BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 10:42 PM

A lot of stuff I had sorta intuitively picked up JiK - thanks for the 'words from and expert'. Flank angle and all that, all makes sense since it's been worked out over a long time. Engineers no longer need to just 'build the next one stronger and hope' and more ...

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: gnu
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 06:43 AM

Good info JiK.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 06:17 AM

"and the Brits' nuts fell off a lot. "

That musta been painful - would the cold weather have had anything to do with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 05:12 AM

The "art" of making fasteners stay where you put them is considerably more complex than is comprehended by most people - and that includes lots of rather excellent mechanics and experienced assembly line people.

There are a few hundred different standards for bolts/screws and nuts for "simple" fastening. There are at least half as many for "retaining devices" that are separate parts to be added.

Mention was made above that a main difference between Whitworth standard threads and SAE is just the thread angle (properly called the flank angle). The difference between 55 degrees and 60 degrees may seem small, but the 55 degree flank applies more radial force, tending to expand the female half of the joint, than the 60 degree, for the same bolt tension. This is one reason that US standards more generally permit retention devices like "prevailing torque nuts" - a.k.a. locknuts, spring lockwashers of four or five common kinds, and even "adhesive retaining compounds" (Loctite). UK Aircraft standards don't permit any of those in most places, partly because when the Whitworth threads were almost universally used, you'd split the nut before developing full tension in the bolt and the Brits' nuts fell off a lot.

On airplanes designed to UK regulations, after EVERY NUT is screwed on and tensioned, you MUST drill a hole through the nut and bolt, and install a cotter pin, or in less critical cases or where there isn't a separate nut, you must use a lock wire (unless the regs have changed recently, which is unlikely).

Spring washers, of the common kind, only retain loose nuts. The "spring" is fully compressed at a bolt tension well below what is required to keep the bolt from loosening in the presence of vibration. It may keep the nut from falling off quite as quickly once it comes loose, but is worhtless for maintaining tension at the 80% of fastener yield stress commonly applied for secure fastening. You use them where the screw would be "inconveniently small" if sized for the clamping needed, and the screw that's "really too big" might break what it's screwed into if you tightened it enough to keep it in.

In cases where the male thread goes into a housing rather than having a nut, the spring washers also can cause sufficient damage to the housing to require replacing the expensive part after very few repairs/adjustments.

The Brit drilled-in pin method nearly always requires replacing both screw and nut even in simple joints every time an adjustment is needed. Of course that's still cost effective compared to replacing a pump or motor.

There are specific US regulations, varying between agencies, for how many times a prevailing torque fastener can be re-used, and in some cases specific inspections that are necessary for any re-use. Some screws/bolts are re-usable a half-dozen times on aircraft if they pass the inspections each time, but "locknuts" almost never get past three-times-on.

You should be able to rely on the manufacturer to have decided what kind of fasteners are needed in a particular product; and to the extent that you can assume competence there, using the "same" fastener for a repair is highly recommended. With the multiplicity of fastener variants available, knowing what is a "form-fit-and-function replacement" really is a bit much to expect of the general population, so getting an "original replacement" part from the original source is still recommended if there's any uncertainty.

Learning to assess what fasteners (and alternates) you should use for a particular application does take some study. It's not too hard to find the information necessary to match a broken fastener; but only of few (like me, and that one other person here whose name I can't recall, of course) have time to learn it all for a problem that only comes up occasionally.

I did pass over mentioning that Home Depot in my area does have limited selections of Grade 3 fasteners, and sometimes a few Grade 5; but both selection and price are generally better at O' Reilly's or Autozone (as examples only). If there's one in your area, Tractor Supply is also sometimes a good place to look for larger sizes of "machine quality" parts like fasteners.

If the part you need to replace hasn't been lost in the weeds, taking the old part with you to the hardware guys often can get you a proper enough replacement since all "graded" fasteners are generally marked to indicate exactly what they are.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:26 AM

JiK carelessly forgot to mention 'spring washers' used for tensioning nuts on bolts, but I suppose he can also explain why they don't really work anyway... :-P

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Bert
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 07:48 PM

....For common uses, a nut is a nut. What you're most likely to get at Home Depot is a common nut for a common use. That means that what you put it on isn't going to wiggle, flex, rattle, or make a lot of noise....

Actually Home Depot and most other hardware stores sell stiff nuts which won't work loose as well as an assortment of lock nuts and lock and spring washers, and maybe even castle nuts. Though none of these are necessary for a table saw.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: gnu
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 07:27 PM

JiK... "It's not (usually) too essential that you sterilize your nuts when working on a lawnmower, but you should at least shake the gravel off before starting to screw."

Thanks but that's too easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 07:25 PM

"The most common cause for "having a loose screw" is failure to install it to proper torque. If the machine shakes, rattles, or rolls, using a properly calibrated torque wrench and getting it to the correct tightness when it's first installed is critical. "

That's what I 'assume' happened to the bolts in my mower. The manager said he was "putting it on the bench for immediate attention next morning."

I'm guessing that the tech didn't like one extra task in his busy schedule, and hurried.....and the bolts vibrated loose after a few uses. I'll never know, but that doesn't make me feel better about the whole thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 05:11 PM

I don't see how $8.00 is a low price for a 5/8 nut. You can buy 5/8 nuts at Home Depot for 6o cents.

For common uses, a nut is a nut. What you're most likely to get at Home Depot is a common nut for a common use. That means that what you put it on isn't going to wiggle, flex, rattle, or make a lot of noise.

For repairs on something like a mower, where there's likely to be a fair amount of vibration and variable loading, you will generally be much better off going to an auto parts store for your nuts and bolts. Hardly anything "automotive" will use fasteners lower than SAE Grade 3, and fasteners appropriate for use directly on engine components should usually be Grade 5. Some chassis and suspension fasteners are commonly Grade 7. (There are similar ratings for metric fasteners, and for other than SAE standard fasteners of kinds more common in the UK and elsewhere.)

While there are very significant differences in the "strength" of the various classes, the more important difference in many cases is that the "graded" fasteners generally will use UNC/UNF threads, rather than NC/NF ones. The "U" standard requires radiused thread roots that are much more resistant to fatigue failure, and they must be inspected and certifiable as to material quality and treatment.

I've had "common" grade nuts split just from being screwed onto the bolt/shaft at torque-wrench measured torque below their "rated strengths," simply because there is no "quality control" that can be relied on.

That said, a 5/8-UNC SAE Grade 3 nut, bought off the shelf, would likely be closer to $2 than to $8. The Sears price is no bargain, unless it's in some way rather "special" (left-hand thread, perhaps?) but is perhaps "realistic" for a specific part that has to be stocked and handled at low turnover rates.

The most common cause for "having a loose screw" is failure to install it to proper torque. If the machine shakes, rattles, or rolls, using a properly calibrated torque wrench and getting it to the correct tightness when it's first installed is critical. Too loose, and the threads will be unloaded, and the fastener will back off. Too tight, and the fastener will be stretched (or cracked/broken), which makes it too loose, and the fastener will back off.

The next most common error is putting dirty parts together (partly because any significant dirt makes it impossible to get an accurate torque). It's not (usually) too essential that you sterilize your nuts when working on a lawnmower, but you should at least shake the gravel off before starting to screw.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 02:39 PM

"...they each failed after only one season."

And a year is a year for warranty purposes...even if it's only used 3-4 times.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Bert
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 01:36 PM

They've managed to keep to the same low price in 2011, fifteen years later....

I don't see how $8.00 is a low price for a 5/8 nut. You can buy 5/8 nuts at Home Depot for 6o cents.

One year I bought a mower and a trimmer from Sears, they each failed after only one season.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 12:19 PM

I see the temptation to go elsewhere, but budget is **tight**. It really startled me, after 24 years of satisfaction with a Craftsman mower, to find the new ones with so many problems. I will see what this trusted repairman' says in the next couple of weeks. If he can get it running by merely replacing the missing bolts, I will probably nurse this model awhile and start a 'fund' for a different type.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: josepp
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 11:19 PM

I had a Craftsman mower. It was okay. Had it for 10 years and little things would go wrong with it. At one point, I couldn't pull start it because the while crank would lift up when I yanked on the rope. I found a couple of screws to stick in there and that held it down. The real problem was priming it. It took some real priming to get it started the older it got especially the first time after being stored all winter.

Finally, I bent the blade when I hit a stump and rather than repair it, I bought a $300 Toro and what a difference. You don't even have to prime the Toro--just a pull and it starts right up even after sitting all winter.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 09:11 PM

28 years ago, I bought a house which had a lawn...moved in in May. The first thing I did was go to Sears and buy a mower. It ran fine, with a few changes of sparkplugs, for 24 years, until it needed a $125 carburetor kit (including installation). By this time the new mowers had the larger rear wheels and more powerful engine, so I decided to invest the $125 in a new model.
....*sigh*...The FIRST time I ran it, the spring-loaded wheel adjustment levers on the front wheel slipped out of notches..(weaker, thinner steel)... and knocked off & chewed up one of the plastic coverings. This slipping continued until I used a bungee cord hooked between them to hold them tighter...which meant they only slipped every 4-5 uses. (I have tree roots which make bumpy mowing, which is why I bought the newer model with larger wheels).
I continued for another year...then it refused to start in the Spring...(had never been a problem with old model), so I sent it in for repairs *note*: 'send'...there used to be an on site repair shop AT the store, and it was possible to talk to the repair guy...now all mowers were sent to central shop in obscure location in Baltimore! When I was notified of the needed repairs, it included **replacing the weak wheel adjusters!**. I said "No! Those were faulty design!" THEY said "It's our policy to inspect all mowers and not to send out any repairs not up to standards." I said, "then don't charge ME"...they said "you've had it for 2½ years...no more warranty"...etc.
   Back & forth we went for maybe 15 minutes until the shop manager just happened to go by and the harried phone guy put him on. I went thru it all again until the manager said HE would make an exception (to shut me up, I guess)...and they sent it back without the $35 replaced adjusters. Fine...right? Last Spring..(after about 4-5 uses that last Fall, the starter cord went "chunk" and refused to wind. When I took the outer shroud off, there were 2 identical major bolts missing from the front of the housing! I called them...."All repairs would entail a charge, and there was no proof it was their fault".
   I borrowed a mower to finish the season, and as I explained to Sears...IF I get this mower repaired, it will be from a trusted mower expert I know of and Sears will get NO more $$$$ from me to fix THEIR flawed mowers and careless repairs.

You wanna hear about the water filter which, after 10 years of use, changed models to a more complex setup at almost double the price and locked up so the water wouldn't go thru?

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 08:34 PM

McGrath -

The answer from gnu - McGrath... tap and die. was incomplete.

Of course he should have said "tap and die from Sears."

But those are one of the few items that usually are clearly marked as "not warrantd against normal wear and tear."

The honest answer is that you can't re-thread your male thing without using a smaller thread diameter than what was originally there, and the reduction in diameter required to properly rethread to fit a diferent-threaded nut means that the shaft (or other part that's rethreaded) will probably break almost immediately when you turn anything on.

The complete gnu answer is that any decent mechanic can readily proceed resolutely until everything is irreparably broken and it will be quite clear that the only thing to do is to buy a new thingy. It's more of a "decision avoidance" thing than a make-do fix.

A common ball cap in US aircraft shops says "If it ain't broke I ain't fixed it."

(Management in most places has not yet figured out the other way one can interpret the statement.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: EBarnacle
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 04:33 PM

You are not thinking creatively. When an applaince fails, buy a similar one and swap the plate with the stickers. When the replacement comes, thank the delivery people and install it in the garage. Repeat as needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: gnu
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 04:21 PM

McGrath... tap and die.

Me and me buddy just had a telecon. His mum's Sears fridge just died, a month after warranty... just like his. His died too. This is the fourth of his Sears stuff to die just after warranty, and he says he will never shop there again.

Unfortunately, the way things are these days, I dunno if that will help.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 03:51 PM

Use a die and cut a new fred then use whatever SAE or UNF or UNC or BA fred you fancy - or even that new-fangled metric stuff...

How do you set about doing that?

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: ragdall
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 02:54 AM

Bert,
I bought an $8.00 nut for my Craftsman radial arm saw about fifteen years ago. I was more fortunate than you, the service department at my local Sears store didn't charge me for shipping.

It's good to see that in spite of inflation, they've managed to keep to the same low price in 2011, fifteen years later.

rags

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 02:26 PM

With Sears over the years
it' been a head noddin' problem
Their Craftsman line's s'posed to be guaranteed fine
But it's just the hand tools they be fobbin'

If you buy Craftsman plugs in that don't start
You might could be up the creek
The rule be buy nothin' from Sears
That has moving parts, or that can leak.

And before someone goes after me for self-righteously defaming a proper name, let me back my poesy up with my 'sperience.

I recently returned a forty year old ratchet wrench that had 'gone solid' and Sears cheerfully got me a brand new equivalent, though they would not let me keep the busted one.

But going back for years has been my experience that Sears can't be trusted to provide quality on first go. I'll never forget getting my first electric typewriter. It was of course a Sears branded Smith Corona, just like my mom's only mine would have a button powered return! And the Sears brown coloring was better for a male than the Smith Corona's blue pastel. This was my big birtday present (In fact, I think it was Hanukah and my birthday, and possibly my brother's birthday rolled into one). This was a MAJOR deal, in fact we had to pre-order it and pick it up in the store at a special place where one normally goes to get furniture and bridal sets. But, one among us four (I remember it as me but...) suggested we actually open the box and get out the typewriter and find a Sears receptacle and plug it in and turn it on, and - prove that it works. What a concept. Challenging the minor gods of commerce! Well, I think the fact that we were all there and the idea was so damned daring and it would be a family thing, we did it! We cracked that box, got the typewriter out of its case, pulled off all the little pieces that the factory puts in to show you how they protected this fresh piece of Amurrikan manufacture just off the line, and we find some space, I think it was in the shoe section, where we could find a receptacle.

Plugged it in, flipped the little wheel on the right side of the unit -

And nothing happened!

SEARS HAD SOLD US A BUM TYPEWRITER!

Anyhow, we marveled out how our daring had saved us an unpleasant surprise at home, which would have been a sad affair. Discovering at the mall made it a kind of adventure.

Years later when the Craftsman router that my brother and I had jointly purchased from Sears failed (more than a year old, less than two years, lightly used, a cast metal bit retainer simply broke off and it became a chore to adequately secure the cutting tools to the spindle) I was to find no support from Sears. We had an expensive boat anchor.

A good friend of mine developed a slight antipathy to the name when a salesman called his mother's home as she was mourning the death of his father. After insisting he talk to the mother and being denied, he said "I just want to remind her that Sears sells tombstones!"

I still shop at Sears. Some of their sales personnel right now are cute. And I STILL mind the moving parts rule!

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 12:43 PM

My favourite from that site:

chromedome05-17-2010, 11:32 AM
When i used to work in the field, i let some idiots borrow a 3lb craftsman beater. When i got it back, it was in 2 pieces. I took each piece to a different sears and got 2 hammers.

corey d

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 12:41 PM

craftsman tools stories

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: gnu
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 12:30 PM

josepp... that should definitely be made "public"... send that to every newspaper and congressman and... that you can.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: josepp
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 12:02 PM

Generic tools are ok--a hammer or a screwdriver. But just about anything else--Craftsman sucks. DO NOT buy a Craftsman level-square!! The last one I had, the blade moved around inside the handle so it was never really square! Got me in trouble where I was working at the time because the holes I plotted and drilled weren't right. My boss chewed my ass and I insisted I plotted them out with a square and they were straight. I went and grabbed the square and pulled on the blade and it was moving all over the place. "That's why you should buy Snap-On," said my boss. So I bought one before the week was out. And I had to fix those holes and it was a bitch.

But these Armstrong tools the Army uses blow also. I have to use them when I tear a vehicle or machine apart to troubleshoot the hydraulics and electrical systems for the soldiers in the field. I have to use the tools they use which are Armstrong and they suck. The diagonal clippers or "dikes" in the set are the most clumsy pieces of crap. The ones the Navy issued to me when I was serving were great--best dikes in the world. Not the Army's--junk.

I had a bolt I needed to remove so I tried every socket--metric and English--in the kit and none fitted. Impossible! So I tried a box wrench and removed the bolt with a 7/16. Then I put the 7/16 socket over the head of the bolt while I was holding the damn thing in my hand and it wouldn't fit! Same size marked on the socket and wrench but clearly two different sizes. And this what the soldiers are issued to do their jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: EBarnacle
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 12:38 AM

Same game for their outboards, when they sold them. They were simply relabled and had another casing over the power head. Most of the parts were generic.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 12:30 AM

Since Sears doesn't actually make anything for themselves, it's reasonably safe to assume that anything with moving parts is a "knock-off" of similar products sold under other brand names, sometimes even by the people who make them.

For appliances, the appearance parts are easily modified to achieve a "distinctive look" for the ones made to be sold under a foreign name. It's normal practice to not make spare parts or extra parts the a buyer might use to "customize" the appliance, such as by adding an extra shelf in the 'fridge or another basket in the top-loading freezer. Those parts can be virtually impossible to get, and if obtainable they'll have an outrageous price.

A replacement knob for your stove can break the bank; but your local appliance repair shop almost always has a full set of matched (to each other) knobs that won't significantly change the appearance of the stove and that won't cost all that much.

The "working parts" such as heating elements, switches, rheostats, thermostats, and such usually are "close enough," and frequently identical, to the parts used in other "brand named" appliances, and a good service person nearly always can "make it work" just like new, with parts out of the stock on hand for the brands the shop services regularly.

In recent past times, Sears very jealously guarded the "secrets" about who made appliances that they sold; but more recently it's been fairly easy to get the same fit-and-function, if not identical appearance, from other sources without too much trouble.

Regarding: I had a Sears riding lawnmower - Prior to the time when Sears started selling a few ZTR mowers, the "tractor style" mowers were, and still are, built by only a couple of makers. The "big name" makers like Deere, etc., seldom have allowed rebranding, so that leaves ONE principal maker, called MTD, as the source for replacement parts for very nearly any "tractor style" riding mower Sears (or Home Depot, Tractor Supply, etc.) has sold.

Ten years ago, when the muffler set some leaves on fire and burned the wire harness out of my Husky, it took me nearly a YEAR to find any place that could get the parts for repair. Having made quite a stink about the lack of part lists and manuals at MTD, over three subsequent similar "annual events," and eventaully filing a report with CPSC over the fifth such "ignition problem," I will take credit for there being excellent (or at least unusally good) part lists on their site, easily identifiable local service shops, and almost might be tempted to say that the replacement parts are "almost within reason" with respect to price. (I probably don't deserve any real credit, but nobody's arguing with me, and I got a personal apology from a VP at Briggs & Stratton in the last deal.)

Once you KNOW that the belt on your mower is the same one that's on some MTD model, lots of places have them. In most cases you don't even need to know a specific model that uses the one you want.

The drive belts and deck belts on mowers are significantly different in design from the more common automotive and "general purpose" ones. You can usually find cheaper belts that fit okay. On a smooth lawn, the cheaper belts will run for a while, but my mowing philosophy has been, of necessity, that if the mower can crawl over it, it should be able to chew it up. In that kind of use, the mower belts do last significantly longer than the cheap ones, and the prevailing "discount store rate" is about $30 for one of the real ones now, vs Sears $45 - 50 or so the last time I checked at Sears a few years ago.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 09:35 PM

Unreal Kendall. That's the time to call Marketplace. Yeah, it's CBC but they would "do it".

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: kendall
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 07:48 PM

Many years ago my Father in law had a problem with his Sears band saw. He sent the part to Sears and when he git it back he suspected they had simply sent his old one, so he marked it and returned it for a new one. You guessed it, his old part came back again!

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Gurney
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 06:47 PM

Sometimes Hitachi also go for non-generic sizes. One saw I have has an unusual mandril size, and I have to buy 1mm bigger and centre-punch tits into it to make it 'centre.'
My only Craftsman tool is a portable table-saw. It was bought new in South Africa by a builder, who used it until he retired in New Zealand, and I bought it from his heir ten years ago. No idea how old it is, but OLD. And good, apart from the cast-monkey-metal controls, which are breaking one-by-one.
Will they really replace broken parts FOC? Must try.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 11:28 AM

Garage sales are a great place for finding replacement parts, but you have to be patient and keep a list in your head (or pocket) of the bits you're looking for. And eBay can be a good place for replacement parts.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 11:20 AM

Responses to several posts above in no particular order.

Craftsman hand tools used to be top quality, and may still be for all I know. They had a lifetime guarantee, and when one actually did break while in use by a friend of mine it was replaced at no charge per the guarantee.

On their Kenmore major appliances they used to have the manufacturers use non standard, or reversed threading so you'd have to use Sears servicers; I don't know if this is still the case.

Sears is not the only company charging prices which may seem excessive. For most brands of dishwashers, for instance, replacing a rack can cost more that half the original cost of the machine new. I once had to replace the plastic control knob on a dishwasher. The knob cost $25, and that was with a courtesy discount since I was in the industry. A replacement glass refrigerator shelf can cost upwards of seventy-five dollars.

A magazine I subscribe to charges shipping and handling based on the dollar amount of the order of products (books and related) from them.
The charges at $100 are $12.50. I ordered a library on a single CD-Rom disc ($105) which weighs mere ounces, and probably actually can ship for about a dollar. In reading through the offers, I could have bought five actual books from them for the same shipping cost...books which would have weighed, in aggregate, perhaps 2 or 3 pounds, and which would have required more time and effort in packaging. Makes no sense to me, except greed.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Mooh
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 10:44 AM

They also made some weird stuff like my radial arm cut off saw with no depth of cut. Works good, but doesn't chop or adjust depth. The only blade that will fit the thing is a Craftsman blade.

Have had some other Craftsman stuff. The hand held belt sander is good, the drill was not, the table saw is okay but a little underpowered (it's a belt drive), the band saw is good but I never use the tilt head anymore, long since replaced the drill press with a King and then something I forget the name of.

I don't think their hand tools are any better than say Canadian Tire's best, but anything with a replacement warranty is okay with me as long as it's convenient, which Sears is not and Canadian Tire is. So I've pretty much quit buying Craftsman unless it's to service what I bought 20 to 25 years ago.

Over the years though I've accumulated a core selection of good tools and that's enough for me. Mostly name brand stuff.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: gnu
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 09:47 PM

Extended warranties... I ask the salespeeps if they would buy the extended warranty themselves... if they say yes, I say "Hmmmm... can't be a very good product... think I'll shop around a bit more."

I got one from a few months ago... found a replacement drive belt at sears.com (US). Called Sears here in Canada and gave them the part number. Nope. They don't sell those in Canada. Sears US will not ship one to me... you could get someone you know in the US to order it and have it shipped to them to forward it to you.

Again, thanks Kendall for being willing to do so.

I sourced the belt locally as it is a commonly available belt at a price far cheaper than Sears would (not) supply for. Wouldn't have known that if I didn't have a buddy in the know who was able to guide me to a supplier.

Sears sucks.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 09:15 PM

At one time, Sears was the best place to get many things; but competition with discount marketers (in part) resulted in their hiring lots of "managers" and "marketers" and their value as a place to go has declined draastically.

Craftsman hand tools still, in most cases, have the lifetime guarantee; but they now use the Craftsman name on tools that are considered "consumable" and the lifetime is "the useful lifetime of the tool" rather than your lifetime. For those things, Sears considers it "no longer useful if it breaks." and it's lifetime is expired.

Different warranties for different items are a practical necessity in today's markets, but Sears does an exceedingly poor job of indicating which tools have which conditions.

For tools that are covered by the traditional Craftsman guarantee, I've found that store employees generally are not aware that Sears has ever warranted anything, so it nearly always is neessary to "escalate" a claim to "higher management." Escalating loudly, and assembling a crowd has been an effective method for me, and in a couple of cases I've received applause from the crowd when the salesperson had completed the training that I provided.

That shouldn't be necessary.

If you want a lifetime warranty on tools that's stil a true "no-quibble" one, you can buy Snap-On tools - at about 3x the Craftsman price, if you can find an agent.

Many areas in the US do have a Sears parts outlet, although it can be hard to find one even when one is nearby. Repair parts can usually be found at one of these without paying the extra shipping costs, but they're still usually more costly than from other sources if you can make a "conversion."

In my area, among the 30 or 40 "hardware stores" within a half-hour, there are about three where I can buy a left-hand threaded nut in SAE, UNF, UNC, Whitworth, BAE, or a couple of "standard non-standard" threads; but it takes research to locate the few that have the less common ones.

My personal objection to regularly patoronizing Sears is that their advertising is false, misleading, and predatory. Their "sale" prices for tool sets are invariably the regular price for the set, but are compared to the cumulative price of buying each component of the set separately at the "single-piece" prices.

That's dishonest.

I've also had at least three friends who worked for Sears who had excellent sales performance, but were "attritioned" for not selling enough "extended warranties." You should not have to buy something twice to expect it to work, but Sears now makes a very large percentage of income from "it won't work unless you pay extra" - which, if true, renders their advertised prices false, misleading, and dishonest.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:59 PM

I bought a Kenmore washer and dryer back in 2003, when I first moved to Idaho. Back around 2007 or -8 the dryer decided not to dry anymore. So we called the Sears repair guy.

It was the circuit board, and the cost of repair (slide in a new board?) was more than the cost of a new dryer.

Screw it, thought I. So we wandered through "Consumer Reports" and found their top-of-the-line dryer. Okay, in white instead of camo or international orange or puke or any other color...and I called Lowes.

Yup, we can get them. Here's the cost. Take about six weeks....

So I called a local store. Sure, no problem, in fact we have one in stock...and the truck is getting ready to go out.

An hour later a new dryer was installed -- and at a hundred or so bucks less than Lowes wanted.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: kendall
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:01 PM

I hate Sears.I have a short list of complaints going back 40 years, but the last one was really what tore the rag off the bush.
The control switch on my well pump died and I went to Sears warehouse for a new one...gone! I ended up trying to buy one on line and it was nearly the price of a whole pump.
Ended up going to Maine Hardware and buying a new switch for $20.00.
No way will I ever buy anything from Sears again.
They make great wrenches and they are guaranteed for life but I don't want to support them any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: EBarnacle
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 07:26 PM

Independent of brand, I have never had a router which would hold its depth.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 06:21 PM

Use a die and cut a new fred then use whatever SAE or UNF or UNC or BA fred you fancy - or even that new-fangled metric stuff...

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Bert
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 05:31 PM

and isn't the nut that holds that blade on a reverse thread? ...

Not on this saw. I guess it depends on which side they put the motor.

And over $16 would still be exorbitant even for a left hand nut.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 05:24 PM

Tools are one thing....Sears machinery is quite another. Hand tools are fine, but power saws and stuff like lawnmowers have gone downhill in 20 years....and isn't the nut that holds that blade on a reverse thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 05:16 PM

I love Craftsman hand tools... Still have most of the ones my parents bought me when I was 14 years old...

Table saws anymore are like BIC lighters... Cheap and expendable...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Les from Hull
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 04:49 PM

Q The other main screw thread was BSF (British Standard Fine), before it all went European and Metric.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Bert
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 04:34 PM

Craftsman hand tools have a 100% lifetime warranty

As long as it isn't a pocket screw drilling kit. The drill is stepped and is made with a sharp corner in the step. It broke before finishing the first hole. Of course they don't replace drill bits even if they are poorly made.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 04:04 PM

In general, I have had good experiences with Sears hand tools. Well-made, and the guarantee is the icing on top.

Repair parts are a problem with Sears-
I had a Sears riding lawnmower that gave me good service- used it for ten years and passed it on when I didn't need it any more. Replacement belts from Sears were ridiculously expensive, but I checked with my automobile mechanic and he got the same spec belts for 1/10 the Sears cost ($6 vs. $60+).

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 03:41 PM

On the other hand, Craftsman hand tools have a 100% lifetime warranty. I picked up a combination wrench from the "free" box at a garage sale that had one arm of the open end broken off. Sears replaced it for nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Bert
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 03:20 PM

US standard threads copied Whitworth, but they use a 60 degree thread angle instead of Whitworths 55 degree. They are interchangeable with a little persuasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: gnu
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 03:00 PM

Ed... now ye KEN why it costs MORE to shop at Sears.

BTW... Bob Villa is the poster boy for Craftsman... that is enough to turn me off. That twit spewed so much crap on his TV shows that I had to stop watching even though watching Norm and Riley was a joy.

"What are we doing now, Riley?"

"Well, Bahb, we ahh gonna set up this heahh staging so we cahn get up ta tha them garrahts and staht the trim wahk."

"While Riley is busy working his ass off, let's go see who else we can ask a stupid question."

"Okay, evryone ready? On the count of three..." Just once, I wanted to see all the guys lift a wall about half way and let go in unison, leaving Bahb to not have enough sense to let go. Seriously, the arrogant twit just grates me the wrong way. If he actually did use Craftsman tools, that would be enough to scatter me back to Crappy Tire or Home o' the Hardware Man... even, shudder, Home Despots.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 02:59 PM

Whitworth is as standard as threads get. It was the very first standardized thread: Witold Rybczynski's history of the screw and the screwdriver, "One Good Turn", gives the story (before Whitworth, each bolt and its matching nut were hand-made in pairs). It is still the standard thread for camera mounting bushes, worldwide (1/4" for the smaller ones, 3/8" for heavy-duty stuff like large format cameras). I'd bet it's still used in the US for hinges on agricultural doors and similar applications.

I have never found out what the thread is on the neck bush and lyre mount for my 1922 Buescher True-Tone C melody sax. The butterfly head broke off the threaded shaft, and my repairman had to braze it back together because he had no more idea than I did where to buy a new one. What threads did they use in the US in the 1920s?

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: gnu
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 02:42 PM

Sears sucks. They lost my business on April 1, 1986. Long and very upsetting story but I use their weekly flyer to start fires in my wood stove so I have found value in them. If you want customer service and not customer servicing, Sears is not the place to buy anything except brand name products unassociated with them. And, buy the extended warranty directly from the manufacturer if you want one.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Ed T
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 02:30 PM

The veggie tray cracked on my Sears brand fridge. I called and asked how much a replacment would be....$150.00.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 02:23 PM

grrrrr I went through that trying to get a cover for my new Mr. Coffee grinder; the cover was missing when I opened the box a couple of years after buying it.

The cover, he told me, is listed at 99 cents. However, the shipping and handling would be $24.99! He said it is their policy to use FedEX. I asked, WHY? By mail it would cost maybe two dollars.

We went 'round and 'round- I told him thatI would have thought that as a major brand they would make good. He told me that the warranty was off. I told him that rather than pay that for a lid I would buy a new grinder - but not his brand.

He ended up sending me a complimentary lid, free. By mail.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 02:17 PM

Uncommon thread patterns used to be common. I ued to know the names, but have forgotten, They never made it to hardware stores because of few sales.
(ask anyone who had an old British car. Sometimes the wait for a bolt delivery stretched into months. Over here, the dealer was the source, and he always multiplied the cost to him by 10)

Oh, yes, Whitworth was the name of one of those threads.

Subject: BS: Why I don't buy Craftsman tools
From: Bert
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 02:02 PM

I have this old Craftsman table saw and lost the nut that holds the blade on.

Craftsman designed this with a non standard thread; so I can't just go to Home depot and buy a 5/8 nut for 60cents. I know I tried them all.

So I had to buy one from Sears. But they don't stock them in the store so I had to buy one online.


Here's what it cost me.

        
NUT         1            $         7.99            $         7.99


        Item Total         $         7.99
        Shipping         $         7.99
        Sales tax         $         0.51
        Order Total         $         16.49