BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!

Subject: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 07:12 PM

Another along the lines of the old colloquialisms thread:

My ears perk up at differences in accents, uses of language and the like. we've had some wonderfully fun discussion of such. Lately, I've been hearing what Americans call aluminum pronounced as ALOO min yam, pronounced as aloo MINI yam on BBC-America. So I went to my trusty dictionary and sure enough, there was a Brit spelling which included the extra "i" which we don't have over here, so it is aluminium and that pronunciation fits.

Now, one other I would like to ask about to get the ball rolling (where did that expression come from?) over here we have a KAWN tro versee (controversy), yet, same spelling and I hear kawn TRAH vesee on Brit tv, with the latter "r" dropped. Is there a different spelling for this one, too?

Let's have some more fun, eh? Pedants and scholars on your mark, set, go!

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 07:29 PM

Funnily enough, Kat, thease two words are a constant source of cONT-ro-versy between my American wife and myself.

I wind her up by using the British pronunciation in both cases, but, truth to tell, I think the Americans have got it right on both counts.

I mean, con-TROV-ersy ???????

Pleeeezzze ....

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 07:38 PM

Definately aluMINium.So there.But I dont know hot tp pronounce argument.

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 08:11 PM

Brits are actually pretty evenly divided about where to put the stress in controversy. I say conTROversy, but others say the other. And to the best of my recollection, nobody considers that one way is an Americanism. You've got a free choice. But definitely only way to say aluMINium over here.

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: mack/misophist
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 08:26 PM

It's my understanding that the house of Hanover had a significant affect of British pronunciation of English. Could it be that some of our differences stem from new pronunciations introduced by the Williamites and scorned in the colonies?

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 09:00 PM

We used to recite a tongue twister when we were kids... keep repeating aluminum, linoleum after me... altogether now, speed it up. Don't try aluminium, though, you'll break the rhythm..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 09:07 PM

who are these Williamite chappies and what are they to with Hanover.werent they all called George and were mad and spoke German or something

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 09:11 PM

You Brits will just have to get with the shedule..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 09:17 PM

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 10:05 PM

My grandmother said "alumim". She also said "cimmammomm" and "chimbley" too......

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Hrothgar
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 12:56 AM

You can always fix the aluminum/aluminium thing by calling it refined bauxite.

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 01:15 AM

You're a kill-joy, Hrothgar! I like "almium" better.

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 03:13 AM

Greg , you are of cporse correct that in Britain, CON-troversy is not regarded as an Americanism. The point is that in the USA, con-TROV-ersy is regarded as a British pronunciation.

Perversely, con-TRIB-ute is standard American pronunciation, CON-trib-ute sounds strange to their ears.

Oh well, enough of this, must get on with my schedule (skedule? shedule?)

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 03:23 AM

---Ah! --So it's aluminum, cadmum, barum, selenum, etc.,etc.. Methinks it a' stertit when yin o' thae early American schuil-maisters got it a wee kennin wrang! [Mind you, the American "maneuver"is an example of sheer common sense!]

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: MudGuard
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 04:02 AM

In German, it is Aluminium.

And the German word for controversy is "Kontroverse", and the stress is "KontroVERse"

MudGuard

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: RangerSteve
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 06:11 AM

In case there may not be enough versions of Aluminum on this thread, I knew someone who said "Alulimum" (pronounced "a LOO lim um".

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 08:16 AM

When originally discovered, it was called 'Aluminum', but some bright spark decided to confuse things by renaming it to fit in with the table of elements...

Ho hum...

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 08:30 AM

Facts:

source

While aluminum was discovered by Hans Christian Oersted, Denmark, 1825 (impure form); most credit Wohler with isolating it in1827.

Actually the ancient Greeks and Romans used alum (aluminum sulfate with potassium) in medicine and in dying. de Morveau recognized the base in alum in1761 and proposed it be called alumine. Lavoisier thought that alum was an oxide of this undiscovered metal. In 1807 Davy proposed the name alumium for this undiscovered metal, but it wasn't until 1827 that Wohler actually isolated aluminum, though an impure form was isolated by Oersted two years earlier.

The new metal was called aluminum. Two years later it was changed to aluminium to conform with the "ium" in most other elements. American Chemical Society changed the spelling back to aluminum in 1925, which we still use. England and elsewhere in the world they still spell it aluminium. So if you hear someone say "al-u-min'-i-um foil" instead of aluminum foil, you'll know where it came from.

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 10:09 AM

Very kewl! I knew I could count on you folks! Thanks!

One things about controversy which no one has commented on, though, is when I hear Britspeak, I hear con TROv esy without the second "r." Any explanations? Is it regional, am I hearing wrongly?

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Snuffy
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 12:05 PM

And we have sulPHur. Any more chemical differences?

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 12:55 PM

I defer to my Canadian husband on most matters of pronounciation (because I tend to prefer Canadian pronounciations myself), but there are a few Canadian pronounciations that I just can't bring myself to accept. Naturally, these are a source of endless amusement in this household. They have to do with the pronounciation of the letter "A" in such words as "pasta" and "pajama".

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 01:10 PM

You won't find "have a nice day" in the OED. That is to be found in the Oxford Book of Humour.

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 01:20 PM

Well, Kat, Britspeak has a lot to answer for (threadcreep alert!)...

Did you know that the name 'Beauchamp' is pronounced 'beecham', but even wackier is 'Cholmondeley', which is pronounced 'chumley'?!

There's loads more, but I'll let someone else have that pleasure now I've got the ball rolling!!

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: weepiper
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 02:12 PM

Kat, the controvesy thing is part of the south-east English accent which is the closest thing to 'standard' English, used on BBC etc, familiar from newsreaders and so forth. A feature of this accent is that speakers don't pronounce 'post-vocalic R', so 'car' comes out as 'cah' and 'controversy' comes out as 'controvehsy'. People in the North and some other parts of England, and in Scotland, do pronounce these Rs. So it depends on where the speaker comes from.

Interestingly pronouncing your post-vocalic Rs is seen as a low status marker here ('working class') whereas in the States it's the other way round - compare pronunciation of 'whore' as 'ho' in the States.

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 02:16 PM

Data from "The Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 54th Ed., and the OED.
Davy, the discoverer in 1812, first used Alumium, then settled on Aluminum (from the Latin word alumen, alum). In 1822, it was proposed in the Quart. Rev. that Aluminium be used "in preference to Aluminum, which has a less classical sound." Some writers preferred it because it fit with Sodium, etc. in spelling.
Somehow, classical Latin scholars got into the argument, many of them coming out in favo(u)r of Aluminum. (Don't ask me why, my Latin was taught to me too long ago).

In 1925, The American Chemical Society came out in support of Aluminum. In all American (I should say USA, Canada is bivalent) journals concerned with chemistry, and most American (USA) scientific journals in all fields, the use of Aluminum has been upheld and enforced by editorial boards. Aluminum thus continues to prevail in the USA.
Elsewhere, Aluminium remains preferred.

Now, there is always sulfur vs. sulphur .....!

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 02:21 PM

Sorry, Bernard, I should have read your post but I missed it. You have many of the facts.
Also you are correct about the discoverers, Davy was the one whose name was accepted.

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 03:03 PM

Trust those silly Victorians to get fancy about classical overtones!!

Thanks for the historical tidbits on this age-old kohnTROVahsy, blokes....


A

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: belfast
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 03:04 PM

It is impossible to sing Woody Guthrie's "Grand Coulee Dam" without using the American word. This is a perfectly valid reason for dumping the British version.

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 03:23 PM

The OED supports CON-tro-ver-sy, just as it does recognize (rather than recognise).
Remember, the OED reflects upper class usage ("Oxbridge").

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 03:46 PM

Pasta. The OED gives pae-sta which is pronounced pass-ta. They didn't add the word until the 1987 Supplement.
Webster's Collegiate gives Pah-sta but also lists pass-ta.
Southerners in the States tend to pass-ta.
Many good Italian restaurants in my city, so I go with Pah-sta.
More creepy thread-
Here is a description from the OED, 1673, by a man named Ray: "Paste made into strings like pack-thread or thongs of whit-leather (which if greater they call Macaroni, if lesser Vermicelli) which they cut in pieces and put in their pots, as we do oat-meal to make their minestra or broth...." He was writing about a trip to the Low Countries, so one can imagine what the Dutch were doing with the stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 04:05 PM

Macaroni... didn't he invent the wireless (English for 'radio'!!)?

;o>

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 04:08 PM

Not marzipani?

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Barbara
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 05:06 PM

My grandparents were all Canadian, eh? (from Ontario) and the differences I am aware of include saying 'shedule' for 'skedule',
'Chewsday' for 'Tuesday', 'al-you-MIN-ium' for 'aluminum', 'zed'
for the last letter of the alphabet, 'com-MENT' for 'COM-ment',
and a number of items that were called by different names.Most embarrassing for me as a teen is that folded piece of cloth/paper
that goes in the lap at meals; the Canadians call it a 'serviette', and they relegate 'napkin' to the sanitary and baby category.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 05:27 PM

It's interesting how we changed the language isn't it.....American laziness or whatever. By the time "Derby" got to Ohio and throeugh a few generations, it had become two words, one as Derby (dirby) and the other as Darby (dahrby). Even better is Worcester which wound up in Ohio as Wooster (Wuhster), but given a few more generations came to be pronounced "WOOOS-tir."

In this neck of the woods we also tend to add in a consonant, simply slurring it. Phonetically, Wooster should have come out as WOO-stir, but we put the s on the end of the Woo and the t at the beginning of stir. I mention that because of aluminum.

It seems that all words opening with a vowel here are immediately changed so that the vowel is pronounced "uh".....Like in Uh HI uh, more commonly written as a joke as Ahia but actually pronounced "Uh-HI-Uh. Add in the doubled up consonant break in the middle and ALUMINUM comes out "Uh-LOOM-minum." It a faint doubling, but if you listen, it's there, just a quick tongue flick for the second m.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 05:35 PM

Oh yeah...a few favorites........

As you travel around the midwest check how people say these town names:
Lima (Sorry, it's not Lee-mah, in Ohio it's Lye-muh)
Versailles (yeah, you guessed it...Vur-Sales)
Belefontaine (somehow this one becomes Bell-FOUNT-ton-note the doubled consonant)
LaFayette (At least in Ohio our Lah-Fee-YET is better than Georgia where it's La-FAY-it)

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Bert
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 07:18 PM

It really should have the extra i, otherwise sodium would be Sod 'um.

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 09:32 PM

(P.S. I just said "pahjamah" to Mr. the Sailor, and he laughed at me ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 09:58 PM

Yuh mean "pjs"? Or pie-jam-as or puh-jahm-uhs puh-jam-uhs or pee-jams? I think that one has a whole smear of pronunciations.
Personally, I prefer a nightshirt.

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 10:35 PM

LMAO! Thanks!

I think I'd mentioned some back in New England which struck when we first moved back there, similar to some that Bernard mentioned:

Chelmsford is Chums-fird, whereas in the West we would think it should be as spelled. Literal minded we might be, even though we all know the "proper" way to say Belle Fourche, South Dakota, is bel foosh, but NO one but a "dude" would say it that way. We all call it Bel-for-shay. Likewise Dubois should be doo-bwah but it comes out doo-boyz.

Spaw, that is interesting!

weepiper, not all in the US who drop that "r" are looked at as lower class. There are a bunch of New Englanders, at least that I know of, who say cah instead of car, etc. and are not looked down on. They also have that English habit of adding an "r" at the end of things!*bg*

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Les from Hull
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 08:36 AM

I've heard that you say tomato and we say tomato.

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Fingerbuster
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 10:49 AM

Have you encountered the salt line which demarcates the north of Britain from the south? ie;
In the north "salt" is (generally) pronounced "solt" in the south it's (generally) pronounced "sawlt".
There is a "Butter" line too

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 10:51 AM

Les - is that either way or either way?
Bernard
You didn't mention Farqueharsan and Culcuhoun (Fanshshaw and Culchurn).
I am waiting for the controversial pronouce-iation of guerrilla (or yet the correct spelling).
And while we are on spelling and correct language dare I prise open the can of worms - the one with the big Dubbya on the front. What is the correct spelling of Oasama (and by inference pronunciation).

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 11:46 AM

Department of Utter Trivia-

The first practical application for aluminum was in jewelry. The secand was for making horseshoes for race horces--Tiffany pioneered this application.

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 12:07 PM

Yes, Q, I didn't spell it the way I meant to. What I meant to spell was "puhjahmuhs".

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 07:16 PM

In watching House Invaders on BBC America, today, they talked about washing down some kitchen cupboards to get rid of the grease and dirt. They said they used something that sounded like "sugar soap" or "sugar soak." The fellow wore gloves to use it and it seemed to work well and fast. Do any of you crossponders know what the haitch they were talking about?!

Thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 07:38 PM

Sugar soap is a very caustic and powerful cleaner (at a guess it's got some caustic soda/washing soda/sodium hudroxide in, but I dont know). You use it for cleaning paintwork in kitchens which gets grease on from cookers, and so on. There are also products sold in Body Shop type places called "vanilla and melon sugar soap" and so on, which are exactly what they say. It is obviously important to be clear which product you've got before you start using it, otherwise you might end up kind of blotchy.

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Bert
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 07:46 PM

Sugar soap is a high phosphate detergent, somewhat similar to TSP.

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 09:42 PM

G'day Boab,

You noted: "[Mind you, the American "maneuver"is an example of sheer common sense!].

Of course, you're getting dangerously close to the other English language word derived from the same Latin phrase: manus oper,/i> ... manure!

Regard(les)s,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: momnopp
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 10:01 PM

Funny -- I always thought my silly pronunciation of aluminum as aluMINium was merely an invention of my own. I had no idea it was an honest-to-goodness proper way to say it! (Really!) Guess I'm a closet Brit and I didn't even know it! :-)

JudyO

Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun!
From: GUEST,voxfox
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 10:29 PM

My aunt (ahhnt) in England pronounces oregano as or re GHAN o . Took me a second to figure out what she was saying. She was not amused. She says AluMINium also, as did my Mum until she changed it after being in Canada for so many years. She still retains her English accent after all these years. VF