Jungle for a view of this time. Workers trying to withhold their labor were simply blackballed, oft times hunted down, jailed and killed. (How many examples you want?). As a result of some very brave people, and some very desperate actions, Congress finally came to realize that the employer, and owners of the capital, had all the cards. The arguments the capitalists used way back then are all the same slogans you so blithely mouth now. And this is over 100 years ago. As a result of brave actions, and union organizers, Congress came to the courage of their convictions and passed the first of the laws that later became what we now refer to as the National Labor Relations Act. As a result of that landmark recognition of the rights of workers to freely form unions, the middle class was allowed to grow and prosper. The powers of capital have been at war ever since, diluting the rights of workers, and attacking the laws. In the last 20 years they have been so successful that you now see the result. Obscene compensation for CEO's whether they perform well or not, a widening gap between the richest and the rest, middle class families struggling, and fewer and fewer regulatory laws resulting in record mortgage foreclosures.

So spare me the debate, Susu's hubby. Your rhetoric and your attempt to make this seem like a reasonable discussion just don't ring true. You are a shill for the powers that won't be happy until the USA is a third world country, and then those powers will just move on to the next great market place, China. I hope your grandchildren enjoy the legacy those that think like you are creating.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:57 PM

Mick,

You replied so much more calmly than I. Maybe you've dealt with this question before a time or two?

Seriously Susu's Hubby, Labour laws were hard won, necessary and they were literally paid for in blood.

I have some differences with some of the labour unions of today. But any look at the history will show that such laws are justified.

Listen to Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre. Its a true story. It was a common story at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:51 PM

Susu's hubby.

Labour laws were enacted because company goons were trapping people in halls at Christmas time and burning women and children to death.

You're against that? You say the laws should not have been enacted?

>>>If you don't like their rules to begin with then just don't play with that company.

Its not rocket science, but it is much, much more complicated than you seem to think

For one thing. This is a democracy. If enough of us don't like the rules, we can change the rules. If employers abuse workers too much, we will.

>>Don't ruin what others have just because you're not getting the biggest slice of the pie.
That's when you go bake your own and do it your way.

A union person could say the same to you. Do you think that you have special status because you own some stock? Why are you trying to ruin things for them. You self identified "conservatives" don't get to set the rules for the other 67 % of the country. Now that's not rocket science!

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:48 PM

Yes, Susu's Hubby, it is just as much a right for workers to organize not to form a union. It just isn't legal for the employer to do anything to abet that, or intimidate, or imply that that they will be displeased. You see, the law recognizes that they have a great deal of implied power to terminate employment. The workers, and their unions, don't have that same power. Nor do they have the employees captive in the worksite.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:41 PM

In other words, "Love it or Leave it"... Right, Yes??? That is a very narrow minded view of the way things in the real world are... Especially in an economy with unemployment rates around 6% and under-employment rates above 20%...

This current situation is Boss Hog's Perfect Storm... Low paying jobs and a labor force willing do do just about anything to get by during a time of high inflation... And don't give me any baloney about the official inflation rates... They are a joke... Ask the average guy on the street for the real deal on inflation... It ain't no secret... Only rich Republicans and their shills beleive the governemtn's official infaltion rates...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:14 PM

"When in fact labor laws had to be enacted to guard against things like this,"


That is just my point. Labor laws shouldn't ever "have" to be enacted.

It's anti-business and does nothing but drive companies away.

Above, Bobert commented about drivers in other states making more than he did for doing the same work. Do you know what that tells me?

If you're not satisfied with the way things are working out for you then go somewhere where it will work out for you. Don't try to penalize the employeer for not playing by your rules.

If you don't like their rules to begin with then just don't play with that company.

This is not rocket science folks.

Don't ruin what others have just because you're not getting the biggest slice of the pie.

That's when you go bake your own and do it your way.


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 01:47 PM

"Spanish speakers have been living in the present USA longer than English speakers."

                And Nordic speakers were living in the present USA before Spanish speakers.

_______________

In North America, yes. But they were explorers and traders and those that weren't killed went back to iceland. I don't know that there is evidence of pre-columbian Viking settlements outside of Newfoundland.

The descendants of the Spanish are still in the USA, many still speak spanish.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 01:40 PM

"Spanish speakers have been living in the present USA longer than English speakers."

                And Nordic speakers were living in the present USA before Spanish speakers.

                The point being...?

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 12:05 PM

The odd thing about right-to-work (14b of the Taft Hartley Act) is that there is a direct correlation between the states that have enatced these statutes and low per capita income... In other words, where as "right-to-work" sounds perfectly upstanding and American and all that underneath it are high rates of poverty...

And I've seen it up close in my life... Virginia is a right-to-work state... When I was living in Richmond and finally burned out at age 39 from all the various human service positions I had done for 20 years I needed to make a living so...

...I got a job driving a truck... I made $6.75 and hour delivering big rolls of paper to various places in Virginia... At alot of the places I would go I would run into drivers from states without right-to-work laws who were making 2 to 3 times as much money doing exactly the same job!!!

That is how it works in right-to-work states... 14b is the gift that keeps on giving to corportae America...

Heck, I could still take you to places in Richmond where people are still trying to live on minimum wages...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 11:17 AM

Spanish speakers have been living in the present USA longer than English speakers.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 08:46 AM

sorry, lost cookie


"Spanish speaking does not always mean illegal..."


          No, but when the state of Oregon quit issuing driver's licenses to illegals, the number of people taking the test in Spanish became almost nonexistent.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:09 AM

NAFTA, has more to do with dissolving our borders, equalizing Mexico, and Central America, and Canada, than it has anything to do with workers 'rights'. They must come up, to equalize, we must come down...
and they pulled it off!

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 01:57 AM

>>when you got to the service worker's union web page you can click whether you want it in English or Spanish.

Spanish speaking does not always mean illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 01:34 AM

>>So in my view, it's just as legal for a business to ward off a union as it is for an individual to try and organize one.

Susu's Hubby you are implying that somehow companies have not those rights. When in fact labor laws had to be enacted to guard against things like this, Woody Guthrie "1913 Massacre."


Listen to the song. Educate your self some on the labor movement. Congratulate yourself on having lead such a sheltered life so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 12:28 AM

"Since when did health insurance and pensions become bad words?"

Mick,

They aren't. But since when is it a company's responsibility to offer health insurance and pensions?

To my knowledge, and I'm no expert, but it seems that a business' responsibility is to make money. It may be a foreign concept to some but that's the way I see it.

Now if a business wants to offer to it's employees benefits such as health insurance and pensions then fine. They're well within their legal right to do so. It's, quite frankly, good business practice and will promote higher or greater productivity and maybe even loyalty from the employee.

So in my view, it's just as legal for a business to ward off a union as it is for an individual to try and organize one.

Tell me where I'm wrong in this line of thinking.


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 12:04 AM

Rig is right it happens all the time.

I wonder where you get these idea's susu's hubby.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 12:01 AM

Well, YES, that's a hard one to answer. If you mean would it be all right for WalMart, Sears, K-mart and J.C. Penney's to go together to prevent unions. I think that's been tried, and has been determined to constitute unfair labor practices.

                      But for individual workers to group together to prevent a union from coming into a shop, I think that's done all the time. Often, old time employees with years of senority will lose benefits and bonuses and things under union organization. If they have the clout, the union fails to organize.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:52 PM

So if it's ok to organize in order to form a union then wouldn't the same be ok if people organized in order to keep from forming a union?


I'm just asking.


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:59 PM

Jack - The get driver's licenses, the get social security cards, the get credit cards, they buy houses and cars, they open bank accounts, when you got to the service worker's union web page you can click whether you want it in English or Spanish...


                I'd be amazed if there aren't thousands of them that are members of legal unions.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:08 PM

We get illegal immigrant stories here from time to time. I just can't imagine them getting in to a legal union.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:58 PM

Unions get behind illegal workers
AFL-CIO lends hand to day laborers with offers of aid, advocacy.
By Christian Zappone, CNNMoney.com staff writer
August 17 2006: 1:57 PM EDT


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- As politicians grapple with the thorny immigration issue, unions are stepping into the debate on the side of illegal immigrant labor.

Last week, the AFL-CIO signed what it calls a "historic partnership agreement" with the National Day Laborer Organizing Network, an association of 40 worker centers nationwide.



Under the agreement local AFL-CIO unions will be allowed to establish formal ties with the local worker centers. The unions then work with and defend the NDLON centers as they seek decent labor standards and working conditions for their illegal workers.

The NDLON sprung up in 2000 as a collaborative effort between community-based organizations' worker centers that support day laborers - overwhelmingly poor, illegal immigrants from Latin America - by providing meeting spaces, staff to handle workplace violations, and access to healthcare, English classes and workers' rights education.

Under the agreement, the AFL-CIO will also combat anti-immigration legislation and pursue immigration reform with a "clear path" to citizenship.

By offering the advantages of organized labor, without actually unionizing the illegals, the AFL-CIO also hopes to raise the wage floor in the local labor markets and in turn take pressure off wages paid to local union members, too.

"In many ways this is unprecedented for the modern labor movement," said labor historian Joseph A. McCartin, of Georgetown University. "The AFL-CIO was for immigration enforcement in 1999."

McCartin says the labor movement must reinvent itself in this way if it wants to continue after years of declining influence.

Day laborers represent a sliver of all illegal workers in the United States. There are an estimated 117,000 day laborers in the U.S. economy, according to a 2006 National Day Labor Study. About half are employed by homeowners, while 43 percent work as construction contractors.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:47 PM

Probably details and specifics are not going to become available until after the story is broken by a major corporate news source. As long as they're motivated not to print it, the general public will not believe it.

                   A lot of things are that way now. You can see something happening on a day to day basis, but unless it shows up in the New York Times or somewhere, it doesn't exist. This is particularly true with stories that involve illegal immigrants.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:53 PM

Printing brochures about their rights is not organizing. Though it could be a precursor.
I still don't see how illegal workers can be in a legal union. I guess the union could be building up good will in the hope that John McCain's amnesty proposal comes to fruition.

There isn't much information in what you posted Rig. I am more interested in the details and specific than in whether some guy with a computer and a blogging account says it is so.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:42 AM

We know it's going on. Union management care most about finding dues paying members and keeping themselves in power. Most of them seem to care little about rank and file members.

                   The attached article is from a BLOG, so it's hard to verify. However is is an AP clip attached.



United Food And Commercial Workers Union Aiding Illegal Alien Workers
By Digger

The United Food and Commercial Workers union obviously cares about collecting union dues. They care so much that they are willing to help out illegal aliens who are driving down the wages of workers they represent and taking jobs from Americans.

Their latest action to aid illegal aliens... sending out bilingual immigration rights kits to help those illegal aliens who get caught. Specifically ones who are terrified they will be busted in a meat packing plant raid. And before you fool yourself into thinking this is an isolated incident many, many unions are doing this. Service Employees International Union (SEIU) comes to mind, where they actually sponsor illegal alien marches and lobby Congress for amnesty.

AP
the United Food and Commercial Workers union has printed a bilingual immigration rights kit it plans to distribute nationwide to workers in the coming weeks. The kit includes practical information, legal documents and sample letters.

"We want to make sure they (immigration officials) don't take advantage of our people," said Martin Rosas, secretary-treasurer for UFCW in Dodge City.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:13 AM

"Very astute observation, Riggy. The wobblies were simply about 100 years or so ahead of their time. Their message is more relevant now than it ever was before..."


                Yes sir, Big Mick, I agree completely. They're still in business, by the way, or were a year or so back. The passing of Utah Phillips had to be a set back.


                Worker of the World Arise!

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 01:14 AM

I did a search and found an article about Unionization of immigrants not too far from here in tar Heel NC. The article said nothing about illegals. For reasons I have stated. I don't find the organization of illegals plausible. But if you, perhaps from the same sources that you have them them from before. hear of an example of successfully organized illegal immigrants, I would be happy to hear about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 01:07 AM

John.

I don't even know what the hell you are talking about. But the little bit you have said piqued my interest.

As a student of labor law. I have a lot of doubts about the organization of illegal immigrants. Unions are difficult to organize as it is. But it seems to me that the membership roster of an organization of illegal workers under current laws, especially under the Bush administration would be little more than a list of people to deport. Come on man. How can they have a right to strike if they don't even have a legal right to work? And if you do strike. There are always more illegals.

I have no doubt that you might hear about this on right wing talk radio. I've heard stranger things. I also don't doubt that there might be some idealist dumb enough to try to organize them. But I can't see these attempts as any serious threat to legitimate, legal worker's jobs. Certainly unionized illegals would be less a threat to US workers than non unionized ones would. Have you studied labour economics at all?

If there was such a case, the successful organization of illegal workers, I would be very interested in finding out more. Please tell me more. But I have no interest in refuting you.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:53 AM

Jack, I apologize for the flippantness of my answer tabout refuting me. Let me put more diplomatically. I know of instances of what I say. I have no interest in looking into specific incidents...there are things of more interest for me to research. However, you may want to look into it, to find out if it is the problem I allege.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:46 AM

To say we disagree on that is classic understatement. And I believe it to be gratuitous.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:35 AM

Jack, in the California, there have been many such efforts. Can I name one offhand, no. If you want to refute me, look into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:33 AM

Mick, it this thread had been anti-golden parachute, and anti-obscene compensation for executives, I' would agree with you. Likewise if it had been about obscene, obsecene contracts for movie and televison stars, or superstar athletes, I would agree with you. But that wasn't the subject of the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:29 AM

>>> In fact, unions are part of the illegal alien problem, organizing low wage illegal immigrants to the detriment of legal workers.<<<

Do you have any documentation of this? It seems very shady.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:26 AM

Jack, Mick I'm referring to papers that closed down long before cable television and the internet were problems for them, I know it's worse now. Look, I have no brief for companies. I have no love for unions. In fact, unions are part of the illegal alien problem, organizing low wage illegal immigrants to the detriment of legal workers. Union leaders, as well as employers should be prosecuted for their complicity in abetting those workers, and thereby also keeping labor's wages deflated.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:23 AM

Very astute observation, Riggy. The wobblies were simply about 100 years or so ahead of their time. Their message is more relevant now than it ever was before.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:19 AM

Unions are probably a good idea, the problem as I see it is, now that everyone's economies are global, unions will have to go global as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:08 AM

John, the comment about newspapers is beneath you. The newspaper unions aren't putting them out of business, computers and the internet are. You vilify unions for doing all they can to maintain such dirty words as pensions and health insurance. Only in this country do we assign blame downward in this way. I never hear conservatives going after the golden parachutes and obscene compensation packages of American CEO's, yet if a union goes on strike against a profitable company that is attempting to cut wages and benefits, right away it is "those greedy unions". Since when did health insurance and pensions become bad words? And why do you allow the use of code words for them, such as "legacy costs"?

I am sorry to hear about your Father, and I understand your animus. But your story is a demagogic attempt to paint the union movement in a bad light based on one story, albeit a personal one. For every one of those stories you come up with, after 30 years of organizing I can give you a hundred that show how the union helped workers, saved jobs, allowed them to retire with dignity, and made safer, more productive workplaces.

And if you come to Detroit and poll the worker/victims of the newspaper strike, you will find they overwhelmingly felt that they had no choice. I would not say they are happy, or that they would like to do it again, but they knew that they were forced to take action and stayed with their convictions. And btw, the company that forced that strike was very profitable and wasn't forcing the strike to stay in business. They simply wanted to increase their profitability not based on their management/marketing abilities, but on the backs of their workers. And the CEO got a bonus for breaking them down.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:06 AM

I think that newspaper unions are shutting down because ad revenue is disappearing.

Unions, moderation are a good thing. The same can be said for free market capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 11:57 PM

RB--What is a neocon--nobody has ever answered that question. I think you just mean conservatives you don't agree with.

My beef with unions is personal and goes back nearly 60 years when the Teamsters put my father, a sole proprietor bakery route driver out of business until he joined the union. So unions can be just as hard on workers as the bosses.

While businesses can be ruthless, so can unions. Ask all those folks in the newspaper unions who force the papers to shut down.

There is good and bad in both.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 11:37 PM

Government doesn't support either workers or companies, John, at least technically. But in practice, since the Reagan era, the laws that protect the workers right to organize have literally been weakened to the point of making them effectively pro management. This law is simply an attempt to put some balance back in the equation so a worker doesn't have to worry about losing his/her job for exercising a right guaranteed under US law.

And here is a newsflash for all those "America - land of opportunity for all that want to work" kind of patriots. Among the most important reasons that the 20th century, particularly the middle 35 years or so, was the American century was the liberalization of labor laws that encouraged the developement of a middle class with buying power. Conservatives love to worship at the altar of the "job creators/wealth creators", and credit them with America's greatness. But we have seen times in this country, like the late 19th century were the laws favored the wealthy. The conditions were very much like they are now after the sowing of the seeds of trickle down economics. America's prosperity got squandered for all but the very wealthy. Another example of what happens when you create an environment which allows capitalism with no significant controls would be Mexico after NAFTA. Remember how that was supposed to improve the standard of living for the residents along the border? Nothing of the sort happened. The engine that drove the American miracle was a system of laws that could evolve and morph our economy, coupled with an emerging middle class with buying power.

This law would do more to stimulate the economy than any of the proposed plans. The employers, such as Walmart, will raise the typical straw man arguments that they use now in organizing drives. They can only win with half truths and misconceptions. And they are very effective at doing that. In fact, Walmart's having a meeting to discourage their workers and scare them into contacting their Congress persons, is a typical example of the tactic. Folks need their jobs, yet they know they are underpaid, their benefits suck, and the company is obscenely profitable. When the company, simply by implication, makes them feel like they could lose their job for supporting fair labor laws, it is coercive and takes a fair debate out of the equation.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 11:36 PM

But, naturally, in the land of the neocon, it is perfectly acceptable for organised capital to prevent unionised workers from working.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 11:17 PM

Goverments should support neither unions nor employers, except to assure that neither hinders the activities of the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 10:15 PM

Twenty-two states have Right to Work statutes, i. e., workers cannot be forced to unionize. This makes it difficult for organizers to make any demands.

Subject: BS: Good news for Wal-Mart organizers?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 08:27 PM

Telling employees how to vote?

I know we have at least one member who may have direct knowledge. Are there new laws that favor unions in the works? Will it be fillibustered?