BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 11 - 07:03 PM

It is, I suppose, possible that the internet facilitates relevant research as to means.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 May 11 - 05:18 PM

During the period of despair I went through a number of years ago (as I decribed above) I found that I just didn't have the courage to take my own life. I wanted to, but somehow I couldn't do it. This might mean that I wasn't sufficiently distressed, or that I was too cowardly. Maybe those who do ultimately end their life are braver in a way. What we need to discover is why some teenagers draw back from suicide, yet others go ahead with it, even though the suffering may be identical in both groups. Is it that they have more determination in their characters?

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 May 11 - 03:51 PM

I think there are two main types of suicide that come to mind.

1) Impulsive

2) Considered

I`m not suggesting either is right or more rational than the other.

I knew a young fellow who stood in front of a train. He was very drunk at the time. The scene afterwards indicated he hadn`t changed his mind at the last second.

Knew another who after a great loss in his life--one with which he could no longer live--put a gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger.

To some people, life isn`t what many consider it to be--happy, fulfilling, etc. It`s a chore to get through day after day. Living like that doesn`t leave some people too many options. It hurts those around, but ya have to live to hurt. Death is not always the worst thing a guy could go through.

Best wishes to all of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 May 11 - 11:22 PM

I think one element can also be the difficulty a lot of people have in asking for help. And, when one is down/depressed, it can be even harder to ask...the mind has such a way of talking one out of taking any kind of action.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: Janie
Date: 05 May 11 - 10:37 PM

I don't think many would disagree that despair is one ingredient, but I think suicide is often more complicated than that.

Not every one who experiences deep, even total despair attempts suicide.

I think despair is the one possible "why" that most of us can comprehend and empathize with.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 05 May 11 - 06:17 PM

I agree, Little Hawk, but sometimes total despair can be almost paralysing, and finding any motivation is very hard. I have been in that state before, a long time ago, and even getting up from the chair was a major effort. I found (if I could summon the energy) going outside and walking among trees, or in the countryside, could help. Nature heals, but sometimes nothing works. And one doesn't want to trouble ones friends. A young teenager in such a frame of mind could well feel that death is preferable.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 May 11 - 05:37 PM

Yes, "despair" is the word that sums it up best, I think. I find that a change of company and circumstances can do wonders...if it's the right change. But how to arrange it? That's the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 05 May 11 - 05:26 PM

I imagine it's a case of unendurable despair. Once the pain gets too much to bear, suicide seems to be the only way out. My Samaritan friend was given a lot of training to cope with suicidal callers, but often she says, people can hardly speak and may hang up. I think, with that level of mental agony, one is unable to communicate with parents, friends etc. Terribly tragic.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 May 11 - 01:01 PM

There was one young man amongst my mother's close relatives who committed suicide. He did so because he was in love with a girl and she rejected him. I think he was around age 19 or 20 at the time. Other than that I don't know of any history of suicide in my family line....just a lot of depression in some cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 May 11 - 08:36 AM

I understood, Janie.
The "why" is part of it. The study I originally talked about tries to see why some commit suicide and others don't in the same circumstances.
Alcohol, drugs and depression played into my families incidents. Of course, I know only what my parents chose to tell me so...

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 05 May 11 - 12:40 AM

This is partucularly hard because by definition you cannot personnally question "why?"
And, (in my recent experience) it is hard for people to *not* see (or in a self-defense fashion create) a nefarious influence (drugs, prostitution, etc.)
We can bang our heads against the wall and make up all kinds of shit, but we cannot really live inside someone else's head and really understand why.
That is the cruelest torture of all, because the "whys" we make up (egocentrically?) involve us.
And maybe they do...

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: Janie
Date: 05 May 11 - 12:14 AM

you be a patient one, Kat.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:37 PM

Janie, it was fine to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: Janie
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:20 PM

Think I need to sell a few commas. That 1st post was even worse than usual.

double sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:17 PM

Yeah. ;-) No problem.

I'm thinking I must be lucky not to be living in Belarus...

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: Janie
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:14 PM

referring to my post, LH, not yours.....

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: Janie
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:13 PM

Geeze - the above is almost coherent to patient readers. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:10 PM

Suicide has long been thought of as "honorable" in Japanese society, since it is a way of restoring personal honor after having "failed" (or been seen to fail) in some manner...and there is a pretty high suicide rate there, relatively speaking.

The highest rates, however, appear to be in most of the former sections of the Soviet Union, and I would expect that's largely because of economic distress and pessimism about the future in those societies.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: Janie
Date: 04 May 11 - 10:32 PM

There have been a number of studies that demonstrate men are more likely to successfully suicide than women, for the reasons stated. This holds true across cultures.

Suicide Rates (per 100,000), by country, year, and gender.


Suicide rates vary significantly based on factors that include cultural influences. (Reporting of rates also varies significantly by culture.) The study linked to below does a pretty good job of laying out the caveats regarding the data, while also having enough data and statistical tools to draw some reasonable conclusions.

Global Suicides Among Young People age 15-19.

Families have within them their own cultures around many things, including suicide. In addition to what others have said, I sometimes wonder, when there is a multigenerational history of suicide within a family, if one possible element, within some families, is that suicide, once one person has suicided, it becomes more "thinkable" than it might have otherwise, depending on how the extended family deals with or makes meaning of the legacy.

There is no question that depression and severe and persistent mental illness have a genetic component. Fact is, most families with a strong family history of the above do not have a strong family history of suicide. Genetics may certainly play a role, but many other social factors probably come to bear.

The ease with which information is spread and therefore unintentionally normalized today also, at least in my very personal and unsubstantiated by research opinion, contributes to higher rates of teen suicide and of teen suicide pacts that get carried out - Probably for the same reason that wide and immediate distribution of the news on Columbine continues to contribute to "copycat" attempts, some successful and some not. Copycat is in quotes because my intent is not to minimalize the phenomena.

If I had time in my life, I might be interested in going back and comparing social statistics and/or extrapolating what I can from essays and the historical record from the period of the industrial revolution, especially from about 1860 to 1914, to the current era, say...1980 to date. Then I would go back and read Durkheim again, especially regarding suicide and anomie. Not because I think suicide, teen or otherwise, is primarily determined by social conditions, but because I think the protective factors that enable people to deal with the inevitable suffering of life most often stem from a combination of psychological and social factors. Media -news and social networking- reports without clear context or unambiguous cultural/social judgement.

The desire for attention, empathy, understanding is strong within all of us.

One socially protective factor, as coercive as it may be, is a strong social and cultural prohibition against suicide, one that condemns suicide, making it both shameful and incomprehensible. I'm not advocating that, or taking any position. I'm just sayin'....

Life, individually and collectively, is complicated.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 May 11 - 09:16 PM

I think that part of it is fashion - self harming being a less extreme variant.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 04 May 11 - 07:56 PM

Sinsull, I am sorry that you and your family have been affected by suicides. I am also sorry that your previous thread was hijacked.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 May 11 - 06:11 PM

Here is a fascinating study found by EmmaB:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1414751/

Seems to indicate both genetic and financial causes.

I did find an interesting study but can't put my hands on it now stating that men are 3X more likely to commit suicide than women BUT woman are 5X more likely than men to try. The method of suicide is part of the reason - men choose guns which can be very effective vs poison or prescription drug overdoe (the women's choice). I wonder how much of this is related to families protecting a daughter's reputation by hiding a suicide. In fact, I would have to believe that the statistics in Emma's find are way off since some countries for religious and cultural reasons abhor suicide.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: Bill D
Date: 04 May 11 - 05:57 PM

The issues Little Hawk notes are really relevant...but in today's world there are even more as kids deal with 'standards of beauty' (such as weight) and 'social media' where some tend to value themselves by numbers and types of 'friends'... and other slippery, ambiguous criteria. Even the old bullying problem has taken on new dimensions with internet/WWW harassing going on.
All the old things that worried and upset kids are still there...but with overlays that we can barely comprehend yet. Most teens today can't even imagine a time without cell phones and Facebook and the rules about 'how to behave' there are still being written and NOT really enforced.

When all this is added to the possible genetic links noted in the OP, it is really scary trying to sort out...or even become aware of... each young person's concerns.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 May 11 - 05:52 PM

Thank you all for your comments. Thank you to those who PM'd me.
I mentioned to Jacqui today that with the killing of Osama bin Laden I find myself dwelling on September 11 and re-living it minute by minute. When I am able to focus on something else, I start remembering petty slights like a car that cut me off in 1962. The anger is resurfacing. I will be fine. I have learned how to deal with anger, depression, guilt. But I wonder about the young ones who were so completely trumatized on that day. Some were never able to return to school. Remember that there were schools at Ground Zero and teachers who disappeared.
Add this research on brain malfunctioning to the mix.
I agree with Eliza that depression and suicide is in some way genetic but whether it is hard wired in us or taught by ancestors repeating parenting mistakes, I don't know. I am amazed at the number of relatives and friends who marry into the same emotional problems they endured as children.
Alcohol survivors marrying alcoholics long before they show their drinking problem. A sister-in-law whose father committed suicide marrying the grandson of a suicide. Is it being attracted to what you know or is it possible that the problem is so fdar reaching that it can't be avoided?
Shakespeare writes of teenage suicides - Romeo, Juliet, Ophelia - making me believe it was not uncommon in his time.
Certainly in my childhood it was not discussed for fear of being refused burial in consecrated ground.
Animals starve themselves to death when depressed. Shelters are seeing it now in Alabama with isplaced pets some of whom lost their owners and all suffered horrible stress during and after the storms.
I am rambling. Thank you for the opportunity.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 May 11 - 05:34 PM

I think it's a sense of powerlessness (and accompanying feelings of worthlessness) that brings most teenagers to the depths of depression. That was certainly what depressed me when I was a teenager. It was the feeling of powerlessness in the face of parents, schools and teachers, society in general, and other people my own age in particular. I felt utterly powerless to defend myself against the dominance of all of the above over my life, and I felt there was no possible escape. It's not surprising that a person in such a position might commit suicide. I never thought about it at the time in any deliberate sense of doing anything specific to kill myself, but I quite often wished that I were dead. The only way I could escape was through books, music, in nature, and in solitude. When you're alone (or in the company of a pet) at least you are free for the moment from various forms of assault and domination by other people (I'm referring primarily to emotional assault, not physical, but there was some of the latter too...from my father, who was no good at controlling either his short temper or his expectations of what his son ought to be like...certainly not anything like me).

I would sure hate to be back there now. If I was, I hope I'd have the nerve and the wits to leave home very early and never look back.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: gnu
Date: 04 May 11 - 05:19 PM

Kendall... sad, and far TOO true at this moment in time.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 May 11 - 05:18 PM

I also think that teenagers are sometimes inordinately spiteful and cruel, and in their wish to be accepted by their peers, they eagerly gang up on a victim. The individual thus isolated is often despairing and vulnerable. No-one has yet mentioned The Samaritans. I have a friend who is one, and she says that they get many calls from distraught teenagers. Very worrying and sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: kendall
Date: 04 May 11 - 05:12 PM

The family dynamics are not what they used to be. Too often they are simply people living in the same house with not enough personal communication.
The American dream is a nightmare, and the kids are paying dearly.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 May 11 - 04:57 PM

I've often wondered if a tendency to suicide is genetic. In a village not far from my own, in Norfolk UK, a lovely lady whom I knew well, found her husband hanged in their garage. Two weeks later, their son, aged 22, did the same thing, leaving a young, pregnant wife. THEN we heard that the grandfather had taken his own life a few years before. Three generations, all by hanging. And in each case there was no sign of depression or distress. Maybe in the future, medical tests will check on young people's state of mind biochemically, and perhaps these abnormalities will be rectified with medication and monitoring.
I do feel that social isolation (eg if both parents are out at work and too tired to engage with their children) is a factor, as you suggest kendall.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: kendall
Date: 04 May 11 - 02:22 PM

One of my classmates in the 8th grade killed herself. No one knows why.
Students have always had tests, crappy teachers and bullies to deal with, but, when I was young, the Father worked and the Mother stayed home and raised the kids. Now they must both work to keep body and soul together. It's a high price for out of control kids, but color TV and two cars are great to have, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:30 AM

One of the saddest suicides of my recent experience was a friend of my family who had separated from his wife and who was having difficulty getting over the separation. He had a young son, probably aged around twelve or so but he didn't see much of him. This man's father had also committed suicide when he was a young boy too. What a way to keep up family traditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:27 AM

Alaska has a high rate of suicides and I understand that Sweden does also. Could lack of heat and sunshine be a contributing factor, do you suppose? (Mind you, one reason that I am in Alaska is that I like the chill air.)

In Juneau, over the last several years we have had a number of teen suicides that absolutely stunned family and friends. I was at a memorial service for one of them where the reiterating phrase to the roomful of youthful attendees was: We are here. Look around you- every one of us signifies by our presence that you can approach any one of us and we will find a way to help.

It would/will not only be a comfort to family to realize that their youngster possibly had a malfunction of the brain that led to the inability to resist the act but it is also a concrete starting point in combatting it.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:23 AM

Teenage suicide, any suicide is hard to fathom and even worse for friends and family left behind who are left wondering if they could have done more or given more time to the person or understood more. You feel like that after a bereavement anyway regretting not spending more time together.

When I had just left school and started work a local boy a year or two older than me committed suicide sometime in the early 70's he was good looking, new job, popular with everyone he had everything going for him. One day in the local newspaper it said he was found in the families garage in a car with a pipe threaded through the window dead. No-one who new him well could believe that someone like that would do that.

Suicide pacts with teenage couples it is hard to understand why both would decide to do that. Some girls have hormonal problems and if very young with those problems emotionally might not be unable to cope as well as a full adult might everyone is different. Talking from experience there were many times that I felt like swallowing packs of painkillers myself. Boys keep things inside more and even though it should be easier to open up to teachers and councellors these days some might not still be able to talk about problems or whatever is hurting them, depending too on the circle of friends they are in with. Perhaps some teenagers dissasociate themselves from the reality of death somewhat because they see it so often in films or tv. I remember songs like Leader of the Pack or Terry by Twinkle although the subject is not about suicide as such there was an unrealistic notion about death.

It is so sad for the families.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:11 AM

Also, I think it can be very difficult for loved ones to realise there is a problem at all. Teenagers can be so good at looking happy etc. so no-one would ever expect a suicide. It is this aspect that makes the explanation of a brain malfunction even more likely.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:05 AM

I didn't post on the other thread and I don't really know anything about teenage suicide but when I look back to my own teens things happened that, initially, I found impossible to talk to anyone about and then everything seemed to escalate until it became intolerable. I didn't ever get to the trying to commit suicide stage and thankfully when I became really desperate I was able to talk to my doctor. I often wonder if some teenage suicides can be attributed to similar experiences and the inability to be able to talk about the problem.
A brain malfunction that triggers suicidal thoughts could explain why some teenagers do not manage to cope with their problems but others do, although a brain malfunction isn't the only possible explanation ~ some just have better coping skills. I agree that it is a frightening thought but one that must be of some comfort to families who have lost a child in this way.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 May 11 - 10:37 AM

Here is one moderator who will keep an eye on it, Jacqui.

kat

[So will this one]

Subject: BS: Teenage Suicide Part 2
From: jacqui.c
Date: 04 May 11 - 10:29 AM

This is the opening post from SINSULL's previous thread, which suffered from the worst kind of thread creep.

New Hampshire Public TV has a series of Independent films which are shown on Sunday mornings. They are always brilliantly done and thought provoking.
Today's was about teenage suicide in Pennsylvania. The film concentrated on two aspects - first, a group that counsels families who have lost a child to suicide and second on research funded by the Mellon Foundation which seems to indicate a brain malfunction that triggers suicidal thoughts and actions in teenagers.
I found it comforting for the families who have blamed themselves for their own loss and frightening for the rest of us. The implication is that even the most watchful parent can not prevent a suicide with counseling, talking to their children, etc. If the impulse hits and a child is impaired little can be done to prevent him or her from acting on the impulse. It adds some credence to the claim that we here so often from close friends and families - "We saw nothing to hint that anything was wrong." Depression and bi-polar personality aside, there are teens with brains not fully functional who will try suicide because of a lack of brain activity in the frontal lobe.
The film was dedicated to the "lost" children whose photos, ages and date of suicide were played out at the end. So many beautiful, seemingly happy children in prom photos, sports uniforms, charity events, graduations,
Funny how often I have looked at a child who seemed ripe for hurting him or herself and never did. A piece to the puzzle.

Now, Mary is a very dear friend of mine and has raised a very serious subject that merits discussion. Let's see if the subject of this post can be discussed here WITHOUT being hijacked.

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