Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: Nerd
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 01:47 PM

open mike,

also, the claims by groups like llan de Cubel are another thing. Sort of secondarily inspired by Galicia's success in marketing itself as tourist destination based on its "Celticness," several other regions of Spain have been trying the same thing, Asturias (or Asturies in the native, supposedly "Celtic" tongue) being the most prominent. As Adlopho points out above, Cantabria has been making the same claim lately.

But heed Adolpho's words, for he knows whereof he speaks:

Celticness as such is moving a lot of money, and Galicia is very aware of that, the same as Asturias, Cantabria and some other Spanish areas. People there are no more Celtic than people from the rest of Spain, there's no trace of a possible Celtic language and, as a person who has travelled up and down the miles of Galicia, and walked the Way to Santiago de Compostela several times, people there are exactly the same as the ones you can meet anywhere in the Peninsula.

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: Nerd
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 01:39 PM

GUEST,

Just because something "seems obvious to you" doen't make it true. First of all, you have your dates wrong. In the 60s the Chieftains were not in nappies; the band was founded in 1963. Other Irish revival bands, such as the Dubliners, were successful even earlier. And the precursor to the Chieftains, Sean O Riada's Ceoltiori Cualann, had been active since the 50s.

I'm sure you know this already, GUEST, but what was going on in many places in Europe in the 60s, and to a greater extent the 70s, was a rediscovery of folk music based initially on what was happening in Ireland. I have talked to bands from as far apart as Madrid and Helsinki, and they both said "of course it was the 70s, so we were all playing Irish music." After this, most of the regions of Europe realized that they could apply the same principles to their own music, so you got bands like Gunnfjauns Kapell in Sweden and La Musgana in Spain, Malicorne and Melusine in France, La Ciapa Rusa in Italy, etc., playing their own folk music, but using principles of arrangement derived from or inspired by the Irish revival; and most of these bands were made up of people who had previously played in "Celtic" bands. Milladoiro falls into this category.

Many peoples all over Eurasia are attracted to the romance of the "Celtic" label. I once interviewed a Turkish musician who said, "of course, Turkish music is just Celtic music. The Turks are Proto-Celtic." In the 1950s, many groups were claiming Celtic heritage. A few regions, notably Galicia, decided that they would simply claim to BE Celtic as a mark of regional identity and a marketing device; in this they were inspired by the example of Brittany in France. But again, the Galicians are no more Celtic than anyone in (say) Paris, which had a Celtic language and culture more recently.

This is not to say that they are "not Celtic at all," whatever that might mean. Clearly, like Parisians (whose state-sponsored history textbooks used to begin "nos ancestres les Gauloises..."), Galicians are descended from Celtic peoples among others. But the culture did not survive the years of domination by other groups. Gallego is mutually comprehensible with Portuguese, not Irish.

open mike, what you say about Brittany is correct. They are Celtic in the most important and verifiable sense: they have a living Celtic language. They are descended primarily from a colony of British Celts (hence the name) who went there in the 5th and 6th century. The rest of the French are descended from some combination of Gauls (a Celtic group), Franks (A Germanic group), Normans (A Scandinavian group), etc, etc. This is why in both my posts I said as Celtic as Paris, not as Celtic as France!

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 12:22 PM

Well spotted John, seeing her name is Marta Jiminez-Luis and she is from Spain, that would explain all.

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: GUEST,John Hindsill (who has not reset his cookie)
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 09:46 AM

When I saw Riverdance, one of the dances was very much a Flamenco, danced by a dark-haired,almost Spanish-looking dancer. I wondered then if this was a tradition going back to the Spanish Armada. Maybe?

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 07:09 AM

Friend I can help you here, dab a wee drop of germolene under your oxters, them bliddy stait-jackets can give you hell.

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 06:30 PM

to a blind man a wink is no use at all, but a nudge might be noticed..

There are scientific studies which show the vast extent of the Celtic network in Eurasia...so the wee hop over to Grumpynahnah land is not that hard to understand; but, on reading the history of the afterwards, I don't think the original people would want to bother again with such a buch of negative welli wearing sheepsh.....ers, who drink tea, warm beer, go on strike, go on strike, go on strike, eat pig guts, and play with their socks!

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 02:38 PM

Good on you Learai na Laibe for bringing a wee bit of commonsense into this thread.
My US relations often came up with this clap-trap about Spanish blood in their veins and they would constantly refer to the "black Irish" a term never ever used in Ireland.
Another thread on this subject also brought this rubbish up about the survivors from the Armada, Google on to "Ireland graveyard of the Spanish Armada. by TP Kilfeather, for information on the poor wretches that had the bad luck to make it on to a western beach and then meet with a horrible death from the Irish inhabitants.

The only recorded survivor to make his way back to Spain was a Captain Cuellar, as I told my US relations the black looks may have been inherited from the survivors of the Middle Passage, not entirely met with approval.

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: open mike
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 01:34 PM

well i know the Celtic culture was active in france and spain as well as ireland and elsewhere...in france especially in Brittania (Bretagne?)
and according to the band Llan de Cubel in Asturias
http://www.angelfire.com/nj/xjoyx/llan.html
http://www.lanuevaespana.es/multimedia/musica.htm
http://www.sfcelticmusic.com/spain/celtica.htm

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: Fiolar
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 09:09 AM

Fear Faire: There is at least one song regarding the Spanish Civil War (and probably lots more) with an Irish connection. It's sung by Christy Moore and is called "Viva Le Cinte Brigada".

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: mooman
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 07:29 AM

Dear GUEST,Learaí na Láibe,

With the greatest respect, perhaps you'd like to come and visit my family with your DNA kit! If not national (probably no significant impact I agree), then there were almost certainly local bloodline impacts.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: el ted
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 06:44 AM

Why do people attempt to trace everything back to "celts" and "irish" music? Having spent a lot of time in Spain, I find this "celt" linkage laughable!

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 06:28 AM

Nerd you continue to contribute utter crap to this site, so why doncha just buggar oft someplace else?

I shared an apartment in London with a Galician in the 1960s when some of the Cheiftains were still in nappies and at the time it seemed obvious to me that these people are related to the Scots/Oirish/Welsh...

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:22 AM

AFAIK the story of significant numbers of Spanish settling in Ireland following the floundering of vessels from the Armada is just a romantic myth with no historical backup. Many of the survivors were massacred by both the English and Irish in Ireland. Those that received a warmer welcome hightailed it back to Spain ASAP. If a small number did remain and intermarried with the natives it is unlikely that they would have had any significant effect on the national bloodline after 4 centuries.

As for sailors or fishermen settling in any numbers in Irish ports, where is the evidence? Where are the Spanish surnames?

The myth of the black Irish? I doubt if many Irish in Ireland have heard of this. Did it originate in the U.S. perhaps? Irish features and hair colouring vary from nordic blond to curly dark Mediterranean types, most somewhere in between.

Folk music. A great number of Irish served in British regiments during the Peninsular war in Spain in the period before Waterloo. A great many songs have come from that war including the 'Bantry Girls' Lament'. However I have never heard it suggested that the type of ballad was influenced by Spanish singing traditions, I think they just fit into the usual style popular in Britain and Ireland at the time. However I'm not a scholar and am open to correction.

Fear Faire, I found your post most informative.

I hope we're not discouraging your research Adolfo. It's definately worth looking into. Let us know how you get on.

Slán

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: GUEST,Adolfo
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 07:39 AM

Waw, that was deep indeed. Thanks again to all participants. I quite agree with Fear Faire on how difficult it would be to separate real stuff from simply accidental; however, I didn't intend to do more than a compillation, though, as you said, it would be of little use. But it would bea start, particularly if songs are divided, as you suggested, into 'simply rhyme', 'real Spain', 'Spanish leather, Spanish steed, Spanish steel', etc. And, most of all, it would be funny. Thanks for the titles as well. And , by the way, it is interesting you talk about ISidore and the EXPO, as I am from Seville myself, and writing straight from there right now!. Yes, I had the opportunity to listen to the 'Seville Suite' on the Day of Ireland at the EXPO.
Also, I absolutely agree with Nerd about the Celticness of GAlicia. Celticness as such is moving a lot of money, and Galicia is very aware of that, the same as Asturias, Cantabria and some other Spanish areas. People there are no more Celtic than people from the rest of Spain, there's no trace of a possible Celtic language and, as a person who has travelled up and down the miles of Galicia, and walked the Way to Santiago de Compostela several times, people there are exactly the same as the ones you can meet anywhere in the Peninsula.
Thanks again, and the search continues...

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: Nerd
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 12:27 AM

Oh, and to my knowledge there has been no such study.

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: Nerd
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 12:24 AM

Galicia being PURE CELTIC! is of course nonsense. Bagpipes are spread throughout Europe, in France and Germany and Holland and Sweden to name a few spots. Galicia has not had a Celtic language or culture any more recently than Paris or England, yet we don't consider THEM pure Celtic. Sure, there were once Celtic peoples in Galicia. Just like Turkey, Belgium and the Czech republic. But it's getting carried away to say the region is celtic.

Milladoiro sound the way they do not because of the innate Celticness of Galicia, but because they listened to a lot of Chieftains and Alan Stivell records in the 1970s. I am not just blowing smoke, I have asked them; I hosted a concert of theirs, and did an extensive interview which resulted in a magazine article back about ten years ago. They wisely do not overstate the Celtic influence in Galicia, saying just that it has Celtic influences, Latin influences, and most importantly, cosmopolitan influences due to the many people who come through on pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela.

By the way, mary Garvey's rather cryptic reference is to the song "The Bantry Girl's Lament," in which Johnny "goes a-thrashin' the dirty king of Spain."   

How about "I Wish the queen would call back her armies, from the West Indies, America and Spain" from "As I Roved Out."

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: Fear Faire
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 07:44 PM

I should have mentioned that an historic era which might have caused a flurry of composition and where knowledge of Irish might not be necessary for its examination, is that of the Spanish Civil War. I am not aware if there are/were songs about it in Ireland and whether these were songs of the Irish in Spain at the time or not. That might be a fruitful avenue of research - and then again...

It certainly had a marked effect on the work of the Scottish Gaelic poet Somhairle Mac Gill-Eathain, Sorley MacLean who is worth reading even in translation. And he didn't actually go!

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: Fear Faire
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 07:35 PM

The only instance in regard to which I have heard "theorising" of Spanish influence on Irish "folksong" is in relation to An Fhallaingín Mhuimhneachaín (the Munster cloak) which has been thought to display Spanish influence in its form.

You will find many references to Spain, but most of them will be trite (as you imply, for rhyme rather than reason) and of a secondary nature. Other references, although romantic, can be evidence of the Irish consciousness of Spain at certain times. The reference in Róisín Dubh would be the most prominent example there, the "allegorical interpretation" implying that Spain and the Pope will come to the aid of Róisín (Ireland according to that interpretation). Even then, the interpretation is most probably evidence of later backstorying rather than contemporary attitudes at the time of the song's composition (also in itself later than the historical period to which it is, in that interpretation, presumed to refer).

You should beware the superficial level of many references. As I grew up I was aware of Iníon Rí na Spáinne (The Daughter of the King of Spain) as a classic "damsel in distress" who was saved from danger by the Irish hero (and lived happily with him ever after) in tales told by storytellers locally. She could just as easily have been the daughter of the king of the western world or of the king of Syria who had the same role in other stories.

You should also beware the danger of interpreting references to Spain in English-language songs in Ireland as direct - many could be clichés carried over in imitation from English compositions rather than evidence of indigenous attitudes.   The same is true, but to a lesser extent, of material in Irish.

And unless you study the Irish-language material, I am afraid you will be attempting to find the influence of red and yellow on the paintwork of a green car while having only the tyres for evidence.

There would seem to be many pitfalls to the research you propose and it may be wise to consider that the lack of an existing book may be due to those issues. A compendium or compilation may be possible but what is its extrinsic worth? It could also suffer greatly in comparison to work in other areas of Hiberno-Spanish contact.

There has been a flourishing in the amount of work being carried out by academic historians and literary researchers, in both Spain and Ireland, on the intellectual contact during the late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries which was extensive. Most of the extant literary production from that contact is in prose but you could include a fairly large body of verse if you were to expand the boundaries to the production of Irish poets in the Spanish Netherlands during the seventeenth century. One poem from that milieu has been discussed here in other threads - Dia do Bheatha a Naí Ghil.   To say that there is a Spanish influence because of that tenuous connection would be stretchin things (however the author had previously spent time in Spain and had received some of his education at the University of Salamanca).

There is also some fairly recent work by economic historians on the contacts during a later period between the Irish and the fisheries along the northern coast of Spain. I don't recall any reference to song or poetry in those discussions (nor indeed any references to the contacts in Irish song or poetry).

You can go all the way back to the seventh century for real historically evidenced contact. The work of Isidore of Seville was apparently known in Ireland before other parts of Europe (as far as extant evidence shows) and his magnum opus, the Etymologiae, was known in Old Irish, fondly, as the Culmen. The Irish annals also carry reports of the arrival of Vikings on their return from Seville - 9th or 10th century according to memory - and there are some grounds for speculating that they were Irish-based Vikings.

All in all, I would think that if you have a few years to spare for research, and wish to spend them on Irish-Spanish contact, there are more viable options.

But as for the compendium (which might show that there is in fact profound material), my initial contribution is:

An Fhallaingín Mhuimhneach(aín)
Róisín Dubh.


PS

(Bill Whelan also composed a suite at the time of EXPO in Seville - 1992? It used to be available on the Tara label and some of the ideas in it were later developed and included in Riverdance - the Irish show with Flamenco and Harlem influences.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: GUEST,Armando
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 06:00 PM

The Galicia region of Spain in the North (green hills and all) is pure CELTIC (bagpipes and all).

If you listen to the music of the band MILLADOIRO, you will hear the Celtic influences (in fact, they recorded with the Chieftains a while back.

Armando!

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: GUEST,Adolfo
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 04:26 PM

Yes, thanks to all. I have already read a good deal about the Black Irish and the representation of the Spanish Armada in the Irish imagination as a new edition of the legend of Mil of Spain from The Book of Invasions.
However, what I am looking for is not the reasons for the Spanish influence on the Irish, which are many and as you have suggested, but the presence of 'Spain' in traditional songs. CAn you think of any more titles related to this matter? Or have you ever seen anything written or published about that?
Thanks again.

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: mooman
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 04:04 PM

As well as the shipwrecking of the Armada that Patriot refers to, there was a great deal of contact between ships sailing from ports such as Galway and other on the West Coast with Spanish ports. My own family (from Sligo) have a lot of Spanish blood and this is clearly visible in the complexion and features of many family members. So probably also some opportunity for references to cross in songs.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: mg
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 03:29 PM

bantry girl is said because her eyes are not as bright as the ladies the bantry lads met in Spain.

And there is a great song about troop trains leaving Barcelona...De Dannan I think...

mg

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 03:25 PM

I'm not exactly an authority on this, but I understand that a lot of ships were beached on the Irish shore during the disastrous Spanish Armada. A lot of Spanish sailors were trapped in Ireland and unable to get back to Spain, they settled in Ireland and became absorbed into the Irish population. However, maybe going as far back as the 15th Century may be going back too far.

Subject: Folklore: The Spanish-Irish Connection
From: GUEST,Adolfo
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 01:23 PM

Greetings. Some months ago I started searching for and collecting traditional, and especially Irish, songs with some reference to Spain. It's amazing there are so many. Some times they make reference to Spain, some times 'Spain' is simply a great rhyme for 'main', 'pain', etc. "Clare's Dragoon", "Spanish Ladies", "The Spanish Lady", "Banks of Claudy", or the useful "Spanish leather" in all Black Jack David/Gypsy Rover versions.
Then, an idea struck me that perhaps I was not the first one to notice this. My questions to mudcatters is that: does anybody here know of any work, book or study about the Spanish influence on Irish traditional songs? It would be shame to investigate on this for years before someone tells me there's already an encyclopaedia on the matter...
Thank you very much.

Adolfo