Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: InOBU
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 06:31 PM

episcopos! That is almost as bad as overseer! }-0 ! Larry

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: Penny S.
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 06:29 PM

Thanks for that, Alex - my mind went blank and went trawling after the old electrical episcope in the school stock cupboard. In the connection of bishops, it was years before I suddenly "saw" the word with an "Oh, that's what it means!".

Penny

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 06:07 PM

fwiw, episcopos

Alex

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: InOBU
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 06:02 PM

Dear Penny!
I was having one TERRIBLE day, your note really cheared me up! Thanks and enjoy coming home, and I hope in future Friends WILL care enough, or notice enough to ask when a Friend or friend is absent from where-ever!
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: Penny S.
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 02:14 PM

Thanks Friends and friends. I've not been to Meeting for a while now. I was going to say why, but who knows who sees what is written here. After a while, it was not that reason, but that no-one from my own Meeting got in touch to see what the problem was, even though we have overseers whose duty it is (and it is simply an Englishisation of episcop(don't know the ending), or bishop). Anyway, this oversight continued after a hint that I needed to talk something out, and it was easier not to go.

This thread has shown me that a failing of one Meeting (not my own) is not a failing of the whole - none of them were in the KKK - so I feel drawn back again.

Thanks again,

Penny

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: InOBU
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 11:27 AM

In my old leather breeches and my shaggy shaggy locks
I am walking in the glory of the light said Fox
Funny you should mention that! I actually had a (oh boy get this... we now call the elders OVERSEERS! sounds like the slave days!) "overseer" quote me one of Fox's statements on the divinity of Christ.
I who also see Quaker faith as a zen process (as a young Quaker we - as a group of young Quakers used to go the the Zen studies society as an adjunct to understanding waiting on the Lord...)... well as I was saying, I said to him, "Well, I always believed Fox, if he were involved in this discussion today, would say he showed us a path, not left us with a set of beliefs and observations, or we'd have a Pope and a creed!"
In light of modern linguistic forensics, we can trace the origins of beliefs in the gospels, and as a result, many Catholic historians have been driven out of the church. I would hate to see that as a growing trend in the Society of Friends. I hope we are strong enough in our faith in God to see that as we know more about the history of Jesus, as a man, we can come to understanding that Christ as an abstraction of faith should bring us closer to understanding that there is God in everyone (I almost wrote as a knee jerk to my youth everyman! - whoops!).
If we have to rely on the pagan alternative, of seeing God in a thing (the historical figure of Jesus), well, it will be very hard for educated Friends to remain in the Society.
BUT, on the other hand, I am trying hard to find a middle ground of tolerance, of learning to see God in the intolerant Friends in our meetings, who fail to see God in my beliefs... Ain't we a bunch?!
I have to ask Genie, my wife, it may have been Chester, rather than Guildford! I was thinking of that meeting on the past first day.
Someone rose and began to read a statement, that was a bit, well odd. It was a commandment from God to paint the White House black FOREVER (he thundered). An elder/overseer - whatever, rose and gently asked him not to read testimony, and he began to yell at the other Friend.
I was trying to find that commonality in silence for awhile after that, and remembered a meeting in Chester or Guildford, which was very very small, so I suppose there was no First Day school. Two young children were in meeting, and after awhile got board and began to play, sucking in air, making VERY QUIET noise. Finally they began to giggle and their mum dealt with them, one way or another, but it did not take away from the silence anymore than do chirping birds. I thought of how what we see as distractions can be incorporated into our silence, and before the end of meeting a Friend rose and said that though the testimony was not in the usual form of our worship, it really made her think. I guess we really are a bunch!
All the very best, Larry

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: IanC
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 10:41 AM

Mole

I don't think that the first priority of any religion is to provide comfort. As far as being a Quaker is concerned, it's an attempt to try and live your life by a principle. As George Fox said, "Christianity is not a notion but a way.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: LR Mole
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 10:28 AM

And yet, for sometning that ostensibly is to provide comfort, it causes so much pain. Perhaps this is part of the point, though.Bewildering.

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 09:37 AM

Ministers! Choirs! Ecumenical intolerance?! criticising other Friends ministry? They don't sound like any Quakers I ever knew.

I've always thought of Quakers as being the Zen aspect of Christianity. Living a hard discipline which placed considerable demands on the individual. These folks you describe seem to be taking all the easy options that Friends traditionally turned away from.

Recall when Fox was turned out of the church by the priest at Firbank he went up on the fells and preached there instead and drew the faithful to him. Not much "Waiting in Humility" in his make-up, rather more of "Trampling the contrary under"

Maybe you should sing Sidney Carters "George Fox" very loudly from time to time with heavy emphasis on the words. Or find another meeting or move to the UK ( we have some good folk clubs over here too :-) )

I think you are right about Guildford. And you would be welcome at our meeting any time

Thy Good Friend, AWM

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: InOBU
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 09:04 AM

Hi Wandering Minstrel
I've been to meeting in Wiltshire and if I remember - decades ago, Gildford? (Gildford is the walled city where Charles the 1st was defeated isn't it, it is early in the morning and I am fuzzy headed... must have been Gildford... hmmmm) - well, both meeting were very much more like the NYC 16th street meeting than the now 80% programmed meetings, which look to me to be indistinguishable from Southern Baptist meetings, ministers - choirs, fundamentalists.
As to silence, I think it is much more important than most of what is said in meeting. I have only spoken 3 times in over 40 years, and once - two weeks ago it got me into a big tussle with some fundamentalists when I offered testimony on the meaning of the apostle's not recognising the risen Christ, until he revealed himself. I said that I felt this meant we are to look for God outside our tribe, in the worship of Buddhists, of Muslims, to see Christ where we would not expect to recognise Christ, as his closest friends did not recognise him in his risen form. BOY! Did I get it from a "Born again" friend who said the Bible says NOTHING about BUDDHA!
Oh well, it is better than the days when we used to get whipped and hanged here in New York by the Dutch for our testimony!
But, well perhaps in reminds me to wait in humility, something as most people here can see, is a real challenge to me!
Hope to find myself at your meeting in Berkshire or you here,
Your Friend and friend, Larry

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 05:32 PM

Thanks Alex, as you can see, I have sorted the problem with a missing *.dll file.

Penny

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 05:29 PM

And this about Nixon and Whittier. Interestingly discussing a biography by one whose name would not have occurred to me as an upholder of the truth.

Nixon

Penny

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 05:27 PM

http://www.quaker.org/

Alex

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 05:12 PM

I quite like this site. everything that is and is not Quaker.

http://www.quaker.org/

Sorry, I haven't linked it - for some reason I can't view source, so can't do my usual cut and paste job or copy by hand.

Penny

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 12:39 PM

Here's a link to the library at Friends House in London .

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 12:28 PM

Inobu,

My Meeting is Maidenhead in Berkshire ( when I go which is rarely these days), Before that Jesus Lane in Cambridge and before that Newcastle/Tyne all in the UK. I suspect that the English quakers are rather less diverse than the US Quakers. I understand the point about the non-violent intervention aspect and have also had to insert myself "passively" into conflicts.

Even in the best of meetings there are a few folk that are hard to get along with and sometimes the state of quaker tolerance just sucks in the weirdos. This is where the strength of silent worship comes in. The Wittier meeting sounds odd to me. How can you be a Quaker yet dismiss one of the main foundational precepts?

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: InOBU
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 10:27 PM

Actually, and sadly Nixon was not a lapsed Quaker, but a member of the Wittier meeting, which I understand, does not accept the Friends Peace testimony. I hear that there is a meeting house with places built to accommodate the secret service from Nixon's day, I forget if I heard that on Mudcat or at meeting in the past few weeks, - Cheers, Larry
PS Carol, certainly feel free to drop me a note.

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: sophocleese
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 06:45 PM

He was a lapsed Quaker, McGrath. And we leave it at that.

There's a small place a little over an hour's drive from here calles Sharon Temple. I've seen the outside of it but haven't yet had a chance to visit the inside. Apparently it has some really lovely acoustics and was built with music and mathematics in mind. It was built by a breakaway sect of Quakers who felt that music was important. The sect has died away but the temple remains for concerts and enjoyment.

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 04:27 PM

Of course there was also Richard Nixon... but he wasn't what you'd call typical.

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 03:37 PM

Thanks Larry. I hope I have an opportunity to do that some day. It sounds like it would be a very healing experience for me. May I send you a PM and tell you about one of my experiences and get your perspective on it?

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: InOBU
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 02:26 PM

Hi Carol:
I completly understand, and again empathise with the pain you felt. If you are ever in New York, I will introduce you to a few Friends who I KNOW can give you a few laughs at all of our expences and I hope can help to mitigate the pain you feel. Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: Haruo
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 04:12 AM

In Seattle the Quakers are the football etc. teams of Franklin High School, which I imagine got their nickname (which is potentially just as irritating as "Chiefs", etc.) from the mistaken notion that since Pennsylvania was founded by Quakers (or at least, by a Quaker) and Benjamin Franklin came to fame in Philadelphia, he must have been Quaker NOT! Anyhow, I don't think the Quakers are particularly pacifistic on the football gridiron, and on top of all that it's a public school so how come my tax dollars go to support the Quakers, eh? Etc.

Liland
Who said he was going to bed eons ago

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 02:31 AM

This is an interesting situation for me. On the other thread, I related the fact that I have emotional scars resulting from my experiences with the people in the meeting to which I used to belong. One of the things I still have to work out relating to that experience is the feeling of being invalidated and disenfranchised. I know that I'm responsible for my feelings, and this is work that I have to do on myself.

I see that several people in this thread have had experiences that are very different from mine. I think that's wonderful. And the fact that this question would even come up for me is probably an indication of hypersensitivity on my part. But I do hope that those who have had only positive experiences would not attempt to invalidate the feelings of those who have had a different sort of experience. I'm guessing that no one has done that, and I just have more healing to do than I thought.

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 02:03 AM

(continued from Preceding Post)

"The America's Cup" Highway" is not limited access, you can cross at Long Wharf, Elm St and Poplar St.This is pretty much due to the wealthy Quaker families of Washington St, Ackman, Benson, McCleod, Gordon, Covell and Reynolds who put a lot of effort into seeing that the rest of the City would have access to their neighborhood, private beaches and piers, much to the surprise of the real estate developers who almost completely destroyed the genuine 18th century waterfront (not a replica, but, the real thing) of this remarkable city. These are the descendants of the people who obtained the "Rights of Englishmen" for the Spanish and Portugese Jews who settled in our City, and who they liked and admired so much. I could go on and on, but I think you get the point.

The Quakers, who can make fun of themselves, have a saying, "The Quakers came here to do good and did very well, indeed"

"QUAKE, WHEN YOU ARE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD"

Jody Gibson, formerly, Joseph Paul Katzberg, descendant of Jews and Catholics, who is Episcopalian.

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 01:43 AM

Wwll, let's see. Here's a few more names to add to the list of Quakers that I personally know, like, and,or admire.
Capt Robert Douglas. Square Rig "Super Sailor" owner and commander of "Shenandoah", Square Tops'l Schooner. I've been led to believe that he is "The" Douglas, head of the clan. One of the finest people I've ever met. Then there's Richard "Dickey" Grovesener. World class artist, in my opinion, in the same class as Rembrandt. Looks like anything but what he is. Very Generous with his gifts of art to places like the Newport Hoispital, and such. Built an ultra-light airplane and used to fly around the shore area lkookinbg like the "Wicked Witch of the West" until he piled it up, thus ending his flying career. Joy Hill Radcliffe, Jack's ex wife. Mother is a PHD Nurse, head of the nursing Dept at Salve Regina University. Her Father is also a Phd. Ned Reynolds, All around "Good Guy". Joya Hoyt, Katey Hoyt.Then there's John Nickolas Brown, founder of Brown University ( don't know him) The Fact is I know a lot of old fmily Quakers and have never met one that I didn't like. Qsuite a few Quaker families live or have lived on Washington St. Waterfront with a few private piers. The Benson Family, for instance. Washington St. is on the "right" side of the railroad tracks And were madder than Hell when the Real estate developers were going to put a limited access highway parallel to the tracks, thereby isolating Washinton St, second St. and third St. from the "wrong" side of the tracks. They did not want their children growing up in an exdclusive, "Well to Do" environment. It would also, virtually excluded the kids from "The other side of the tracks" from using their Private beaches and Piers, a practice that they strongly encouraged. You will notice, if you ever drive through Newport, RI, that "The America's Cup" Highway is

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 01:11 AM

Sure, it starts platonic. It always starts platonic. But it doesn't always stay there.

dirty mind, I admit it,
Alex

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: InOBU
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 08:06 PM

Hi Alex:
It is really quite true, as far as sick... well, I never thought of in which ways he prefered horses... but now that you mention it, well, I wont say anything about the mind of the beholder, but I! (he said with emphasis)presumed it was all platonic! Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 07:19 PM

Larry, that's sick.

Cranky Yankee, thanks for that neat story.

Frankly I'm not sure I've ever met any Friends. Well, let me take that back. I once went to a RUS singalong at a Meeting House, and some of the people there appeared to be related to the House in ways other than just the singalong. They certainly seemed like fine folks. Sang good, too.

Alex

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: InOBU
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 06:25 PM

Dean Swift (one of my little Anglo Irish tribe) prefered Horses... Larry

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 04:06 PM

But humans tend to be the best sorts of people to hang around with, most of the time.

I'm not sure I'd go that far, so long as there are cats. But human beings can be ok. Some of my best friends are humans.

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 11:54 PM

continued from preceding post, (AOL was about to knock me off line)

so many of you have seen, and who teaches Black And White Photography at Yale, and who took the more recent photograph on my CD lable and cover. Jack Radcliffe, Mrs. B.,, Taff Roberts, Brook Roberts, who told me, "Cutting the medium is only a conditioned response, Most anyone can learn wood or stone cutting. The hard part is knowing where to put the letters". . Ron Ackman, Norrie Hoyt, his son "Wimby" a world class water colorist etc. etc. all of them are decendants of the quakers who petitioned the King on behalf of the Spanish-Portugese Jew.

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 11:39 PM

MOUSETHIEF:

Actually the Quaker Meeting house (still in use) and the Tuoro Synagogue (still in use) are two blocks apart. The Sephardic Jews , fleeing the inquisition in Spain and Portugal, settled in Newport, RI. and founded the abovementioned synagogue./ The Quakers, who were here first, liked them so much that they Petitioned the King to grant them the same rights as Englishmen. The King did, and, this small congregation, headed by Judah Tuoro, were the first "Non English" people to be granted these rights. As you drive into Newport for the first time (From the Bridge) you'll be going down "Farewell St." Look to your right and ttake note of how many gravestones are written in Hebrew.

I know a lot of Quakers, and I've liked every one of them I'd met. This long list includes, John Everett "Fud" Benson, the finest calligrapher-stonecutter the world has ever seen. He designed and built both Kennedy Memorials, The Martin Luther King Memorial (the one with the water flowing over it) and the Franklin D. Roosevelt Memorial (just completed. It's a pretty safe bet that Fud also designed the "Fonts" in your computer. Anyway, I too am a calligrapher, woodcutter and fledgeling stonecutter. Fud saw something in a funny sign I'd made for my Wife, Donna, "Department of Redundancy Dept." This "something, which I fail to see, said that I had a knack for letters, and encouraged me to do more woodcutting of letters. He taught me everything I know about making hand cut, solid hardwood signs, Every now and then, when I get to feeling, "Gee Gibson, you're a real artist, I take my latest piece of work to Fud and ask him to critisize it, which he does. This humbles me enough to where I no longer fit into the "Great Category" upon which I resume my sign making. The last time I did this I asked Fud, "How could I ever repay your generosity and tutelage". His reply was"Them that deserves it gets it free. Them that don't deserve it aint got enough money to buy it". Typical Quaker sentiments. I'm going to send the Mudcat a photograph of my recent venture intop stonecutting. It's in Japanese and Roman lettering. Fud's also one helluva fiddle player (which is how I met him)

To continue the list, His son Nicholas, who now runs the "John Stevens Shop", the oldest craft-art shop in the Western Hemisphere that has been in operation since it's beginnings. His Brother Richard "Chip" Benson who is responsible for the restoration of pretty much all the Abe Lincoln Deguerrotypes so

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: Marion
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 11:13 PM

Larry, I've heard Sara and Kamila (though I must admit I don't have any lasting impressions of their music, just of the cool photography on the CD cover). When I lived in Nova Scotia, my roommate knew them and had their CD.

Marion

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 08:26 PM

Since I have been quoted in the opening post to this thread, and for the benefit of anyone who has not read the thread from which my words were quoted... I related my experience with one particular group of people, and I was very careful in a subsequent post to state that I did not have any idea whether or not my experience was representative of anything in the larger context.

In fact, my whole point in my original post to that thread is that you can't generalize about anyone, even Quakers.

Here is a link to that thread...

African mudcatters? Am I alone?

Larry, I think it's probably a shame that I didn't know you when I was having my 'misadventures among Friends'.

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 08:23 PM

In all fairness Mrzzy, we really should have you say a few things about Africa, to ballence the scales on the other thread creap! Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 07:55 PM

Yes, Jim and Larry, that's precisely my point: the thread began with some comments about the fallibility of some Quaker groups; in my experience I've never belonged to a group of humans that didn't have its imperfections. But humans tend to be the best sorts of people to hang around with, most of the time. Gotta love 'em!

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 05:00 PM

I guess what I remember about the little Quaker teachings I picked up as a child, I like. My grandfather had The Inner Light, big time. The Quaker meeting house across from Mom's does gay "weddings" when no other "church" will. They do a lot of memorial services for AIDS deaths, by virtue (and I do mean virtue) of basically refusing to be prejudiced about anything. I also understand them to consider violence Not An Option, with which I heartily agree (in a perfect world). But even if there aren't a lot of quaker jokes, the quakes (as we called them) we knew had a sense of humor. I remember at my grandmother's memorial service, an old lady was talking about some picture of my great-grandfather that had hung in some college president's office and then vanished, and she was trying to get my Uncle Greg to chase it down. She described it as "very Quaker: deadly dull" and the whole congregation laughed. But nobody, not even my father, ever brought any god into any of it. It was more Do Right Because It's The Right Thing To Do, than Do Right Because I/God/some priest/... Said So.

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 04:55 PM

True story Alex. three of us were having a conversation the other day, and one said, Well, it's like Jesus said about saving the best wine for last, and I said, well, it was a fellow at banquet making the comment, and the third said, well, Jesus was telling the story wasn't he? I said I didn't think so, then said, "Well, this is a sort of joke an Evangelical Christian might tell, - how many Quakers does it take to quote the Bible?"
You KNOW what I mean, respond with passive - non-violent means, be passive aggressive? I don't know... Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 02:50 PM

Here is the link to the post with the words of John Ball

Actually that's a mixup, because the song I meant to link to was Sydney Carter's George Fox. Similar, but poor old Father John Ball got executed for his part in the Peasants Revolt, and George Fox died old and respected. And I sang them both in the Hertford Friend's Meeting Houise, and I sometimes get them mixed up.

And here is a link to a thread with George Fox, who was a Friend, unlike John Ball, who was a Catholic priest.

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 02:41 PM

I was going to stick a link to Sydney Carter's John Ball on the DT - but it's not there because of hassles with the publishers (not Sydney Carter's fault).

But there's always another way - and here is a link to a post I did some time back with the words of the song. Which I last sang in what I think is the oldest Friends' Meeting House in the world, in Hertford in Hertfordshire), where they had a folk evening. P>

One of the things Friends are best at is dealing with ructions in any kind of meeting by calling for a few moments of silence. In a way we've got that built into the Mudcat communication structure. It's one of the things that helps stop us going too far over the edge at times.

Andy another thing I like about them is the way it seems to be quite possible to be a Buddhist or a Catholic or a Jew and still be a Quaker.

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 02:17 PM

How does one "passively respond"?

My one and only quaker joke, which I don't think is insulting or anything (correct me if I'm wrong):

Quaker meeting house moved in next door to a well-established synagogue. Slowly, one by one, over several months, synagogue members started going over to the Quaker meeting house to check it out. Many never came back to the synagogue! The rabbi was starting to get concerned, so one Sunday he went over there to see what was going on. He sat quietly for a while, then when there was a chance, he spoke up.

"I'm concerned that some members of my congregation have ceased coming to synagogue since you moved here."

There was silence for a while. Then one of the quakers said, "I think maybe you're prejudiced against Quakers."

The rabbi thought about this, and replied, "No, that's not true. Why, some of my best Jews are Friends!"

(rim shot)

Alex

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 01:44 PM

Hey JIM!
Have I got a meeting for you!!! Friday nights at 16th Street and Rutherford Place, NYC, The Friends meeting has... now get this... a Buddhist Friends meeting! Animaterra, humans are humans, some societies try to accommodate outsiders more than others, but, it is always a struggle. The idea of a creedless community struggling with outsider dynamics takes on a bit of an ironic twist, but, hell we are after all, humans, and humans, to a great degree, suck.
Larry (trying hard not to, but human after all)

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 01:25 PM

If I were forced to choose a religious denomination, it would be Quaker. (I could almost be a Buddhist, but I can't take reincarnation seriously.) I've never formally become a member, but I was a serious attender for several years. My wife and I were married under the care of the Twin Cities Friends' Meeting, St. Paul, Minnesota, in 1985. Our wedding was undoubtedly the deepest single spiritual experience of my life. Our hand-lettered marriage certificate, signed by all those present, hangs in our dining room.

In recent years, though, we have both become backsliders. Except for a recent memorial service, I haven't attended a meeting in nearly a year. But I'm glad to know the meeting is there if I need it. If the U.S. is ever again threatened, or threatening, to be in a war, I will be back there in a minute.

Animaterra: I don't know if there is a society without violence, contentiousness, judgmentalism, etc., but it seems to me that the Tibetans come closest to that ideal. I would be a whole-hearted follower of the Dalai Lama, except that, as I said, I can't literally believe in reincarnation.

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 12:23 PM

I've been visiting a local Friends worship group for over two years, after many years of feeling "spiritually homeless". I still don't really get a lot of what the Religious Society of Friends is about, particularly in Meetings other than New England. But I do know that the small group that gathers in my town each Sunday is a group of truly sincere seekers who welcome all who come, unconditionally.
And somebody please, if there's a religion or denomination or organized group of humanoids anywhere that doesn't have its share of contention, disagreement, failure to live up to ideals, judgementalism, and imperfections- please tell me!

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 11:29 AM

PPS For a small minority faith, there are sure a lot of us on Mudcat, eh? I supose it is the folkie traditions among Friends... Larry Anyone hear Sara and Kamila? Great Quaker folk band... from Nova Scotia. Check them out at http://www.sarakamila.com ! Say hi from me when you do. - Larry

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 11:27 AM

Hi Wandering Minstrel:
Your mention of knee capping hits the complexity on the head. Personaly, I find it problematic in a world where super powers exert unprovoked violent attacks of people, use deadly force, and while I acknowledge that violent defence seldom works in the long term, as we see in Sinn Fein selling out much of the civil rights program which led to the present mess, in the aftermath of war, it all reminds me of one of the elders of our meeting here in New York, the late Peter Fingestchion (forgive me Peter for the spelling of your name, and rest in peace old pal). Peter intervened violently, to stop a violent mugging on a subway platform where imminent death to a young lady was a present possibility. See, Peter felt his passive beliefs were not worth the young lady's life, and he had no non-violent options. He did not give up his belief in the peace testimony, as some meetings, like the Wittier (Richard Nixon's meeting) have done.
So, I continue to struggle through out my life with a balance between my belief and conviction in passivism and the right to expect help from weaker folks who are in immediate danger. In keeping with Quaker honesty, I can't say I would not use violence in the case that Peter did. Of course one would hope to try to use peaceful means, but in the face of a lunatic's attack with a train coming, it is only one complexity of the peace testimony. By the way that sort of honesty in the face of such a dilemma would have defeated an objection to serving in the Army during the VietNam draft, so this odd country of ours holds killing strangers in their own land on the par with interceding in a mugging... Beats me!
All the best
Larry
PS Wandering, which meeting are you a member of? I expect it is an unprogramed meeting, we are now a VERY small minority, I understand 80% are programed!

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 10:41 AM

I am a birhright Quaker. Thats to say I was born to Quaker parents. I have to ask Inobu where he finds complexity in the testimony? "We utterly deny all outward wars, or strife or fighting..." seems very simple to me.

A Friend of my meeting went out to Ireland to work with the quaker mission there some years ago. It was partly thanks to his efforts that the IRA agreed to "kneecap" instead of execute their enemies. possibly not a perfect solution but at least in the spirit of Quaker compromise.

It does not really matter what others think we represent or where they place us in the ecumenical heirarchy as it is our intent to see that of God within them despite all the barriers they put in our way.

Nice one IanC!

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 07:41 AM

Hi Ian:
The fair price story was always told to us, when kids, ,by Anna Curtis, who wrote a book, Stories of the Underground Railroad, of stories told to her by the generation who smuggled slaves out of the US to Canada. She was ANCIENT, when we were young, but we felt we touched those days through her. She was the one who made us comfortable using plan speech, maybe the last generation to (as Muzzy notes) say Thee but not Thou.
I still feel a compulsion, I seldom give in too, when having a disagreement with Friends, to lapse into Anna "Friend, Thee ....." as she did when wanting you to know she was VERY much in earnest.
She told us of a story when friends first came to Pennsylvania... There was a war party of Native who burst into a meeting. The Friends smiled at them and waved them to empty seats. The Natives watched them sit in silence for quiet a while then got up and placed a white feather over the door, a sign that this was a sacred place. Anna would wait a moment and add, "of course the Algonquins worshiped crazy people, so, between Thee and Me, we aren't sure WHAT they meant!"
Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: IanC
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 06:05 AM

More in the nature of a Quaker joke!

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: IanC
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 05:35 AM

no

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: Ringer
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 05:32 AM

Is that "fiends" a Freudian slip, Ian?

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: IanC
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 04:44 AM

I joined the Society of Friends in Belfast. I was impressed by the acceptance of Quakers by all the different layers and parts of society there. I later discovered that, in part, this was due to their relief efforts during the Potato Famine and in part due to the continuing work of Irish Quakers.

Quaker Oats, by the way, is the last vestige of a common fraudulent practise of calling products "Quaker" to imply good value (apparently, Quakers introduced "fair prices" for goods, before which there was haggling).

Peace, Fiends!
Ian

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 11:44 PM

"Quaker Puffed Wheat & Quaker Puffed Rice.....kapoweee! "....(sound of echoing gunshot)

"It's shot from guns!"

...old radio commercial

Now there's an interesting anachronism...

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: Melani
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 11:26 PM

My only real experience with Quakers was with the one who taught me to play guitar when I was 13, God bless her!

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 10:51 PM

Hi Sophocles!
Funny about the conference! I was thinking about inviting Friends who feel isolated because they are Christian and feel the rest of us are going to hell, to meet a few times a month and find common ground to prevent schisms, and promote a more peaceful silence in out worship. I see some of them really up tight at meeting, that shouldn't be. Hell, if we can't create a sense of commonality in the face of conflicting beliefs, how can we help end war, eh? Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: sophocleese
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 10:14 PM

Interesting rant InOBU. My mother became a Quaker from convincement when I was a little girl so I was brought up learning some Quaker principals. I am member of a Quaker meeting now but haven't been to one in ages. I don't go to our local one because it has been bullied and run by an ignorant selfish bitch and I got tired of fighting it, I didn't have a peer group.

My experience of Canadian Quakers is that they can be wonderful, nasty and silly. A lot of them actually do things about injustice and world peace and it was their activism in place of proselytizing that I appreciated. They go through periods of silly schisms, Gay Quakers versus Plain Quakers a couple of centuries ago, and now Christocentric versus Universalist. A lovely example of silliness was a proposed conference to discuss this latest split but in order to attend the conference you had to say you were Christocentric. OOps.

Geez there seems to be a lot I could say about my experience of Quakers but I'll quit now.

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 09:38 PM

Want a recipe? I have one I made up called Southwest Quiche; cheddar, green chile, yum!

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 09:34 PM

Thanks Sorcha! I could never have done that on my own! - Larry

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 09:29 PM

Quiche===keech===cheese(mostly)pie

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 09:27 PM

GEE Great minds think in unison! We both posted at the same time Carol! Same thing on our minds, eh? Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 09:26 PM

Nope, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Shintoists, Agnostics, Antagonists, all fair game today! Funny enough, a number of sects don't consider Quakers to BE Christians, which pisses off Evangelical Quakers, who don't consider the rest of us to be Christian... or Quakers (There is a minority of Evangelical Quakers in our meeting... though they make up the majority today, a sort of creeping change... ) AND just like real men don't eat (HOW the hell do you spell the egg thing that rhymes with Sheesh? and begins with a K sound?) well, real Quakers don't make Oats! In fact, Quaker oats, in the late fifties or early sixties tried a Popeye the Quakerman who ate Quaker Oats than beat up Brutus... shortest living commercial, lots of angry Quakers passively responding... end of commercial...
Where is Spaw when you need him?
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 09:21 PM

Not all Quakers consider themselves to be Christians. And there are some denominations of Protestants who don't consider Quakers to be Christians.

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 09:15 PM

It must be Let's Talk About Christians week.

~S~

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: MMario
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 08:58 PM

one branch of my family is Quaker. As far as I can tell they come in all types sizes and temperments - just like the rest of the human race.

Subject: RE: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 08:48 PM

Quaker makes oats......

Subject: Creeping Friends, Quaker Creeps?
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 08:44 PM

Well let's see in answer to Murzzy's mention of his Quaker parents, Carol mentioned her misadventures among Friends, to which, my observations of my parent's trouble in our meeting led to... a fellow catter saying
"(somehow, the idea of a militant Quaker writing political songs leaves me a bit bemused)
To which I replied...
"Not to go fully overboard on thread creep, but, what makes you believe I am a militant? Personally, well, my relationship to the Quaker peace testimony is complex, but I suppose my position that the IRA is not a terrorist organization is the origin of that belief. My stand on the IRA is a matter of law, not conviction, and I, especially at this time in my life, am fairly sure I myself would not have taken up arms in Ireland, though I would not make a blanket condemnation of ONE side that did, anymore than I would condemn those who fought in Spain. I reject all fundamental statements, life is a continuing set of circumstances and decisions which are individuals responsibilities to make. As to Quaker emotional violence DON'T YOU KNOW IT!!! There are some gentle Friends - but my family were alienated from the meeting as they were artists, only I remained, because I was able to keep with a small peer group of like minded, gentle Friends. Carol, I hope you get beyond the scars I know so well... Cheers to all my sister and brother African (Irish English Asian Pacific Islander....)American mudcatters... Evangelicals as well :-) Larry "Bloodaxe the Horrible" Otway
To which Brother Charlie noble stated his opinion that the thread creep was self-centered... when in came Carol who said... something... like Oh I forget... then Carlie came back...
"You may be right, Carol. However, the discussion of "militant" seems very self-centered and egotistical to me and maybe I should have been more specific. But this is my last post to this thread."
SO!!! As to not creep the previous thread... for those who are still on a Quaker sort of rant, or discussion or what ever!.... here goes...