BS: Labeling People when did this start

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: MMario
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:54 AM

I do suspect that labelling of groups and individuals happened as soon as language developed to do it with

Given human nature, I'm pretty sure it occurred prior to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: olddude
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:38 AM

Dear Steve
Yes indeed, I am as far away from your vision of Christian as one can get. I also now have a disdain for most organized churches today including my own. My belief in God is very personal and is based on faith not politics. I am a firm believer that Thomas Jefferson got it right .. Now if that makes me a bad Christian in your eyes ... I celebrate that ... but again do not send me emails railing against others who disagree with you. To quote Thomas Jefferson:

They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:09 AM

Dan, I try to avoid labels and stick to issues. However there are movement afoot which characterize negative aspects of society.

I think that if we could get beyond the labels and get to the issues, this would be a wholesome thing. The problem is that there are certain groups who label themselves
and do damage. If we could get past that and get to the issues, I am in favor of that.

Labeling people is a convenient way to dismiss the arguments or discussions about issues. Right now, the Pee Party is labeling themselves in an attempt to railroad the discussion about issues in their favor. This is true with so many ersatz groups who brand themselves.

You are ultimately correct however in stating that these labels are counter-productive and they have been used as propaganda tools, pro and con for decades. I have been guilty of using them and I realize in so doing I am not really fostering legitimate rational discussion of issues. I'm trying to do better. I think we are addicted to labels because it's an easy out and keeps us from evaluation and analysis on a rational level.

I still think that we have a difficulty when groups label themselves and try to enforce those labels on others.

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 09:25 AM

"I hate a song that makes you think that you are not any good. I hate a song that makes you think that you are just born to lose. Bound to lose. No good to nobody. No good for nothing. Because you are too old or too young or too fat or too slim too ugly or too this or too that. Songs that run you down or poke fun at you on account of your bad luck or hard traveling.

I am out to fight those songs to my very last breath of air and my last drop of blood. I am out to sing songs that will prove to you that this is your world and that if it has hit you pretty hard and knocked you for a dozen loops, no matter what color, what size you are, how you are built.

I am out to sing the songs that make you take pride in yourself and in your work." Woody Guthrie

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Darowyn
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 04:19 AM

The inhabitants of London are called Cockneys.
Cocken Ee = a cockerels egg, hence, something utterly useless.
I do suspect that labelling of groups and individuals happened as soon as language developed to do it with.
It's a way to avoid thinking.
So if you suggest that there are too many immigrants.
I call you a fascist, and that means I don't have to think about the actual numbers, origins, costs and benefits of immigration.
By labelling you, I've demoted you to a category of people whom I can ignore, or, if it comes to it, fight a war against.
No need for thinking at all.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 11:11 PM

How about "clodhopper", "hayseed", "nester", and "shitkicker"?

How about "slicker", "dude", "greenie", and "pilgrim"?

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 11:11 PM

Rap, I'm sure that you being one of those seditious commie loving librarians the FBI approved people want to talk to you all the time!

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:56 PM

Speaking of labels, why do city folks like to label rural folks
"hillbillies" or "hicks"? I've always wondered about the origin of
those terms. I find them to be very offensive because I live in a rural
area. The only terms for city people I've heard of are "city slickers"
and "yuppies", and those are used in pop culture. I never heard anybody
in my area use those terms. But in the closest cities to me, I hear
"hillbilly", "redneck", and "hick" all of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:01 PM

I avoid talking to people with FBI approval label.

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Amergin
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:25 PM

I only talk to people who are stamped with the FDA approved label.....

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:23 PM

It was like coming home to be a part of F.L.

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:47 PM

We'll keep ya, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:45 PM

Art, I'd say you were a folkin' legacy, yup.

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Art Thieme
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:59 PM

The only label that truly was accurate for me was:

FOLK LEGACY!!!

Thanks to Sandy and Caroline Paton for having me join them in their great adventure!

Love,

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 May 10 - 09:43 PM

Sorry, kat. I got the wrong city -- I meant Des Moines. But here's what Wikipedia says:

A controversial recent hypothesis uses a study of Miami-Illinois tribal names concludes the word Moingona, comes from the word mooyiinkweena, a derogatory name which translates roughly to "the excrement-faces." The name was seemingly given to Marquette and Joliet by a tribal leader to dissuade them from doing business with a neighboring tribe. However, the creator of this etymology admits it is improbable ("strange" as he puts it). This alternative scenario is rejected by the historian Jim Fay, who feels that the interpretation of "Moingona" as "excrement face" is refuted by a large body of first-hand accounts and detailed ethnolinguistic research:

"         These amusing reconstructions and interpretations are more newsworthy, more web popular, and more 'way cool' than the soundly warranted historical evidence, and so, over time, the facts get lost in the shuffle. That seems to be what has happened or is happening to "Moingona." There is no historical record that "shit-faced" was ever expressed or implied in the vernacular usage of the term. There is very substantial evidence to the contrary by probably the most knowledgeable Algonquian linguists who ever lived. Missionaries who understood the language repeatedly used the term, not as a dirty metaphor or ugly insult, but as a very respectful name used in very cordial interactions with the people to whom it referred.

I do hope my point is made, however: as long as it's "us vs. them" labels will be used.

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Janie
Date: 31 May 10 - 07:05 PM

Dan, the answer to your question is that it probably began before the emergence of homo sapiens.

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Janie
Date: 31 May 10 - 06:59 PM

Actually, the problem is not with labeling or with generalizing, per se.

There are actually two problems.

Problem 1a.    When one treats a valid generalization as a "rule" so to speak, one tends to view all the data that doesn't fit the generalization as a remarkable exception. Unless one is dealing with something that has only a very limited number of attributes (say one to three attributes), however, the generalization is equivalent to an idealized representation and no one member of the class of whatever it is that is being generalized about is likely to exhibit all of the attributes. This means that variance from the generalization is the rule most of the time. People tend to not recognize this. (That last statement is a generalization, and the use of the word "tend" signifies I am aware it is a generalization.)

Problem 1b. Failure to recognize assumptions and beliefs for what they are in one's own thinking processes. There is no inherent problem with making assumptions or having beliefs. The problem in thinking is the failure to recognize them as such - to mistake them for truth or fact.

Problem 2. Value judgement. This is related to 1b. above, but separate from. Value judgements are based on assumptions and beliefs, but not all assumptions or beliefs are value judgements.

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: olddude
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:11 PM

Like the Dr. Seuss characters with the "stars on Thar's"

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: mauvepink
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:10 PM

"I suppose one could say that labeling and stereotyping are the result of too much of a good thing"

... or the results of not using the intelligence evolution gave us to be able to tell the two apart without prejudice and/or discriminations?

Where there is a survival/reproductive value to a behaviour one can almost understand it BUT when one invokes the supposedly greater intelligence and sociality of Homo sapiens it then starts breaking down to us truly being no better than other animals. To be able to go beyond the labelling and sterotyping - to identify the individual merits in a person - maybe is true intelligence?

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Janie
Date: 31 May 10 - 04:59 PM

Don has the closest explanation yet.   The way the human brain (and that of at least some other primates) is able to manage the vast amount of information it stores by categorizing. Categorizing makes it possible to generalize, which is useful. All this is well and good. Unfortunately, this also can result in labeling and stereotyping. I suppose one could say that labeling and stereotyping are the result of too much of a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 May 10 - 04:26 PM

I think the whole thing started back when a group of our hairy ancestors ran into a troupe of baboons or chimpanzees. Each group noted certain physical differences in the other, and they (we) all started chattering and screeching aggressively at each other.

I've also heard it said that using an epithet (label) on someone is our reptile brain directing us to angrily hurl a spear. Instead, we call the person who offends our sensibilities a "redneck" or a "socialist" or a "fascist" or a "liberal"—or that most dreaded of all such labels, a "fascist liberal."

(In the field of political science, what does "fascist liberal" mean? Isn't that an oxymoron? It's certainly some kind of moron. . . .)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: peregrina
Date: 31 May 10 - 03:52 PM

Labelling other groups, labelling groups as others:

The tribal thing: us versus them.

Almost never brings peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: mauvepink
Date: 31 May 10 - 03:45 PM

I would go as far as to say that when we label ourselves we may be most comfortable with it. When someone else labels us, and it does not fit how we see ourselves, then the trouble starts. When someone else takes our labels and abuses us with them, the true sorrow is not far behind.

Also, human labels can be very fluid, changeable things, that are strictly time limited in some instances. When those changes are not seen by either the person 'wearing the label', or whoever is reading it, further complications arise.

How we label ourselves may well drive how others label us to. Much depends on their own relationship with us or the group we belonf to.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 03:30 PM

"There's no difference in the process-it's lazy thinking, an avoidance of effort, and an unwillingness to look straight."

I disagree, I think most of us exist within a gramework whefre we need to feel we understand ourselves and each other. "Outsiders" included so to speak, and even more importantly so. Anyone who works with people with mental illness will tell you that their diagnosis, can mean a lot to them. Having a collective objective term with which to understand their otherwise subjective solo experience.

Identity matters, language offers us that. It's not merely "laziness" afforded the intellectual theorist.

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 May 10 - 03:26 PM

...and an unwillingness to look straight.

As some of my gay friends would say, Amos, "forward" never "straight!":-)

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: olddude
Date: 31 May 10 - 03:23 PM

Amos
Perfect ... Lazy thinking ... I love that line cause that is just what it is you are so right !!

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Amos
Date: 31 May 10 - 03:19 PM

There's no difference in the process-it's lazy thinking, an avoidance of effort, and an unwillingness to look straight. Some labels are more hateful than others, but they're all a compromise. Obviously we need them to communicate with, but mixing them up a substitute for thought and looking is pretty lethal.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: olddude
Date: 31 May 10 - 03:04 PM

and what is the difference between this and the racial labels we fight so hard to eliminate ..?   All us Irish are drunks, or blacks lazy yada yada ...seems to be the same hate only now it is politics

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: olddude
Date: 31 May 10 - 03:02 PM

Its not the label that is important here, it is the hate that is rendered because of this narrow minded view of people.   People are both depending on the issue up for vote ... like Jefferson it dawns on me that it makes no sense ...

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 02:56 PM

Heh, so label me: hippy, libertarian, drop-out.. so-on, and so what? It doesn't scare me that someone might have issue with my life choices. That's their problem, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: kendall
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:29 PM

Right on, Dan.

Sinsull...he accused me of rationalizing...I would take that as a compliment.

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Bobert
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:20 PM

Yeah, labels are fir the most part artifical... For the life of me I can't understand them... Liberal??? Conservative??? Neither really make any sense what so ever... They have lost whatever meaning they once had...

I mean, you'd think that someone who defines themself as a "fiscal conservative" would vote for Democrtas for the simple fact, going back to Jimmy Carter, the Dems have reduced deficts when they are in power... But then the conservative say that the Dems are tax and spend liberals???

All gets very confusing...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Amos
Date: 31 May 10 - 12:26 PM

Dan:

When did humans start separating into Uses and Thems? Near the dawn of language. It's an inherent fallacy of language, I guess, to try to shift reality by calling it inaccurately. Altering the ground truth of something by getting people to agree to call it something else is an ages-old trick.

It surely goes back before the days of the ancient Greeks.

My belief is that at the bottom it is born from an unwillingness to look squarely at what is there in front of you, and a desire to avoid the effort of seeing clearly. Semantic substitutes, using maps instead of territory, is the bane of human existence.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 May 10 - 12:24 PM

Did anyone ever get the labels from those labelmakers to stick? Mine always flew off when I least expected it. Another piece of Popeil crap.
I am so cranky. Damn foot!

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 12:11 PM

"THAT kind of music? ;-)"

MP, I quite simply MUST hear a folkie version of the Beastie Boys classic now! Preferably with all the most vilified folkie instruments at once ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: mauvepink
Date: 31 May 10 - 12:06 PM

OMG! You are not one of those PARTAY people are you play THAT kind of music? ;-)

What label do you record it on? lol

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 12:03 PM

Political parties suck. The mob is the untruth!
Let's start a new party... called the PARTAY party. Just good music, food, drink and friends. Yeah!

ROFLtastic!

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:51 AM

Dan - labeling people started when they finally discovered an adhesive that would stick to human skin.

Prior to this, stitching and stapling labels on people was tried - unsuccessfully, fortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:18 AM

Hey SINS - a prophet is not recognised in his/her own country.

Political parties suck. The mob is the untruth!

Let's start a new party... called the PARTAY party. Just good music, food, drink and friends. Yeah!

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: catspaw49
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:17 AM

After a great deal of research on the subject, I think the labeling phenomena happened on a Christmas in the 50's when we all saw the value of doing so and had the means at hand to do so.

Always happy to help. Next question???

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:10 AM

Didja also point out to him that Christ was a Jew from a family of Jews?

With "friends" like that, who needs...........oh, the hell with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:08 AM

Rapaire, where did you learn that about "dubuque" since it was named after the Frenchman who first explored the region? or, were you being facetious?

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:04 AM

Rapaire,
Just last week a co-worker told me that the Jews killed Christ. When I pointed out that the Romans did it he claimed that the Jews wanted it done so the Romans did it. When I also pointed out that Christ came with the purpose of dying for our sins and so it didn't matter who killed him, he as god would have it done, he accused me of rationalizing.
Fortunately we are friends or it could have gotten very ugly.

Washingtom operates on sound bites and labels. I am so sick of it I actually am considering cancelling my party membership. Both parties are filled with hypocrites more concerned with their own power base than you or me - the people they supposedly represent.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: mauvepink
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:59 AM

Virginia Tam wrote "Compromise is not weakness. It shows strength and trust. Maybe naive.... ""

Not at all. It's so VERY true and probably the only true hope we have as a species. Without compromise all can be lost very fast and it becomes expensive too. Symbiotic relationships in nature are often the strongest. Any animal/plant that tries to go too far, too fast. too selfishly, will always be brought back in toward the middle line of evolution by nature (or becomes extinct). Mankind has not learned that yet even though they see it all the time.

Mediocrity is rapidy disappearing and yet, when you lok at all struggles, it is that which brings about answers that are sustainable in the world.

"Compromise is not weakness. It shows strength and trust" should become the battlecry of survival for us!

:-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:55 AM

I've read recently that when the French were exploring the length of the Mississippi they asked the Indians living on what is now the Dubuque River what the name of the people upstream was. The reply, rendered as "dubuque" actually means "shit faces."

Jews were called "Christ killers" in the Middle Ages, Shakespeare uses the word "frogs" to mean the French in his plays, and I suspect that the Celts branded the Roman soldiers in the same way that US soldiers in 'Nam and Korea called the enemy* "gooks." In the UK it was an insult in some areas during the 18th C. to call someone a Tory; earlier there were the "Roundheads" and later in Ireland the "croppies".

Heck, ever the sports teams at the University of Notre Dame were called "Fighting Irish" -- and it wasn't a compliment at the time.






*Enemy: someone who is trying like heck to do you grievous bodily harm.

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:41 AM

Distracted by Rig's belief that immigration contributes to the population problem.

It is my understanding that upward mobility brought about by immigration from third world to industrialised nation decreases the birthrate those families would have experienced had they stayed in third world countries.

Or are you only worried about population issues precisely where you live and not globally?

Re Olddude's original post -

I am sure most of us do not buy the whole Republican/Conservative or Democratic/Labour package. We agree (from a personal perspective) more with one or the other.
But the ultimate desire of each individual is the same, a better community, country, world. We simply disagree about how to attain it. I don't think my right leaning friends are selfish slavering monsters. They are generous, intelligent kind people. I don't believe they think ill of me, simply because I disagree with them on some issues.

If we keep foremost the thought that it is a person we are discussing with and not merely an ideology maybe we can come to agreements about some things.
I wish the political machines could do that. Compromise is not weakness. It shows strength and trust. Maybe naive.... but I am still hopeful that way and I hope that doesn't change.

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: mauvepink
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:18 AM

I suspect it will go all the way back to when mankind first had language. One of the definitions is "a brief descriptive phrase or term given to a person, group, school of thought, etc". Or at least to when differences in people started getting noticed. As people are all so very different we see labels applied at a very small difference in personal circles but when you apply it to groups the same thing is happening.

It's certainly not new and, sadly, I doubt it will go away for some time to come. Some labels are useful though. It's when they get used and a stereotype is attached the damage really starts and can become offensive. Labelling and judging people on those labels can be a very rocky path to ruin.

I also think that the fact we are (supposedly) social animals that mixed loyalties play a part. So many people feel the need to belong to something but then forget they are themselves individulas. That it is okay to hold an opinion that is not like the next person's in your group without being disloyal to that group. In some instances, obviously, it would be impossible to stay with a given group if you held an opposing opinion to that group's core system, so your choice would be to go along with them and stay or leave and feel isloated.

The 'group drive', herd instinct/mentality, is very strong in lots of people. It is part of who they are. Trying to find a balance between your own internal belief/value system and remaining friends with others within your group can be hard. Lots manage to run with the hares and hunt with hounds but there comes a time one may need to make a stand. Loyalty can be a strong driving force within sociality.

Of course, many of us label ourselves too. We give descriptions of what we like, what we are into, what we believe in, etc., etc.. It's really hard to get rid of labels completely. They can be useful tools or extremely destructive.

It's not the labels that are bad. It's how we choose to utilise and allow them to affect us within social situations individually and as a group. IMHO!

Labels

label your T-shirt label your shoes
label your breakfast label your tins
label the mousse that you put in your hair
label your khaki utility wear
label your inside your outside
your back and your front
smile to my face but think I'm the runt
of a litter best left unbred and unseen
label the label, but don't label me

Lisa Matthews


Don't Label Me!

Don't Judge Me

Just abouts sums it up

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: treewind
Date: 31 May 10 - 09:51 AM

"I agree, olddude, it is maddening. I agree with the liberals on abortion and with the conservatives on immigration--both issues for the same reason--over population."
Some insight into this phomomenon here: (a friend's blog) www.mitra.biz/blog/archives/2004/08/

"The work of Paul Ray's Political Compass (PDF)
is a useful reminder at this time of the election, that when you analyze the US public's views on different issues and that most people are essentially forced to choose between two parties, neither of which represent their views on most issues."

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 May 10 - 09:42 AM

Started with Mitchell Palmer then an assist from Tailgunner Joe most recently championed by Karl Rove & The Bushites.

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 May 10 - 09:37 AM

I agree, olddude, it is maddening. I agree with the liberals on abortion and with the conservatives on immigration--both issues for the same reason--over population.

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: olddude
Date: 31 May 10 - 09:32 AM

and if you think about it, even when we try to label anything, even music it brings out the worst in people ... Like "what is folk music"

Subject: RE: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: olddude
Date: 31 May 10 - 09:25 AM

If one today were to look at Thomas Jefferson and his writing as I have done, Half of what he says would fall under this he is a "bla bla bla Liberal so and so" ... Then take a look at what he says on other issues .. he would be today this "Conservative Right wing bla bla bla"

why because it depended on the issue at hand ... but we try to paint people into a little box to control their vote today ..

very sad I think

Subject: BS: Labeling People when did this start
From: olddude
Date: 31 May 10 - 09:17 AM

I get so sick of labels, when in this great country did this stuff start. I got a message from a republican friend ... this is my response ... I wish this whole business would stop with the parties .And in the 56 years I have been alive this seems to be a new trend, when did it all start anyway? Anyone know?
.

Steve,
if you wish to label people don't do it to me. People are far more
complex to be slandered or place in little Ultra right wing boxes or
left wing boxes ... "humanist, liberal elites , secular facists... ya da ya da ..

That is a page out of history that doesn't deserve my time. When
any party, organization or people try to box others it is to demonize
them and that is only done to take away their rights, their rights to
free speech or to vote as they choose. In American if the majority want
something passed, if they majority want someone elected they will be
elected by due process much to the chagrin of the others. But I am
smart enough to know that every person I have met is both left
and right depending on the issue ... It is the organizations that try to paint
them into a box to steal away their free thought ... me I have none of
it. I vote on records. When I attend church, mine, or protestant if a
priest, minister, preacher or anyone start on politics when I am in
church I politely get up and leave for I am there for God not to hear
someone try to rant because others out there vote as they see just ...
Like wise I will vote along an organization line only if the record
proves they are right ... but that is a decision I do alone without
anyone's involvement ... free speech free thought made this country.
You can fall into categories and labels that demonize people
if you like, just not around me ...

Dan