BS: Bobbing heads when walking

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: Crowhugger
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 02:50 PM

JiK, isn't that why frogs swim, in case they do forget where the next lily pad is?
;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: Ed T
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 09:55 AM

Pigeon stuff below:


odd facts about pigeons

pigion vision, beware below

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 10:20 PM

Based on pigeon anatomy, the bobbing head during walking quite likely is just a matter of keeping balance.

Suggestions that it relates to vision - as made here - don't appear to be well founded, although other head motions may be associated with vision. The head-bob while walking is consistent with control of center of gravity alone.

It might be of interest to pose the alternative question:

          Why do frogs jump?

Most animals have small involunary motions of the eyeball, called saccadic motion, that cause the eyeball to change position fairly rapidly even when staring fixedly at a single point. When an image is imposed on the retina, the strength of the neural signal "fades" fairly rapidly, and moving the eye moves the image to a new set of neurons to keep the image "fresh."

It is reported that a frog has no capability for saccadic motion of the eye, so the image can be kept refreshed only if the frog moves - or if some part of the image moves.

The claim is that the only way a frog can see stationary or slow moving parts of the surrounding scene is to move - i.e. jump. It also means that while the frog sits still, the stationary scene fades out of view, and the only thing the frog can see is the bug that flies through its field of view. This makes for incredible accuracy in catching the bug, but the frog has to remember where the next lily pad was if he wants to jump to a different one, since he (probably) can't see the pad until he jumps.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: gnu
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 08:52 PM

"as are all birds..."

Oh, gnu, you musta been into...

Please add , "... except birds of prey."

Sorry.

However, I assume youse knew that anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 08:44 PM

No, Roger McGuinn is a papal pretender......or maybe da' Pope wanna' be McGuinn? Crazy-ass Catholics...........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: Slag
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 08:43 PM

I hope they don't stage a "coo"!

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 08:39 PM

The current Archbishop of New York is Edward Michael Egan, who used to be Archbishop of Milwaukee. I heard a Milwaukee priest describe the way Eagan walks in processions, "with his head boobing up and down - it looks like he wants to be Pope."
So, that's it....those pigeons are papal pretenders.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: Slag
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 08:26 PM

Ok, checked out the Wiki-Quicki. They are described as Near-passerine, ie closely related to the passerines or perching bird. Most often they are ground feeders. I'm sure most birds, except maybe the swift and other bug-catchers would rather not fly if they don't have to. BUT! Pigeons ARE BUILT for SPEED. I have already metioned the powerful breast muscles and the fact that the legs are set back. But, it turns out that their legs are set farther back than most other birds. Form follows function and the function of legs set far back is to reduce drag in flight. Again, these birds are built for flight and speed. The co-incidence that they are related to the late, great Dodo and that the Dodo was flightless is just a matter of time and chance. Like other South Seas birds, most notably the Kiwi, it found itself on an island with no predators in its niche. It didn't need to fly or migrate to survive so it lost that unneccessary function. Point here is that ALL birds would probably perfer to be flightless. Quail, chickens and turkeys are much farther down this path than pigeons. These gallinaceous birds have even more powerful breast muscles than those of the columbidae(dove, pigeons) order but their legs are closer to their centers of gravity which is to say they stand more erect. As form does follow function, this is because they spend more time on the ground. They have short stubby wings, stiff feathers that come to a point. They are powerful fliers for short distances and long glides, natures little dragsters!

The pigeons wings are long and pointed and flexible which is another way to say they are distance fliers. If a ground predator spooked them, they are not going to see them again for a long time. Narrow tapered wings which come to a point are nature's design for long swift flight and the flexibility is for highspeed manuevering: eluding the pigeon hawks. These are nature's Indy cars! It's why people raise "racing" pigeons.

The head bob is peculiar to all members of this order. And like a good researcher I have just now read the artcile in queston!and pretty much justified my pointifications ( I did study orinthology a little in my youth under the tutelage of the late Edward Butts, Head Naturalist at the Grand Tetons National Park, ret.). (OK, no T&A jokes please)!

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: Joe_F
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:43 PM

I have wondered about this for a long time myself. My first idea was that their visual systems were not equipped to process moving scenes, so they moved their heads backward at the same (relative) speed as their bodies moved forward, and then snapped forward, giving themselves a series of still views. I have never been able to observe them carefully enough to check whether their heads are in fact stationary during the rearward part of the cycle.

Another whimsical thought was that maybe their pecking muscles need the exercise to keep in shape.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 06:20 PM

gnu's right - pigeons much prefer to walk if they aren't compelled to fly. They'd like to be flightless birds, but the world won't let them.

The Dodo was a kind of pigeon, which got its wishes on an island without predators, and strutted around getting fatter and fatter with its feet on the ground - until the sailors turned up.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: Slag
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 06:18 PM

You might have a point there gnu, especially when it comes to city bird but pigeons are among the fastest fliers in the bird world. They are able to elude the swiftest predators except for the goshawk who seems adapted to the pigeons-for-lunch program. Or is it the Pergrin falcon? I can never remember which. Both are incredibly fast birds.

The pigeon is ungainly in stride because of its huge breast muscles far to the front and legs far to the rear. The bobble wobble walk is a result of this. They ARE ground feeder and this type of head movements are a common thread with other bird such as those of the gallinaceous variety (chickens, pheasant, turkeys, etc.). It seems like they stretch their head forward to the point where the body will catch up and then they repeat the pattern. Ground feeders are natural prey because of their constant exposure to ground based predators. Their peripheral vision covers all that is behind them but not all to the front which resluts in their cocking the head to one side to locate food. Re-cocking the head helps them triangulate on the morsel. They make a snake-like strike and snap off the bit of grub or grain at-beak, so to speak. The same striking movement serves well when establishing the pecking order. My Dad called that bottom-rung bird on the farm the "Peck Bird". You don't want to be the peck bird!

Dove are also in this family (passerine, I believe) and they also exhibit the head bob and they too are very fast fliers. I hunted the same in my youth and that is where I learned about leading the moving target. Unless they were coming straight at you or away you would never hit them by putting the sights dead on them. In WWII the Navy looked for gunners that had open field bird hunting experience as it served them well when manning the triple A batteries.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 05:26 PM

One might surmise that pigeons are all trying to be Roger McGuinn although the likelihood of the reverse is more than likely the truth. I mean, hell, I've always thought McGuinn was a pigeon......or a jackass.......well, one or the other.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 05:20 PM

One explanation I've seen: pigeons can't process moving visual fields very well. So they keep their heads still relative to the ground while walking, then jerk them forward as fast as possible so they catch up with the rest of the pigeon.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: gnu
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 05:04 PM

leeneia.. "Walking is not a pigeon's preferred method of transport. Flying is."

Wrong. They are a ground bird, as are all birds (water counts too). If they did not have a reason to fly, they never would.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 04:47 PM

"Didn't the military use pigeons at one time as messengers?"

I never thought of the military connection....possibly imitating what they see? Interesting. I know parrots and other birds mimic human behaviour. Never considerd pigeons doing the same

:)

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 10:52 AM

I didn't have the patience to read through the article about bird's vision. Still I don't think the head bobbing has anything to do with vision. If they moved their heads from side to side, that might be different.

Walking is not a pigeon's preferred method of transport. Flying is. I think their bodies are not well adapted for walking, and bobbing may restore balance as they waddle toward a goal.

Or it might be that a pigeon spies a crumb, and the small brain directs the small head to bob toward the crumb. The message from the head progresses down the spinal chord toward the feet, which finally get the idea and commence waddling.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 03:33 AM

To be able to gain speed when chased by little boys?

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: Slag
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 03:25 AM

When I saw the thread title I immediately flashed back to basic training and the drill sergent yelling "Watch the head-bob"! Didn't the military use pigeons at one time as messengers? You would think they would approve of a decent head-bob. They sure don't mind bobbing the hair off your head!

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 07:29 PM

Maybe it's got the same reason as bobbing heads among humans, especially orthodox Jewish and Islamic students and scholars at their studies - they find it helps them do what they are doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 05:07 PM

ORRRRR....it could be that they're clucking with annoyance in a Pedantic Pigeon kinda way about humans who can't tell their 'they're' from their 'their'...

;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 05:05 PM

Is it that they have tiny little iPods strapped under one of their wobbly wings, with miniscule earphones which almost invisibly attach into their practically non-existant little ears, causing their pea-sized brains to ringle and tingle with pigeon-toed happiness as they listen to.....

.......


OR...it could be that their chuckling heartily at this:

The Three Pigeons
In classroom full of 8 year old students a teacher posed a question.

"If 3 pigeons are sitting on a washing line and I shoot one of them, how many will be left?"

After a moment of silence the teacher called on the only student whose hand was in the air. Eric was her star student and was always ready for a challenge. She asked Eric to come to the front of the classroom and answer the question.

She said again. "If 3 pigeons are sitting on a washing line and I shoot one of them, how many will be left?"

Eric looked at her and said. "Well Miss, if there are 3 piegons on a washing line and you shoot one of them, one will die and the other 2 will fly away because of the noise."

The teacher looked at Eric and said "Well that wasn't the answer I was looking for, it was 2, but I like the way you think."

She asked Eric to go back to his desk but he turned around and said "I have a question for you Miss."

Since she thought he'd done well with her question she said "ok."

So he began. "There are 3 women sitting on a park bench all with lollypops in their hands. One of the women is licking her lolly, one is nibbling her lolly, and the other is sucking her lolly. Which one is married?"

Feeling rather embarrassed by the question but also obligated to answer the teacher said "The woman who is sucking her lolly?"

Eric looked at her and said "No Miss, it is the one with a ring on her finger, but I like the way you think."


;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: Gurney
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 04:39 PM

Animals which have eyes on the side of their head aren't usually hunters. If they see another animal which is showing TWO eyes, safety dictates that it is usually a predator, so they scarper. Even more quickly if the predator 'hunches' whilst looking at them.

I've wondered Ed's question myself. Perhaps a rudimentary type of binocular vision that their brain sorts out?

Subject: RE: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: gnu
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 04:04 PM

Yes. that is why birds turn their heads sideways to look at you. They need both eyes in a position to be able to judge depth of perception.

Stare directly at a bird "suddenly" while standing still and it will fly off without even turning it's head.

But, there is a trick, actually three, to counteract their flight if you are hunting or photographing them. Someday, I will publish these in my book.

Subject: BS: Bobbing heads when walking
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 03:48 PM

Ever wonder why pigeons bob their head when walking? Wouldn't it make it hard to focus vision? Well, others wonder about the same thing. We all have those not so important questions that come up, make us wonder for a second,that we never get to check up on.

This thread is Ur chance to put 'em forward here, to see if anyone at Mudcat has an answer, or knows a site that does.

Could this be the pigeon answer:
Answer?

Some pigeon discussion here:
Bobbing pigeon heads