BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 07:40 PM

Kevin, it's just that my point is as least as valid as yours--and very rarely acknowledged.   I Virtuosi di Mudcat are past masters at riffing on your point--in fact rarely a day passes that we don't hear another variation on your theme from one or another Mudcat savant.

But it is hardly ever acknowledged that there could possibly be any other sources of problems in the world than big business and Christianity.

One might even think many Mudcatters have tunnel vision--and can only see the above-cited causes of world difficulties.   They like simple solutions to complex questions, have a bit of an aversion to doing research----and have hit on a great all-purpose explanation for any negative development.

Or to quote Paul, I think it was: "just sees what he wants to see.."


There are examples on this very thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 01:19 PM

Indeed. The motives and abilities of the leaders are only one factor. Certain circumstances are too vast, complicated, poorly understood, sudden, etc., to allow for much efficiency, no matter who's in charge.

Obviously, things can always be done better, and malefactors should be thwarted, but bashing the usual suspects regardless gets tedious.

I'm doubt that any particular political or economic "system" (or anarchism, for that matter) will make the world any better, though obviously there are many that can make it even worse. Reform helps in one area while it may hinder in another. (Which means it may still do more good than evil in particular cases: about the best one can hope for.) That may be another law of history.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 11:40 AM

My point being that the responsibility for things going badly wrong in a poor country is likely to rest on both sets of people, local crooks of one sort and another and external predators of one sort and another.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 11:31 AM

"...nobody is arguing your point." So we are agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 10:46 AM

Kevin, nobody is arguing your point. Everybody knows that all the ills of the world can always be ascribed to either big business or Christianity--preferably both.   It must be true--after all we hear variations on this theme day in and day out here below the line, and Mudcatters are extremely educated and articulate people, so you know they wouldn't mislead you in anything.

My point, however, is hardly ever acknowledged on Mudcat--as I suspect you know.

Why I would hazard a guess that we will hear your point at least once more today. Wouldn't that be amazing?   Mine?--not likely.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 07:04 AM

An earthquake's epicentre is the point on the Earth's surface directly above the point deep in the crust where the movement occurred. To say that the epicentre was directly beneath Port au Prince is inaccurate on two counts, firstly in that the epicentre is not underground and secondly in that, in this case, the epicentre was actually several miles to the west of that city. That puts it even further away from the populous areas of the Dominican Republic, which is to the east of Haiti, and which did feel the shock but which was spared major damage. It was simply too far from the epicentre.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 05:41 AM

If they are on the same fault line they are due for the next one.

Geologically speaking it is imminent, which could mean any time in the next 1000 years.

Haiti had pressure building up and was released. That puts pressure somewhere else.

Imagine you are running a brush along a ribbed surface (do it slowly). Watch the bristles, they advance individually and not when you always expect. Same principle.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 05:35 AM

Equally, it eeds to bew recognised that local incompetence and corruption are not to blame for all the problems of the world. Some other factors and people have also been involved - including rich and powerful people in the US and other wealthy countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 10:59 PM

20 July, not 22.

(Petty, I know.)

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 07:15 PM

As long as all parties realize that big bad US business is not to blame for all problems in the world.   Some other factors--and people--have also been involved.

Realizing this would be a sea change for quite a few Mudcatters.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 06:44 PM

Quite.

As soon as I hit the Send button, I asked myself whether there had been any Nazis who once might have been decent and capable.

Probably not, unless they were young and naive and got out by, say, 1935. And if they stayed (to protect themselves and their families and perhaps to "work for change"), they undoubtedly never got   where they could do any good.

I don't believe any of the members of the July 22 plot against Hitler belonged to the Nazi Party (I could be wrong). Nor, I think, did the General who refused Hitler's order to burn Paris.

So my original post should have read "...*sometimes* a leavening...."

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 06:12 PM

Our governments reflect us; no more, no less.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 05:47 PM

What so many people overlook is that all governments, governmental agencies, political movements, etc., everywhere, are led by a combination of the ambitious, the crooked, the foolish, the greedy, the petty, the unimaginative, the incompetent (I could go on, but why bother?), with a leavening of decent, capable individuals, perhaps half of whom get one opportunity to do something truly constructive.

Before being overwhelmed by the rest.

This is a law of history. It's the nature of political groups, right, left, and in outer space. The alternative at this stage of civilization: complete Darwinian chaos, rather than the punctuated kind we have now.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 05:36 PM

Who has clean hands? Not just in Haiti itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 05:10 PM

There seems to be plenty of blame to go around for the--continuing--disastrous situation of Haiti.

Including Aristide, who as noted, does not seem to have clean hands.

Per Lucy Komisar, founder and member of the steering committee of the Tax Justice Network, an international NGO that opposes offshore tax evasion by corporations and the wealthy:

"Aristide and his associates looted government coffers, wrote checks to front companies for nonexistent purchases, padded invoices to get kickbacks from vendors, secretly owned companies that cheated Haiti or taxes, and laundered the money they stole through shell companies and secret bank accounts set up in the US and the offshore tax havens of Turks and Caicos and the British Virgin Islands."

"Aristide's corruption is documented by incorporation papers, copies of bank checks, bank transfer documents, invoices, company payment statements, and sworn testimony."

There seem to be no "good guys" in this whole sordid story. Despite Mudcatters' fondest wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 03:53 PM

Preval seems to have led Haiti reasonably.
Aristide has indicated that he is ready to return, but so far little support.

Preval has improved relations with the Dominican Republic, and the economy improved.
He has met with the Secretary of State, and relations with the U. S. seem stable, although in recent years Venezuela has provided more developmental aid.

Haiti still obtains more energy from burning charcoal than other sources, although the forests were destroyed by occupying countries, from the 1500s through the 19th C.
Its Caribbean mahogany (Swietenia mahagoni) was the wood of choice for English and American furniture makers in the 18th-19th C.; the wood now is rare and under protection (Central and South American mahogany is lower in quality but also is mostly under protection).

The amount of arable land has been decreasing as a result of poor practices and overuse; the population is too large.

Senegal has offered arable land to any who wish to return to Africa (BBC News).

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 03:19 PM

No stories are simple. But Aristide appears to have been the nearest thing to a democratically elected and competent president in Haiti within generations. Those involved in overthrowing him included people closely connected to the previous Duvalier regime.

The allegation about his endorsing necklacing is extremely questionable.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 01:18 PM

"Who deported Aristide?"

A simple question?


Aristide's hands don't seem particularly clean.

It seems he supported violence against his critics and endorsed "necklacing."

After his government lost a no-confidence vote, he tried to rule alone.   The army staged a coup. Under US and international pressure, the military regime backed down and US troops were deployed in Haiti. This allowed Aristide to return (1994) and complete his term of office.

In 2000 Aristide won again--in an election in which his party controlled the Provisional Election Commission and declared the official results when counting had hardly started, as well as ignoring the constitutional requirement for a run-off.

In 2004, after a violent revolution, Aristide was forced out of Haiti.

As usual, it's not a simple story.
.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 12:55 PM

How do we ensure decent government in small countries?

Paul, with respect, there's a wealth of assumptions in that question.

For a start, who's "we"? The West, the US, the UK? Europe? What right do we actually have to ensure any kind of government in any country other than our own?

And then there's the question of the word "decent"? Too often, the US, the UK and Europe assume that our way of life and government is the "right" one - the only one - the model to which all other nations must aspire. And it's this assumption which causes many problems.

We often consider that form of our Western democracy is the "best" way for a country to run itself, which ignores the ethnicity, custom and history of that country. I appreciate that the question may be, in part, rhetorical, and I would rephrase it as: How do we help another country, if requested, to create an appropriate government and infrastructure for that country?

It saddens me to read, for example, that a Major Power has installed a puppet regime to ensure stability in a third-world country. That "stability" is almost certainly for the convenience of the Major Power than the country itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 12:22 PM

Ebbie, read "The Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein and the "Economic Hit Man" by john Perkins and you'll get the message about Haiti.

Who deported Aristede?

Even now, some see this calamity as an "opportunity".

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Charmion
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 11:23 AM

According to Wikipedia, the Domincan Republic had a doozie of an earthquake in 1946. Clocking in at 8 on the Richter scale, it flattened just about everything in Samaná Province and caused a tsunami that struck all along the north coast of the island and killed some 1700 people.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 10:29 AM

"...isn't at all interested in decent government..."

It would be nice if some of the ideological warriors here would start thinking.

In fact, in Haiti the US. for instance, is interested in decent government--if for no other reason that if Haiti were more prosperous, the problem of illegal Haitian immigration to the US would go way down.

As I've said elsewhere, no wonder folkies enjoy a wonderful reputation for fuzzy thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 10:19 AM

"extermination of Haiti's pigs"   8:16 PM 16 Jan 2009

I wonder how many credulous Mudcatters will swallow this link as "the answer" on this question.

As usual there is another side.

First start with the author of the linked article:   Mr. Aristide.   A totally objective source, of course.   Or maybe not.

Second:   African swine fever in Haiti was a fact.   Haiti's government itself "destroyed all swine with 15 kilometers of both sides of the border. No compensation was paid to any Haitian farmer for his lost pigs in this early phase." ...." " By December 1978 30,000 swine had died in the initial outbreaks of the disease in Haiti.   Reports were that the people were terrified. Pigs were found floating in rivers. The deaths were rapid, nothing like people had seen before." (Philip Gaertner).   

"The history of development programs in Haiti had always been one of corruption and failure, not success.....This was a project that no one wanted to undertake."

"The first two shipments (of replacement pigs) arrived from the Canadian lowest bidder in very poor condition, possessing disease and deformities. After that...only US hogs were purchased."


There's a lot more.   Don't know how much interest there is in this topic.   But it's remarkably easy for Mudcatters, it seems, to find US big business is the culprit, no matter what the problem.

A bit more research--and it's not hard--would show somebody not just interested in ideological propaganda that the answers are often complex.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 10:16 AM

Ah, yes, but who was *behind* the earthquake?

(Irony intended.)

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 09:55 AM

The shaking was most intense right in and around Port-au-Prince.

USGS intensity map is here:
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/shakemap/global/shake/2010rja6/#Decorated

Intensity depends upon the magnitude (total energy release), focal mechanism (style and direction of rupture), local soil and rock conditions, and conditions along the path between source and any given point.

All of these conspired to slam Port-au-Prince.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 08:46 AM

I had to do a quick search to try to find out what Robber-stun and Dumball said, but came up with a site (not familiar, but looking fairly clean) with side-by-side video clips of the two bits of infamy, and a poll where you can "vote for which is stupidest." I passed on voting as it's a no-contest no-choice battle of equals so I don't think it matters much.

The first video is a short clip directly from the recent 700 Club broadcast. The second is a longer news clip, primarily with Rep Barabar Lee who chairs the Black Caucus in Congress, and includes only a very brief extract from Dumball's rant about midway through more general comments on the disaster.

I did find an apparently complee text transcript of Dumball's broadcast shortly after I heard about it; but couldn't stomach saving it. The same search now finds that transcript has been pushed into oblivion by Google's "sorting by popularity," and I now find only "apologist blogs" in which the original rant is rearranged, interspersed with disconnected "excuses" and out of context and unrelated "quotes" and accusations against Obama. The easily accessible "transcripts" DO NOT NOW give the full text of "what he said" as it appeared immediately after the rant.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 06:17 AM

How do we ensure decent government in small countries?

Haven't you noticed that the west (including the US) isn't at all interested in decent government- it wants convenient government.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Neil D
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 03:00 AM

This earthquake was relatively shallow, 6 miles deep (the Bay area quake in '89 was 11). The closer to the surface a quake occurs, the more locallized the impact, and the more intense at the epicenter. This one was right underneath Port-au-Prince.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 08:16 PM

And the US smashing the Haitian peasant economy to make money for its own agribiz isn't corruption?

The extermination of Haiti's pigs

That wasn't a local dictator's idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 07:24 PM

I kinda like the "deal with the devil" story.... I mean, the way that Pat Robertson has it that they all voted to make the deal to get the French out... Personally, I would have demanded a recount... I wonder if they used touch screen votin' machines and if Diebold was involved...

Sorry...

I'm not makin' funny here... I am disgusted with Pat Robertson... I think he should be taken to Haiti and left to fend for himself with the Haitians... He sucks... Period...

BillD is right... The island is big... The fault line doesn't run under the entire island... But that is science and the Pat Robertson's don't believe in science, unless they get sick, of course... Then they can't get enough science...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 07:03 PM

"... but why? Does no one have a sense of seemliness, not to mention conscience?"

How do we ensure decent government in small countries? If we directly interfere, we get accused of one thing- if we don't, we are accused of another. How many small countries with bad governments do we get involved in?

Each new Haitian regime claims THEY will be honest and reasonable, but it seems almost as if no one CAN govern there without dealing with the forces of corruption. Look at Afghanistan.

When we offer support to an 'elected' government, we try every means short of putting Marines in the presidential palace, but the forces at work are like big insurance companies here....they just maneuver to keep their influence in the same old ways.

It is all very easy to point the finger, but show me a truly workable solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 06:48 PM

I agree, Kevin, but why? Does no one have a sense of seemliness, not to mention conscience?

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Penny S.
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 06:46 PM

Rush Limbagh has now joined the vile chorus demanding that no money is sent to help. Not sure why.

If Haiti entered a pact with the devil in fighting for independence from France, what did the US do when it rebelled against its anointed king? France was ruled by an irreligious revolution and a jumped up corporal at the time it did.

The history is unbelievable enough. Why the hell should exslaves have to compensate their abductors?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 05:21 PM

I don't understand why we - the western world - allow this situation to continue Not a question of allowing it to continuee, rather of ensuring that it did.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 04:45 PM

Dictators, one after another, have made Haiti an all but impossible entity. I don't understand why we - the western world - allow this situation to continue - and this was L O N G before the current catastrophe. Papa Doc was the first dictator I was aware of but it has only gotten worse.

There are some Haitians in Juneau; I know one of them but I don't know her story. Today I feel sick for her.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 04:38 PM

Thanks, Will -- that article and a related article on Haitian history at The Guardian, are informatative and well-written.

I've been interested in Haiti since reading Richard Halliburton's account of the slave revolution when I was about 8 and I have friends from the Dominican Republic.

I don't think I really understood before reading the above articles the stark contrast between the two countries especially the almost complete deforestation of Haiti. And I didn't know that Haiti had to pay reparations to France from 1825 UNTIL 1947 in order to be recognized. Haiti had to borrow hugely from the US, German & French banks to do this. By 1900, Haiti was paying 80% of its national budget on loan repayments. Remember, too, that Haiti was occupied by the US for about 20 years (ending in the 1930s) because the US was afraid Haiti would default on its massive debts. Then the Great Depression destroyed Haiti's exports and more revolution and dictatorships destroyed any chance Haiti ever had of building a decent economy.

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 02:38 PM

As I suggested on another thread, maybe he should be sent over to Haiti---and dropped from a great height. Too bad it doesn't seem very legal to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 02:37 PM

Pat Robertson is living proof that assholes can talk.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 02:36 PM

Dominica, the island in the Lesser Antilles (a Commonwealth nation), has nothing to do with the Dominican Republic on Hispaniola.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 02:29 PM

It's true, Ebbie.   Pat Robertson is one who really tests your faith in freedom of speech.

If he could be stifled legally, it would be progress--including--or maybe especially-- for Christians.

What he says comes mighty close to yelling "Fire" in a crowded theatre.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 01:27 PM

I heard it said on radio, that Haiti is on the softer ground, while Dominica, is on rocky ground. Apparently the earthquake affected the softer ground most

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 12:52 PM

Good question- NPR News set up a page for updating news and included a map from Google Earth or Maps that lets you poke around and look at the island. It is a really remarkable split, these two nations on Hispanola.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 12:33 PM

Ah, good, I thought it was odd.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 12:18 PM

There was an interesting article in yesterday's Guardian (UK) about the island of Hispaniola and its historical, geographical and cultural differences. It doesn't specifically mention quake history, but does explain some climatological differences between the two countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 12:14 PM

Mainly because Hispaniola is a fairly large island. Its area is almost 30,000 sq. miles (77,000 sq. km). That's about 20% bigger than West Virginia. Would you be surprised if a major earthquake in one part of WV didn't affect the entire state?

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 12:12 PM

The short answer is that the fault lies just under the west end of the island. The long answer is that they did 'feel' it a bit in the Dominican Republic, and damage was noticed almost to the border.
(Some journalists made a 10 hour drive from the Dominican Republic to Port Au Prince, and saw damaged buildings soon after crossing the border.)

Subject: RE: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 11:29 AM

Because they didn't make a pact with the devil?

That is a bitter joke. According to Pat Robertson that is why Haiti is so desperately poor.

Subject: BS: Why no earthquake in Dominican Rep?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 11:06 AM

Haiti is half of an island, called Hispaniola, and the other half is the Dominican Republic - how come they didn't get earthquoken?