Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 May 03 - 06:47 PM

Anyone read the Oxbow Incident, lately?

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: Frankham
Date: 05 May 03 - 08:08 PM

Vigilantes are like dictators. They set themselves up as judge, jury and executioners. This is what some people would call the rise of facism in America. I can't support the content of this abysmal song.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo
Date: 05 May 03 - 09:04 PM

PoppaGator:

No, I have never been an "American" (at least formally).
Been in the U.S. essentially all my life, tho. Jeg var
fodt i Norge.

If you'll note, the idea of lynchings as the stringing
up of rustlers and bandits is one propagated by the movies,
and more to the European ken (e.g., see McGrath's
comments). The _facts_ about lynchings is that lynchings
were part of a terror movement in the United States, and
despite the "romantic" notions of rough frontier justice,
the real lynchings were far from a pretty scene (and by no
means "Western", and not even exclusively southern).

I find the idea abhorrent of extolling lynchings of any
kind (and to be sure, even the "romanticised" lynchings of
the West probably had more than their share of people
caught on the wrong side of public opinion or even
on the wrong side of the money interests ... fer kicks,
go read "The Ox-Bow Incident as recommended above).

Maybe I'm one of those "professional leftist protester type[s]".
Well and fine, you got me there. Yes, I _do_ decry injustices,
and I don't think you're going to convince me that lynching
is OK by any attempted ad hominem there. Feel free to address
the _substance_ of my comments rather than any alleged motivations
I might have. You might start with the steadily dawning fact
that even people who have gone through the ringer of
judicial "due process" are being _proven_ innocent, and then
tell me that you think that a lynching revival is in order,
or that we should at least hearken back to the "good ol' days"
where "justice" was meted out swiftly to whatever boogiemen of
the day got in the way. . . .

Cheers,

                               -- Arne Langsetmo

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 06 May 03 - 11:44 AM

Gee Arne

And you don't know mine, either. Or any of the first hand knowledge I may really have.

I don't think Toby Keith is Hank Williams, but I never said he was.

Your knowledge seems limited to Top 40 country music. But it's pretty good for a foreigner.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 03 - 02:23 PM

No, I don"t have serious issues with people who disagree with me. I have serious issues with people who take offense at every turn and then feel insulted when people take issue with their self-righteousness. What kind of logic is...well, it COULD be racist ? That is my point. You just seem to be sawing sawdust.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: uncle bill
Date: 06 May 03 - 03:10 PM

This whole thread is hilarious. Here in San Antonio, Willie is revered. I saw him not more than a week ago and he is the same down to earth , good old boy he ever was. (that's "good old boy" in the positive sense, not to be equated with "ignorant redneck" that you yankees think is synonomous with g.o.b. He would give you the shirt off his back no matter what your color or political persuasion. One of my favorite songs comes to mind now, one by Ray Wylie Hubbard, entitled, "Screw You, We're from Texas!"If Willie teams up with some nashville cat now and then its not cause he loves country music, its because he loves music and gets so much joy out of performing. Get off his back you politically correct bunch of weenies.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 06 May 03 - 03:29 PM

Few realize that "vigilante" came from the Spanish for guard. Vigilante action against ladrones in Mexico was a part of the development of that country's rural economy as well.
Lynching connected to pioneer justice in areas of the United States that had not yet come under the rule of law is not just movie romance, but a part of American history. Its end came near the end of the 19th century, after courts and law enforcement covered the country, including Alaska, where the gold rush of 1898 saw its last use. The Vigilantes of Virginia City and the Vigilance Committee of San Francisco are well-known and were covered in a number of books, but most citizen justice before law took over was private and seldom publicised.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo
Date: 06 May 03 - 03:36 PM

Sez Martin Gibson:

    Gee Arne

    And you don't know mine, either. . . .

Didn't claim to, pardner.

                            . . . Or any of the first hand
    knowledge I may really have.

Hasn't seemed to slow you down. But you're certainly not
helping rectify that.

    I don't think Toby Keith is Hank Williams, but I never said he was.

Never said you did. I asked.

    Your knowledge seems limited to Top 40 country music. . . .

To be honest, I couldn't tell you what was popular on top 40,
outside of Toby Keith and the Chicks fighting it out on top. I
play what I like and I like what I play. And sometimes that's
country, whether _you_ deign to designate it as such or not.
I'd note that many of the bands I listen to are generally
starving or living hand-to-mouth, and that includes a
couple that have made their way to country. Some have done
a little better there, though.

FWIW, the best thing that's happened to "country" in a long
time is that some real musicians have made it there, and
have gotten it away from the "my wife left me, my dog died,
I lost my job, and the pickup stopped running" stuff.
The "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou" scene introduced a lot of the
"country" fans to some real talents, and there are other
artists that have also done "country" much more good than
"country" had ever done them. Which is a good thing, I guess.
There will always be your Lee Greenwoods and Toby Keiths, but
country is (and always has been) much more than just them.

    . . . But it's pretty good for a foreigner.

You know, of course, what they used to say about
about Hank Williams. . . .

Cheers,

                              -- Arne Langsetmo

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 06 May 03 - 04:30 PM

Now you are starting to convince me, Arne.

Martin Gibson

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 May 03 - 05:52 PM

Sorry I didn't add the phrase "in my opinion" -- figured it was implied. I'm not taking this exchange all *that* seriously, regardless of how overwrought an individual post might sound. Aren't we all just exercising our rhetorical impulses?

I'm tempted to continue repeating myself, because I still think there's something seriously wrong when anyone equates the juxtaposition of "hanging" and "America" with racism. There are plenty of other reasons for violence and injustice, after all. But I know there's no pointin beating a dead horse. (Apologies to Mudcatter Dead Horse, of course!)

Maybe it's time for this thread to die its natural death. Or, better yet, let's KILL the sucker! Without no judge or jury!

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 03 - 12:08 AM

An interesting way to lie with statistics. I drove a statistician friend in tears from reading this to him. Drawing the conclusion that hanging offenders is a totally unsubstantiate leap. It's like assuming that someone involved in a car accident was drunk because most car accidents involve drunk drivers. The song doesn't even necessarily refer to vigilante justice, much less lynchings. In the video the "heros" are law officers attempting to apprehend a serial killer, not vigilantes. The offender in that instance was white. The only way you could get to the conclusion that the song is racist is to start with that assumption and look for evidence that supports that view. The song is a metaphor for strong justice, nothing else.

Besides, even attempting to assoicate this song with those racist lynchings just shows an ignorance of US history and popular culture. Very few Americans are aware of the lynchings the Tuskegee Institute refers to; it's a past we want to put behinds us. Frontier justise at the end of a rope was romaticized by western novels and movies to the point that it would be the only thing that the typical American audience for Country music would think of.

So don't be surprised if none of the people for whom this song was intended see it as racist. The lynchings described by the Tuskegee Institute are horrifying (if anything fewer than what I was lead to believe), but you're going to have to look somewhere else to find anyone glorying in them.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo
Date: 07 May 03 - 10:20 AM

Toby Keith mentions "rope" and "Texas":

    Take all the rope in Texas
    Find a tall oak tree

A number of people have mentioned "vigilantes" and such
in the context of the American West, but the sad truth is
that in Texas (as well as across the country as a whole)
most of the folks getting lynched were black.

Someone posted a blue clicky to some stats on lynchings
in the U.S., and it's clear that _most_ of the lynchings
were during a period of terror that started just before
the turn of the 20th century and lasted through the '30s.
I posted info on what lynchings meant in Texas (and where
they were most prominent).

Either Toby Keith doesn't know his history, or he does know
his history and doesn't give a damn.

Cheers,

                         -- Arne Langsetmo

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 03 - 01:36 PM

Arne,

The statistics quoted are for the years between 1882 and 1968. By that point (certainly after 1890) the vast majority of the United States was under civil law and "frontier justice" was largely a thing of the past. If you were comparing statistics from the years 1790 to 1890, adjusted for population growth, they would be more meaningful but still irrelevant. Vigilante hangings (which were anything but lynchings as there was generally at least some semblance of a trial if not a lawfully appointed one) simply occured at a different point in time for a completely different reason than the lynchings those that link purports to be reported by the Tuskegee Institute. One attempted to maintain law and order where civil law was not yet effective. The other was an evil attempt to surpress black civil libertities. Look at the examples to see clearly. At the time cited above for the lynchings in Waco the city was the headquarters of the Texas Rangers, the state police, and seat to a district court. Those lynchings were anything but vigilante justice.

As to connecting racism to the song, no where in the song are the words "lynch", "vigilante" or "blacks" used. They came up when someone with an over active imagination thought the song was racist and others responded by pointing out what they thought it was about. Any reasonable American would know the song makes a reference to rough frontier justice in the same way any Brit would know that the swear word "bloody" refers to Mary Queen of Scotts and Queen Elizabeth and not any of a number of other bloody periods of British history. And as any Irishman would know that the U2 song, "Bloody Sunday" has nothing to do with Mary Queen of Scotts.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: Cluin
Date: 07 May 03 - 10:57 PM

Well, I just heard from my buddy today that we have to learn this song for our summer gigs in Michigan so he asked me to download it and find the lyrics (Thanks for posting them above, Joe! Mudcat's always my first and often last stop for lyrics). Just finished downloading the MP3 too and am listening to it now. I gotta say I'm not looking forward to singing it. Willie, what are you doing on this one?

And I really don't see anything racist in it, myself, but it kind of reminds me of another piece-of-shit song, Hank Williams Jr.'s "Country Boys Can Survive". Always hated that one too.

At least we don't have to learn any David Allan Coe material. I'm a-drawin' the line hyar, bah gawd!

Now I have to print it up and scribble in some chords for tomorrow night's practice. At least I learned a good song today: John Hiatt's "My Dog and Me" to offset things a bit.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST,Strick
Date: 07 May 03 - 11:21 PM

It does seem to be a hook in search of a song.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 03 - 03:10 AM

Guest:

Hell, if you have figures on lynchings prior to the end of the
19th century, and can show that these earlier lynchings were
a good thing, out with it.

But we _do_ have the numbers on lynchings during the Klan era,
and I'd say you'll have a hard time topping those numbers,
even "adjusted for population".

As for "evil attempt to suppress black civil liberties",
that's a bit of an understatement. Blacks didn't have
much in the way of civil liberties then, despite the
Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments. What it was was
a campaign to terrorise the blacks, and if it was an
"attempt", it was a damn good one.

No, Toby Keith doesn't mention "lynch". He says "rope"
and "oak tree". Think you can put two and two together?
And you're right, he doesn't mention "vigilantes". Must
have been an oversight on his part, or maybe his mind
just wasn't on vigilantism. . . .

Yes, I think it is a racist song (and to tell the truth,
as the originator of this thread, I think I brought that
up first). Call it an "overactive imagination" if you
will, but I've presented facts here, which is more than
I can say for you. How you can assume that it refers
to "rough frontier justice", when even Keith doesn't
talk about vigilantes, and when the facts show that the
main people being strung up by mobs were uppity Nigras,
is a bit beyond me. Do elucidate.

Oh, and BTW, "trials", in my mind at least, are these
things where they look at the evidence, and where the
accused has a chance to present their own. See prior
comments of mine concerning how easy it is to convict
innocents (particularly in Texas) even with full "due
process". What do you think of the concept of setting
a time limit for production of exculpatory evidence?
Do you think that Texas's policy of a hard "drop-dead"
date (so to speak) for bringing up new evidence is
a good idea? If someone has incontrovertible _proof_
that they're innocent, should the law allow this to
be considered, or should it just say, "whooops, too
late, too bad" (as Texas and a number of other states
do)?

Cheers,

                            -- Arne Langsetmo

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST,Strick
Date: 08 May 03 - 10:28 AM

Lynchings? Vigilantes? The primary method of captial punishment in the United States and most of Europe for many, many years was hanging. Wasn't the last person executed in England in the 60s hung? If the song's mentions rope and villians, that's the logical conclusion.

If you want to complain about the song being pro captial punishment, that would make sense. Who ever thinks this is about lynching just has a vivid fantasy life or a hardon for Toby Keith (an ugly image). Two and two do not make five, Mr. Langsetmo. You have no credible evidence for your position; you try to prove your case with facts that are undoubtably true but for which you fail to estabish any connection to the issue. You've just made up your mind to arrive at the worst possible conclusion, that's all.

Next you'll be telling us an ABBA song was pro-slavery because they mentioned water and sailing which makes you think of Vikings and everyone knows they trafficed in slaves after their raids. And try not to think about the rape and pillage.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: Cluin
Date: 08 May 03 - 12:35 PM

No, man, the song is definitely about lynching. I just don't see it as being specifically about racist lynching. Just vigilante lynching, in general. Arne's position, I think, is that there's not much difference in his mind. Maybe that case could be made for a lot of folk, however I can't see any evidence of racism in the song itself and I doubt very much that it was the intention of the writers (Mr. Keith and another fellow) or the performers (Mr.s Keith & Nelson). That would be career suicide, if nothing worse.

To me, this song just seems to be a pandering to the redneck-sort-of country market (a raging stereotype, but stereotypes sell) who is feeling frustration with social problems, criminal activity and the apparent inability (or perceived unwillingness) of the legal system to take harsher measures to deal with it. So it looks back to a "simpler" time that our "grandpappy" knew, where life was less complicated and folks "knowed what was what". That's a pretty common theme overall in country music anyway. The fact that things were NEVER that simple or just in the "good ol' days" is usually blissfully ignored, but what else is new? If dumbass songs like those from Toby Keith or Alan Jackson are going to sell, they'll keep putting them out.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 08 May 03 - 12:54 PM

Re-reading the song, it seems little more than an expression of frustration at the headlines and the TV news of murder, gangs, drugs, and robbery with violence.
How many of us wish that these crimes, and the people who perpetrate them, could be eliminated?

I see absolutely no overt racism. The call for a little frontier justice is sophomoric but we all applauded when John Wayne took out the baddies.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 03 - 01:13 PM

Guest Strick sez:

    Lynchings? Vigilantes? The primary method of captial punishment
    in the United States and most of Europe for many, many years was
    hanging. Wasn't the last person executed in England in the 60s
    hung? If the song's mentions rope and villians, that's the
    logical conclusion.

Guess you didn't read the lyrics. Keith wasn't hankering for the
good ol' days of trials.

    If you want to complain about the song being pro captial
    punishment, that would make sense. Who ever thinks this is
    about lynching just has a vivid fantasy life . . .

Translated from foamerese into English:
    "a vivid fantasy life" (n): Takes time to read the lyrics.

                                           . . . or a hardon
    for Toby Keith (an ugly image). . . .

An ugly image for you, perhaps. Don't look now but your
other prejudices are showing. But FWIW, I don't have any kind
of "hardon" for Keith.

    . . .Two and two do not make five, Mr. Langsetmo. You have
    no credible evidence for your position; . . .

LOL. Certainly more than you've brought to the table here.
I'm beginning to wonder why there's such a string of people
going out of their way to jump to Keith's defence here. . . .

    . . . you try to prove your case with facts that are
    undoubtably true . . .

Horrors!

    . . . but for which you fail to estabish any connection to
    the issue. . . .

I pointed out in a prior post that Keith either doesn't
know the history of "all the rope in Texas", or he simply
ignores it. I'm willing to conisider him an idiot (but I'd
note that idiots are by no means immune from prejudice; quite
the contrary). Fair nuff?

    . . . You've just made up your mind to arrive at the worst
    possible conclusion, that's all.

See above.

[snip "straw man"/"slippery slope" type discourse]

Cheers,

                            -- Arne Langsetmo

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 May 03 - 01:35 PM

The real life Western hangings were much more than what old Wayne portrayed in Hollywood's hyped Westerns.

There is a fairly new book out on Cattle Kate which argues that she and her common-law husband (they had a problem with a marriage license) were hung by vigilante ranchers who wanted her prime piece of grazing land near Rawlins, WY. The names of her executioners read like the Blue Book of WY. The book includes more research and reveals more about those who killed her, than ever before. I highly recommend it. You can read parts of it at Amazon.

My daughter went to school with the grandson of one of those ranchmen and they still had Kate's brand-new mocassins taken from her the day she was murdered. Here's a small blurb on her with a link to something which I have not read yet, by a descendant of hers: Cattle Kate

Then there was Big Nose George Parrott, who apparently was thought to *deserve* hanging and then some:

Big nose George was lynched in Rawlins, Wyoming. He was the most hated man in the town. After he was killed, the body was donated to the local doctor who made a pair of shoes out of his inner thigh, a medicine bag out of his chest and an ashtray out of the top of his skull. In the 1950's his remains were found in a whiskey barrel where the doctor's office used to stand. All that was kept of his body was his skull. The shoes and skull are on display at the Carbon County Museum in Rawlins. Nobody knows what happened to the medicine bag.

Carbon County, WY seems to have been pretty rough and ready, so to speak. There's another one which my college history prof. told us. I cannot remember the guy's name, but they hung him from a telegraph pole. According to my teacher, who had several books to his name and was a WY native, the outlaw's wife had his body cut down, then pickled in alcohol in a lead-lined coffin which she kept under her bed. She supposedly pulled it out, with help, every once in a while to check on him.

kat

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST,Strick
Date: 08 May 03 - 01:39 PM

Arne, you got me. The only problem is that you've completely missed the more serious meaning of the song. My life won't be worth a plug nickel after I tell this story, but, jeesh, I just got to tell it. You see I was raised near an airbase in West Texas, a bomber base. We all heard the story of how the Air Force was concerned about the safety of the nuclear weapons on their aircraft after a couple of hushed-up accidents. It seems every now and then the bombs just fell out of the plane when they weren't supposed to. Damned dangerous business. The brink of WWIII.

The big brains were called in to fix the problem and added every failsafe they could think of to keep the bombs in the planes. Then one of the non-coms organizing the heavy lifting for the brains asked a question that froze the blood in their veins: "what happens if all that fancy gear don't work?" At the non-com's suggestion they added one last safety device - a strong piece of rope to tie the bombs to the plane.

Now this was all common knowledge amoung the bomber pilots. As a matter of fact, they began to refer to their bomb missions as "going to hang 'em high" after the release of a Clint Eastwood movie.

So you see, this song isn't about lynching or vigilantes or anything like that. "All the rope in Texas" is a code word that any Texas including the president would know. Toby Keith is egging the president to use the US nuclear arsenal to seek gobal domination! Today the Middle East, tomorrow the world!

It's all true, the bombers, the rope (later steel cable, but hemp in its first incarnation), the base in Texas, all of it I promise. Except for the part about the song and the global domination is ridiculous, of course. There's a simplier answer, one several people have offered because it's obvious to everyone but you. You see you can't ignore Occam's Razor and use spurious correlations to reach a conclusion just because you want it to be true.

BTW, MR. Keith is from Oklahoma.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: Cluin
Date: 08 May 03 - 04:18 PM

Now where'd I put that neck brace? I think my whiplash is back...

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST,Tinker
Date: 09 May 03 - 03:58 PM

In reading this whole thread from the start, I was surprised to see The Dixie Chicks being quoted and cited for their opposition to the use of violence to settle problems. Aren't they the same ladies who justified the murder of a wife-beater in "Goodbye, Earl", insisting "Earl had to die"? Seems to me they were encouraging the vigilante approach long before Keith and Nelson did.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST,A different guest...
Date: 09 May 03 - 09:16 PM

Folks, I have met Willie and talked with him about the music business, his politics and so on... let me shed just a little light here, if I can...

    Willie is a 70-year-old man... he was raised literally dirt poor in Texas during a time that most spoiled suburbanites wouldn't have been able to last... He is part Native American, and I personally have seen him associate with black people, whites, Indians, Hispanics and probably other minority people groups, just in case the racial-sensitivity-police are reading this... Willie has plenty of good intentions in his heart for EVERY independent farmer, and for lots of other neglected people as well...

    As far as this song goes, there are plenty of other songs that are a LOT more racist and narrow-minded than this one... lots more stupid lyrics out there than these... no one complains when in "The Highwayman" he sings about soldiers' blood being shed on his blade as he lyrically portrays a pre-Civil War-era highway robber...

    Let's try and remember the source, here, folks... Willie has very rarely given a crap about anyone's "industry" opinions, and frankly, those who say they wouldn't take a chance on selling a few more records by singing with a big star in their field are mostly hypocrites... anyone who sells the stuff wants it to sell well... politics be damned; I have heard Mudcatters say in the past that if a person doesn't like folk music, fine; it's not for them... same goes here... radios have buttons to select other stations, and CD's only play songs you don't like if you buy them and put them on...

Just MHO.

A different guest

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 03 - 08:38 AM

So it is a song praising the good ole days of vigilante lynchings of 'those people'. But 'those people' absolutely cannot be understood to be black. And anyone for whom the image of vigilante lynchings immediately brings racial lynching to mind, is an idiot. Actually, much worse than an idiot--a bleeding heart liberal.

That seems to be the gist of the 'it isn't a racist song' argument. Which doesn't seem convincing in the least to me.

Here is my argument in a nutshell. Anytime white folks feel their heros threatened by charges of racism, they attack the messenger savagely in an effort to 'prove' they and their hero aren't racist. So the response here is entirely predictable.

For myself, whenever the spectre of vigilante lynching is raised, my mind's eye sees an image of racial lynching. No denials of the reality of race lynchings by white folks will ever change that.

I see the song as ignorant, racist, reactionary, inflammatory, AND a really piss poor, clumsy lyric to boot.

I also know that this song, along with that abomination 'Angry American' song, are this asshole's anthems. So frankly, if that is what Willie Nelson is stooping to these days, he deserves to fade into obscurity.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 03 - 08:48 AM

Guest tinker, you raise a good point about the Dixie Chicks song 'Goodbye Earl'. A good number of country music stations refused to play that song, as it generated a lot of controversy. So one can't help but notice the double standard regarding this song being played as a country anthem. I don't know of any stations that have refused to play the Toby Keith/Willie Nelson song.

'Goodbye Earl' lyrics

But I think discussion of the Dixie Chicks song merits a different thread.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo
Date: 13 May 03 - 02:05 AM

Strick (and others):

Toby Keith mentions his grandpappy's saying
"Back in my days, son". And then the reference
to "all the rope in Texas" (Keith may be from the
neighbouring Oklahoma -- not exactly innocent of
lynching either, but it would indicate that his
roots are Texan).

But back in Keith's grandpappy's days, it would have
been in the midst of the Ku Klux Klan terror (in Texas
in particular) as well as other southern states), and
long past the days of "frontier justice". Maybe
Keith was just being allegorical, but even then, his
knowledge of the timeline of lynchings versus the
"frontier justice" is way out of whack.

The History Channel had a show on "Vigilantes" just last
week:

Vigilantes

There they mention that some 6000 people were killed by
vigilantes, but some 4000+ happened well past the institution
of civil law in the West, and were instead part of the
more recent terror campaign against blacks, foreigners,
and religious minorities (blacks in particular). _Most_
of the "vigilante" killings were of this later, far more
pernicious variety.

Vigilantes started in the 1700s in eastern states, and
moved west with the frontier, providing "justice" when
there was no civil authority (or when the "civil authority"
didn't want to do anything, or even were a part of the
rogues, as is described in the Montana clicky in one
past post). But this kind of vigilantism died out as
civil authority was instituted, and what happened in
Texas in the days of Keith's grandpappy was a beast of
a different colour.

I'd note also that not every death at the hands of
vigilantes even in the early days was for some heinous
deed. In at least some cases, the victims were simply
undesirable, or had something that someone else wanted,
or were the target of a personal grudge.

I find it appalling under these circumstances for anyone
to extol the virtues of vigilantism, and in Keith's
case, the crime is compounded by the heinous nature of
the lynchings that were contemporaneous with his
grandpappy. If Keith doesn't know this, someone should
set him straight. If he does, he evinces a personal
character that I find highly offensive. Maybe it's
just "art for art's sake" (or at least for money's
sake), but I find it despicable.

Cheers,

                              -- Arne Langsetmo

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: Strick
Date: 13 May 03 - 09:16 AM

I'm sorry the song strikes you that way, Arne, particularly since it's clear it wasn't meant that way. Lots of injustice in the world. Lots of reasons people don't like Toby Keith. Enjoy these whether they're related or not.

Now, since it's not a folk song, heck it's not even a very good song, why don't we move on?

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 03 - 11:10 AM

Strick:

Why do you say it's not a "folk song"? Are you
one of these folk music purists?   ;-)

As for it being "clear it wasn't meant that way", I see
no evidence for your assertion, yet I have provided
evidence for my two hypothesis.

Cheers,

                               -- Arne Langsetmo

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: jeffp
Date: 14 May 03 - 11:14 AM

Isn't this horse dead yet?

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: denise:^)
Date: 14 May 03 - 01:51 PM

Where does the Toby/Willie song say that they're lynching blacks? I must really be missing it--I thought they said they were going after "bad boys," "gangsters," and people who shoot people, steal cars, abuse people (I'm assuming family members), cause corruption, and commit street crimes...
Silly me, I guess.

Not that I'm in favor of mob rule, lynching, or posse justice--absolutely not! I think the song is intended as an exaggerated way of saying "we need to clean things up." I don't even like the song, really, but I think we need to get out of the habit of yelling "racism!" every time someone's viewpoint, or sense of humor, or poilitical affiliation, differs from ours.

I've looked over the lyrics again, just to be sure, but I don't see even one reference to any particular race or culture, other than the culture of crime.

If you mean it's a crummy song, say it's a crummy song. If you mean that you are not in favor of mob rule, say so. If you mean that you think it's too harsh, say so--but don't bother whining that it's a racial slur.

And whining about Willie Nelson's voice is even more ridiculous. His voice is his voice. You don't like it, you change the station. (I personally have *never* liked his voice--but it is what it is, and I don't have to listen...)

Denise:^)
...in a "zero whining tolerance" zone...

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: Dustin Laurence
Date: 14 May 03 - 03:57 PM

This sort of thing is my least favorite part of Mudcat, and here I am replying to one of *those* threads...why am I doing this to myself?

The argument that that song is racist reminds me of the end of the song "Polka-Dot Undies"; "I tell you that obscenity is all in your...polka-dot undies." Presumably, however, it is a crime against sensitivity at least not to have the same things in your mind as your self-appointed social betters. But then, it seems to me that the "Texas Defense" is the height of progressivism when applied to domestic abuse, but the last word in reactionary savagery when applied to other things, so perhaps I'm just not able to see the subtle distinctions. Ah, well.

OK, sarcasm off for a while. I don't respect many of the opinions on this thread enough want to even discuss them.

That lonely reference to The Oxbow Incident was excellent, too bad people were too busy shouting their prejudices to notice it. Excellent book about just how bad vigilante justice can be. Being an expatriate Montanan, I'll have to track down the book on Montana vigilantes, but it sounds like that and Oxbow Incident might be a good combination, unless of course you necessarily equate vigilanteeism with racial killings--in which case go impose your prejudices on someone from somewhere else.

I am also reminded of a Mike Royko column about a neighborhood pornographer who approached a young woman about some pictures. The column was essentially about how in bygone days her father and brothers would have gone over to the photographer's house and made some forceful suggestions about his behavior toward the young women in the neighborhood and his continued presence there. Which was the more civilized time? Mike's preference, I guess, was clear. Poor, reactionary, uncivilized Mike.

Dustin

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: sweetfire
Date: 15 May 03 - 04:11 PM

RIGHT, sod everything else that people think are to do with this song, will someone please tell me, how the fuck this song is racist??? now i'm not going to pretend i know all about the history of lynching because i dont and i'm not that bothered in finding out. So, whoever thinks this song has some racial issues please tell me why. And when i say why i don't mean try to blag my head with a loada bullshit on the history of anything etc etc because anything else is irrelevant to what i am asking, as i wish only to be involved with this idea the song is racist. The idea of which i disagree to.


s'fire

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 May 03 - 04:34 PM

Sweetie:

If a song is set in the US, and it mentions hanging, certain people will jump to the conclusion that it couldn't possibly be about anything except white Americans -- all of whom are obviously racist -- perpetrating murderous injustice against black people.

Not everyone agrees.

It is apparently unlikely that anyone on either side of this argument is about to change his/her mind.

We should probably stop trying to argue about this. Last week, I swore I would no longer contribute to perpetuating this futile tirade, but here I go again. I realize this didn't contribute anything new, I only repeated myslef. Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Can we please just get along? And drop it?

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: sweetfire
Date: 15 May 03 - 04:46 PM

yea thread does seem to be repeating it'd self. i just wnated to know exactly was the 'obvious' racial content is in the song.
like i said...repeating it's self....

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: Cluin
Date: 15 May 03 - 08:39 PM

Luckily, once I'd actually played this one for my buddy, he stopped me about halfway into it and said, "Aw, I'm sorry you went to the trouble to learn this one. It's really awful! We can forget it." (Hell, it only took 5 minutes to learn, I told him)

He said he had only heard it in passing and fastened on the line "Whiskey for my men, beer for my horses" and, since the place we are playing has a lot of horses, he thought it might go over well. That was before he'd heard the rest of it. I agree it was a good hook line... I guess Toby Keith had heard it years ago and filed it away for future use. I'm just sorry he threw it away on this piece of kife song. It was the title that hooked Willie into recording it with TK, he admitted. If you listen to the song, it sounds like Willie gave him the one take in the studio he'd promised then walked away (the performance and synching up of their vocals is pretty lousy overall). Once he heard the rest of it, I bet he regretted agreeing to it.

So now I can try and put it out of my mind, I hope.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 15 May 03 - 08:47 PM

Toby Keith said he got the phrase when, as a teenager, he worked for a company that supplied livestock for rodeos. In a Charlotte newspaper, found googling.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: Tinker
Date: 15 May 03 - 10:53 PM

Just read this thread for the first time. Whoever the Guest, Tinker is on May 9, 3:58pm ... It sure wasn't me!!!!

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 03 - 12:16 AM

Willie Nelson also appears in the video currently in rotation on the country music cable channel. That doesn't seem like distancing himself to me.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST,jdavis
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 03:48 PM

How about in the context of the Super Bowl, in Texas, and when Byrd's truck-dragging lynching is still very fresh in the mind.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: Genie
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 05:26 PM

When I first heard this song I was appalled, but I didn't hear it as racist. I think you said it well, Guest:
"Toby Keith is, IMO, a dangerous man who has seriously confused the concept of justice with vengeance and vigilantism, and is getting rich singing about his hatred, his anger, and his uncontrollable desire for vengeance."

Lin, I think the (reasonable) concept --"A man had to answer for the wicked that he done." --
is OVERSHADOWED by the lyrics' connecting "Somebody stole a car" (or even "somebody's been abused," "We've got too much corruption, too much crime in the streets,"-- rather broad categories) with "It's time the long arm of the law put a few more in the ground, Send 'em all to their maker..." The idea that having to answer for anything "wicked" means society (by mob action or by law) should "Find a tall oak tree, round up all of them bad boys, Hang them high in the street for all the people to see," that's not just about vigilantism, it's a horribly distorted concept of justice.

The idea that the "consequences" of all "bad deeds" should be the death penalty is (thankfully) NOT the "good ol' American way." It's annoyingly ironic when people like Toby Keith, who flaunt their "patriotism," demonstrate so little regard for our constitutional system of justice.


And Ebbie, yes, we often sing very politically incorrect folk songs that are and are in no way meant to represent our own value system -- just like performing as Lady MacBeth doesn't mean you advocate murder. But I wouldn't perform "Banks Of The Ohio" for a group of wife-batterers, and I think there are far too many country music fans out there who WILL take this song as sanctioning a very reactionary view of "justice." Let's execute car thieves and anyone who "abuses" someone else. The song says nothing about fines or prison or restitution, just "putting [the lawbreakers] in the ground."

This is the kind of thinking that spawned so many "mandatory minimum" sentences and makes real justice impossible in many court cases, not to mention overflowing our prisons with many non-violent offenders (including some whose "crimes" both Willie and Toby have probably also committed without getting prosecuted for them).

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 06:06 PM

Genie

You take this way too seriously.

I love the guitars in this song and I love the video, also.

Preachy, preachy. Talk about over analyzing lyrics.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: Genie
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 06:58 PM

No analyzing at all, really, Martin -- except in terms of posting. What I expressed in my post was what hit me square in the head the first time I ever heard that song.

And I wouldn't take it seriously if there weren't so many folks out there who actually would like the US to be more like Saudi Arabia with respect to "evildoers."

Willie may be singing this song sort of tongue-in-cheek. I'm not so sure Toby is. But even if they are, a lot of fans probably aren't hearing it that way.


PS,
I do like Willie, but I've thought Toby was obnoxious every time I've heard him open his mouth.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST,Flatlander
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 08:34 PM

After reading the posts from John in KS and Lin in KS and their horribly warped reading of a GUEST post, I must admit I am ashamed of them and that they that they are from my home state. Please ignor them, folks - they probably support Brownback and Ryan too. Guess you have to look at it as us Kansans being very tolerant. We also have a buddy of theirs named Fred Phelps.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 11:55 PM

Whatever. It's a crap song.

That doesn't mean people won't enjoy it or TK won't sell lots of records (obviously since his was the top-selling country CD of 2003).

But it still isn't overtly racist in its lyrics, whatever people listening to it might bring along for the ride.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 07:41 PM

Do horses like beer?

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 05:29 PM

Genie

I wouldn't like the US to be like Saudi Arabia for evildoers. Don't they do things like cut off someone's hands?

Hanging is good enough for me.

Watch Toby Keith win a grammy for this song. Why? Because most people do like it.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: pdq
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 06:37 PM

Great song...one of the most origional efforts in a world of predictable pop trash. Tracy Byrd's "The Truth About Men", a song that Paul Overstreet had a hand in writing, is also a refreshing change.

Subject: RE: Toby Keith/Willie Nelson laud lynching??
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 07:20 PM

Seems to me the song is a portrait. Doesn't have to be a self-portrait.

It's possible to like & sing "Samuel Hall" even if you don't share Sam's attitude.

I used to like & sing the "Red-Headed Stranger" before Willie came out with it because it's funny: a caricature -- "Can't hang a man for shootin' a woman/ Who's tryin' to steal his horse."

Art isn't entirely confessional.

clint