BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: GUEST,Beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 06:58 AM

"For example, a recent press report on such purchases quoted Israel's Deputy Housing Minister, Meir Porush:

The Palestinian Authority is encouraging purchases of land in Israeli territory by wealthy Palestinians. It is a matter of Palestinian figures tied to the real estate business, and living mainly in London, who try to purchase homes and lands in Jerusalem through agents and lawyers who live mainly in Ramallah. (Yediot Ahranot, 3 January 1997)

One should note that Ramallah is in the West Bank and is under PA control, meaning that these purchasers are clearly not Israeli citizens."

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 06:52 AM

Private land in Israel
There are no restrictions on private land transfers in Israel. Private land can be purchased or leasaed by Israeli Arabs or by non-citizens. Such land can be, and has been, purchased by Israeli Arabs and by foreigners, including Arab foreigners.

The Israeli government has announced plans to privatize much of Israel's state-owned land and offer cheap building permits to Israelis willing to move to less-desirable parts of the country, away from the crowded central area.

Contrast with Arab Policies
The relatively unrestricted access to land in Israel is in sharp contrast with Arab policies. During the 1948-1967 Jordanian occupation of Judea and Samaria (the West Bank), for example, Jews were forbidden to live there under pain of death. In 1973, under the direct instructions of King Hussein, the government of Jordan passed the Law for Preventing the Sale of Immoveable Property to the Enemy. The "enemy" defined in Article 2 as:

... any man or judicial body [corporation] of Israeli citizenship living in Israel or acting on its behalf.
This law, or equivalent, continued in effect under the Palestinian Authority (PA). By 1997, 172 people had been sentenced to death under this law, although "only" about 10 have been executed. The law is invalid under the Oslo II agreement and is one of the many violations of the Oslo peace process agreements by the PA. Palestinian land dealers in PA controlled areas have been murdered as "collaborators", a practice that was publically condoned by Yasser Arafat.

In 1995, following the peace treaty between Israel and Jordan, the Jordanian Parliament repealed the 1973 law and replaced it with milder statutes that still effectively bar Israelis from purchasing or leasing land in Jordan.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_israel_land.php

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 06:51 AM

"Another Israeli Arab informed me that Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights. In fact, Israel is one of the few countries in the Middle East where Arab women can vote. In contrast to the non-Israeli Arab world, Arab women in Israel enjoy the same status as men. Muslim women have the right to vote and to be elected to public office. Muslim women, in fact are more liberated in Israel than in any Muslim country. Israeli law prohibits polygamy, child marriage, and the barbarity of female sexual mutilation.

Moreover, I found out that there are no incidences of honor killings in Israel. The status of Muslim women in Israel is far above that of any country in the region. Israeli health standards are by far the highest in the Middle East and Israeli health institutions are freely open to all Arabs, on the same basis as they are to Jews.

Arabic, like Hebrew, is an official language in Israel and underlines the tolerant nature of the Jewish State. All the street signs call out their names in Arabic alongside Hebrew. It is official policy of the Israeli government to foster the language, culture, and traditions of the Arab minority, in the educational system and in daily life. Israel's Arabic press is the most vibrant and independent of any country in the region. There are more than 20 Arabic periodicals. They publish what they please, subject only to the same military censorship as Jewish publications. There are daily TV and radio programs in Arabic.

Arabic is taught in Jewish secondary schools. More than 350,000 Arab children attend Israeli schools. At the time of Israel's founding, there was one Arab high school in the country. Today, there are hundreds of Arab schools. Israeli universities are renowned centers of learning in the history and literature of the Arab Middle East.

Aware of the constraints that a non-Wahhabi is faced with while performing religious rituals in Saudi Arabia, Kiran (my wife) could not hide her surprise at the freedoms and ease with which peoples of all religions and faiths were carrying out their religious obligations at the Church of the holy Sepulcher, Garden Tomb, Sea of Galilee, newly discovered Western Wall Tunnels, Western Wall, tomb of King David and all the other holy places we visited.

All religious communities in Israel enjoy the full protection of the State. Israeli Arabs --Muslims, as well as many Christian denominations -- are free to exercise their faiths, to observe their own weekly day of rest and holidays and to administer their own internal affairs. Some 80,000 Druze live in 22 villages in northern Israel. Their religion is not accessible to outsiders and Druze constitute a separate cultural, social and religious Arabic-speaking community. The Druze concept of taqiyya calls for complete loyalty by its adherents to the government of the country in which they reside. As such, among other things, the Druze serve in the Israel Defense Forces. Each religious community in Israel has its own religious councils and courts, and has full jurisdiction over religious affairs, including matters of personal status, such as marriage and divorce. The holy sites of all religions are administered by their own authorities and protected by the government.

A Hindu journalist who came to visit me talked about the openness that Jewish society represents. He told me that more than 20% of the Israeli population is non-Jewish of which approximately 1.2 million are Muslims, 140,000 are Christians and 100, 000 are Druze. Another non-Jewish Israeli told me that Christians and Druze are free to join even the defense forces of the Jewish State. Bedouins have served in paratroops units and other Arabs have volunteered for military duty.

The big houses owned by Arab Israelis and the amount of construction that was going on in the Arab towns exposed the falsity of propaganda that Israel discriminates against Israeli Arabs from buying lands. I found out that in the early part of the century, the Jewish National Fund was established by the World Zionist Congress to purchase land in Palestine for Jewish settlement. Of the total area of Israel, 92 percent belongs to the State and is managed by the Land Management Authority. It is not for sale to anyone, Jew or Arab.


The existence of Israel will one day convince the Muslims of the necessity of reformation in their theology as well as sociology.   

The Arab Waqf owns land that is for the express use and benefit of Muslim Arabs. Government land can be leased by anyone, regardless of race, religion or sex. All Arab citizens of Israel are eligible to lease government land.

I asked three Israeli Arabs if they face discrimination in employment. They all said the same thing; normally there is no discrimination but whenever homicide bombers explode and murder Israelis, some Israelis feel uncomfortable dealing with them. But that uncomfortable feeling is also very temporary and does not stay for long. "


http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/israeldiary/A_Muslim_in_a_Jewish_Land.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: EBarnacle
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 03:37 PM

As mentioned above, Jews are not allowed to live in Jordan. Many of the Arab states have, at least, a few Jews residing within their boundaries. In how many of them are Jews allowed to own real estate?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 02:55 PM

Back at ya. And a sweet Passover to all who so celebrate. Happy Easter to all Christian 'catters.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 02:35 PM

Chag Pesach Sameach, John

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 02:22 PM

Please forgive me for misapprehending you, artbrooks.

However, those folks who make that argument generally are neither stupid, nor making a stupid argument. They know full well that they are using the term to equate Jews with Nazis and other such anti-Semites for their own arguments sake.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 07:41 AM

"The two most significant decisions of the conference were to offer the throne of Iraq to Emir Faisal ibn Hussein (who became Faisal I of Iraq) and an emirate of Transjordan (now Jordan) to his brother Abdullah ibn Hussein (who became Abdullah I of Jordan). Transjordan was to be constituted as an Arab province of Palestine. The conference provided the political blueprint for British administration in both Iraq and Transjordan, and in offering these two regions to the sons of Sharif Husssein ibn Ali of the Hedjaz, Churchill believed that the spirit, if not the letter, of Britain's wartime promises to the Arabs might be fulfilled.

After further discussions between Churchill and Abdullah in Jerusalem, it was mutually agreed that Transjordan was accepted into the mandatory area with the proviso that it would be, initially for six months, under the nominal rule of the Emir Abdullah and would not form part of the Jewish national home to be established west of the River Jordan.[43] [44]

That agreement was formalized before the mandate officially went into effect. In September 1922, the British government presented a memorandum to the League of Nations stating that Transjordan would be excluded from all the provisions dealing with Jewish settlement, and this memorandum was approved on 23 September. A clause was added to the charter governing the Mandate for Palestine which allowed Great Britain to postpone or permanently withhold all of the provisions which related to the 'Jewish National Home' on lands which lay to the east of the Jordan River.[45][46]

From that point onwards, Britain administered the part west of the Jordan, 23% of the entire territory, as "Palestine", and the part east of the Jordan, 77% of the entire territory, as "Transjordan." Technically they remained one mandate but most official documents referred to them as if they were two separate mandates. Transfer of authority to an Arab government took place gradually in Transjordan, starting with the recognition of a local administration in 1923 and transfer of most administrative functions in 1928. Britain retained mandatory authority over the region until it became fully independent as the Hashemite Kingdom of Trans-Jordan in 1946."

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 07:16 AM

On the other hand, Jordan, the Arab Moslim homeland ( from 1923 onward) has what level of Jewish participation in government and citizenship?







Trick question- Jews are forbidden to settle in Jordan. By LAW.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: Kent Davis
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 10:41 PM

Israel's population is 20% Arab. Parts of Galilee have an Arab majority. Majalli Wahabi, an Arabic-speaking Israeli Druze, is Deputy Speaker of the Knesset now and, briefly, in February, 2007, was Israel's acting head of state. Twelve of the 120 members of the Knesset (parliament) are Arab. If Israel is practicing ethnic cleansing, it's extraordinarily bad at it.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 10:14 PM

It was an attempt to demonstrate that misuse of a definition is essentially stupid. Clearly, I did not reach the audience at which I was aimed.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 09:10 PM

What then?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 08:34 PM

Sorry, but no. None of the above.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 07:21 PM

artbrooks--"Anti-Semitic" has a very specific use and meaning, and has for well over one hundred years--anti-Jewish. We have had this discussion at Mudcat at least twice. Anyone who uses anti-Semistism, anti-Semite or anti=Semitic with respect to Arabs (and especially to call Jews anti-Semites, thereby) is either being cute, disingenuous, or worse I hope you are just being cute.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 06:10 PM

So...they are the same, then.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 06:07 PM

Main Entry:
    3race
Function:
    noun
Etymology:
    Middle French, generation, from Old Italian razza
Date:
    1580

1: a breeding stock of animals2 a: a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b: a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics3 a: an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species ; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group b: breed c: a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits4obsolete : inherited temperament or disposition5: distinctive flavor, taste, or strength

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race%5B3%5D

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 05:54 PM

Jews, which includes most Israelis, are Semites. Arabs, which includes most Palestinians, are Semites. I guess that makes Israelis anti-Semitic, if you consider the Semitic subset of the Caucasian subset of the Human race to be a discrete racial grouping.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 05:36 PM

By the way, the Palestinians never denied Jews ownership of land in the area that is now Israel and occupied Palestine. So saying that the Palestinians should be punished because Ottoman Turks and other Arabs denied Jews rights of property ownership is racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 05:33 PM

I have accepted that there may not be a law. But there is a policy, the evidence of which is that no land ever passes from Jewish ownership to Palestinian ownership in Israel or East Jerusalem and the rest of the West Bank. It only passes from Palestinian ownership to Jewish ownership. And that was the point of what I was saying, law or no law, and is the reason for the PA not wanting Palestinians to sell their land to Jews, and thereby assist the government of Israel committing ethnic cleansing against them.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 01:21 PM

" haven't seen any refutation yet of what I said about Israeli policy that land is only to be sold to Jews by non-Jews, but not sold to non-Jews by Jews."

I do not have any idea what Israeli POLICY is, but you stated the LAW, which I have refuted. THERE IS NO SUCH LAW.

I doubt YOU know what Israeli policy is, either- ( My opinion) BUT I beleive that we both know what the Moslim LAW states.

If Palestinians are justified in such a law because of Israeli policies, then you have to admit that Israel was justified in an equal law because of Ottoman , European, and Arab LAWS against Jewish property ownership. Unless you deny what the Arab nations have claimed, that they intended to wipe out the Jews. I have given a lot of quotes from ARAB leaders and publications that support that statement, so be careful when you say it is not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 01:08 PM

I haven't seen any refutation yet of what I said about Israeli policy that land is only to be sold to Jews by non-Jews, but not sold to non-Jews by Jews.

_______________________


On the occasion of Passover, this from Adam Horowitz...

http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/gazas-passover-palestinians-are-now-the-ones-saying-let-my-people-go.html

This year at Passover it is Palestinians who are demanding 'Let my people go!'

Yesterday Phil posted a piece I had published in the Philadelphia Daily News. Below is the full unedited version. As Passover begins tonight and the massacre of Deir Yassin is remembered tomorrow, let us all rededicate ourselves to working for liberation and freedom for all.

Through the ritual of the Seder, Passover tells the story of the Pharaoh's oppression of the Jews in ancient Egypt and their eventual emancipation from slavery. It is a time of reflection, and after the recent war in Gaza many Jews are asking - who are the slaves and who is the Pharaoh?

The war saw over 1,417 Palestinians killed, over 900 of whom were civilians. This is opposed to 13 Israelis. In addition, the Israeli attack laid waste to Gaza destroying schools, United Nations facilities and homes. The facts of the invasion are still coming to light including Israeli soldiers own stories of defiling Palestinians homes with racist graffiti and following orders to intentionally kill unarmed civilians. The war in Gaza is not only a devastating event for Palestinians but also the moral challenge of our time to the American Jewish community whose communal leadership supported the onslaught publicly and loudly. This year, Passover gives us a chance to reflect on this war, our history and our responsibility.

Gaza has led to a growing acknowledgment of Israel's brutal treatment of Palestinians throughout its history. This year by coincidence the beginning of Passover also falls near an important anniversary - Deir Yassin Day. Deir Yassin was a Palestinian village destroyed by Zionist militias on April 9, 1948. During this massacre more than 100 men, women and children were killed. As word of the Deir Yassin massacre, and others like it, spread through Palestine many residents fled their homes out of fear, expecting they would be able to return after the fighting subsided. Within a year of the massacre, Deir Yassin, which had been emptied of Palestinians, was re-populated with Jewish immigrants and its name was erased from the map. During the war of 1948 that ended in the establishment of the state of Israel, over 530 Palestinian villages were similarly destroyed and all Palestinian refugees, whether their homes were destroyed or not, have been prevented from returning. For Palestinians this history is known as Al Nakba, Arabic for "The Catastrophe."

Passover is a story of freedom that has resonated through the ages for many people as a story of redemption and liberation. It also helps form the core of the Jewish ethical tradition which exhorts us to stand for justice and in solidarity with the oppressed - "You shall not oppress a stranger, for you know the feelings of the stranger, having yourselves been strangers in the land of Egypt" (Exodus 23:9). And yet, to tell the story of Passover in the same way after Deir Yassin and after Gaza is to be willfully blind. Jews are not only the slave - but also the Pharaoh. We need to be able to tell this story.

After Gaza it is irresponsible for us to only view ourselves through the lens of victimhood; we must also take responsibility and grapple with our reality as oppressors.

The Passover Seder is about learning and teaching - using the stories of the past to understand our place in the world today. The story of Egypt is told and remembered through ritual, questioning and story telling. This year a group of Jewish activists in Philadelphia are using the Seder ritual to wrestle with the Jewish history of being both slave and Pharaoh. On April 7 and 8 the organization Philadelphia Jews for a Just Peace are holding "From Deir Yassin to Gaza: an 18 hour Passover Vigil" outside the Israeli Consulate in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. This event will combine a memorial to Deir Yassin, a Passover ritual remembering the past as well as a teach-in, and discussion. Philadelphia Jews for a Just Peace is holding this event to understand the past and take responsibility for its legacies in the present.

This vigil will not elide the complexities of our history, but engage with them. Not stuck in the role of perpetual victim or heartless oppressor this event offers a model of the discussion the Jewish community needs to be having right now - what is our response when we are the ones being told "Let my people go?" Asking this question, and taking responsibility to act, are the first steps on the path of compassion, accountability and justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 11:24 AM

"that once Jews own it, it can never be sold to anyone who is not a Jew, according to Israeli law. "

AND I HAVE SHOWN THIS TO BE FALSE-

But I am still looking for ANY records of land SALES , since from before 1900 the land has been primarily ( 80%+) OWNED by the government(s) and NOT sold to ANY individuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 11:19 AM

Building a home is not the same thing buying land.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 11:02 AM

"precedent-setting ruling in 2000 in favor of Adel Kaadan, an Israeli Arab who successfully petitioned the court for the right to build a home in the Jewish community of Katzir. "


Here is a name of a non-Jew building a home in a Jewish community.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 10:52 AM

The Israeli Supreme Court has been ignored in this case. The decision itself is not evidence of sale of land to non-Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 10:46 AM

(searching for any records of land sales in Israel...)

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 10:45 AM

February 4, 2005
TEL AVIV - In 1901, the fledgling Zionist movement took one of its first major leaps - the creation of a fund to buy land to settle Jews in Palestine.

More than 100 years later, Israel's attorney general has decided the Jewish National Fund must make its land available to all Israeli citizens - both Jews and Arabs.

Some have welcomed Attorney General Menachem Mazuz's recent decision as a step toward fuller democracy in Israel, which long has struggled with the tension of being both a homeland for Jews - with a certain amount of "affirmative action" for them -and a democracy that serves all citizens equally.

But others have condemned the decision as surrender to a post-Zionist worldview where political correctness comes before Jewish peoplehood.

Mazuz's statement, released last week, said "The attorney general is convinced that the Israel Lands Authority as a government body is obligated to uphold the principles of equality. This obligation includes the marketing of lands belonging to the JNF."
.....

JNF Chairman Yehiel Leket noted in the statement that the JNF owns 13 percent of land in Israel, and 80 percent is owned by the government. Arabs and Jews own some 6.5 percent privately.


-------------------------------------------------------

"For many years, there were individual cases of non-Jews interested in buying an apartment or house that was situated on KKL/JNF land. To avoid state sanctioned discrimination, the KKL/JNF and the ILA simply exchanged property. The non-Jew was allowed to purchase the property, it became an ILA holding and the ILA gave a similar property to KKL/JNF. As long as the laws and regulations regarding ILA and KKL/JNF lands remained identical, this arrangement was considered a sometimes bureaucratic but satisfactory way to address the 5-10 annual occurrences. In practice, a legal fiction helped maintain both the KKL/JNF ownership of "the Jewish people's land" and equal access to land sales for Jews and non-Jews alike.

Here is the complicated part. A person who owns an apartment or house on KKL/JNF land doesn't actually own the land under the building, but rather holds a 49 year renewable lease. In 2004, as part of an effort to simplify land ownership, the government changed the ILA regulations to allow people to actually purchase the ILA land and the building. This created differences between the KKL/JNF and the ILA lands and essentially made it complicated for the two agencies to continue the 43 year "property swap" practice.

This predictably triggered an appeal to the Israeli High Court of Justice (hence my comment about the vibrant Israeli democracy) and in 2004 the court decided that the ILA couldn't discriminate against non-Jewish citizens even when administering KKL/JNF lands. When the ILA did not implement the court decision, the Attorney General ruled that the policy was discriminatory and he would not defend it in the High Court, first in 2005 and again this spring (another healthy dose of Israeli democracy at work)."


-------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.meforum.org/370/can-arabs-buy-land-in-israel

"By the eve of statehood, the JNF had acquired a total of 936,000 dunums of land; another 800,000 dunums had been acquired by other Jewish organizations or individuals.11 These holdings amounted to some 8.6 percent of the total land of what would later be Israel; of the rest, more than 70 percent were public lands vested in the British Mandatory authorities.12 All the lands purchased by the JNF remained in JNF hands; these were never sold, either to Jews or Arabs, but instead were leased on a long—term basis for kibbutzim and other forms of Jewish settlement.

With the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, the new government inherited the state-owned lands formerly in the possession of British Mandatory authority as well as property abandoned by Arab refugees. The government sold some of this land to the JNF, and retained the rest. In 1960, the Israeli parliament passed a series of land laws including the "Basic Law: Israel Lands" that defined government-owned and JNF-owned land both as "Israel lands." It reiterated the principle that these lands would only be leased, not sold. While the JNF retained ownership of its lands, the 1960 laws turned administrative responsibility for these (as well as government-owned) properties to a newly-created agency, the Israel Land Administration (ILA).13

The land-owning situation in Israel today is as follows: 80.4 percent is owned by the government, 13.1 percent is privately owned by the JNF, and 6.5 percent is evenly divided between private Arab and Jewish owners. Thus, the ILA administers 93.5 percent of the land in Israel.14 Put differently, 93.5 percent of the land is unavailable for private ownership; such land is sold neither to Jews nor to Arabs but is leased out by the ILA."

______________________________________________________________________

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 10:12 AM

Go ahead and present the evidence, and we'll see. I would suggest making it current, like in the last decade or so.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 10:01 AM

"no property ever passes from Jew to non-Jew in Israel and Palestine"

So the presentation of a single property being sold by a Jew to a non-Jew would invalidate your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 09:51 AM

Personal attacks that do not make any points, but only serve to try to smear people, of which there is one in this thread, are done for the purpose of silencing people. They (including the on in this thread), do not refute or challenge any points. Their only purpose is to stifle those who challenge the views held by those making the attacks. I was not referencing any posts by the above poster when I made the comment about people supporting ethnic cleansing.

I will rephrase what I said about the law. The government of Israel has a policy that no property will pass from Jews to non-Jews, but will only pass from non-Jews to Jews. This policy is being successfully carried out by the government through the use of several methods, all of which are described in links provided in previous posts of mine in this thread.

However, I will reiterate what I said before... no property ever passes from Jew to non-Jew in Israel and Palestine. Property only passes from non-Jew to Jew, in particular, from Palestinian to Jew. And this is why the PA has decided it needs to make it very costly for Palestinians to sell property to Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 08:50 AM

"Their attempts to silence my voice in these discussions "

Sorry, but I see no attempts to silence you- just hold you to facts and make you support the claims you insist are facts.

I would protest loudly if you were NOT allowed to post your views- but when you state something as a fact, I will insist that you have support for it.

There is NO Israeli law that prohibits the selling of property to Palestians OR Moslims. There are laws prohibiting the sale of SOME lands to individuals of any religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 08:29 PM

I'm not allowed to quote people in the Mudcat. However, I was responding to the continual attacks that someone in this thread makes on me when I post to threads like this one. Their attempts to silence my voice in these discussions suggests to me that they support the policies and practices of the government of Israel, which is in the process of ethnically cleansing the Palestinian population.

_____________


It's not Hamas who is enforcing this fatwa. It's Fatah who issued it and who are enforcing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 08:06 PM

Carol, you are neatly eliding the sense of the original post that the Palestinian Authority has no trouble prosecuting death sentences. This is an understatement when it comes to Hamas which has no trouble administering death sentences 'street-side' to the odd lost Israeli, Palestinian accused of collaboration, and of course, Fatah supporter.

Unless you are simply justifying the Palestinian practice of alignment of their support via threat of and carrying out of, death sentences.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 07:41 PM

And please tell us who, exactly and what words were used, are the individuals "in this thread who appear to advocate ethnic cleansing"?   Or is simple disagreement with what you allege, Carol, considered to be proof of that?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 07:26 PM

Why sell it anyway??? If the Isrealis want it they'll just take it... They have shown that...

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 07:13 PM

Here's the blog of another American Jew who has lived in Palestine and is not married to a Palestinian. Wendy has spent four of her summers living in Palestine in solidarity with the Palestinians...

http://wendypalestine.blogspot.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 04:44 PM

My last post was not in response to the post above it, but to points made in a couple of other posts. I crossposted with the poster immediately following my last post and do not have a comment about that post at this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 04:42 PM

Well, unlike those in this thread who appear to advocate ethnic cleansing, I tend to view the Palestinians' law as a desperate attempt to prevent their being ethnically cleansed, and while I'm not a big fan of capital punishment, I definitely understand where they're coming from. They don't have the luxury of making easy decisions, like whether they want to go to Outback or McDonalds for dinner. They have to find a way to be able to have a place to live while they are systematically being cleared from their homes and farms, and cast out with nowhere to go, while their homes and farms are being systematically destroyed so that they can be taken over by Israeli Jews.

The government of Israel is helping Jews privately buy Palestinian land as a part of this process of ethnic cleansing, because many Palestinians are unable to continue to make a living as a result of Israeli occupation of Palestinian land. These desperate Palestinians are easy prey for the Israelis who are working with the help of the Israeli government to buy up land in the West Bank and make it permanently unavailable to Palestinians.

Some people think the Palestinians should be the only people in the world who are not allowed to defend themselves against being ethnically cleansed. I don't happen to be one of those people.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 04:25 PM

On what authority does The P.A.'s chief Islamic judge, Sheik Tayseer Rajab Tamimi act if the lands in question are in Israel? In what country has he credentials as a judge? There is more than enough blame for both sides but sharia law tramps on the rights of the Palestinians, women in particular, so is that what he tries to impose?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 04:23 PM

On the subject of Jews living in Palestine who are not married to Palestinians, there are many of them living there at any given time. I frequently see references to them, although I don't often bother to save the references. Here's an example of a Jewish American, Anna Baltzer, who lived among, and in solidarity with, the Palestinians in the West Bank for eight months. She has written a book about it. Here is her blog...

http://annainpalestine.blogspot.com/


This is her website...

http://www.annainthemiddleeast.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 04:16 PM

It just seems like whoever does the bad thing first is bad. The person who does the bad thing second is absolved of all blame. It sounds like the back seat of a car. "Mommy - He hit me FIRST!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: C. Ham
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 04:05 PM

If you understand carolcian logic you know that Israel is the root of all that is evil on this planet and that the Palestinians are sugar and spice and everything nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 04:03 PM

So a wrong does make a right?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 03:40 PM

Both sides would not be wrong if only one of the sides is using the law to commit ethnic cleansing, and the other side is using the law to prevent ethnic cleansing. In this case, Israel is actively committing ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their own land, and the Palestinians are trying to stop this practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 03:38 PM

So Israel is required to keep an old Mandate law and does not have the power to change it? That's nonsense.

___________________________


Israel's Supreme Court makes a lot of rulings that the rest of the government of Israel then either ignores or sabotages. I don't expect that Supreme Court ruling to ever have any effect on the facts on the ground, which is that property never passes from Jews to Palestinians in Israel or occupied Palestine. It always goes the other way. Here's another example...

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040308/bloom

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 03:32 PM

If BOTH sides have similar/identical laws wouldn't BOTH sides be right/wrong ?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 03:13 PM

Israel's Supreme Court ordered the sale of land to Arabs including Palestinians:
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2007/09/200852513132923309.html

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 03:00 PM

IF you are referring to the JNF lands, that is NOT an Israeli Law- it does come under the 1921 Mandate for Public lands ( So blame the Brits!) That affects 13% of the PUBLIC lands and has NO effect at all on private sales, or other institutional sales besides the property of the JNF.

http://www.adalah.org/eng/intl06/un-i6-jnf.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 02:55 PM

The land always goes from Palestinians to Jews. It never goes the other way. This is why the Palestinians don't want Palestinian land to be sold to Jews. If anyone can produce any examples in which land ownership went from Jews to Palestinians, I will withdraw my comment. I don't expect that to happen.

"Israel has used a complex legal and bureaucratic mechanism to take control of more than fifty percent of the land in the West Bank. This land was used mainly to establish settlements and create reserves of land for the future expansion of the settlements.

The principal tool used to take control of land is to declare it "state land." This process began in 1979, and is based on a manipulative implementation of the Ottoman Lands Law of 1858, which applied in the area at the time of occupation. Other methods employed by Israel to take control of land include seizure for military needs, declaration of land as "abandoned assets," and the expropriation of land for public needs. Each of these are based on a different legal foundation. In addition, Israel has assisted private citizens purchasing land on the "free market."

The process employed in taking control of land breaches the basic principles of due procedure and natural justice. In many cases, Palestinian residents were unaware that their land was registered in the name of the state, and by the time they discovered this fact, it was too late to appeal. The burden of proof always rests with the Palestinian claiming ownership of the land. Even if he meets this burden, the land may still be registered in the name of the state on the grounds that it was transferred to the settlement "in good faith."

Despite the diverse methods used to take control of land, all the parties involved - the Israeli government, the settlers and the Palestinians - have always perceived these methods as part of a mechanism intended to serve a single purpose: the establishment of civilian settlements in the territories. Accordingly, the precise method used to transfer the control of land from Palestinians to Israel is of secondary importance. Moreover, since this purpose is prohibited under international law, the methods used to secure it are also unlawful.

Israel uses the seized lands to benefit the settlements, while prohibiting the Palestinian public from using them in any way. This use is forbidden and illegal in itself, even if the process by which the lands were taken were fair and in accordance with international and Jordanian law. As the occupier in the Occupied Territories, Israel is not permitted to ignore the needs of an entire population and to use land intended for public needs solely to benefit the settlers.

The High Court of Justice has generally sanctioned the mechanism used to take control of land. In so doing, the Court has contributed to imbuing these procedures with a mask of legality. The Court initially accepted the state's argument that the settlements met urgent military needs, and allowed the state to seize private land for this purpose. When the state began to declare land "state land," the Court refused to intervene to prevent this process."

http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/200205_Land_Grab.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: C. Ham
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 02:50 PM

Privately owned land in Israel can be bought and sold by anyone to anyone. Jews, Christians, Muslims, Arabs, etc.

Perhaps CarolC is thinking about the Israeli law which does bar Arabs from buying state-owned land.

But it's not just Arabs who are barred from buying state-owned land. Jews, Christians, members of all other religions, whether or not they are Israeli citizens or from abroad, are also barred from buying state-owned land.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 02:43 PM

No, YOU claim there is a law. Show it to me.

Please provide some examples of Jews allowed to settle in Palestinian territories who are not married to Palestinian Moslims. You made the claim they would be welcome- so show me.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 02:34 PM

There certainly is a law. Otherwise, please provide some examples of Palestinians who have been allowed to buy property in Israel or Occupied Palestine from Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 02:29 PM

"The problem with selling property to Jews is that once Jews own it, it can never be sold to anyone who is not a Jew, according to Israeli law. "

False statement, as I have pointed out before. No such law.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 02:25 PM

The problem with selling property to Jews is that once Jews own it, it can never be sold to anyone who is not a Jew, according to Israeli law. This law is a part of the ethnic cleansing program that the government of Israel is practicing against the Palestinians. So it doesn't surprise me if the Palestinians take it very seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 01:44 PM

"The punishment also includes being ostracized by community and family."

Does this come before or after the execution?

Subject: BS: Death Penalty by Palestinian Authority
From: C. Ham
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 01:37 PM

P.A. judge: Selling property to Jews punishable by death

       JERUSALEM (JTA) -- Palestinians who sell their property to Jews are committing a crime punishable by the death penalty, the Palestinian Authority warned.

The warning about the long-standing fatwa, or religious decree, against selling property to Jews was issued Wednesday following reports that American Jewish businessmen had purchased several acres of land on the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem from its Palestinian owners.

The P.A.'s chief Islamic judge, Sheik Tayseer Rajab Tamimi, issued the warning, saying it also applies to real estate agents and landlords who rent to Jews. The punishment also includes being ostracized by community and family.

Tamimi reportedly said that the ban is in place to prevent Israeli officials from taking control of Arab land in Jerusalem.