BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: Terry K
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 06:45 AM

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A staysail is a fore-and-aft rigged sail whose luff is affixed to a stay running forward (and most often but not always downwards) from a mast to the deck, the bowsprit or to another mast.

Most staysails are triangular, however some are four-cornered, notably some fishermans staysails.

Any triangular staysail set forward of the foremost mast is called a jib. Confusingly, the innermost jib on a cutter, schooner and many other rigs having two or more jibs is referred to simply as the staysail, and another of the jibs on such a rig is referred to simply as the jib, see jib.

On large rigs, staysails other than jibs are named according to the mast and mast section on which they are hoisted. Thus, the staysail hoisted on a stay that runs forward and downwards from the top of the mizzen topgallant mast is the mizzen topgallant staysail. If two staysails are hoisted to different points on this mast, they would be the mizzen upper topgallant staysail and the mizzen lower topgallant staysail.

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: Lady Hillary
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 04:38 PM

Yup, I'm a pedant. I even insist that my students call a staysail a staysail, not a jib. After all, a jib is only connected to the boat at its corners. They even tend to learn the difference between a staysail club and a jibboom.

EBarnacle

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: Terry K
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:55 PM

I just completed a passage on a fine barquentine (foremast square rigged, three others fore and aft), part of which was in perfect sailing conditions of heavy sea and a brisk force 7. Unusual for the Tyhrrenian Sea, but good for the soul nonetheless.

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: The Walrus
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 02:43 PM

Hi Pogo,

If you wish to add to your tale, you could always bring your craft into British waters in late July and give a mention of the Royal Navy's annual manoeuvres, if only to the extent of sighting a flotilla of torpedo boat destroyers or one (or more) of the capital ships with their escorts (a copy of "Jane's Fighting Ships" of the period would help).

Regards

Walrus

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: Pogo
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 08:57 PM

*ponders*

Well KateG I can't quite explain why it is I want to write something that takes place in that era or why it is significant to me but I do want to keep it within that time period, narrowing it down between 1900 and 1910 actually. Maybe it's the idea of starting in a new century that is appealing to me :) or the fact its a period so brief it's often overlooked, a transition stage...I don't really know. It seems to me everyone likes setting a story in the Victorian era so...I guess I want to try something different :)

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 08:08 PM

There's a new TV series of Hornblower starting soon on Australian TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: ard mhacha
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 04:49 PM

Sorry my Cookie is playing up, my post above.

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 04:45 PM

Kate G you are right when you say that Two years before the mast,is the wrong era, but I would disagree with Jim Dixon regarding the book being a bore, I throughly enjoyed Dana`s book and also the film with Alan Ladd and William Bendix.

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: KateG
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 04:16 PM

According to the brief history of Australia on the Australian government site, Aussie history
transportation of convicts ended in 1868, and the colony became part of the Commonwealth in 1901.

It seems to me that the aspects of nautical history that interest you all belong to the period 1860-1890. Why not set your story then instead of c. 1900, which is the Edwardian era (think Titanic, not Two Years Before the Mast)?

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: Pogo
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 12:52 PM

{O) I hit the jackpot with this thread. Thanks so much guys for all this wealth of information and book references and the song too! I will be doing my homework.

Considering things, a cargo ship with a few passengers appeals to me and sail and steam actually could work very well. A run from England to Australia sounds appealing...hmm.

Going off topic a bit, was Van Dieman's Land or any other prison colonies in Australia still in use at the time of the early 1900's? If so would you have cases of family members sailing to said colonies to be with those imprisoned there or is that too far a stretch?

Some more things I would like to get opinions on. Proper protocol aboard ship, standard crew member uniforms and the hierarchy from captain on down and the duties that was expected of them aboard ship. I have some research done on the titles and duties for various crew members but most of my information is from around the 1700's. So I am unsure what would have changed by this time, what would have stayed the same or what new titles and duties would have been added and what they would have been called. Thanks in advance and I'll be doing more reading to see what I can find {O)

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: kendall
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 07:46 AM

A quick check of the dictionary gives the simple most quoted definition.

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: kendall
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 07:43 AM

Sorry but the briganteen was often called a hermaphrodite brig. The reason being that it was both square rigged and fore and aft. The common names among sailors were not always accurate, and I doubt any of them were as pedantic as some of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: Lady Hillary
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 12:24 AM

Sorry, Kendall. A true brigantine would have a spencer mast but a hermaphrodite brig would not. In addition, the hermaphrodite would have a forecourse and possibly a main topsail, a brigantine would have neither of these.

Arrgh, EBarnacle

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 08:21 PM

For some delightful and light philosophical reading regarding meridians and navagation, Uberto Eco's The Island of the Day Before is a MUST. Wrapped in wispy poetic allusions it twists through three thousand years of the problems with "approximal locations on a global surface.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: KateG
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 07:34 PM

Les from Hull has it right, we folkies like our ships with sails. Unfortunately, mariners -- and ship owners -- were more interested in getting from cargo and/or passengers from point A to point B quickly, cheaply and reliably. A trans-Atlantic trip by sail could easily take 2-3 months especially when the winds and currents (think Gulf stream) were against you. As a result, the transition to steam began in the 1840's. Sail hung on for the South American and Austrailian runs because of the amount of coal needed by early steamships. Coal and cargo compete for space and the very long runs took too much coal to make the cargo profitable, especially for low value, high bulk items like grain, fertilizer, ores etc. As steam engines became more efficient, the value of sail diminished and was finally extinguished. Very sad.

If you want to put your characters on a sailing vessel, it would make more sense to push the date back 3 or 4 decades if they're going to be in the transatlantic trade. If you want to keep the 1900 date, put your characters on a coastwise schooner -- or make the vessel a small transatlantic steamship: there were lots to choose from. And for that, the archives at Ellis Island might be a good resource.

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: kendall
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 04:35 PM

Ok, another name for hermaphrodite brig is briganteen.

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 08:48 PM

Here's some more homework, authentic nautical terminology in context:

By James Jeffrey Roche, Circa 1895
From A Nonesense Anthology, pp. 120-122, 1902
Adapted by Charlie Ipcar, 1993
Tune: adapted from "Whup Jamboree"

A Sailor's Yarn

As narrated by the second mate to one of the marines

Now this is the tale 'twas told to me,
By a battered and shattered son of the sea:
To me and my messmate, Silas Green,
When I was a guileless young marine.

Em------D-Em-----D---Em------D
'Twas on the good ship Fly-ing Fish
---Em--D----Em-Bm
All in the Chi-na Seas;
---------Em-----------G-------Em-D---Em
With the wind a-lee, and the cap-stan free,
----Bm--------D-Bm
We set sail for Ca-diz,
---------Em----Bm---Em
Yes, we set sail for Ca-diz.

Said Captain Porgie on the deck
To the Mate on the mizzen hatch,
"How heads our gallant ship tonight?
Shall we wind the larboard watch?"...

The Mate drew forth his compass rose
And tapped it on the rail,
"Why, she heads to the E. S. W. by N.
In the teeth of a raging gale."...

"Then, fly aloft to the royal top yard
And reef that spanker boom,
Bend a studding sail to the martingale
To give her weather room."...

"Pray, Bosun, down in the for'ard hold,
What water do you show?"
"Four foot and a half by the royal gaff
And rather more below."...

"Then, sailors, collar your marline spikes
And roll each belaying pin;
Come, stir your stumps to spike the pumps,
Or more will be coming in."...

They stirred their stumps, they spiked the pumps,
They spliced the old main brace;
Aloft and alow they worked, but, oh!
The water gained apace...

They bored a hole beneath her line
To let the water out,
But more and more with an awful roar,
The water in did spout...

Then up spoke the Cook of our gallant ship –
And he was a lubber brave –
"I've several wives in various ports,
And me bacon I would save."...

The next to speak was our Bosun bold,
Who feared neither fish nor fog –
"'Tis dreadful to die, but 'tis worse to go dry,
And I moves we pipe to grog."...

The last to speak was our Second Mate,
Whose courage was second to none –
"Takes more than lip to save a ship,
I'll show you how 'tis done!"...

Then hoisting the anchor upon his back,
He leapt into the main;
Through foam and spray he clove his way,
And sunk and rose again...

Through foam and spray, a league away,
The anchor stout he bore,
Till safe at last, he made it fast,
And warped the ship ashore!
Yes, he warped the ship ashore!

Ay, this is the tale 'twas told to me,
By that modest and truthful son of the sea;
And I envy the life of a Second Mate,
Though captains curse him and the sailors hate;
For he ain't like some of the swabs I've seen
Who'd go and lie to a poor marine.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 06:18 PM

Someone earlier mentioned "Two Years before the Mast." I tried reading that once—I never finished it—and I found the nautical parts to be nearly unintelligible. At least, to understand them, I would have needed frequent reference to a dictionary, maybe even a specialized nautical dictionary. Maybe there exists an edition with lots of footnotes, diagrams, and other explanatory material, but that's not what I had.

This might be useful: List of sailing boat types from Wikipedia. It seems to be an index page for all sorts of information about sailing ships.

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: GUEST,Chanteyranger
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 05:51 PM

To add to KateG's post, the last two great fleets of square-rigged ships carrying cargo were the grain ships going from Europe to Australia (1938, and '39 were the last two voyages), and the salmon ships going from California to Alaska, up until the Alaska Packers Association switched to steam in 1930.

If you choose or just have time for only a few of all the books mentioned, I'll second Lancsdlad's motion for Alan Villiers and Dana, and KateG's for Chapelle. Villiers is a particularly good read.

Another account, though a modern one, is Eric Newby, The Last Grain Race. Though Newby is later than the period your covering, asnd Dana before it, both books give you great accounts of shipboard life on a square-rigger. Some things don't change that much.

Chanteyranger

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: Les from Hull
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 04:51 PM

The sailing ships from England to Australia mentioned by Charley Noble were emmigrant ships where the important word was 'cheap' and the time of journey wasn't so important. They had lots of passengers.

Ask a bunch of folkies about ships and they'll try and make it sailing ships if they can. KateG has got the right idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: Les from Hull
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 04:44 PM

A sailing ship carrying passengers in the early 1900's would certainly be well out of date. Most passengers would want to have some idea of when they would arrive! That's why steam ships became successful. In those days they were called 'liners', a word that people these days use for the huge passenger ships that sailed in the 20s and 30s. But a liner was a ship that had a regular service, carring both passengers and cargo. Mostly these ships were operated by reasonably substantial firms, attracting subsidies from Governments through mail contracts and the like.

An older ship (sail, sail and steam or steam) operated by an owner/captain would be operating as a 'tramp', picking up a cargo, taking it to an agreed destination and then trying to get another cargo there. Not a lot of use for passengers, and so no accomodation for them.

The earlier steam ships had very inefficient engines and used a vast amount of coal. It wasn't until the later compound and triple-expansion engines that fuel efficiency made longer journeys by steam more possible.

So an older ships would probably have been re-engined (it wouldn't be likely to be crossing the Atlantic with its old engines). And it may be serving ports and countries other than the major ones of the USA, UK and Canada, which would be well-served by the major lines.

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: Musique174
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 04:28 PM

I just finished a contract on a tall ship... Feel free to contact me and I am happy to answer any questions you might have in regards to termanology.

MY recommendation is that you should go and visit one of the tall ships that are around. They are easier to find than you think... Most coastal cities either have a resident tall ship, one that visits there (or a nearby port) or a maritime museum.

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: KateG
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 04:25 PM

I'm not sure a hermaphrodite brig would be suitable for young readers BG!

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: kendall
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 03:44 PM

Start by not calling her a "boat" LOL

Is she going to be a ship, a barque, a barquentine, a brig or a hermaphrodite brig?

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: KateG
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 03:37 PM

The library is your friend. Here are some books to start with:

H.I. Chapelle, History of American Sailing Ships, 1935.

F.C. Bowen, A Century of Atlantic Travel, 1830-1930, 1930.

Robert Greenhalgh Albion, The Rise of the Port of New York, 1939 -- a classic with a fantastic bibliography. Available in a 1984 paperback reprint.

The transition from sail to steam took place in the middle decades of the 1800's. Because they were not subject to the vagaries of the wind, steamships quickly took over all of the passenger and luxury cargo trade, leaving sailing ships to muddle along with bulk cargo. Outside of the fishing and coastwise trades and places like the Carribean, the only sailing ships in use in the early years of the 20th century were bulk cargo carriers that carried ores, lumber and fertilizer from Australia and South America to Europe, and training vessels, since several European countries (Germany in particular) required all merchant marine officers to have square rigger experience in order to get their licenses.

If you are able to do so, I recommend a visit to a maritime museum. Most of them have bookstores and libraries, and all of them have curators who will be happy to point you in the right direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 09:19 AM

Is it possible for you to go down to some fishing port and talk with some of the OLD sailors and fisherfolk? And don't forget more recent folk, too -- there are still tall ships out there and people who sail them.

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 09:11 AM

Your "homework" probably should include short stories by Lincoln Colcord, Cicely Fox Smith, as well as Joseph Conrad (already mentioned). Dana's book is from 1840; it's rather early for your period and its primary focus was from the perspective of a greenhorn sailor but it's certainly a great book.

You might also review the lyrics to the old forebitter "Paddy West" so as to reinforce your vocabulary as an "armchair sailor."

Some of the last sailing passenger transports made the run from England to Australia, and were not displaced by steam until the latter 19th century.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 08:17 AM

I hope you have a good editor, spelling and readability may be more important than you think.

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: yrlancslad
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 05:26 AM

I would recommend two books by the same name to give you all the background you might want. Both called The Way of a Ship, one is by Alan Villiers(pub: charles scribners sons, 1953 and1970)the other by Derek Lundy (pub:Knopf Canada 2002 and in paperback by Harper Collins in 2004)
The first subtitled as: being some account of the ultimate developmentof the ocean going square rigged vessel, and the manner of her handling, hr voyage making, her personnel, her economics, her performance and her end.
The second subtitled: A square rigger voyage in the last days of sail.
Dana's books are a little early for your purpose being set around mid 19thC although much of what he says still applied to the sailing ships of the 1900-1910 era.
Incidentally I seem to remember seeing a photo somewhere of a French windjammer captain with his new wife about to set off on their Honeymoon/voyage and seem to think he was about 30 years old.However by the first decade of the 20th C the only square riggers left were built to carry bulk cargo and space for passengers would be very limited if it existed at all. I believe all passenger ships were steam driven by this time.
Hope this helps, Tarrah thisen, Malcolm

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 04:01 AM

'2 Years Before the Mast' By Richard Henry Dana will give you lots of good technical background on working on and with sailing ships. As Amos said there is not a history of passenger carrying on any great scale, try looking at stories by someone like Josef Conrad for a bit of that side of things.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: Amos
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 12:51 AM

Family businesses often owned ships and often the captain was an employee of the business, a trusted professional but not part of the family. Other times, the captain with a successful track record would acquire a ship by forming a venture pool and being a part owner.

My impression is that sail-only vessels were still doing   trade through the 1920s but declining. Hell, a lot of local commerce on the broad waters of the Tagos is served by sail even today.

I doubt you would find a "passenger ship" in the sense of a liner under full sail, although I could be mistaken. It was cargo, and the passengers came along. Sailing vessels did not carry that many passengers, cabin space being an afterthought to the main job of moving cargo. The Euterpe, a wool clipper, carried plenty of emigrants from England to New Zealand, but always made her big money bringing wool back to the mills of England from New Zealand.

Captaincy was earned by saltwater time and experience. Keep in mind that in the hands of this single man the entire vessel and her fortunes were entrusted. The whole venture rode on his judgement especially in bad weather or tricky straits. A captain in his forties was (I would guess) lucky to get a ship so young. These are just impressions, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: Pogo
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 11:53 PM

Hotcha! I got a couple of bites {O)

Okay lessee. Bear in mind fellas I'm still working out the finer details and they may be subject to change but here goes.

Amos one of the underlining ideas I've toyed with is that it would be a ship being slowly ousted by the changing technology, the hybrids you were talking about. So we'd probably say full rigged. Were full rigged as opposed to hybrids looked down upon any at this time? Like it would equal obsolete? Or were they just accepted as part of the business?

The size...hmm. Not terribly big I would think but big enough to carry a fair number of passengers. What would be the smallest size that could still safely cross the ocean and the holding capacity of such a boat?

Rapaire: Eh *coughs and grins sheepishly* Well lessee. Countries and ports of the setting...ah. Part of the story is that things get a bit...odd right at the beginning so that may not be such a item in the story but I haven't got that far yet. The flag and country of origin...right now the three choices are pretty typical. England America and Canada. But if there are other possibilities throw them out. That's just the first three that automatically came to mind. I'd say either Atlantic waters or further up north. Nova Scotia comes to mind but I don't know if that would be feasible.

Another question...how was ownership established so far as a ship was concerned during this time? Would you have a captain that owned his own passenger ship or was it still a matter of being privately owned and a captain hired to take it back and forth? Could ships be passed down in a family? Also what was an acceptable age for a man to be made a captain? Could he be fairly young and if so how young would be realistic without being ridiculous?

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 09:51 PM

And where is the story set -- what countries or ports? Under what flag is the ship sailing, and what is its country of origin? And in what waters is it sailing?

Subject: RE: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: Amos
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 08:59 PM

I'd suggest a little more detail. Is this passenger ship a hybrid steam driven with sail, or a full-rigged ship? What size? There was a lot of change going on in the maritime world in that time period.

Amos

Subject: BS: Slightly odd request: Nautical Info???
From: Pogo
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 08:07 PM

Okay let me explain myself before I go further...

I am working on a quirky little story (juvenile fiction sort of thing) and here's the thing. The story mostly takes place on a small passenger ship circa 1900's and I'm a stickler for having things be accurate...so the request. Any pertinent bit of nautical information peculiar to the time that I'll need to bear in mind while I'm writing? Any on-line info or references will also be most appreciated or if there's any types who like to gab on about nautical history by all means feel free to do so :) you have a willing listener who is fascinated by that sort of thing

thank you in advance {O)