BS: How do you define it?

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Kweku
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 09:03 AM

if you "admire";if you are "attracted" to; and "desire" somebody,then can't it translate into love?

LH,what is spirituality? because I donot think that illusion=spirituality.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 01:41 PM

Number 6, you said: "You look at them and see them as something seperate, something in them you want to be."

Yeah, that happens and we call it "love", but I don't think it really is love. I think it's admiration, attraction, and desire. Admiration can be a good thing, but when it becomes too extreme, it's called infatuation.

The perception that the other is "separate" is physically correct, but spiritually speaking may be entirely false. That, in fact, is said to be the illusion upon which our entire sensory world of illusion ("maya") is built. We may wake up from that illusion when we die.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 11:18 AM

You probably do not need to define it - just as long as you know how to recognise it.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 11:05 AM

Thanks, you two. Very interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Kweku
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 10:58 AM

thanks

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 08:55 AM

Quarcoo, again I appreciate your responses.

As to your question "I hope you are o.k with this explanation?" if you mean did your responses add new information to my picture of Ghanaian customs and attitudes about marriage, the answer is yes.

Also, as I'm sure you know, I'm not wanting or expecting agreement from you or anyone else here. I am wanting information on what is and what was. It is true that I then analysize that information according to my own experience and the standards of my culture. But I know that every culture has their own standards. And I am trying not to be American-centered or Euro-centered when I learn about other cultures that have different traditions than the ones I was raised under.

As to my knowing Moslems. Actually, I knew no Moslems at all up until my young adult years. And then the only Moslems I knew-and that relatively casually were African Americans who practiced a Americanized version of Islam. Some of these "Black Muslems" {followers of the Honorable Elijah Mohammad} became Sunni Moslems. But because of the laws and customs of the United States, they did not and do not practice {legal} polygamy. Needless to say, thoughout my adult life, I have known men who cheated on their wife and wifes who have cheated on their husband. And I have heard some women say that men are by nature polygamous. I still retain the belief that that is not true about all men.

My best regards to you,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Kweku
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 08:41 AM

well Aziz, when I say that a woman should be able to cook,clean and otherwise. that is in no way to disrespect women or womanhood.I guess I was trying to simplify the African meaning of a woman,because what Westerners might consider qualities of a woman might be different from that of Asians.

lets take for example,my mother.she is a private secretary who goes to work throughout the week except on sundays.in short she is a very busy woman.her counterpart in the country-side will also go to the farm or whatever occupation throughtout the week too;and they all make time for their children. but one thing we look out for in our women is how she is able to handle pressure.lets say she wakes up one day and the husband is gone, can she raise the children to be responsible adults? we Ghanaians will forever be proud of Yaa Asantewaa because when the men chickened out she was there to fight for the motherland.that is the kind of woman I am talking about and not some woman who only knows how to cook and clean.

I can say with all certainty that no Ghanaian man nor woman would want to marry a lazy fellow with no job,trade and doesnot know how to run a home. most females in Ghana divorce their husbands because they donot help in keeping the home.

Aziz the only difference between a woman in the U.S and that of Africa is the fact that one cannot cook the food of the other.

polygamous man is a man who has been able to unite sisters under one roof. it is not about sex.children? yes, because he wants a large family.most people tend to think that polgamous men are sex-crazed that is "totally wrong".plogamous men go after women because of their unique qualities. if you have Moslems in your community then probably you could find more about their version on this.

I hope you are o.k with this explanation?

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 07:55 AM

Thanks for your responses to my questions, Quarcoo.

It's interesting to learn about other cultures-and in my opinion it's important not to judge other cultures by the yardstick and of the culture one lives in.

Please forgive me if you [and others] think that I am straying too far from your thread topic by my questions to you and my thoughts that are a result of your responses. But I would like to take this opportunity-rare as it is-to converse about this subject with someone from Africa and also, possibly-hear from others throughout the world on this topic.   

I would love your input [and input from others] on this:

It seems to me that many people in Africa, and other non-Western cultures have probably gone through, and will continue to go through significant changes in their traditions and their attitudes about their traditions as a result of increased familiarity with White & non-White American culture and Western European cultures. I imagine that the Christian religion, and the in-country educational system and the rise in folks educated outside the nation in the US and Europe and the influence of those persons in positions of power would drive those changes [to more Westernized way of living and thinking about things such as dating, and marriage]. But also it seems to me that economic realities [meaning the lack of sufficent money to support more than one wife at a time] and the realities of sexually transmitted diseases and AIDS may cause folks to change their attitudes about polygamy. For instance, a Luo friend of mine from Kenya said that it is the tradition in his ethnic group for the wife of a deceased man to marry that man's brother. In many {recent} cases, the brother had died from AIDS. Invariably, that means that the wife might also have AIDS, and then would give AIDS to her new husband, who gives it to his wife, who gives it to their unborn children and so on and so on. I believe that I understand the traditional reasons for this practice of brother marrying his deceased brother's wife, but what I am saying is that in my opinion, AIDS will [or should] change that tradition.

Furthermore, I think that Western attitudes such as equality among the sexes will become more a factor as persons in your government and mass media, and the Internet, and education system etc become more Westernized. If we in the United States and other Western nations don't blow up the world, I think it is inevitable-given the power and influence of Western cultures-that this happens. I think this will impact Ghanaian and other African cultures' attitudes about love and eventually substantially change such statements as "look [ing] out for a girl who can cook,clean and take care of the home.a strong woman to stand behind me all the time" and a polygamous man [one who is a proven lover or one who has a lot of children?] "is a strong man" . I wonder also is the polygamous man considered strong because multiple wives and multiple children serve as proof that he is a "real man".

I say this knowing that there are quite a number of people in the United States and elsewhere in the "Western world" regardless of race who echo these statements about what constitutes a real man and that the woman should take care of the home and stand behind [not along side of] her man. Yet Quarcoo, for your information, with absolutely no intent on my part to suggest that you are wrong in your views as you stated them, I want to share with you that what you wrote would be considered "politically incorrect" in the United States and in most other Western nations. What I mean by that is that quite a number of people-myself included-don't believe that women should be soley responsible for cooking, cleaning, and otherwise taking care of their home. We {okay I} feel that the man should ideally be an equal partner in this. I also feel that the proof of a real man is absolutely not whether he can impregnate one woman or more than one woman one time or multiple times. In my opinion, one of the main proofs of a real man is whether he is self-confident enough and caring enough to give and accept love.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Kweku
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 05:53 AM

I am loving the contributions by everybody this shows that love has no single definition.

Aziz- years ago in Ghana,parents will search for love partners or life-long partner for their children.this is done to ensure that the child gets married to the right person and to the right family.because in Ghana if you marry from a particular family your spouse's family also becomes your family. after the parents believe that they have found the right person they approach the girl's family for the "knocking ceremony" .this is whereby they notify the girl's family about their son's interest in their daughter,the girl's family then accepts the drinks brought forward and then give time for the boy's family to come back for an answer.during this period the girl's family also investigate the boy's background to ensure that they are o.k with the family their daughter will be entering.after notifying the boy's family about their decision,the marriage rites begin in ernest or otherwise.

these days what has changed,is the fact that instead of the parents looking for the spouse,we the youth do that ourselves. so lets say if I want to get married,I will look out for a girl who can cook,clean and take care of the home.a strong woman to stand behind me all the time. we would date for some 3 months or more,after that I will introduce the girl to my family and the girl will do likewise.if both parents are satisfied, then we can go ahead with marriage preparations. one bad aspect of this method is that,since you want to be sure that the girl/boy is 100% o.k,you might want to have sex with the girl/boy to ensure that she is a woman/man and not some barren/impotent.though most youth will not admit this openly it is a factor because as they say "the sweetness of the pudding is in the eating". and this trial-and-error thing can go on for years and you might eventually end up with an S.T.D. sometimes I wished we could go bakc to the old times. but there are also people who marry virgins.

there are 3 types of marriage in Ghana; Customary-traditional marriage which allows you to marry more than one.
Christian marriage- of course this is the European style
Moslem- just like the one we know.

among my peers,monogamy is considered as the best, because of the high cost of living,Moslems also dread marrying more than one because there is a lot of "heart attacks" in polygamy. but a polgamous man is considered a "strong man" in Ghana. and these days in Ghana no matter the religion or upbringing most females in Ghana just hate polygamy,most have no reason for this.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 03:44 AM

Also is love a necessaery pre-requisite for marriage?

Probably not, says Roger. Certainly not, says I. The confusion between the various aspects of love is bad enough without bringing what, in the long term, is essentially a business partnership into it (the business is life). There's no evidence that arranged marriages have a higher failure rate than self- selected ones.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 03:06 AM

Also is love a necessaery pre-requisite for marriage?

Probably not - but wheels will go around in the absence of any lubrication - however any journey will be better when lubrication is available.

So will sex - but perhaps not with axle-grease..........

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Alba
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 10:18 PM

Good question Quarcoo

I think the word itself is over used.
People say they love a lot of Things so the feeling behind the actual word gets lost in language.

One can quote Poets and Writers, Artists and Musicians and say that they have captured the essence of Love in their work and while that may be true, it is how each individual feels that defines Love for them alone.

You mention there are various kinds of Love. I, however, believe there is only one Love and it is how and to whom we express and share that one Love with that shows the various forms it takes.

Is Love essential to Marriage or Relationship.
I think Respect, Friendship, Empathy are and perhaps if these 3 things are in place as the foundation of the Marriage or Relationship then perhaps Love grows from them so while Love may not be present at the beginning it may develope over time.

To me, Love can only be shared if you Love yourself first. If I cannot say that I love myself (character defects and imperfections included:>) then how can I say I Love some one or any one else?
How can I even define Love. For if I did not know Self Love how would I be able to explain it, let alone share it.

I believe Love is a limitless resource of the Human Spirit which we can, if we wish, give freely of, without fear of being left with none. Even if we do not receive any in return we always have enough to share.


As to how the Culture I live in defines Love well I cannot say...truly. On that issue I am left bewildered at times!

As I said, good question...with many a philosophical answer I'll bet:)

Jude

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 08:36 PM

Btw,

Thanks, Shambles for that beautiful comment.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 08:35 PM

Quarcoo, may I take this opportunity to ask you about the contemporary customs in Ghana regarding love, dating, and marriage.

Am I correct in assuming that polygamy used to be the tradition, but that now one wife/one husband {at a time} is the legal norm?

And Quarcoo, is it your sense that customs & attitudes regarding dating ubhave changed since your parents were your age? And if so, do you think that they have changed for the better or for the worse, or is it a toss up.

Also, I understand that you are in your twenties. Is it your view that most of your female peers see monogomy as an achievable goal? What about your male peers?

I ask these questions out of genuine interest. Yet, I don't want you to feel as though I'm asking you to speak for all the Ghanaians in the world.

Thanks,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 05:23 PM

Falling in love - is when our souls touch.

Being in love - is when our souls embrace.

Loving - is when our souls become one.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: number 6
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 04:52 PM

"You look at them, and you don't see them as separate, you see yourself."

I disagree L.H ... You look at them and see them as something seperate, something in them you want to be.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 04:49 PM

one's not half two. It's two are halves of one:
e.e. cummings

one's not half two. It's two are halves of one:
which halves reintegrating,shall occur
no death and any quantity;but than
all numerable mosts the actual more

minds ignorant of stern miraculous
this every truth-beware of heartless them
(given the scalpel,they dissect a kiss;
or,sold the reason,they undream a dream)

one is the song which fiends and angels sing:
all murdering lies by mortals told make two.
Let liars wilt,repaying life they're loaned;
we(by a gift called dying born)must grow

deep in dark least ourselves remembering
love only rides his year.
                           All lose,whole find

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 02:25 PM

There are a lot of different expressions of it.

But I'd define it ultimately as this: Seeing others as yourself. Inseparably. You look at them, and you don't see them as separate, you see yourself. That's complete empathy. If you experience that, you cannot help but treat others with total love.

This is the characteristic that could be found in a fully developed spiritual master...and in God. Since God is (presumably) both infinite and omnipresent, then God must be one with all that is. No sense of separation. No sense of denial or judgement. That's love.

In our relationships we love according to the degree that we feel "at one" with the other. This is why a mother's love for a young child may be the strongest love usually seen in human relationships. The child becomes like an extension of the mother's own being. She protects it as naturally as she would her own limbs. That's love. Love is that which recognizes no separation.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Kaleea
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 02:14 PM

I believe that love is a concept which is beyond our ablility to completely understand. You may experience love and still not understand.
What Bill D said--& add to happiness, life or well being.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 01:53 PM

one old notion of romantic love was:

"That condition where someone else's happiness is essential to your own"

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 12:17 PM

Thanks that would be nice.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Windsinger
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 12:15 PM

Purple, the glib answer is that if you're looking for a single word, grá, as its English counterpart, can suffice as a catch-all term for all four of the Greek names.

The more in-depth answer is that when you use Irish to describe different gradations of feeling for someone, you get VERY heavily into idiomatic expressions, as opposed to single words.

If you're interested I'll send you a link. ;)

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 12:10 PM

I'd like to tell you your wrong Shambles but I don't think you are.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 12:08 PM

I fear there are not the words in Greek or any other language that will do this justice. Not that this should stop people from trying.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 11:42 AM

I also rate Lewis on the subject & find the characteristically precise distinctions of the Classical Greeks very useful.
There have been times in my life when I have found English's way of using the same word for all 4 types of love deeply frustrating.
(Does Gaelic distinguish them Fionn?)
In answer to your other question,Quarcoo I personally consider love necessary to marriage.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Kweku
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 11:27 AM

MMario- anything will do.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Windsinger
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 11:23 AM

Ebbie, you beat me to it. ;) I think that the Greeks had the right of it, by having four different concepts of love.

Storge: natural affection ("huggy" love)
Eros: sexual desire
Philia: friendship ("brotherly" love)
Agape: altruistic or unconditional love

Regardless of one's personal religious/spiritual leanings, I've always thought C.S. Lewis' tract on the subject ("The Four Loves") was an interesting read. Very thought-provoking.

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 11:19 AM

"grief and pride and hope" wonderful.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 11:14 AM

But it is an interesting subject.

As I've gotten 'old' I've become aware of another kind of love. I suppose it comes under the label of agape but it seems more specific thatn that to me. It's the connection between the individual and his whole world, a mixture of grief and pride and hope.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 11:13 AM

"Love is all there is, it makes the world go 'round,
Love and only love, it can't be denied.
No matter what you think about it
You just won't be able to do without it.
Take a tip from one who's tried."

The Zim

Subject: RE: BS: How do you define it?
From: MMario
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 11:00 AM

This topic is almost as convoluted as "What is folk?"!!!

Subject: BS: How do you define it?
From: Kweku
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 10:57 AM

I have been trying to understand what Love is and what actually constitute love. Is it about caring and loyalty?

The love a mother has for the child is different from the love she will have for the husband or even her dog. Others talk about agape love and a host of others. In Ghana,helping a friend in need is considered as the greatest love of all. Also more people tend to show love to their own kin than outsiders,though this trend is increasingly changing.

What is your view on love. How is love viewed in your community?

Also is love a necessaery pre-requisite for marriage?