Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 08:31 AM

Can't really help there, CapriUni. It wasn't a tune I recognised, but then there are very few from that period which I would. Relying on the programme notes, I assume the one they used at the Globe had its origins in Italy or Spain.

I agree that the song fits the plot so neatly that it's more likely to have been tailormade than off the peg.

I wonder if anyone has done a serious study of the tunes used, down the years, for Shakespeare's songs? For my part its an aspect of the plays I'd never thought about much until this thread and the Globe's Much Ado. I can't remember any other Shakespeare production I've seen where the programme included essays on the songs and music.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: CapriUni
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 10:54 AM

Peter -- you did a wonderful job describing the music in the production you saw the other night... but what about the "featured" song -- the one that Balthazar sings when Don Pedro, Leonato and Claudio first "bait" Benedick into falling in love with Beatrice?

(since the players didn't have their characters' names embroidered on the backs of their costumes, I'll cut and paste the lines):

BALTHASAR
Note this before my notes;
There's not a note of mine that's worth the noting.

DON PEDRO
Why, these are very crotchets that he speaks;
Note, notes, forsooth, and nothing.

Air

BENEDICK
Now, divine air! now is his soul ravished! Is it
not strange that sheeps' guts should hale souls out
of men's bodies? Well, a horn for my money, when
all's done.

The Song

BALTHASAR
Sigh no more, ladies, sigh no more,
Men were deceivers ever,
One foot in sea and one on shore,
To one thing constant never:
Then sigh not so, but let them go,
And be you blithe and bonny,
Converting all your sounds of woe
Into Hey nonny, nonny.
Sing no more ditties, sing no moe,
Of dumps so dull and heavy;
The fraud of men was ever so,
Since summer first was leafy:
Then sigh not so, & c.

DON PEDRO
By my troth, a good song.

BALTHASAR
And an ill singer, my lord.

DON PEDRO
Ha, no, no, faith; thou singest well enough for a shift.
---
(Boy, talk about a left-handed compliment!) ;-P

Btw, in his film verison, Kenneth Branauh made this the "theme song" of the play -- having Beatrice (Emma Thompsom) recite the lines during the opening sequence, and having the entire cast sing it as a finale.

It's my gut feeling that this is a song that Shakespeare wrote specifically for the play. Not exactly sure why I think that, except maybe its slightly irreverent, satirical take on romance (kinda reminds me of the twentieth century t-shirt slogan: "A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle."), and how neatly it dovetails into Beatrice's attitude toward marriage. It's a good "bait" song for Benedick, too, since if he overheard a song praising love and romance, he'd get his defenses up. But he's such a contrarian at heart, his instinct is to disprove any "common knowledge" -- if "they" say that men are untrue, than he'll be true.

If this is a lyric penned by Shakespeare, I fear it would be much harder to find the 'original' tune that goes with it...

But nonetheless, I wonder: does anyone out there know of an early tune this song was sung to?

How's that for a Mudcat challenge?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: CapriUni
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 01:21 PM

That is great, Sorch! Much Ado is one of my very favorite plays (I even named my cat Beatrice after the heroine in that play).

Frankly, I think Beatrice and Benedick are a much more romantic couple than Romeo and Juliet, because it's clear that they've known each other a long time, and have grown to respect each other (even if they do tease each other mercilessly in the beginning), whereas with Romeo and Juliet, I get the feeling that most of the excitement of their love affair is in doing something their parents forbid.

And it says something that the actors were so good that they outdid the storm!

Huzzah for the theater!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: White tiger
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 01:04 PM

White Ticger/ sorch here went with my dad ( Peter K Fionn) a few days ago to see much ado about nothing.
It was brill even though I got absolutly soaked by the rain as we were in Shakespeare's globe. ( I was a groundling !) I'll probably see some of you at Warwick anyway!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: CapriUni
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 12:25 PM

Peter --

I am so glad you enjoyed the production (and that you weren't struck by lightning)!

As for the diffeculties Shakespeare himself faced... well, all plays were held during the daylight hours and scenes taking place in dim settings (such as the Capulets' family tomb) generally happened toward the end, when the stage was in shadow.

Shakespeare's players didn't have to compete with airplanes flying overhead, but did have to compete with a bear-baiting pit just down the road. As for the patience of his audiences... not so much. There are contemporary references to the groundlings heckling the actors and spitting orange seeds at them (venders would go through the audience selling oranges as refreshment). It was an event -- not unlike a football match, I imagine. And people then, as now, revel in the energy of being together at events like this.

Also, his audiences didn't have the multi-million dollar/pound movies to compare his productions to, the way we do. And all of the language would be familiar. And in the common parlance of the day, the term was "to go hear a play" rather than see a play.

--
So -- how did your daughter like the production?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 08:49 AM

Duly saw the all-women Much Ado last night as a groundling in the open-air promenade arena at the Globe. The audience braved a veritable tempest of a night - a cold lashing wind, torrential downpour, thunder and lightening. The cast seemed to have no difficulty holding the audience's attention however, and merely raised their voices a few notches to be heard over the elements.

Being in the tow of my 12-year-old daughter I was somewhat relieved that the inuendo-laden punning I had been warned about in this thread was not overplayed! (Programme notes noted "noting" as the Elizabethan pronunciation of "nothing" and observed that this opened the way for various allusions. But the only one mentioned was the allusion to musical notation, this being something of a minor theme throughout the text. No mention of "noting" as a euphemism for nooky.)

Serious attention was paid to the songs and music. Most of the music (all of it on authentic period instruments (shawm, tabor, sackbut, recorder, etc) was from Italian sources, with one or two Spanish traditional tunes thrown in (as Messina had been under Spanish occupation).

CapriUni, the song "Pardon goddess of the night" was taken by all the cast and they followed what the programme notes described as a "calling voice" tradition still heard nowadays in many Mediterranean cultures. Quite punchy for religious song - a bit like the pub carol-singing in south Yorkshire.

As for the all-women cast.... It turns out that during the Restoration, there was some attempt to establish all-women companies in retaliation for the all-men companies that had hitherto prevailed. Reviving this at the Globe certainly gave the women plenty of opportunity to enjoy the various jokes at mens' expense. I need not have been concerned about it adding confusion to an already complicated plot. The costumes (Elizabethan, obviously) had been superbly designed, and the gender of the players was just not a factor. (Likewise with skin colour, showing with hindsight how ridiculous was all the nervousness about staging Othello in past years.) I still think it would help if the players had their names embroidered on their shirts. This has certainly been successful in football.

In fact the rough-and-ready feel of the whole production, the inclement weather and the hopeless impracticalities of the Globe itself gave the whole experience something of the feel of a school play. It brought home how tolerant and good-natured Elizabethan audiences must have been, and how far they were willing to suspend disbelief, in their determination to be entertained. Amazing that such literary riches should have been born out of such simple stuff.

In short, anyone interested in Shakespeare should try to catch at least one production at the Globe. On last night's showing, it isn't remotely touristy in the way I had expected, and you do leave with a real sense of where and how all this began.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: CapriUni
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 02:21 PM

Greg--

I looked up When That I Was a Little Tiny Boy just now, in the DT, and in the notes there, it said the words and tune date back to circa 1550...

Seeing as Shakespeare was born in 1564, I think, based on this info, at least, it's safe to say he did not write the song... Assuming, of course, that the information in the DT is correct.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: CapriUni
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 07:42 PM

This might be held to suggest that there was an older song with the same refrains, that Shakespeare wrote two separate versions of.

Indeed, or that, perhaps the whole song was older, and Shakespeare just modified the lyrics a little bit to fit the scene the song appeared in...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 05:06 PM

CapriUni:
I dont know if there is any evidence as to whether "When that I was a little tiny boy" is a Shakespeare original or not. But an interesting fact is that there is a song that uses the same format in King Lear:
"He that hath a little tiny wit
With a heigh ho the wind and the rain
Must make content with his fortunes fit
For the rain it raineth every day"

This might be held to suggest that there was an older song with the same refrains, that Shakespeare wrote two separate versions of.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: CapriUni
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 04:31 PM

Hmmm... That cross-gartered fool wouldn't happen to have been wearing yellow garters, would he, inspired to do so, perhaps, by a carefully planted counterfeit letter?

If I'm correct in this (and I trust I am, as that scene is one of my favorites), I should probably take the oportunity to point out that at least two of the songs Shakespeare used in that play are in the DT...

Another hint/question: As far as I can recall, this is the only play of his in which the epilogue is sung. Am I correct in that?

And another question: Is this epilogue original to Shakespeare, or did he adapt a popular song? Does anyone know?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 01:57 AM

As I remember it the passage (pardon!) from Hamlet goes...

"Madam, shall I lie in your lap? I mean, my head upon your lap? What? Did you think I meant country matters?"

Puns were considered highly at the period - it required intellect to handle the creation and interpretation of them. Later on, it became fashionable to say "Puns are the lowest form of wit".

I remember participating in the staging of play where the buffoons were inciting their cowardly mate to fight a duel with an equally cowardly cross-gartered fool (pick the play!) and both characters were trying to fight the duel while staying as far away from each other as possible... (in case they got hurt!) :-)

The Bard is not to be read, but acted on a stage... Hence the inspiration for many of The Fooles Troupe Routines I wrote - they look dead on paper, but once you get on your feet, they become very visual, and hilarious!

Robin

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: CapriUni
Date: 05 Jul 04 - 10:45 PM

Robin --

the word "Nothing" was current slang for.... um, er, to quote Hamlet, "Country Matters".... :-)

Heh. I like it! (Hey! what were you two doing out behind the barn, last night? ... Oh... Nothing!) Yeah, I think we should that back... ;-)

Also, back in those days "Nothing" was pronounced very much like "Noting" -- or, in other words, listening and eavesdropping. And (I don't think I'm spoilering too much, here) nearly every twist of the plot (and subplot) depends on the careful orchastration of who overhears whom say what...

Also, the woman eulogized in the song I cited above is named "Hero" or "Her O," 'O' being current slang for ... erm... the part of a woman's body men generally make much ado about...

That Will was a great one for puns. I can easily imagine a dinner conversation with him being punctuated by much groaning and rolling of eyes.   He would have fit right in on the 'Cat.

On a more serious note, and bringing this thread back to the starting subject, there is also a key scene in the play that involves the challenge of a duel -- and one that is much more serious than over the cut of a gentleman's beard.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 03:21 PM

Though women did get on the stage... by pretending to be men. Or sometimes by pretending to be men who were pretending to be women. Or even... by pretending to be men who were pretending to be women who were pretending to be men.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 10:08 AM

Peter K,

In Elizabethan times, women were not allowed to act on stage. Thus, the acting company would be all male. The director seems to turning this around, perhaps to make a point.

See the movie "Shakespeare in Love". Any elevation of the sonnet is not a bad thing...(BG)

8-{E

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 09:59 AM

Nope, my daughter's usually ahead of me on these things, Foolestroupe. I still don't see why it justifies an all-female cast.

Capri, my cynicism was only towards the Globe's somewhat lofty explanations of its strange departures. I haven't seen how they're packaging this one. But only three days to go now, so I'll let you know....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 05:48 AM

Oh Dear! Much Ado About Nothing...
Peter K,
The whole point of the show (and as an adult you should get this, but your young daughter may just still be too young) is that the word "Nothing" was current slang for.... um, er, to quote Hamlet, "Country Matters".... :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: CapriUni
Date: 03 Jul 04 - 07:46 PM

but the cynic in me wonders whether prosaic factors like cast availability might sometimes be more pressing reasons.

Why be cynical about it, Peter? After all, in his day, Shakespeare was a theater man, and had to put on productions in the real world, as well. He, too, had to worry about concerns of cast availability, and which actors had the skills to play which parts.

He, of course, had the luxury of working with/leading an ensemble cast of players... the same actors over many years, and got to know them well, and they, him. His was really the first era of English drama that created the concept of "stars" of the theater...

In any case, it's how well you adapt artistic vision to prosaic concerns that make art "high art".

And good for you and your daughter for exploring Shakespeare via the stage... that is how his work was meant to be experienced -- not hunched over a book, squinting at the glosses in the margins, trying to understand what these funny words mean.

It was when I was studying Shakespeare (if my memory serves me well) at age 16 or thereabouts that my English teacher (Don Fried) said something I've never forgotten:

"Reading a play is like looking at the blueprints of a house. Seeing a play is like walking through the rooms."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Jul 04 - 07:16 PM

Capri, normally we do a summer visit to Regent's Park, but this year we're trying the Globe, as it was "Shakespeare in Love" that caught my daughter's imagination when whe was 9. (She's now 12 and will have chalked up six out of 37 by the end of July.)

I want the Globe to be a roaring success, and as a tourist attraction it certainly is. The building is a stupendous achievement. But they've done some really weird things, allegedly for artistic integrity, but the cynic in me wonders whether prosaic factors like cast availability might sometimes be more pressing reasons.

I'm wandering off-topic a bit, but for anyone interested the Globe website has some highly effective panoramas of the theatre. Go to theatre > box office > virtual tour then use your mouse to rotate and elevate the views.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: CapriUni
Date: 03 Jul 04 - 04:15 PM

Well, Romeo and Juliet, like many of Shakespeare's plays, was the adaptation of a widely popular novel... so he wasn't just spoofing his own work,

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 04 - 03:03 PM

Since the plays would have had single sex casts at the time, there's a case for saying that an all female cast is in a way more in keeping with tradition than the mixed cast we are accustomed to.

Pyramus and Thisbe - I've always rather thought this was Shakespeare having a joke at his own Romeo and Juliet, which has essentially the same plot.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: CapriUni
Date: 03 Jul 04 - 12:37 PM

Peter --

This production has an all-woman cast, the significance of which is so far lost on me.

Oh, dear... it sounds like the director is trying to be too-clever-by-half, attempting to make Shakespeare "edgy and up to date" ...

I don't want to second guess the director's judgement, though, without actually seeing the play.

"Much Ado" is one of my all-time favorites, and is one of Shakespeare's best crafted plays. It's also unique in that it is written entirely (or nearly so) in prose, rather than his usual practice of giving iambic pentameter to the nobility, and prose to the commoners.

I hope you and your daughter have a wonderful evening, and come away as enchanted with the play as I am...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Jul 04 - 07:47 AM

Belatedly noted, CapriUni! I'll listen out for that, when my daughter and I see Much Ado at the Globe. I don't know the play at all. (Also don't know what to expect from the Globe, which has had "mixed" reviews for some of its efforts, to say the least. This production has an all-woman cast, the significance of which is so far lost on me.)

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: CapriUni
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 11:54 AM

"Whoop, Do Me No Harm, Good Man" is an actual Renaissance tune [. . .] I haven't found any lyrics for it yet though.

Amos -- that's great!

Of course, rereading these lines:

"...and where some stretch-mouthed rascal would,
as it were, mean mischief and break a foul gap into
the matter, he makes the maid to answer 'Whoop, do me
no harm, good man;' puts him off, slights him, with
'Whoop, do me no harm, good man.'"

early in the day, well rested and awake, I think I'd misread them before. I think now, that the ballad-seller is being presented as something of an arranger -- inserting new lines into the songs for the young women to sing to interupt the men who're apt to make rude jokes. ...

But as fascinating as this is, we're quite a bit a way from the topic of Chivalry in Shakespeare...

Maybe I'll start a new thread for music and singing in Shakespeare...

M.Ted:

What a noble and worthwhile process! May your skill lead you to success, and Murphy's Law not trip you up too many times!

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 11:51 AM

(Strikes head) Of course, the most famous and saddest of them all: Desdemona's willow song (the song originally her maid Barbary's).


yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 11:44 AM

Interesting to think about the question of songs given to the nobility in Shakespeare. It does not seem quite so clearcut as that they are virtually never given songs -- Viola, supposedly considering wooing Olivia, is prepared to sing to her. Of course there is also the famous crux, where Cesario is asked to sing, and Curio replies that Feste/Clown is not here to sing it (the critical assumption I suppose is that that sometimes there was a Cesario who could sing).

The most famous example, I suppose that proves the general rule of few songs to the nobility normally, are Ophelia's mad songs.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 01:59 AM

Seventeen minutes! And for something that at least seemed like a long term challenge--Good on you, Amos!--

CapriUni--I was interested in the seven stages for a similar reason--I am putting together some material that may be used in a program that teaches people how to deal with potentially violent, abusive, and potentially assaultive situations--

The fools and clowns then as now, are often the best parts, the characters and the actors that play them are generally most favored by the audiences--so of course, they'd get the musical numbers-

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 12:31 AM

"Whoop, Do Me No Harm, Good Man" is an actual Renaissance tune, of which a midi can be found by clicking here. I haven't found any lyrics fo r it yet though.

A

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: CapriUni
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 12:14 AM

M. Ted... in response to your opening question in this thread, I revisited that very passage on the seven stages of a quarrel when I was looking for something to post in my journal to celebrate the bard's birth/deathday. I latched on to the lines just before the ones you quoted above, because they remind me of online flamewars... some things never change.

JAQUES
But, for the seventh cause; how did you find the
quarrel on the seventh cause?

TOUCHSTONE
Upon a lie seven times removed:--bear your body more
seeming, Audrey:--as thus, sir. I did dislike the
cut of a certain courtier's beard: he sent me word,
if I said his beard was not cut well, he was in the
mind it was: this is called the Retort Courteous.
If I sent him word again 'it was not well cut,' he
would send me word, he cut it to please himself:
this is called the Quip Modest. If again 'it was
not well cut,' he disabled my judgment: this is
called the Reply Churlish. If again 'it was not
well cut,' he would answer, I spake not true: this
is called the Reproof Valiant. If again 'it was not
well cut,' he would say I lied: this is called the
Counter-cheque Quarrelsome: and so to the Lie
Circumstantial and the Lie Direct.

JAQUES
And how oft did you say his beard was not well cut?

TOUCHSTONE
I durst go no further than the Lie Circumstantial,
nor he durst not give me the Lie Direct; and so we
measured swords and parted.

* * *

Peter K -- One instance I can think of where a song was given to a member of the nobility (and very likely a song that Shakespeare himself composed, as it is in the play as newly written for the occasion), is this song from Much Ado about Nothing (Act 5, scene 3), which Claudio sings at Hero's family crypt:

Pardon, goddess of the night,
Those that slew thy virgin knight;
For the which, with songs of woe,
Round about her tomb they go.
Midnight, assist our moan;
Help us to sigh and groan,
Heavily, heavily:
Graves, yawn and yield your dead,
Till death be uttered,
Heavily, heavily.

* * *

One fabulously musical scene in Shakespeare is Act 4, scene 4 of A Winter's Tale. Here, we are witness to a shepherd's feast, and one of the comic characters arrives disguised as a pedlar to sell trinkets and ballad broadsides to the assembled guests.   Here is his introduction:

Servant
O master, if you did but hear the pedlar at the
door, you would never dance again after a tabour and
pipe; no, the bagpipe could not move you: he sings
several tunes faster than you'll tell money; he
utters them as he had eaten ballads and all men's
ears grew to his tunes.

Clown
He could never come better; he shall come in. I
love a ballad but even too well, if it be doleful
matter merrily set down, or a very pleasant thing
indeed and sung lamentably.

Servant
He hath songs for man or woman, of all sizes; no
milliner can so fit his customers with gloves: he
has the prettiest love-songs for maids; so without
bawdry, which is strange; with such delicate
burthens of dildos and fadings, 'jump her and thump
her;' and where some stretch-mouthed rascal would,
as it were, mean mischief and break a foul gap into
the matter, he makes the maid to answer 'Whoop, do me
no harm, good man;' puts him off, slights him, with
'Whoop, do me no harm, good man.'

(okay, now there's a Mudcat challenge: can anyone here find the song with the refrain: "Whoop, do me no harm, good man"?

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 08:03 PM

Sorry, you're right, Peter T. M.Ted, another point of interest is that songs were hardly ever (never?) given to the boss classes - always fools, servants and the like. There must be exceptions, but none come to mind.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 11:42 AM

When I say "interpolated", I doesn't mean that they were inserted later--it means that at the time they were produced, existing songs and other performance pieces were put into the play as a vehicle for certain performers--this was, is and has been a common practice in the theater--

In Shakespeare, think of the many instances where the main character encounters a fool and the story line basically stops while the character sets him up for witty rejoinders--

It is likely that these routines were expanded, condensed, or even replaced from performance to performance--it is also likely that well known performers interpolated the routines that they were best known for into a whatever play they happened to be in, in the fashion of Abbott and Costello's famous "Who's on First" routine--

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 08:18 AM

Just to correct, it is not true that all Elizabethan play texts were based on performance texts. Ben Jonson's plays were famously edited from the author's text -- it was part of Jonson's claim to being a serious author -- and it is usually agreed that the First Folio of Shakespeare was in part edited from the author's text -- that explains some of the discrepancies between Folio and Quartos.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 05:46 AM

We're really getting into Malcolm Douglas territory here, but I think it's a safe bet that some of the songs were created by Shakespeare (assuming he also created the plays, which for my money he did); some he borrowed, and some were put in later.

Lear, Hamlet and Othello are the best endowed with song, and some of the verses in these are thought to be original. However snatches of folksong are ascribed to Ophelia and Edgar as a means of indicating madness (which must prove something!). And I believe Desdemona's Willow Song was a known song of the period, with words and music still extant.

I believe the Pyramus/Tisbe interlude in Midsummer Night's Dream is a parody of a genre that had been around for many years, and "Oh mistress mine" in Twelfth Night predates the play I think. Sometimes a song is intentionally borrowed, as with the drinking song in Antony & Cleopatra, "Come though monarch of the vine...." which was well known before the play.

The norm for songs in Elizabethan plays was that they would be sung to pre-existing well-known tunes. Whether Shakespeare ever indicated such tunes I don't know.

Part of the difficulty is that the publication of Elizabethan plays, Shakespeare's included, was not based on anthors' texts but on performance. Thus the first Quarto edition (1611? I may be wrong on that) of Hamlet was sourced from actors' memories and prompt notes. By the time it appeared in the first "collected works" - the Folio edition of 1623 - there were significant differences in structure and text. Or sometimes the text would be similar, but ascribed to different characters (eg the gravedigging scene).

On top of all this, the Puritans then gained the whip-hand in England, and entertainment of every sort was knocked on the head. When Dryden and others later took advantage of the Restoration to rescue Shakespeare, they also took ever increasing liberties with the known texts, and even the plots. This trend culminated in Nathaniel Tait's Lear, from which the Fool, now regarded as one of the four main characters - was excised altogether. The trend was only reversed by scholarship in the 19th and 20th centuries.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 02:49 AM

MTed: interested in what you say about many Shakespeare songs having been interpolated. Could you give some examples? Say, in any standard text of Hamlet there are a considerable number of songs(or fragments of songs). Are you saying some of these are not in the the earliest versions of the play?

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 10:47 PM

Many of the songs that appear in Shakespeare,(and much other material) were interpolated--

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 09:46 PM

MT:

Thank you so muche for researching that lyste and posting it hereto. I have founde much therein to faulte myselfe bye and thus seeke Improvement, for which instruction I am duly grateful, and in Your Debte.

With best regards,

A

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 06:22 PM

The Shakespeare originals we dont know for sure what musicthey used: though people wrote down the tunes being used in theatres a hundred years later, and they may be the "right" tunes. But some songs in Shakespeare plays can be found in contemporaary publications as well, so we do know those tunes. I had a very nice edition of Hamlet once, with copious footnotes on the tunes used for the songs, in the 17th and 18th century theatre.Not sure where that books gone.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 05:31 PM

Yes, that was my understanding Greg - ie he wrote dozens of songs, but if he ever had any specific music in mind, he left no clues to it.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 05:09 PM

Fionn: I meant the many songs in the play, for many of which we know the contemporary tunes. I dont know if any feature in the DT, I'll have to have a look.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 04:41 PM

Shakespeare on singers and singing:

First Page
Shall we clap into't roundly, without hawking or
spitting or saying we are hoarse, which are the only
prologues to a bad voice?
                                        —As You Like It, Act 5, scene iii

Benedick [Aside]
An he had been a dog that should have howled thus,
they would have hanged him;
and I pray God his bad voice bode no mischief.
I had as lief have heard the night-raven,
come what plague could have come after it.
                                        —Much Ado About Nothing, Act 2, scene iii

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 02:26 PM

I'd rather allure unto me chefflie the eyes of the people wyth wittie poesies and pleasant divises..

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 01:58 PM

Whose music ae you talking about, Greg?

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 01:37 PM

Mted: I think you should definitely renn at bull a bit, it will certainly delyte the commune people withall.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 12:58 PM

This is a handy bit of advice, as well:

Not to folowe his own fansie, or alter the expresse wordes in any point of his commission from hys Prince or Lorde, onlesse he be assured that the profit will be more, in case it have good successe, then the damage, if it succeade yll.

For myself, I am indifferent well on most of the points, but must confess I've lost my knack for Jogo di Canne, and never cared to "ren at bull" at all--

As to your comments on Hamlet, a close reading finds many contractions and inconsistencies--in many ways, it is reads like the text to a traditional ballad that has past through many hands--

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 09:03 AM

What do you find particularly nasty about Hamlet, Alanabit? He's a bit of a witterer. not very nice to Ophelia (but how many of us can claim to have been wonderful in all our relationships?). I think calling him the villain is pitching it a bit strong.
   I think Shakespeare himself found Hamlet extremely confusing. The character seems to twist and turn a lot. Even the elemntary fact of his age is notoriously tricky to pin down. There is plenty in the text to put him in his late teens, and also in his thirties. And to justify, explain or condone some of his actions, it would be nice to have a clearer idea of which he was, upset youth or mature man. I reckon Shakespeare cobbled the play together from two(at least) attempts to make a coherent play out of the story.
    It is a great play,no doubt his most famous, and rightly so. But directors alway cut it viciously in one direction or another, because it doesnt make sense as a whole (and it's way too long).
    And incidentally, it's got some stunning music(remembering we are on Mudcat). And I would recommend anyone, right now, to read Hamlet right through, if you havent recently. You'll be stunned, particularly by how many of the lines are totally familiar. As someone said once "Hamlet is all quotes".

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 08:46 AM

I heard a good description of Polonius as being a pedant. He is one of those guys who can say all the right words but do all the wrong things. It is what the characters do that is important. Goneril, Regan, Mark Antony and Richard III all have a good line in fine words. They are not the sort of people I would want for friends though. I have always thought of Hamlet as a nasty piece of work - probably the least pleasant of all Shakespeare's villains.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 04:04 AM

Of all the bits of advice on good behaviour for courtiers, posted by MTed earlier, I think the best is the instruction not to wrestle or play various other games with the common people, unless you are sure of winning!

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 04:00 AM

Some of you may like to note these links:

Matty's 'Works of the Bard'

The actual first website to carry the complete works. You can access the plays only scene by scene, but the site does have a search engine which is a bit hit-and-miss, but usually dependable.

The MIT Complete Works

This claims to be the first website to carry the lot. No search engine last time I checked, but searchable on a play-by-play basis via Find >>> Edit. (Click on the play you want, then select "view entire play as single page.") You can also go straight to any scene, as at Matty's site.

Mr William Shakespeare

Loads of interesting stuff, links to info about the various editions, etc, etc. Absorbing site.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 02:43 AM

OK MTed: I think I've mastered that list, where do I apply for a courtier's job?

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 01:15 AM

Polonius gives altogether too much advice, all of it of the common sort--here is something from Hoby(who agreed obviously agreed with Polonius on the value of brevity):
A BREEF REHERSALL OF

THE CHIEFE CONDITIONS AND QUALITIES

IN A COURTIER


• TO be well borne and of a good stocke.
• To be of a meane stature, rather with the least then to high, and well made to his propotion.
• To be portly and amiable in countenance unto whoso beehouldeth him.
• Not to be womanish in his sayinges or doinges.
• Not to praise himself unshamefully and out of reason.
• Not to crake and boast of his actes and good qualities.
• To shon Affectation or curiosity above al thing in al things.
• To do his feates with a slight, as though they were rather naturally in him, then learned with studye: and use a Reckelesness to cover art, without minding greatly what he hath in hand, to a mans seeminge.
• Not to carie about tales and triflinge newis.
• Not to be overseene in speaking wordes otherwhile that may offende where he ment it not.
• Not to be stubborne, wilful nor full of contention: nor to contrary and overthwart men after a spiteful sort.
• Not to be a babbler, brauler, or chatter, nor lavish of his tunge.
• Not to be given to vanitie and lightnesse, not to have a fantasticall head.
• No lyer.
• No fonde flatterer.
• To be well spoken and faire languaged.
• To be wise and well seene in discourses upon states.
• To have a judgement to frame himself to the maners of the Countrey where ever he commeth.
• To be able to alleage good, and probable reasons upon everie matter.
• To be seen in tunges, and specially in Italian, French, and Spanish.
• To direct all thinges to a goode ende.
• To procure where ever he goeth that men may first conceive a good opinion of him before he commeth there.
• To felowship him self for the most part with men of the best sort and of most estimation, and with his equalles, so he be also beloved of his inferiours.
• To play for his pastime at Dice and Cardes, not wholye for monies sake, nor fume and chafe in his losse.
• To be meanly seene in the play at Chestes, and not overcounninge.
• To be pleasantlie disposed in commune matters and in good companie.
• To speake and write the language that is most in use emonge the commune people, without inventing new woordes, inckhorn tearmes or straunge phrases, and such as be growen out of use by long time.
• To be handesome and clenly in his apparaile.
• To make his garmentes after the facion of the most, and those to be black, or of some darkish and sad colour, not garish.
• To gete him an especiall and hartye friend to companye withall.
• Not to be ill tunged, especiallie against his betters.
• Not to use any fonde saucinesse or presumption.
• To be no envious or malitious person.
• To be an honest, a faire condicioned man, and of an upright conscience.
• To have the vertues of the minde, as justice, manlinesse, wisdome, temperance, staidenesse, noble courage, sober-moode, etc.
• To be more then indifferentlye well seene in learninge, in the Latin and Greeke tunges.
• Not to be rash, nor perswade hymselfe to knowe the thing that he knoweth not.
• To confesse his ignorance, whan he seeth time and place therto, in suche qualities as he knoweth him selfe to have no maner skill in.
• To be brought to show his feates and qualities at the desire and request of others, and not rashlye presse to it of himself.
• To speake alwaies of matters likely, least he be counted a lyer in reporting of wonders and straunge miracles.
• To have the feate of drawing and peincting.
• To daunce well without over nimble footinges or to busie trickes.
• To singe well upon the booke.
• To play upon the Lute, and singe to it with the ditty.
• To play upon the Vyole, and all other instrumentes with freates.
• To delite and refresh the hearers mindes in being pleasant, feat conceited, and a meerie talker, applyed to time and place.
• Not to use sluttish and Ruffianlike pranckes with anye man.
• Not to beecome a jester of scoffer to put anye man out of countenance.
• To consider whom he doth taunt and where: for he ought not to mocke poore seelie soules, nor men of authoritie, nor commune ribaldes and persons given to mischeef, which deserve punishment.


• To be skilfull in all kynd of marciall feates both on horsbacke and a foote, and well practised in them: whiche is his cheef profession, though his understandinge be the lesse in all other thinges.


• To play well at fense upon all kinde of weapons.
• To be nimble and quicke at the play at tenise.
• To hunt and hauke.
• To ride and manege wel his horse.
• To be a good horsman for every saddle.

Sildome in open syght of the people but privilye with himselfe alone, or emonge hys friendes and familiers.
• To swimme well.
• To leape wel.
• To renn well.
• To vaute well.
• To wrastle well.
• To cast the stone well.
• To cast the barr well.


• To renn well at tilt, and at ring.
• To tourney.
These thinges in open syght to delyte the commune people withall.
• To fight at Barriers.
• To kepe a passage or streict.
• To play at Jogo di Canne.
• To renn at Bull.
• To fling a Speare or Dart.


• Not to renn, wrastle, leape, nor cast the stone or barr with men of the Countrey, except he be sure to gete the victorie.
• To sett out himself in feates of chivalrie in open showes well provided of horse and harness, well trapped, and armed, so that he may showe himselfe nymeble on horsbacke.
• Never to be of the last that appeere in the listes at justes, or in any open showes.
• To have in triumphes comelie armour, bases, scarfes, trappinges, liveries, and such other thinges of sightlie and meerie coulours, and rich to beehoulde, wyth wittie poesies and pleasant divises, to allure unto him chefflie the eyes of the people.
• To disguise himself in maskerie eyther on horsbacke or a foote, and to take the shape upon hym that shall be contrarie to the feate that he mindeth to worke.
• To undertake his bould feates and couragious enterprises in warr, out of companye and in the sight of the most noble personages in the campe, and (if it be possible) beefore his Princis eyes.
• Not to hasarde himself in forraginge and spoiling or in enterprises of great daunger and small estimation, though he be sure to gaine by it.
• Not to waite upon or serve a wycked and naughtye person.
• Not to seeke to come up by any naughtie or subtill practise.
• Not to commit any mischevous or wicked fact at the wil and commaundesment of his Lord or Prince.
• Not to folowe his own fansie, or alter the expresse wordes in any point of his commission from hys Prince or Lorde, onlesse he be assured that the profit will be more, in case it have good successe, then the damage, if it succeade yll.
• To use evermore toward his Prince or L. the respect that beecommeth the servaunt toward his maister.
• To endevour himself to love, please and obey his Prince in honestye.
• Not to covett to presse into the Chambre or other secrete part where his Prince is withdrawen at any time.
• Never to be sad, melancho[l]ie or solemn beefore hys Prince.
• Sildome or never to sue to hys Lorde for anye thing for himself.
• His suite to be honest and reasonable whan he suyth for others.
• To reason of pleasaunt and meerie matters whan he is withdrawen with him into private and secrete places alwayes doinge him to understande the truth without dissimulation or flatterie.
• Not to love promotions so, that a man shoulde thinke he coulde not live without them, nor unshamefastlye to begg any office.
• Not to presse to his Prince where ever he be, to hould him with a vaine tale, that others should thinke him in favor with him.
• To consyder well what it is that he doeth or speaketh, where in presence of whom, what time, why, his age, his profession, the ende, and the meanes.


• The final end of a Courtier, where to al his good condicions and honest qualities tende, is to beecome an Instructer and Teacher of his Prince or Lorde, inclininge him to vertuous practises: and to be francke and free with him, after he is once in favour in matters touching his honour and estimation, alwayes putting him in minde to folow vertue and to flee vice, opening unto him the commodities of the one and inconveniences of the other: and to shut his eares against flatterers, whiche are the first beeginninge of self leekinge and all ignorance.


• His conversation with women to be alwayes gentle, sober, meeke, lowlie, modest, serviceable, comelie, merie, not bitinge or sclaundering with jestes, nippes, frumpes, or railinges, the honesty of any.
• His love towarde women, not to be sensuall or fleshlie, but honest and godly, and more ruled with reason, then appetyte: and to love better the beawtye of the minde, then of the bodie.
• Not to withdrawe his maistresse good will from his felowlover with revilinge or railinge at him, but with vertuous deedes, and honest condicions, and with deserving more then he, at her handes for honest affections sake.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 11:59 PM

Mr. Stevens:

The adivce of Polonius is good and sound and a good mark of Elizabethian Chivalry and Courtesy.

However, Polonius is a dottering old hyporcrite - sending messengers to go spy on his son's behavior.....(his accidental death ... needs to be deemed waranted - for the dramitc irony - and relationship with the audience.) and lending support to Hamelt's role as the hero.

Sincerely,

Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 08:02 PM

Romeo and Tybalt did not duel. They fought. A duel is much more formal and is a prearranged meeting, generally on an isolated ground. The Capulets and the Montagues were in the middle of a low grade interfamily war. For an illustrative example, see West Side Story, based on Romeo and Juliet.

Saw the Central Park "Much Ado about Nothing" at the Delacorte Theater last week. Strongly recommend. The play was well staged and the only technical glitches were when the batteries went sour on the body mikes, making them cut in and out. Why they could not do quick changes on them, I do not know, as in both cases, it was relatively early in the show.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 07:02 PM

Gargoyle, I find that Polonius speech a bit strange. Generally in the play Shakespeare seems to take the piss out of Polonius as a pompous old fart. So, is Shakespeare satirisng this advice, as being laughably old fashioned? because it actually seems perfectly sound advice.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 06:47 PM

Well done folks!

I believed it might have fallen (obviously NOT) into HAMLET

When Polonius gives chivalrous advice to his son before sending him off to school.

Yet here, Laertes? Aboard, aboard, for shame!
The wind sits in the shoulder of your sail,
And you are stay'd for. There- my blessing with thee!
And these few precepts in thy memory
Look thou character. Give thy thoughts no tongue, Nor any unproportion'd thought his act.
Be thou familiar, but by no means vulgar:
Those friends thou hast, and their adoption tried,
Grapple them unto thy soul with hoops of steel;
But do not dull thy palm with entertainment
Of each new-hatch'd, unfledg'd comrade. Beware
Of entrance to a quarrel; but being in,
Bear't that th' opposed may beware of thee.
Give every man thine ear, but few thy voice;
Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment.
Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man,
And they in France of the best rank and station
Are most select and generous, chief in that.
Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.
This above all- to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell. My blessing season this in thee!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 05:24 PM

I enjoyed that.....anything else about Shakespeare?

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 05:24 PM

This passage is also excellent advice for the right way to negotiate disagreements that arise in the course of threads on the Mudcat. Indeed there is "Much virtue in 'If'" in these circumstances.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: Peter T.
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:49 PM

And do not forget Walter Raleigh's poem on the subject, "The Lie".

(Which plays shew courtesy? Certainly Love's Labour Lost, but I have always regarded Troilus and Cressida as the most interesting -- the graceful treatment of the Trojans in the Greek camp is contrasted with the unspeakable cynicism of the rest of the play.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:39 PM

Delighted to be of service, M Ted. When you are contemplating the size of your annual donation to Max, recall that your obscure Shakespearean query was answered in 2 minutes, on a folk forum. (I didnt need a computer, I got your allusion, because in my misspent youth I once played Amiens(the one who sings a lot of songs) in "As you like it" in an open air production in Stratford-on-Avon. And why I remembered the lines is because I played a very naughty prank on the actor playing Touchstone, during that very speech, at a matinee performance.(When a certain amount of naughtiness is traditionally allowed).

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:12 PM

Greg: Yes, this is it!

For your quick and kind attention to the point, one must needs recognize that you are a Gentleman, and for the fact that you have revealed so quickly what I sought in vain, your scholarship ever should be praised--

I had thought that it was somewhere in "Love's Labour Lost" at first, then culled through the Henry plays. Despairing on Shakespeare, I thought that it might be mentioned elsewhere in literature, and ended up parsing "THE COURTYER OF COUNT BALDESSAR CASTILIO"
(as translated by Sir Thomas Hoby), which had been partly responsible for the introduction of effront-based dueling into Elizabethan society--This, of course can be found by the curious or the perilously idle on-line, as can the Works Attributed to Shakespeare, from whence the following was culled--


TOUCHSTONE:

O sir, we quarrel in print, by the book; as you have
books for good manners: I will name you the degrees.
The first, the Retort Courteous; the second, the
Quip Modest; the third, the Reply Churlish; the
fourth, the Reproof Valiant; the fifth, the
Countercheque Quarrelsome; the sixth, the Lie with
Circumstance; the seventh, the Lie Direct. All
these you may avoid but the Lie Direct; and you may
avoid that too, with an If. I knew when seven
justices could not take up a quarrel, but when the
parties were met themselves, one of them thought but
of an If, as, 'If you said so, then I said so;' and
they shook hands and swore brothers. Your If is the
only peacemaker; much virtue in If.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 02:26 PM

I can't be bothered to look it up at the moment, but I know that Richard II starts with a planned duel between Aumerle (I think) and Bolingbrooke. If Greg hasn't cracked it for you already, you might try having a look in there. There must be loads of other duels in Shakespeare, but they don't all spring to mind at the moment. Jeannie is probably the one for this. She knows about that stuff.
Romeo duels with Tybalt in Romeo and Juliet. I can't remember whether an actual duel breaks out between Proteus and Valentine in Two Gentlemen of Verona... (The soppy gits kiss and make up anyway - not enough bloodletting for my tastes...) Hamlet duels with Laertes and muffs it, of course.... You have got me going. I'll probably be awake all night thinking about this now!

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 02:03 PM

I've had a look in my trusty "Complete Works", always on hand by the eating table in order to settle arguments.. I am not 100% sure it is the passage you are talking about, but "As you like it" Act 5 scene 4 has Touchstone discussing the seven degrees of insults in a dispute. Can't do any kind of clickie,sorry. Have a look and see if that's the passage you are remembering.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 01:53 PM

I think it might be Touchstone in "As you like it". I havent had a look yet, but you've intrigued me. I will have a browse.

Subject: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 01:51 PM

Help! I am trying to find terminology that I read somewhere in Shakespeare that refer to the different degrees of courtly response to insults--the first being    to ignore, the next being to laugh it off, then disagree congenially, then to take offense, on down to slapping the offender,and to dueling to the death.--I culled through all the places that I thought were likely--but haven't come up with anything--any assistance will be greatly appreciated!

---

I think this belongs in the Folklore category.
-Joe Offer-