Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 05:04 AM

Jerry,

You have mentioned things learned from your experience in the School of hard Knocks, the very things that are drummed mindlessly into young 'formal' music students by rote...

:-)

Of course, I'm not really saying that way is better, mind you.... :-)

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 01:04 PM

Some good observations, Genie:

And I agree with all of them. One thing I've learned through the experience of singing with a Men's Chorus there last ten years is that parallely harmonies can get boring reallll fast. As a kid, just naturally tended to sing parallel harmonies... as much as anything, I suppose, because that's what I heard in a lot of popular music. When I first heard the Four Freshmen, I realized that there was a whole world of harmony that I never knew existed. I was flipping through a bin of 78's and came across Tuxedo Junction, and bought it just because it was by a quartet. I had no idea that the song was a wordless vocal arrangement of a big band song. My ear was attuend to the Four Lads, The Four Aces, The Four Knights, The Four Tunes and the Four Lorns. When I first formed the Gospel Messengers, I had no real idea how to arrange the songs, other than to make them sound like what I heard in my head. One of the things that I learned quickly... both in the Men's Chorus and the Messengers, is that the bass line needs to be greatly simplified. Singing a bass harmony that parallels the lead sound really stupid.
I realize now that the push harmony that strengthen the lead vocalist follows much the same pattern, simplifying the harmony down to a few key notes that help support the chord changes. The flow from four part harmony on some lines, to an occasional shared note, and a two or three part harmony, while breaking up the rhythm and switching from an instrumental background to an a capella line keeps the song moving.

Right now, I'm thinking out harmonies and rhythm for our new tenor to lead Just A Closer Walk With Thee. He's sung the lead with a full choir, and with a quartet, the arrangement needs to be very different.

I'm finding this thread a real help in clarifying my own thoughts. I hope some of you are finding it helpful, too.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Genie
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 12:59 AM

Jerry,
I have no problem with harmony lines occasionally sharing notes or counter-melodies crossing over each other.

I grew up singing in church, both in the choir and in the congregation, and it's not at all uncommon for the altos and tenors, or for all 4 parts occasionally to share a note. Plus, I'm partial to countermelodies, as opposed to harmonies that consistently stay above or below the melody. Countermelodies often do hit the same note as the main melody in a few places.

Where's the harm?

In fact, maybe one reason I'm not wild about barbershop is the overemphasis on always having 4 distinct scale notes on each word of the song. Paradoxically, I think having the various parts sometimes hit 4 different points of the scale, sometimes split onto 2 separate notes, and sometimes all sing in unison ADDS variety and complexity to the presentation beyond the usual "barbershop" 4-part harmony.

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 08:39 PM

"wonderful things about human voices is that, no matter how apparently discordant, they can blend and make those harmonies acceptable to the ear where using those same harmonies with instruments can make many people squirm!"

Modern instruments are mostly fixed in 'equal temper' intonation - human voices generally will, in close live proximity, tend to drift into 'just' intonaton...

But that's already been discussed in other threads...

:-)
~~~~~

"It's not "some new discovery". It's just fun."

It is definitely 'a new discovery' for those who do not go thru formal 'classical' music training process with a fixed syllabus. Sadly many seem to want to make a big case for NOT doing this sort of training (not necessarily 'the full bottle' for everyone, but many basics are easier to understand if taught in some form of rational staged manner), as if that somehow gives them more 'street cred' in 'f*lk music'.

As an old Interdisciplinarian*, I can say that many of the 'basic truths' in life carry over from one area of knowledge to another - music is music, and certain knowledge basics just make life easier...

:-)

* once called 'Renaissance Man'... :-)

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: BB
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 01:55 PM

I think one of the wonderful things about human voices is that, no matter how apparently discordant, they can blend and make those harmonies acceptable to the ear where using those same harmonies with instruments can make many people squirm! I can certainly listen to some of the more modern classical composers' compositions for a cappella singing, and really relish the harmonies, but hate those same composers' instrumental pieces.

Having said that, I'm not keen on 'clever' harmonies in folk songs - I believe that they tend to detract from the words, which IMO is the most important aspect of folk song. Contrapuntal harmonies to folk songs are I think, 'unnatural', and those that are 'instinctive' are more likely to get the words across. I didn't always think that way, but I cringe now at some of the 'written' arrangements that I used to sing!

Oh, and the 'get off my note' syndrome makes for some hefty bruises on the upper arm from the next singer's elbow!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 12:20 PM

Hey, Ron:

How nice to see you in here. I really enjoyed your contributions, and whether I knew what you posted or not isn't the question. To me, knowledge is to be shared, not to be used to establish superiority. We are all experts on some things. And woefully ignorant on others. Lack of knowledge is never something to be apologetic about. The only way that we grow is to ask questions.

Years ago, I used to tell my friend Pat Conte who is an international expert on ethnic music of the world that I was his "Unplowed Field." (I knew nothing about the traditional music of Tahiti, for example.) We are all unplowed fields in some areas of knowledge. And here's to all the unplowed fields! What a pleasure to share our knowledge of things that we love with those who have a desire to learn more!

I still have enough unplowed fields in my knowledge to keep a cadre of friends joyfully busy for the rest of my life.

Ain't it exciting!

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 11:59 AM

Hey Robin--

It's not "some new discovery". It's just fun. I certainly agree that classical music has a greater richness of harmony than other types--after all, consider the palette the classical composer has to work with--but just voices harmonizing is also fascinating--as you know from works by Byrd and Tallis--to pick two of the absolute top in classical choral writing. (Interestingly enough, they were both Catholic in Elizabethan England--but that sounds like pretty egregious thread creep.)

Anyway, there's no reason to look down on so many other different types of unaccompanied singing--which are also immensely satisfying--and wonderful fun.

This thread started out by inquiring about the differences in attitude in various kinds of non-classical music towards people singing the same note in harmony groups-----a perfectly fine question---and one which has resulted in lots of interesting information.

I think Jerry has another winner.

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 08:50 AM

If you learn to read full 'Symphonic Scores' - the conductor's copy, that is - you will see much 'doubling' of phrases by many different sections of the orchestra all the time, and much 'counterpoint & harmony...

It's not unlike playing a pipe organ with dozens of ranks of differing sounding and pitched ranged pipes to be coupled in or out as desired - or one of those organs with hammond draw bars: you have all these different tonal qualities to compare and contrast or reinforce to generate new tonal sounds.

... and you 'f*lk lot' get all excited over juggling just a couple of human voices at once like it's some new discovery?!!!


:-)


:P

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 10:54 PM

But I bet you knew all that.

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 10:53 PM

Jerry,

You want "get offa my note"? You ain't lived til you try being in a bluegrass group (maybe you've done it). Those guys-- at least some-- are downright fanatical. Not only does the note have to be in the chord--that's fine. But only a particular voice is allowed to sing a particular note. Even if 2 singers want to switch notes-- (no duplication)-- that's frowned on too.

I love close harmony--and I love bluegrass. I'm very willing to go to a 5th if somebody else wants the 3rd. But the bluegrass approach (it seems to me) is just too rigid--though I agree with those who frown on "uptown" chords in bluegrass.

What I do in bluegrass these days is just to sing the bass--1 -4- 5- 1-- (or variations on that)-- usually. But in bluegrass there's only room for a bass in gospel bluegrass--well, I suppose bluegrass is the "high and lonesome sound"--so that's the way it is.

Sea chanteys--well I had a sea chantey group once upon a time. We only rehearsed once a year--for our one gig. It was pulling teeth to get all the schedules to coincide--though there were only usually about 7 of us--for even one rehearsal. So one year we had none--and it went just fine. Rough edges in sea chanteys--no problem.

When we did rehearse --well it depends on what your goal is. If your goal is richness of sound, or close harmony, you don't want much duplication. If it's power, or a stark beauty, duplication adds. So in chanteys, it's often a good idea. Classical composers often used duplication --esp on 1 and 5--tonic and dominant--to convey power--figuratively and literally. And in Sacred Harp (which I also sing). there's lots of duplication in octaves--it does add to the power of the sound--especially if in different voices--say bass and treble--and especially if there's no 3rd.

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 03:35 PM

Great response, Claire: I like your observation about different sections of the music calling for simpler harmonies. I like to hear some dynamics in an arrangement, not only in the harmony, but in power. We do songs where we're all singing a strong Ahhhh behind the lead singer when we really want to emphasis the words of a line, and then we drop down to a very soft ooooh... I'ts like dropping a powerfull phrase onto a soft velvet cushion. It makes the whole message of the song resonate.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: ClaireBear
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 02:00 PM

Back in my folk trio days, when we sang unaccompanied we sang in three-part harmony. Two of us, however, were harmony-impaired, so it became crucial to craft harmonies that were (almost) as innately singable as the melody...somewhere between what Wysiwyg calls heterophony and "simultaneous horizontal melodies." That way, the harmony-impaired could learn their parts as melody lines and pretend they were singing lead, which helped them get it right.

We used unison, too, both across the trio and between any two of the three of us. Sometimes we used it as as punctuation on important lyrics or to accent a key melodic bit (like what you'll often find in church music). But more often, we doubled up on notes to insert a stripped-down chord (tonic and dominant only, tonic and subdominant only...that sort of thing) between more complex chords as "ear relief" -- a necessary "rest" for the audience because we tended to use rather bizarre chords/harmonies. (Good, though...)

Why I started this is because once, for an a cappella competition, we commissioned a vocal arrangement (of Eric Bogle's "The Moggie Song") from a professional musician. She chose to write our arrangement in "barbershop," a style about which we knew next to nothing. Her work was spectacular, and in it we never came together on a single note. But gosh, was it hard to learn! The intervals were all dimished fifths and augmented ninths -- a memorization nightmare. Very inorganic, somehow counter-intuitive...not a harmony conceived in nature, meaning you'd never burst spontaneously into one of those parts. But impressive -- heck yeah. And fun to sing, once we'd learned how to do that.

Speaking as the token non-harmonically-impaired member of the aforementioned trio, I think that in the average melody there are places that cry out to be enhanced with rich harmonies -- and other places that are best left more austere through the use of unison or two-note harmony. I think that varying the level of harmonization strengthens an arrangement by adding depth and texture.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it!

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 10:44 AM

Marc-

:~)

Here's what Cicely Fox Smith had to say about some shanty singer revivalists in the 1920's from the introduction of her collection of traditional sea songs called A BOOK OF SHANTIES, pp. 14-15:

"...let me briefly describe a painful experience of my own as to how not to do it. It was at a music hall which shall be nameless. The curtain rose, revealing one of those impossible stage inns -- made of creeper and green trellis at sevenpence-ha'penny a lineal foot -- called "The Jolly Tar," or something equally improbable. Outside this preposterous establishment were seated at a small table three large mariners, whose costume -- an artistic blend of jerseys, seaboots, cheesecutter and stocking caps -- suggested that they had made an indiscriminate raid on the slop chest at the Sailors' Home. Quoth one of these worthies to another: 'Let's have a tchahntey!' and amid encouraging cries of 'A tchahntey -- yes, a tchahntey!' the individual addressed rose, and, with a wealth of dramatic gesture, laying aside his churchwarden pipe, sang -- well, I just forget what he did sing! It was too painful to listen to...Strong men have wept to see such things done: murmuring the while in voices broken with emotion that they wished they had that blank-blank crowd on watch in the old This-That-or-the-Other, in order that they might perform the interesting nautical operation of knocking eight bells out of them."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 12:04 AM

Hey there Charlie. I don't believe you had posted yet when I stared mine. I'm finding it quite amusing that it took me an hour and a half to finish that thought. and 14 more to check it.

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 01:00 PM

Thanks for the imput on sea chanties. I have a problem myself when work songs or spirituals are heavily arranged, as if they were art songs. Ferbuary is Black History month over here. (The other eleven months are White History months... :-) We end up doing a lot of spirituals when we sing. One of them has various names.. we call it Wait 'Till I Put On My Robe. (sounds like a response to.. "Honey, someone's at the door..") I like to sing it where the harmonies come in on the "response" in an informal way, with two lines coming in on the "wait", one after the other, with all the lines holding for the harmony. It's hard for me to imagine black slaves picking cotton in Alabama when it's over 100 degrees in the blazing sun, getting into a heated argument because everyone didn't come in on the same beat. Much of black music was originally polyrhythmic, anyway. It's like a chorale doing an arrangement of Take This Hammer, with everyone singing the "huh!" at the swinging of the hammer in perfect harmony, being careful to enunciate the huh with perfect intonation. In trying to "elevate" the form, they end up looking foolish. But then, that's only in my eyes..

To each his zone

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 12:43 PM

... not that I'm a professional arranger, but I picked up a few tricks here and there....

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 12:41 PM

I've never heard it called that word, it's just music...

With a weak lead singer - an arranger can do the same trick.

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 12:25 PM

So. tell me more, Foolestroupe..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 11:08 AM

The 'push-harmony' thing is not unknown outside 'non-folk' music.

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 09:58 AM

What a great thread Jerry, very, very interesting.

"What about sea chanties? If two guys sang the same note when they were hoisting the lanyard (or whatever they do) would they be keel-hauled."

Actually there are those that feel strongly that harmony singing is not correct to the chanty singing tradition, and that it was introduced by "Black crews" on American vessels during the latter part of the 19th century. Frederick Pease Harlow in his book Chanteying Aboard American Ships makes the comment, "The southern negroes are not gifted to sing a chorus in unison and consequently they employed their harmonious faculties on the chantey, with the result that the whites soon began to imitate them." Today it is quite common to hear harmony in a chanty chorus, but there are folks that feel strongly that it's not "traditional".

As for singing the a "unison during the coarse on a harmony line', that appears to me to depend on where your from. It is far more common in the United States. The American Chanty groups that I'm thinking of right now that are known for their harmony arrangements, (Forbitter, Nextradition, Windlasses, The Johnson Girls) tend to lean toward what you'v described, (no two singers ever on the same note, parallel motion being quite common). However British, and European Chantey singers tend to lean more toward (for lack of a better comparison) the style of singing that reminds me of the Copper family. In this European version of harmony singing, the parts go in and out of unison going to the 3rd, 4th or 5th then back to the unison and very rarely moving in parallel motion.

As for me, I like the sound of male voices singing in unison, but most of the people I sing chanties with would rather not sing then sing the same note as someone else. I always thought this was an ego thing.

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 08:39 AM

Jerry-

You initially asked if sea music groups have similar issues with harmonizing. Ours does, and the discussion certainly sounds familiar. However, some scholars maintain that traditional shantying (the works songs at sea) never involved harmonizing in the chorus or refrain, with the possible exception of black sailors. Like all generalizations this one may not survive the test of time, but we may require a time machine to conduct the test. Lord knows that work about ship was difficult enough without extended discussion of who was on someone else's note!

My group, Roll & Go, prefers to harmonize on the chorus or refrain, and sometimes with a single person harmonizing on part of a four line verse with the lead singer. There is also usually one person echoeing the melody in a different octave. The harmonizers sometimes pass by one another on a shared note but we try to avoid parallel harmony. We also sometimes take off from a shared melody note on land one one at the end of a line. I'm not sure how one would more technically describe that but there are a couple of members within our group who actually know what they are doing.

With a new song we generally evaluate each member's harmony attempts with the lead by playing guitar chords. Then we either record the successful ones or attempt to remember what works...

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: bbc
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:44 PM

I would look forward to hearing that, Jerry. I really enjoyed last year!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 07:11 PM

I agree as well that notes an octave apart aren't harmony. But street legal. If you have five people singing, you have to cheat somewhere. In both doo wop and black gospel groups, someone singing an octave above someone else's note in falsetto is one option. If there are enough harmony lines to fill in the spaces, that sounds great... a nice balance to a walking bass line.

A year or so ago, I invited someone who'd sung with three or four classic doo wop groups: the best known being the Flamingos (I only have Eyes For You.) He introduced me to the concept of "push harmony." I'd never heard of it before (or since, for that matter.)
Someone who is singing push harmony sings a simplified melody line, "pushing" the lead singer and strengthening his lead. That makes a certain amount of sense as in a five man group with all the harmonies wailing out, the person singing push harmony can help the lead singer stand out above the background. Unfortunately, our attempt to integrate the person into our group didn't work out, so I didn't get a lot of working experience singing push harmony. But, it's something we'll be talking about with the bass singer from the doo wop group who is joining us. He's sick this week and won't be able to make practice tomorrow night, but he does all of the arranging for the doo wop group, and between the two of us it should exciting, working out the harmonies together in a way that respects both styles of singing.

This year, if we do the Church And Street Corner Harmony workshop at NOMAD, we'll have a lot to share from these next few months of working together.

I really appreciate all in the input to this thread. It's part of the growing process.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: BB
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 03:49 PM

Scoville, agree with you. An octave apart isn't truly harmony - that's why I can't see how you can avoid doubling up when there are four or five of you. With four, you could do so occasionally, but not on every note, and still sound good!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Dave Swan
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 12:25 PM

Interesting thread. When I sing with my my two partners we generally avoid unison, but we find that the three of us singing the same note in three octaves can produce an interesting effect if used sparingly.

I read somewhere that wolves avoid unison when howling. I've played with that notion in a dog yard full of huskies. Once you've got most of the yard going (in the case of the dog yard I know, you can have a hundred dogs in on the sing) you can only hear the five or six dogs closest, but they seem to choose different notes. Howling the same note as a nearby dog often causes him to find another note for himself. Try it. It's more fun than rehearsing and you don't have to buy beer.

D

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 11:21 AM

That's a real good idea, Mr. Ted! We'll try it out on a couple of songs. A lot of the older black gospel, especially the spirituals, are based on call and response. I'm off now to a program that we're doing as a trio, but when I get back, I'll talk a little about what they call "push" harmony in doo wop groups. That's something else that I think we'll work with.

Meanwhile... time to go sing.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 11:08 AM

I am amazed at how flexible you and your guys are, Jerry, especially given the constraints of harmony singing!

I had one idea, and that is, with five, you can do the "Fifth Dimension" thing, which is to work out call and response between two parts (each two voices, hamonized) with the melody floating on top--this is like what the big bands did with brass playing back and forth with the woodwinds--

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 07:22 AM

Hey, Mo:

Doo Wop is a term somebody dreamed up for what was called at the time rhythm and blues vocal groups like the Penguins, Orioles, Platters, Moonglows, Dion & The Belmonts and the rest. Rhythm and blues in the 50's included everything from Little Richard, Fats Domino and Ivory Joe Turner to a wide variety of mostly black popular music. The term doo wop was coined specifically for the vocal groups because they used a variety of nonsense syllables like doo wop, dip dip, sh-boom to imitate the sounds and rhythms of instruments in their harmonied.

Barbershop singing is very standardized four part harmony that goes back more to turn-of-the-century popular music.

Always good to ask. There's tons of stuff I'm ignorant about. Or, to put it more kindly, I am not yet conversant on. That's what Mudcat's here for..

Jerry the listener

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Mo the caller
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 02:07 AM

Now to show by ignorance.
Is doo wop the same as barber shop?

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 03:24 PM

We're getting into practice now with my trio gone quintet. The doo wop group manages to avoid two harmonies hitting the same note because they have a bass, a baritone two second tenors (one of whom often sings in falsetto) and a first tenor. There's a lot of room between the bottom of the bass's range and the top of the falsetto.
My gospel group now has two basses, two baritones and a second tenor. There isn't enough room to find four harmonies without every doubling on a note, or hitting a note in the melody. Fortunately, the two new members from the doo wop group (a term I hate, too) are much more realistic, and relaxed about singing gospel.

The other complication is that we aren't always the same number of voices when we sing. We sang as a quartet last Sunday, sing as a trio tomorrow and all five of us will be working on harmonies on practice on Thursday. You really have to be quick on your feet to adjust the harmonies, depending on who is there each time. Sometimes we aren't.

Jerry

Thanks for all the observations. I am really enjoying them, and learning something along the line.

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Scoville
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 03:13 PM

I've got friends who refer to this sort of thing as 'half-harmony'--harmony half the time, same notes half the time, more or less. Seems to be fairly common in country-type music here; even duos such as the Louvin Brothers who were known for their harmony do it some of the time. I don't recall if/how often it appears in shape-note, though. It's been awhile since I did that.

(On the other hand, we do not consider the same note an octave apart 'harmony'. I don't know what the official 'rules', though.)

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 02:35 PM

A flatted seventh interval is a second, JohnB--

For the life of me, I'll never figure out why you all are so dead set against studying a little music theory. It'd make life so much easier for you, because you'd know the words that describe what you are already doing--

Jerry is right of course--there are a lot of really different approaches that get bunched up under the "doo-wop" rubric(a name I hate, incidentally)--some lay the melody on top of a call and response between the bass and middle voices(who sing a rhythm pattern made of shoops and doops and boppas, usually on the third and fifth of the chord), some sing in unison and break into a chord at the end of the phrase, others sing the melody as block chords(almost like barbershop to a swing beat)--some have a falsetto soprano with the melody carried by the baritone, others have the soprano on top of the melody--

My thought is that you can double up on the melody notes(unison), and it is OK to have the melody note included in the "doo-wop" block chords--but it seems like it would create a serious balance problem if two voices were on the same note for any other part--

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: JohnB
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 11:46 AM

The only time we hear a hole in the harmony is when my wife and I sing together and find the same note an octave appart. Then we miss our Alto, she frequents fourths as well as thirds and fifths. We often resolve into what we call "graunchy" chords, the ones that make your hair stand on end and your spine tingle. We really wish we knew exactly what we are doing, then we could use it in other songs but we don't have the requisite musical abilities to explain it, only how to feel it. I think sometimes we use flattened 7th's and possibly 2nd's to get our sound, when you get it though, boy do you know you got it.
JohnB

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:38 PM

Yeah, we wrestled with "Oh Why" for about 3 years before being able to approximate a good arrangement, never mind siong it as a sinlge vopice for unison congregational singing. It's a challenging one. And yes it has that certain SOUND, I remember feeling it the first time with "Step by Step." "Oh Why" has a jazzy slide up a really unique scale in the back parts. Dunno enough theory to nail it. But hear it? Yes. There it is again, going by in my mental karaoke machine.

As far as doo wop, there is one thing I can hear in my mind quite unmistakably characteristic of the sound, and that is-- imagine you are hearing them go into the very first run of the "er-rat-a-tat-tat." There is an interval from the first note to the second-- I bet you can hear it in your head. THAT's the doo wop. No piano handy or I'd say what that interval is, but that's it. They all have that in them somewhere I bet!

A-oom-pop a-oom-pop a-oom-popppa maw maw -- same interval, where the a-oom slides in at the start of the line.

And hm-- oh crap! I am NOT going to sleep well, tonight! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Mudlark
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:24 PM

Way too simplistic, I suppose, for this discussion, but I sort of follow the jazz theory that whatever sounds good IS good. I'm not skilled at harmony, but it comes in very handy when others are singing in a key I am uncomfortable in. And God knows, it sure feels good when it's right on the money.   But there are times, to my ear, anyway, when coming togther in unison, especially in tight phrasing, is exactly the right thing to do, just as sometimes, in some songs, dropping the harmony altogether, in certain secitions, works best.

And there have been times when singing in 3rds gets sort of monotonous, to my ear....and unison is a relief.

If it sounds good, I'll welcome anyone on my note.

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:02 PM

Hey, Susan:

I wish there was a doo wop sound. When you compare Shep and The Limelights with the Monotones and the Magnificents, and toss in the Coasters and the Platters, it's hard to find a unifying thread. Off the top of my head, I think the phrase "doo wop" (which I've never liked) may hold the key in the difference of the two styles. Even there, I can immediately think of exceptions.

In black gospel, vocals sounds that help the harmonies fill the role of back-up instruments are usually limited to Ooohs and Ahhhs... Oohs are softer, and the lead vocalist can float over a sea of Ooohs. Ahhs are harder and are used more for emphasis, generating more power for particular lines, or the chorus.

In doo wop, vocal sounds run the gamut from rat-a-tat, to dip-dip-dip-dip, shoo-doobe-doo-be doo, wah-ooh, rama lama ding dong... the sounds are only limited by the imagination of the singers. The bass singer in doo wop has a much wider pallete of sounds to choose from than the bass singer in black gospel. And then there is the whole body of novelty songs in doo wop that you don't find in black gospel.

As I say, all these generalities are just that. We're working out a new arrangement of a song Oh, Why? with our new tenor. Listening to the original recording by the Five Blind Boys of Mississippi, their range of vocal sounds is just as wide as any doo wop group, and the chord progression of the song is very doo-wop, Earth Angel sounding.

But you know, folks, I was hoping that someone would step in and talk about doubling a note in sea chanties, works songs and other kinds of music. I appreciate the comments on classical arrangements and music theory, being completely ignorant in that realm. The same goes for groups like the Watersons (who I really like) and other traditional group singing in England. I can only talk about what I know, and I am still a learner even there.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:45 PM

Unison (properly, not like many random gatherings of voices), fifths, and thirds, in parallel for several consecutive notes, is a very powerful sound

Don't forget the Rock Guitarists 'Power Chords' trick.

'Classically trained' music students are strongly discouraged from doing it when practising their music theory exam study - being heavily marked down - parallel thirds are allowed a bit more than the other two, especially parallel fifths are frowned on.

'F*lk Musos' can do whatever they want - 'whatever feels good'...

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: BB
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 03:49 PM

I'm sitting here listening to the three-female group 'Grace Notes', (who you may not know, Jerry) and thinking how incredibly effective it is when they drop into unison, although most of what they sing is in three-part harmony. But maybe part of what makes it interesting is the different tones of the voices rather than the different notes.

Whether people are singing the same note or note is likely to depend on how many are in the group. If you've only got three, then it's possible for each one to always be singing a different note, but if there are more, then it's almost impossible unless it's a very complicated chord (and that would sound very strange if each chord was a fancy one), or they are singing in a different octave, when it becomes more a matter of tone - and the more people there are, the harder it becomes. Having said all that, I think it can be very effective, even with just two of you, to occasionally drop into unison for a few notes (just listen to early Watersons).

Just thinking aloud - hope it makes sense!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:32 AM

So what do you need to listen for, differently, in the doo wop?

What's the (maybe-tiny) difference in sound you're hearing that makes it the unique doo-wop sound?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:26 AM

Thinking about finding harmony lines, and group singing, I thought of a good way to explain how voices blend. When we work out harmonies, I tend to think of thirds between notes, so that we get a full sound. If there is too big a gap between notes, I hear the hole and it doesn't sound right. It is as if you broke a string on your guitar, and played a chord with the same fingering as if you had all six strings. None of the notes that you play would be discordant. There'd just be a "third" missing and you'd hear it. To me, it's the same in singing.

When we're working out harmonies, and I hear a note that sounds discordant to me, I always come back to the chord. I'll play the chord, a string at a time and say, "Pick a note... any note." If someone is singing a discordant note, I'll play that note in the chording on my guitar, and noses crinkle. It's not necessary to be musically sophsiticated, or know how to read music. Let your ear do the walking. Hmmm... I think I mixed a metaphor there...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Janie
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:52 PM

Nothing to contribute--just want to say I appreciate the opportunity to 'listen' and learn.

Janie

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 09:50 PM

"I think ultimately it will turn out to be about melody lines, not chords"

"It's just the way it's done!"

"Like the rift" "I dunno if I would call it a rift, just genres emphasizing different aspects"


If it ain't a seperation of philosphies, then why wonder what the difference is?

:-)

Everyone needs a hobby, I suppose...

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 09:08 PM

Well, I get obsessed exubered in a similar way, is the thing Jerry. :~)

And sometimes, we human beans learn best by conmparing and contrasting-- taking a thing apart 99 million ways till we feel the whole we could only see, till then.

~S~

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 09:02 PM

I dunno if I would call it a rift, just genres emphasizing different aspects of one great world of music. Messy-- but messy is good!

~S~

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 09:01 PM

Sheesh, Foolestroupe! I'm having a great time! So are the guys in each group. We love to sing together, and as we discover our different approaches, we all are learning more about harmony in the process. Obsessing is about as far removed from what is happening as anything I could imagine. We sang together at a workshop and immediately hit it off as friends, and musicians. We aren't approaching this in any scholarly way, because I don't approach music in that way, and neither do any of the other guys.

We're just having a great time together!

I started this thread not to talk about me, or either of the groups. I asked about how other people approach harmony, and what their experience is in other kinds of music. I'd still like to hear how other people make harmony. We need all the harmony that we can get.

Thanks, Susan for understanding that it is exuberation, not obssesion that drives me.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:48 PM

"I think ultimately it will turn out to be about melody lines, not chords"

Like the rift between 'medieval music' - and still seen in Arabic/oriental music - and 'Western European Music' - especially that which developed out of 'Church Music' which had a greater emphasis on 'vertical Harmony' than 'simultaneous horizontal melodies'...

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 07:31 PM

(to correct above post)


Getting over it, and learning something in the process of exploring it, may not be exactly the same thing.

I don't think Jerry is just reacting to something being different. I think he's wondering HOW and WHY it is different-- with Mudcat to help. I think it's going to involve learning how these doo-woppers think and sing. I think ultimately it will turn out to be about melody lines, not chords per se. By this, I mean that it is a situation that presents itself as a chordal challenge but I think he will find that in the doo wop, it's about where each singer's line is moving (line), more than where they are at any given moment (chord).

~Susan

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 07:29 PM

Getting over it, and learning something in the process of exploring it, may not be exactly the same thing.

I don't think Jerry is just reacting to something being different. I think he's wondering HOW and WHY it is different. I think it's going to invoilve learning how these doo-woppers think and sing. I think ultimately it will turn out to be about melody lines, not chords <>per se. By this, I mean that it is a situation that presents itself as a chordal challenge but I think he will find that in the doo wop, it's about where each singer's line is moving (line), more than where they are at any given moment (chord).

~Susan

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 07:13 PM

"I think Jerry is discovering some of the essential differences between the genres, that the doo wop folks may not even have realized is a key factor-- the chordal stuff I described, above."

I agree with you WYWIWYG, but I still say that in the overall scheme of Life, it is a minor thing - don't get ulcers over it! It's just the way it's done!

:-)

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:46 PM

I disagree-- I think Jerry is discovering some of the essential differences between the genres, that the doo wop folks may not even have realized is a key factor-- the chordal stuff I described, above.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:36 PM

Jerry,

If two differing groups you perform with have differing 'rules', that's just it.

The academics will rant and rave about it till the cows come home and most people have been driven away, just like the endless and mostly pointless discussions about 'f*lk' music.

You are obsessing about something rather minor.

:-)

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 11:14 AM

It bugs the heck out of our musical director. I have to work sometimes to convince him that there are songs { our version of Long Black Veil come to mind } where it just sounds so "mountain" to double up on some notes in the chorus. I had to dig in my heels on that one. And face it - the larger the group gets the more likely it is that someones going to double up on a note. It's bound to happen.

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 11:01 AM

Hey, John: No, singing the same note an octave apart is fine in black gospel, and doo wop, too. How it sounds depends on how many voices you have. If you have a trio, and the two harmonies are an octave apart, there's way too much empty space between them. It's not that harmony always has to be in thirds, but if you are looking for a smooth blend, I think that too much distance between harmony lines sounds much worse than occasionally sharing a note.

The two groups I'm talking about have a very different mix of voices, and they determine the harmony to a great extent.

The Sentinels are a five man group. They have three tenors, a baritone and the bass singer, whose range is much closer to baritone.
Because they are tenor-heavy, they sing songs in a high range so that the bass line could even be sung by a tenor.
The Gospel Messengers have two baritones (both of whom can comfortably sing bass) a bass singer, and a second tenor (the lower range of the two tenors.) Harmonies are clustered more toward the low end of the range, just because of the voices.
When I sing baritone with the Sentinels, I am pushing the top of my range. When I sing baritone with the Messengers, I am hovering near the bass harmony. In both groups, the harmonies are close, but in a different range. In the Messengers, Frankie sometimes sings in falsetto, an octave above me. When we have a tenor singing harmony between us, it sounds fine. When we don't it sounds empty.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: JohnB
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:39 AM

I am a Tenor and sing primarily English Trad Folk with a Soprano and an Alto. Our harmonies frequently have the Tenor and Soprano an Octave appart with the Alto on a third fourth or fifth inbetween.
It works for us, however when someone sings the others "normal" note it allways brings the cries of "hey you get off a my note"
JohnB.

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Mooh
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:31 AM

Sure isn't any rule against it in church harmony singing where I come from (Anglican Church of Canada). I'm surprised there would be a disinclination towards sharing notes between parts in any music, we're hogtied by other things enough as it is.

I'll join the chorus of "geez Jerry, another good topic!".

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:26 AM

In my mind I've been running thorugh some doo wop I've heard. It seems to me that a characteristic of it can be that the singers are pulling the tune apart, note by note, in divergent lines of harmony, and then bringing them back together at certain points only to diverge again.

It made me think of the familiar Doxology (Old Hundredth) which is SO CHORDAL, with a chord change required on almost every note, that you can't quite get it right on a regular-set-up autoharp. The beauty of that Dox is precisely the pulling into different strands, using harmony (doubled on organ) to get some really cool effects.

As for heterophony as a precursor or poor relation-- I can see how people singing in it might discover, spontaneously, things that sounded good, to replicate deliberately, which might tend toward what we know today as harmony. But I can also see that being completely unnecessary, because it's quite lovely the way it is.

In slave times, people were bought and sold, qathered and dispersed.... the spontaneous formation of harmony through repeated occasions for specific individuals to sing together might not have been the usual experience. I do not know how and why heterophony and improvisation are such foundation characteristics of African music-- maybe tribal movements and clan/tribe meetings?

It's just a word, as "polyphony" and "harmony" are just words. How it's used, what it signifies, of course would vary with the genre and the culture about which one uses the word.

Another place you hear it, of course, is among kids singing at daycare. As they get older, they are made to learn another way.

One thing heterophony is NOT is "cacophony." A simple anaology is those kids in daycare. Well-led, they will sing heterphony. If they haven't had their naops and enough attention, I am sure it might come out as cacophony.

~Susan
momentarily-fascinated-with-all-things "-ophony".

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: John Hardly
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:02 AM

When you say they won't sing the same note in a harmony, surely you don't mean an octave either?

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: MMario
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:02 AM

well - to me, "heterophony" just sounds like a pre-cursor/ancestor/poor relative to "harmony" - though I have rarely heard it said in harmony that EVERY voice should be on adifferent note.

I don't normally sing harmony - for a number of reasons - including that I tend to lose the harmony and slide into the melody; but there are a few tunes where either the melody as I sing it harmonizes with someone elses version or by experimentation there are phrases that I sing outside the mainline melody because someone has like it sung that way agains the melody. I guess that would be 'heterophony'

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 09:55 AM

Don't you love the idea of heterophony, though? I bet you hear it all the time. I just never knew there was a NAME for it.

~S~

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 09:51 AM

My wife and I are going to hear Ladysmith Black Mombazo on March 8th..

Yes, there is always a tendency by some to "improve" music to make it conform more to European standards. I hear this in some black choirs who seem to take pride in sounding "just as good as" highly trained, white choirs.

Doo wop comes from many sources, as you say, Susan. I also find different approaches from the guys in the Sentinels who grew up in New York City and "hear" the music more like Dion and The Belmonts, the Skyliners and other groups that come from a different musical tradition.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 09:37 AM

PS, always prufereed. I did, but look what happened.

~S~

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 09:36 AM

HETEROPHONY.
Intrinsic to Africa-based music, but not other musics which focus on harmony. I've been wanting to start a thread about that-- thanks, Jerry.

Doo Wop has influneces from some of the music streams that flowed over to the US from Africa when many of its enslaved people were forced to come here, but it also has influence from other strains of other sources, where harmony is the prized object.

Heterophony was the natural form of shared-singing expression for the spirituals as they were originated. As these were marketed to European-heritage Americans, though, harmony was added to them. Some of that tendency to use harmony came, consciously or unconsciously, from white hymnody on and around the plantations as well as via church and campmeeting influences.

There is STILL a confusion that harmony is a "higher" form of musicianship, and an effort to "raise" the assessment of black musicianship by pointing to educated black composers.... I think, myself, that heterophony is actually the higher and more beautiful form and doesn't NEED to be raised.

Heterophony can still be heard today in singalongs if the people singing are not aiming for harmony but are singing along as individuals using whatever each one thinks "the" tune is supposed to be. I think-- I would have to go back and listen to some sound files I have not heard since learning about heterophony-- that maybe Ladysmith Black Mambazo are singing much of the time in heterophony.

You always have to remember that in black gospel, MOST of the arrangements we think of as "harmony" are, equally, "heterophony." And that in black gospel, arrangements were just as likely to be worked out by ear as to be written out. Again, there is still an effort to raise that up, as if composition on paper is better than creative improvisation.

Somewhere in my sound files I have a clip of an early quartet rehearsal where you can HEAR the guys work out an arrangement, and practice it, and get into an argument over how it "should" go.

People.... are PEOPLE. :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: David C. Carter
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:48 AM

Hi Jerry.I've been known to occaisionally wander off onto my own note!
I Tried some doo wop.My wife said it sounded more like "Doo What!!!"
Can't help on this one,but keep 'em coming!
Cheers
David

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Vixen
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:39 AM

Jerry, you *do* come up with great threads...

I'm so bad at harmony singing, I'm always wandering off onto someone else's note, much to the consternation of all involved, so I'm not the person to address your questions at all, but I'm very interested to read what other people who know more than I do have to say about it!!!

V

Subject: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:02 AM

In the last month or so, I've started singing a little with a five man a capella doo wop group: The Sentinels. That has led to three of the guys in the group starting to sing with my gospel quartet, doing mostly black gospel. It's a wonderful juxtaposition of two singing styles that havc a common ancestry in the black church. I met the guys in the a capella group when I invited them to sing with us at a NOMAD workshop titled Church And Street Corner Harmony. Unfortunately, my quartet was a duo that day for reasons irrelevant to my questions in this thread. It's only been since the three guys from the a capella group started singing with my quartet that the differences between the two styles has become noticeable. Specifically, there is a very different attitude toward more than one person singing the same note on harmonies. Which leads me to start this thread.

When the guys from the Sentinels heard the Gospel Messengers CD, they really loved it and have been playing it constantly since then. But, they made an immediate observation that on several of the songs, there is more than one person singing the same note. I've sung doo wop with them a little, and have witnessed first hand how carefully worked out their harmonies are. They would never sing the same note as someone else. I saw this same meticulous care for harmonies when the Beans (a folk quartet from Massachusetts) sang harmony on several gospel songs I recorded for a never-released album. They worked endlessly, perfecting their harmonies, and would almost come to blows if two of them ended up singing the same note.

Not so, in the older black gospel music. For ten years, I've sung in a male chorus in a black Baptist Church, and we commonly share notes. That's especially true of the baritones and bass. The two tenor harmonies do that much less frequently.. rarely, actually. When I look at the music in the hymnals (we learn 95% of the songs by ear) and we sing from it, I see spots where the harmonies come together during a line and sing the same note. It's also not uncommon for two of the harmonies to come together on the same note at the end of a line.

So... I was wondering what you folks who sing in a group (formally or informally) feel about harmonies coming together on a note on occasion. Does it grate on your nerves the way it does with my friends, The Sentinels? What about sea chanties? If two guys sang the same note when they were hoisting the lanyard (or whatever they do) would they be keel-hauled. Or on a chain gang, or picking cotton? Maybe I just have a more relaxed attitude toward harmonies because I come to group singing from folk and gospel. I definitely see a more relaxed approach in the old black gospel quartet singing.

The other major difference in black gospel is that the message comes first. The arrangement supports the message. That's clearly not the case in most doo wop..

I'm very interested in getting your perspective on this...

Jerry