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Subject: garryowen From: mike putt Date: 27 Aug 01 - 06:15 PM I'm in trouble again. I have the words to a song called garryowen ( not Sean South )The chorus is "Instead of spa we'll drink brown ale,and pay the reckoning on the nail, no man in debt will go to jail, from Garryowen in glory." I believe that it was the marching song of the 7th cavalry so if anybody knows the tune and chords I will be eternally grateful |
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Subject: Lyr Add: GARRYOWEN From: Sorcha Date: 27 Aug 01 - 06:25 PM Garyowen
Let Bacchus' sons be not dismayed
Instead of spa, we'll drink brown ale
We'll beat the bailiffs out of fun,
Instead of spa, we'll drink brown ale
Our hearts so stout have got no fame
Instead of spa, we'll drink brown ale |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: garryowen From: mike putt Date: 27 Aug 01 - 06:30 PM Sorcha, do you know the tune |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: garryowen From: Sorcha Date: 27 Aug 01 - 06:32 PM Oh, yea, I'm sure it's at JC's, just a sec.......Garryowen, take your pick. "G" gives you sheet music, "M" gives you Midi (sound) file. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: garryowen From: Mark Cohen Date: 27 Aug 01 - 07:54 PM This tune was used as the opening theme to the movie "Little Big Man". I wonder if it has any history with Custer's campaign? Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: garryowen From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 27 Aug 01 - 07:55 PM Chief musician Brockenshire of the 7th Cavalry rewrote the music and composed verses praising the 7th Cavalry, but they are not very inspirational, to say the least. There are unapproved verses which I can't recall. Does anyone out there have a better memory? |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: garryowen From: Sorcha Date: 27 Aug 01 - 07:59 PM I don't know about the re write, but I have always heard that Garryowen was the 7th Cav marching song, until the Greasy Grass. 7th Cav lost so badly that the marching song was changed to Gal I Left Behind. What I posted are the words I have always heard to the tune. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: garryowen From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 27 Aug 01 - 09:04 PM See also, amongst many previous discussions here: GARRYOWEN (DT file, with tune) ...and so on. Most of them contain pretty much the same information, though occasionally someone has had something new to say. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: garryowen From: Gareth Date: 27 Aug 01 - 09:10 PM I suggest that the Native American might well known the Song and Tune - After all they rode away from the Greasy Grass. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: garryowen From: GUEST,Melani Date: 28 Aug 01 - 02:22 PM As far as I know, the Seventh has ever since been known as "the Garry Owen Regiment." I aquired an insignia pin a couple of years ago that shows a horseshoe surrounding a gauntleted hand holding a sword, with a ribbon with the words "Garry Owen." It is the same design as one I unfortunately lost many years ago, which was given to me by a friend of my father's, who wore it on his uniform in the Korean War. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: garryowen From: mike putt Date: 28 Aug 01 - 02:29 PM I am sorted thanks very much to everyone |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: garryowen From: Chicken Charlie Date: 28 Aug 01 - 04:08 PM Try the site www.mandolincafe.com, and I believe you will find a tab. If not, google it, because I have mando tab for it and ergo I got it from the web somewhere. CC |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: garryowen From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 28 Aug 01 - 06:31 PM The 7th still uses the tune. Three versions are given in a history of the 1st Sq. 7th US Cavalry. The first is the set of verses by Thomas Moore, 1807 (see posting by Sorcha). The second is the version preferred by the top brass, written by Chief Musician J. O. Brockenshire in 1907 (one that I consider poor). The third is "Sgt Flynn" with the verse that mentions Montana (the most applicable to the 7th Cavalry). There are profane verses as well and those are the ones I would like to see. For the three main versions used by the 7th: www.geocities.com/Pentagon/3917/history.htm#song. The Garryowen Handbook- interesting reading- has the song on p. 26. www.hood.army.mil. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: garryowen From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 28 Aug 01 - 06:35 PM The thread cited by Malcolm Douglas includes the posting by Wolfgang Hell of "Sgt. Flynn." I haven't checked it against the one on the military site. |
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Subject: Garryowen From: toadfrog Date: 04 Jul 02 - 05:44 PM The "Garryowen" available on DT ("Let Bacchus' sons be not dismayed")looks like a parody of an Irish patriotic song from the mid-19th Century: Oh Garryowen is gone to rack-- Her blood lies on the outlaw's track-- [?] The night hangs cold, and black, Above the shining river; Yet voices live along her walls, That ring out like old bugle calls, Thro' lonesome streets and ruined halls "Our native land forever!" Then hip hurrah! for Garryowen, For as stands the Treaty stone, Our Irish hearts will bear alone, For Garryowen na glora, The broadside appears to come from the mid 19th Century. And the DT version (quickstep of the 7th Cavalry) looks a whole lot like a parody. In fact, it could hardly be anything else. "Instead of spa, we'll drink brown ale, And pay the reckoning on the nail, No man for debt shall go to jail, From Garryowen in glory! Does anyone know any of the history of this? Garryowen, of course, is the old town of Limerick. Is it perhaps, the part of Limerick where Joseph of Arimathea is said to have landed? Was it named in honor of Saint Gereon? Search for "garryowen" threads |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: greg stephens Date: 04 Jul 02 - 05:53 PM John's yard or garden at a guess. St John perhaps? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: toadfrog Date: 04 Jul 02 - 06:02 PM Greg: I ask because there is a St. Gereon's church in Cologne. Your version sounds more plausible. Do you know anything about the songs? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST Date: 04 Jul 02 - 06:02 PM The song "Garryowen" (a suburb of Limerick) is from the pantomime 'Harlequin Amulet', 1800. The tune was earlier know as "Auld Bessy" (Aird's Airs, vol. 3, 1788). Broadside copies of the song are on the Bodleian Ballads website. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 Jul 02 - 07:45 PM Thread 31125 of about a dozen is perhaps the best: Garryowen |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: The Walrus Date: 04 Jul 02 - 08:16 PM Toadfrog, It looks like your "Irish patriotic song" was the parody, it's not unusual with such songs, the prime example is "Dublin in the Green", which is probably more widely known that the original ("Scarlet and the Blue"). Walrus |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: X Date: 04 Jul 02 - 11:46 PM Keep in mind that Custer's men played Garryowen when he butchered my people, oldmen, women, and childern. And after doing so the 7th. cut out the vaginas of the slain and wore them as hats. I know it was war and happened 130 years ago but I cringe everytime I hear the song. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,ozmacca Date: 05 Jul 02 - 12:05 AM I believe I read in a number of places that "garryowen" was a favourite in British cavalry regiments for a long time, and was practically an unofficial song for the Light Brigade well before the Crimea... So did the US cavalry pinch it from the Brits, who had adopted it from the music hall / theatre, who based it on an Irish tune? Don't life get complicated? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Jul 02 - 12:17 AM ozmacca, obviously the US cavalry were latecomers in the use of this 18th century (or older?) tune. A damn good one, so it spread far and wide. The tune was there for the taking, so I don't think you can say anyone "pinched" it. See the other threads with more specific information. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: PeteBoom Date: 05 Jul 02 - 08:43 AM Ah, Banjoest, indeed. Yet we must remember that the contempt the 7th Cav had for your folk, they also had for others - particularly the 9th and 10th Cav - the Buffalo Soldiers (the original ones). It was they, btw, who succeeded in accomplishing their mission, where the 7th failed. They did so with a combination of mercy, respect for their oppenents, and simple grit. And Walrus, I very much prefer Scarlet and Blue over Dublin in the Green - lame lyrics that they are... or am I thinking of the strathspey Orange and Blue... senility sets in - too many eejits lighting off fireworks around the house last night - good thing we had watered *everything* during the day... Cheers - Pete |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: X Date: 05 Jul 02 - 11:10 AM Pete: The 9th and the 10th still have the repect of my people for having the true Warriors heart, something that the 7th never earned. Today we call Lt. Col. Custer the "Indians Hitler" |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Declan Date: 05 Jul 02 - 11:24 AM Any of you who saw "They died with their boots on" starring Erroll Flynn will know that Garryowen was introduced to the 7th Cavalry by a little drunken Irish man, who was sort of a Company mascot. Or is it possible that Hollywood had something historically inaccurate in a movie ? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Jacob B Date: 05 Jul 02 - 02:45 PM My understanding is that Custer heard Garryowen being played by a Massachusetts regiment, liked it, and told his buglers to play it. There were lots of Irish immigrants to Massachusetts. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: toadfrog Date: 05 Jul 02 - 03:25 PM Thanks for the information! Dicho: Sorry about that. I thought I had done a thorough search before starting this one. I guess I was wrong. Walrus, I still think "Let Bacchus sons be not dismayed" has to be a parody of the other songs, because of the way the final lines in the chorus match. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,JTT Date: 05 Jul 02 - 06:55 PM Lots of Custer's men were, alas, Irish - mostly "Scots-Irish" - and they probably brought the tune with them to their red slaughter. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Jul 02 - 07:37 AM I believe there were Nazis in death camps who used to like having the music of Beethoven and Schubert as background music to the killing.
A tune isn't responsible for the disgusting people who choose to play it while they are at btheir work of murder. But it can become inescapably associated with such events.
Has anyone ever written set of words to Garryowen about Custer's massacres? It could be a way of rehabilitating the tune maybe. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: X Date: 06 Jul 02 - 02:46 PM McGarth: Your correct in saying that the music in not the villian but I bet there are some of our Jewish friends out there who can't hear Beethoven without thinking of a loved one they lost. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,Melani Date: 07 Jul 02 - 12:25 PM Why Declan, whatever makes you think that Hollywood might put something historically inaccurate in a move? Actually, the only thing that WAS accurate in "They Died With Their Boots On" was that there was a guy named Custer who got killed at the Little Bighorn. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: dorareever Date: 07 Jul 02 - 04:16 PM Yes someone (Tim O'Brien)has written new words about the massacre using that tune. http://www.timobrien.net/Lyrics2.cfm?ID=2 |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Jul 02 - 06:50 PM Thanks for that. I heared Tim O'Brien and his sister at Cambridge one festival, and liked them. I even caught the CD he threw out into the crowd, and I've got it downstairs. But I'm pretty sure if he'd sung that oine I'd have remembered it.
Thanks doraveever. That's a good song for a tune that deserves it.
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: toadfrog Date: 07 Jul 02 - 06:53 PM Note: Although the Seventh Cavalry is remembered mostly for Little Big Horn, it also (1) served with Pershing in Mexico; (2) Served in the South Pacific in World War II; (3) saw extremely heavy combat in Korea and Vietnam; and (4) still exists. Some of the battles it fought, especially in Korea, are a great deal more important, historically, than LBH, although they have less legendary importance. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: X Date: 07 Jul 02 - 08:27 PM Dora: Would that be Tim O'Brien's "Mick Ryan's Lament?" Good tune. https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=90971&messages=23 |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Noreen Date: 07 Jul 02 - 08:37 PM Mick Ryan's Lament |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: dorareever Date: 08 Jul 02 - 02:16 AM Yes it is Mick Ryan's Lament.Very good tune indeed. |
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Subject: Tune Req: garryowen From: timothy.kelly Date: 07 Aug 03 - 12:11 PM I'm a US Cavalry Officer and have heard the tune for Garryowen countless times, from Army bands to Derek Warfield's "Sons of Erin". And I have read the lyrics about "Bacchus's sons...etc." here on mudcat. I'm trying to find a recording, though, of someone actually singing the song. I know there is a scene in THEY DIED WITH THEIR BOOTS ON (Errol Flynn) where they gather around a piano and sing but the lyrics are a total 1930s whitewash. I want the song about beating constables and gettinmg drunk, a song that would appeal to a real cavalry trooper stuck out on the frontier. kelly@armyocs.com |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: garryowen From: Joe Offer Date: 07 Aug 03 - 12:20 PM Hi, Timothy - I moved you over to this existing thread with the same name. Take a look at the crosslinks at the top of this page and see if any of the related threads can help you. Can't say I've heard a recording of "Garryowen" that's as memorable as what you're seeking - but somebody here must have. I gather you're looking for a song that would really make a fella buckle his swash. My dad says that happens only in Marine OCS. [grin] He's 82 now, but he can still sing "Stout-Hearted Men" with the best of 'em. There's something about the tune of "Garryowen" that doesn't sound particularly swashbuckling to me - to me, the tune sounds a bit too delicate. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: garryowen From: Ernest Date: 07 Aug 03 - 12:47 PM Notation with tabs for guitar, banjo, mandolin etc. at Jaybuckey.com under "Free stuff - tablature"! One of those indestructable Irish tunes, sounds great even when played by a brass band. Yours Ernest |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: garryowen From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 07 Aug 03 - 01:52 PM the Irish would be 'garraí Owen' - Owen's garden Garryowen is a neighborhood, or now housing estate, in Limerick. This info is from the Garryowen football club site - "The word Garryowen - the gardens of John - relates to the association in the 12th century between St. John's Church and the Knights Templar whose house in Limerick was dedicated to St. John the Baptist." - I haven't seen them yet, though my apologies if they exist somewhere in a thread, (not in DT, though), here are the lyrics to the 7th Cavalry version, from http://members.fortunecity.com/dikigoros/garryowen.htm "There was a special set of lyrics written for the 7th Cavalry Regiment in 1905. For those special troopers of the 7th: [Verse 1] We are the pride of the Army and a regiment of great renown, Our Name's on the pages of History. From sixty-six on down. If you think we stop or falter While into the fray we're going Just watch the steps with our heads erect, While our band plays GarryOwen. (Chorus) "Chorus" In the Fighting Seventh's the place for me, Its the cream of all the Cavalry; No other regiment ever can claim Its pride, honor, glory and undying fame. [Verse 2] We know fear when stern duty Calls us far away from home, Our country's flag shall safely o'er us wave, No matter where we roam. "Tis the gallant 7th Cavalry It matters not where we are going" Such you'll surely say as we march away; And our band plays GarryOwen. (Chorus) [Verse 3] Then hurrah for our brave commanders! Who led us into the fight. We'll do or die in our country's cause, And battle for the right. And when the war is o'er, And to our home we're goin Just watch your step, with our heads erect, When our band plays GarryOwen. (Chorus) Reference: "From Custer to MacArthur, the 7th US Cavalry" |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: garryowen From: GUEST,pjoki@msn.com Date: 18 Feb 06 - 08:13 PM I am trying to download the modern 7th Cav version of GO. I have tried several sites, but none work. Can anyone point me to a free download? |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: garryowen From: Effsee Date: 18 Feb 06 - 09:47 PM Allegedly it was Custer's favourite tune. Tim O'Brien does a song to the tune on one of his CDs, I can't recall which one right now, give me till tomorrow. I'll be back. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: garryowen From: gnu Date: 18 Feb 06 - 10:05 PM I have been looking for six years. Gary Owens |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: garryowen From: Effsee Date: 19 Feb 06 - 10:12 AM The song "Mick Ryan's Lament" on Tim O'Brien's album Two Journey's is sung to the tune of Garry Owen. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: GARRYOWEN From: Jim Dixon Date: 16 Sep 08 - 09:17 AM Here is a text of the "Irish patriotic song" that toadfrog quoted above. I'm surprised no one has posted this version before—but then, it seems it is rarely published anywhere. I failed to find it with Google Book Search. The Library of Congress and the Bodleian Library each have copies of the broadside, but they are of very poor quality, with many letters missing or broken, and many misspellings. I found only one "good" transcription, at Songs Collected by Donagh MacDonagh. I tweaked it in a few places to make it agree more closely with the broadside, except in places where the broadside made no sense. GARRYOWEN 1. Oh, Garryowen is gone to rack. Her blood is on the outlaw's track. The night hangs starless, cold and black Above the shining river; Yet voices live along her walls That ring out like old bugle calls, Through lonesome streets and ruined halls: "Our native land forever!" Then hip hurrah! for Garryowen, For, as stands the Treaty stone, Our Irish hearts will bear alone For Garryowen na glora. 2. On those old walls brave Sarsfield stood And looked into the Shannon's flood And lo! 'twas flowing red with blood Of foreign foes to freedom. Within the good old town is still For Ireland's cause some blood to spill And hearts to fight with right good will, And Sarsfield is yet to lead 'em. Then three times three for Limerick town, And Sarsfield's men of high renown Who tramp the English banner down In Garryowen na glora. 3. Our good sires met the English Lords, Their hands forever on their swords, Their slashing blows the only words They deigned to give the foemen; And we will take our fathers' place And scowl into the Saxon face The hatred of a royal race That will be slaves to no men. Then draw your swords for Garryowen And swear upon the Treaty stone To live for Ireland's sake alone In Garryowen na glora. 4. Oh! for an hour in Garryowen, In the crimson light of days long flown, Our banners of green to the gay winds thrown To the chorus of the cannon; To hear the thrilling bugle's call, And Sarsfield's cry: "Behold the Gall!" Hurrah! to leap the fosse and wall And pike them in the Shannon, Then toast the men who fought and won Beneath our banner of the sun, And we can do what they have done In Garryowen na glora. 5. Though Garryowen is gone to rack, We'll win her golden glories back; The night that shrouds her, cold and black, We'll light with song and story; And though her walls are overthrown, We'll build them high yet, stone on stone, And freedom shall be Queen alone, In Garryowen na glora. So three times three for Garryowen, Her old gray walls and Treaty stone! We live for Ireland's cause alone In Garryowen na glora. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,Marianne Date: 21 Jan 13 - 05:06 AM Does anyone know what spa is in the lyrics. They say "instead if spa we'll drink brown ale". |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: MartinRyan Date: 21 Jan 13 - 05:15 AM Sean McMahon, in The Poolbeg Book of Irish Ballads writes: ... The "Spa" in the first verse refers to the fashionable nineteenth-century practice of drinking water naturally impregnated with sulphur and chalybeate from spa-wells. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Dave Hanson Date: 21 Jan 13 - 06:21 AM Is it sung to the double jig tune Garryowen ? reputedly General Custers favourite marching out tune but played as a quickstep. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: gnu Date: 21 Jan 13 - 06:40 AM Missed your last post, Jim. Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,Seayaker Date: 21 Jan 13 - 05:50 PM Garryowen is also the name of the evil tempered dog who is with the Citizen in the Cyclops episode of James Joyce's Ulysses. The Citizen (based on Michael Cusack) is a bigoted nationalist who can only see one point of view (hence the Cyclops allusion) and tries to draw Bloom into an argument. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Lighter Date: 31 Mar 15 - 06:05 PM Concerning the original lyrics, the best source appears to be Maurice Lenihan's "Limerick; Its History and Antiquities" (Dublin, 1866). Lenihan writes that around the year 1800, a gang of hell-raisers "made a noise in the old town; and the parish of St. John in particular rang with the echoes of their wild revelry, while they caused their own names and fame to be wedded to verse to the immortal air of 'Garryowen,' - and air which is heard with rapturous emotion by the Limerick man in whatever clime he may be placed, or under whatever circumstances its fond familiar tones may strike upon his ear. ...The words to which this air has been wedded contain allusions not only to the state of society as is existed in Garryowen in these days, but to certain local worthies, and principally the late John O'Connell, Esq., the proprietor of the Garryowen Brewery, who was deservedly much esteemed." To this account, Thomas Toomey and Henry Greensmyth's "An Antique and Storied Land: a History of the Parish of Donoughmore, Knockea, Roxborough and its Environs in County Limerick" (1991) adds that "Johnny Connell, whose family owned Garryowen brewery, ...was... mentioned by the Bard of Thomond [Michael Hogan] as being the leader of a gang of early 19th century bucks in [Hogan's poem] 'Drunken Thady and the Bishop's Lady.' He was buried by candlelight in Donoughmore Graveyard after his death in 1853." Lenihan gives, "THE ORIGINAL SONG OF GARRYOWEN... Let Bacchus' sons be not dismayed, But join with me each jovial blade; Come, booze, and sing, and lend your aid To help with me the chorus :— Instead of spa we'll drink brown ale, And pay the reckoning on the nail, No man for debt shall go to, jail From Garryowen in glory We are the boys that take delight in Smashing the Limerick lamps when lighting, Through the streets like sporters fighting And tearing all before us. Instead, &c. We'll break windows, we'll break doors, The watch knock down by threes and fours, - Then let the doctors work their cures, And tinker up our bruises. Instead, the. We'll beat the bailiffs, out of fun, We'll make the mayor and sheriffs run ; We are the boys no man dares dun, If he regards a whole skin. Instead, &c. Our hearts so stout have got us fame, For soon 'tis known from whence we came; Where'er we go they dread the name Of Garryowen in glory. Instead, &c. Johnny Connell's tall and straight; And in his limbs he is complete; He'll pitch a bar of any weight From Garryowen to Thomond-gate. Instead, &c. Garryowen is gone to wreck Since Johnny Connell went to Cork ; Though Harry O'Brien leapt over the dock In spite of judge and jury. Instead, &c. Lenihan's note informs us that, "Garryowen signifies 'John's Garden' - a suburb of Limerick in St. John's parish, in which in these times there was a public garden which the citizens were accustomed to frequent in great numbers.... The 'Nail' here mentioned is a sort of low pillar still extent in the Town-Hall, upon which payments used to be made in former times." |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Lighter Date: 31 Mar 15 - 06:41 PM A little more info, from T. Crofton Croker's "Popular Songs of Ireland" (1839). Sir Charles O'Donnell informed Croker in 1833 that "Mr. Connell (the Johnny Connell of Garryowen) and Darby O'Brien (some versions have Harry, others Jerry O'Brien) were two squireens in Limerick, and, about the time the song was written, between the years 1770 and 1780, devil-may-care sort of fellows, who defied all authority: they were the sons of brewers; the former is still alive, and has, or had, until very lately, a large brewery in Limerick." A "squireen" holds a small estate. Croker also quotes from a London weekly of 1822: "The celebrated Garryowen forms part of the filthy suburbs of Limerick. The former character of its inhabitants is said to be well described in a verse of their own old song: In Garryowen we'll drink nut-brown ale, An score de reckonin on de nail ; No man for debt shall go to gaol From Garryowen in glory whu! [a yell.] "Some years ago the Garryowen boys, headed by a young gentleman of respectable family, did what they listed in every department of heyday wildness and devilment : they were the half-terror, half-admiration of the surrounding communities. ...[T]he old leader, to whom I have alluded, is now a most respectable quiet citizen, about sixty, famed for propriety and urbanity of demeanour, and at the head of one of the most thriving mercantile concerns in the town. My antiquary (Mr. Geoffrey Foote) pointed him out and introduced me to him, the other day, in the streets ; and I futilely sought, in the grave and generous expression of his features, in the even tone of his voice, and in the Quaker cut and coloured suit which he wore, for any characteristic of the former Georgie Robinson of an Irish Porteus mob. Neither age nor change of habits had altered the tall and muscular figure which, in the redolence and buoyancy of youth, must have been equal to any achievement of physical prowess." Thomond Gate and Garryowen, Croker says, were on opposite sides of Limerick. Croker's version of the song is identical to Lenihan's. The words are easier to sing to the somewhat simpler tune of Aird's "Auld Bessy" (1788) than they are to the fuller modern version in "Harlequin Amulet." See the other current "Garryowen" thread for pedantic details. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: gnu Date: 01 Apr 15 - 05:56 AM Great stuff! Thanks, Lighter. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Lighter Date: 01 Apr 15 - 09:09 AM Don't mention it. Sorry I haven't organized everything more clearly and concisely. To bring words and melody together: The words of "Garryowen" were probably written about 1780 to something very like the "Auld Bessy" tune, not printed till 1795 (not "1788" as stated). The tune was being called "Cory Owen," "Cary Owen," and "Garrione" within four years of being identified only as "Harlequin Amulet," after the pantomime in that popularized it in December, 1800. Surely the Irish title wasn't due to a local Limerick song whose lyrics seem to have been unknown elsewhere for decades. Without broadside printings, the "Bacchus' sons" words could not have been widely known. No copy of those lyrics appears in the Bodleian. Custer's widow, Elizabeth Bacon Custer, gives both words and tune as known to the 7th Cavalry in her "Following the Guidon" (1890). The stanzas about the local character Johnny Connell have understandably disappeared. Otherwise the 7th's song is as in Croker and Lenihan. Croker notes that the "spa" in the song refers to "The spa of Castle Connell, about six miles from Limerick." Lenihan, by the way, also gives a quite different song written to the tune in 1811 - as well as translations of the original into Latin and Greek! The tune, called "Auld Bessie" by Scotsman James Aird in 1795, was being called "Cory Owen," "Cary Owen," and "Garrione" within four years of being identified only as "Harlequin Amulet," after the pantomime in that popularized it in December, 1800. Surely the Irish *title* wasn't due to a local Limerick song whose lyrics seem to have been unknown elsewhere for decades. Whether the melody originated in Ireland, Scotland, or elsewhere is probably unknowable. "Auld Bessy" is Scots. James Byrne, the musical director of "Harlequin Amulet," evidently thought the tune sounded Welsh, but it was described in 1801 as "The Favorite Irish Air Performed on the Harp in Harlequin Amulet" (Musical Journal, I [Baltimore, 1804]). John Peacock's "Tunes" (ca1805) has a version arranged for Northumbrian small pipes that he calls "Newmarket Races." http://tunearch.org/wiki/Newmarket_Races But Peacock's arrangement may have been influenced by the newly popular "Harlequin" version. A distinct but structurally related tune appeared as "Horse and Away to Newmarket" in the manuscript of James Biggins of Leeds, dated to "1779." It doesn't *sound* much like "Garryowen," though one can see the similarity. http://www.village-music-project.org.uk/abc/biggins.abc But the tune's place of origin is less important than the fact that it has been identified with Garryowen and Limerick since at least the beginning of the 19th century. Thanks especially to "They Died with their Boots On," it is now widely associated with George Armstrong Custer. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Lighter Date: 01 Apr 15 - 12:08 PM Besides the identity of Harry (or Jerry or Darby) O'Brien, it would be good to know when John Connell was born (allegedly ca1762) and when and why he "went to Cork." The song must have been written after that. I believe that in the 18th century young men of the gentry were usually sent to the university between the ages of sixteen and eighteen. Any Connell (or O'Brien) genealogists out there? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Lighter Date: 29 Apr 21 - 02:16 PM Anything new on "Garryowen"? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 14 Sep 22 - 04:15 AM RE: Harlequin Amulet – "A favorite DANCE, Performed by Mr. Weippert* at the Theatre Royal Drury Lane In the NEW Pantomime of “HARLEQUIN AMULET”. Arrang'd as a RONDO for the P-Forte or Harp by M.Latour**. DUBLIN. Publish'd by (HIME) at his Musical Circulating Library (No.34) College Green–. Price 1s.1d." *Johann Michael Weippert (1775-1831): Harpist. Younger brother of composer and bandmaster John Erhradt Weippert (1766-1823.) **More on Jean Théodore Latour (1766–1837) here: Origins: Off She Goes |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 19 Oct 23 - 12:00 AM Prompted by: Tune Req: Irish Tune from Daniel Boone Series and what are the earliest references for Ireland & North America: “CHARLESTON, March 16 Hybernian Society ...After dinner, the subjoined TOASTS were drank with much enthusiasm, accompanied by the enchanting melody of a Select Band of Music (under the direction of Mr. Gallagher) that made each heart respond with delight to the native strains of Erin: ...13. The Army and Navy of the U. States. Garyone.” [Alexandria Gazette, Commercial & Political, 31 March 1813] |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 19 Oct 23 - 12:01 AM Generations: “They* halted at Woodford, the seat of their venerated Lieut. Col. Gough, who entertained his brave companions in arms, from whom he was about to separate, with an elegant repast laid out in tents on the lawn. They entered the city amidst the ringing of bells, and the enthusiastic acclamations of their fellow-citizens, marching to their own civic tune of 'Garryowen,' which, as one of our most favorite national airs, has so often in the late war led on our countrymen to victory.” [p.491] “SIR HUGH GOUGH, K. C. B. fourth son of Colonel Gough, of the city of Limerick Militia, was born at the family mansion-house at Woodsdown, near Limerick. He first entered as Ensign in the City of Limerick Militia, from which he volunteered into the 78th, of which he was made Adjutant at the age of 17. He afterwards joined the 87th regiment in which he held a distinguished command for six years and a-half in the Peninsula. The French having made a breach in the walls of Tariffa in Spain, to which they had laid siege for some time with ten thousand men, endeavoured to force their way into the town; but the gallant Sir Hugh advanced to the breach, where drawing his sword and throwing his scabbard from him, he called on his men to stand by him until the enemy should walk over their bodies. The heart-cheering air of Garryowen was instantly struck up, and the firmness and courage of his brave followers proved irresistible: the French were repulsed with great slaughter, and raised the siege next morning, upon which Sir Hugh was made Governor of the place.” [lxiii] [The History, Topography and Antiquities of the County and City of Limerick, Vol.II, Fitzgerald, M'Gregor, 1827] *The Royal County of Limerick Regiment (Militia) returning from the rebellion of 1798. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Thompson Date: 20 Oct 23 - 01:21 AM Custer et al were genocidal criminals, and shamingly most of them (including Custer, whose mother was a Casey if I remember right) were of recent Irish extraction. They are a classic example of a brutalised population emigrating and themselves becoming brutes. Some explanations: The Treaty of Limerick between the ambitious princeling William of Orange and his father-in-law James II was signed using the Treaty Stone as a base for leaning the document on. A condition for peace was that the Irish who had sided with James would emigrate en masse. As soon as they had done so, the treaty was broken and Ireland was in for centuries of horror. The "Wild Geese" - the soldiers who left the country - made for France and Spain and were eagerly taken into the armies of those countries, where most were killed within two years. You'll find a Wikipedia article about the Limerick suburb of Garryowen. The notorious 7th Cavalry took up the song. There's an inspiring book about the Ogala Sioux leader Crazy Horse and Custer by Stephen Ambrose - an essential read. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 20 Oct 23 - 03:13 PM Another long one. 1867 American Fenian mash-up of Fitzgerald, McGregor, Lenihan & Croker with the 1690s origins legend greatly expanded: “POETRY. Written for The Irish Republic. Songs of the Old Towns. NO. II “GARRYOWEN.” What Irish man or woman has not heard of “Garryowen?” It is one of the most popular of the Irish airs. It has made the Irish soldier invincible on many a bloody field, with its defiant notes. It has cheered him on the weary march. It has hushed him to sleep in the bivouac, and sent him, in dreams, to wander through the “green fields of holy Ireland.” The Irish soldier in the English pay has forgot his country's wrongs, and fought his tyrant's battles, to the tune of “Garryowen.” The Old Brigade, in charging up the heights at Fontenoy, shouting, “Remember Limerick and English perfidy!” may have swept down those veterans of Lord Hay to the time of “Garryowen.” It may have nerved the sinews and the souls of the men and the women who swept back the invaders from Limerick's “old town wall.” The air is very old, and was sung through the streets of Limerick, according to Crofton Croker*, two hundred years ago by the “bucks” who flourished in the city and county, and who used to make night hideous with their mad riots. When he city of Limerick was first lit with lamps, one hundred and seventy years ago, the old song, now known as “Garryowen,” was then a new song, which took the place of an old one. Scores of armed bucks and squireens, with the boys of the town, used to march through the streets of Limerick, singing and carrying their threats into execution–– “We are the boys that take delight in Smashing the Limerick lamps when lighting, Through the streets like sporters fighting, And tearing all before us, etc. “We'll break windows, we'll break doors, The watch knock down by threes and fours; Then let the doctors work their cures, And tinker up our bruises,” etc. It may be safe to infer that the watch retreated in good order before the charge of a couple of hundred drunken, half-armed, and reckless “old town boys,” led on by the bucks. As in “Garryowen,” the watch, even down to our day, always make themselves scarce when a row takes place at night in the streets of our cities. In Fitzgerald and McGregor's “History of Limerick,” it is stated that “the tradesmen formerly marched in grotesque procession on Midsummer's-day, (an old Pagan rite,) and that the day generally ended in a terrible fight between the Garryowen and Thomond Gate boys––two sections of the city.” This latter part of the rite (the fight) was not Pagan, but Christian. Let us hope that an Irish army, fighting for Ireland's rights, and marching to the air of “Garryowen,” will drive the foe before them again, as our fathers did of old; and that the next time the enemy is driven, it won't be across the Shannon, but across the Channel. “GARRYOWEN.”. (Same lyrics as Jim Dixon posted above) The following are the words of the old song. It may be interesting to many of our readers, for the sake of “auld lang syne:” (Lenihan lyrics follow)” [Poetry, The Irish Republic (Chicago)**, 10 august 1867] *See Lighter's T. Crofton Croker post above. Seems a bit of a stretch, but that's just me. **Founded 1867 by The Fenian Brotherhood. Chicago had the 4th largest Irish population in the States. From 1864-66 some Chicago Fenians declared war on England then invaded Canada & the Dakota Territories, or tried to anyways. PS: The last Confederate general to surrender in that other rebellion was also the slave owning second principal chief of the Cherokee Nation. There are bad Indians and good Irish and worse individuals. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Lighter Date: 20 Oct 23 - 03:23 PM Interesting but, as you suggest, mostly fanciful. Almost nothing verifiable that we didn't already know. The posited size of Johnny Connell's crew, however, is a little startling. How did Limerick survive long enough to lend its name to a minor verse genre? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Lighter Date: 21 Oct 23 - 02:08 PM Charles Lever, novelist, "Charles O'Malley, the Irish Dragoon" (1841): "Now, I like Garryowen, When I hear it at home, But it's not half so sweet when you're going to be kilt." |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Thompson Date: 21 Oct 23 - 02:45 PM Street fights were a popular pastime in Irish towns in the 18th century. It's getting a little like that again. In Dublin, the little Ascendancy pups known as the Pinking Dindies liked to "pink" working-class boys with their swords, shoulder them off the pavements, etc, often leading to mass brawls between "Town" (the working class boys) and "Gown" (the Trinity College boys). The Pinking Dindies had an advantage in carrying swords, which were not allowed to the working classes. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 23 Oct 23 - 04:52 PM Trivia: Seems me grand-auntie was an amateur beer historian; and W11 will run Family Tree Maker 7.0, all 48MB of it! Lot's of back story but nothing new really: Part I: Male Toxicity - The 1770-80 lyrics turned on Crofton-Croker's 1839 quotes of author John Banim's 1822 letter in the London Literary Register. The original wasn't retrievable in the 1990s, still ain't in 2023, so far. Everything before that is instrumental marching music or ball room. If the lyrics did exist, they would be the “cadence” (jody) versions. ...a terrible fight between the Garryowen and Thomond Gate boys––two sections of the city. This latter part of the rite (the fight) was not Pagan, but Christian. [Lenihan] The “City” of Limerick was Newtown Pery. Thomond Gate was old Norman Englishtown, equal parts Catholic & Protestant. Garryowen was native Irishtown, all Catholic. The Fitzgerald & O'Connell blood feud was as old as dirt. The City Militia was almost all Garryowen Boys, hence the large number of combatants. Johnny O'Connell (c.1757 – c.1835) was what old-school Euro-Bahamians used to call a “chippy,” ie: a chip on his shoulder, (American.) Or the more toxic/violent “coat-dragger” (Irish.) The City Brewery (1739) was the first in Limerick. That would be the earliest for any brewers or brewers' sons to be hanging about at the fair. More to follow... |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 23 Oct 23 - 05:00 PM Garryowen Part II: Porter - The ultimate betrayal came with Johnny O'Connell's sister marrying a Fitzgerald and buying out the family brewery. At Milford, the seat of her son Connell Fitzgerald, Esq., in an advance age, Mrs. Fitzgerald, sister of the late John Connell, Esq. of this city, brewer. [Deaths, Limerick Chronicle, 19/03/1836] Wine & Spirit Merchants., Fitzgerald & Co. Garryowen Brewery. [Slater's National Commercial Directory of Ireland, 1846] On Saturday last, John Fitzgerald, Esq., T.C. proprietor of the Garryowen Brewery... [Deaths, Limerick Chronicle, 11/4/1860] ...the old established one at Garryowen, of which “Johnny Connell”, celebrated in song, was the owner, and which now belongs to a lady of his family. (1866) [Lenihan] Mr. Fitzgerald served his time to the best brewer in London... (Garryowen Brewery, 1872) [Keane, Limerick Breweries, The Old Limerick Journal, 1981] Note: The 100th anniversary, the Fitzgerald's closed the doors for good in 1881. Cousin Daniel "The Liberator" O'Connell and old man Guinness did not play nice together. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Thompson Date: 26 Oct 23 - 03:30 AM Who was Daniel a cousin of, and how did he and Arthur not play nicely? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 26 Oct 23 - 03:57 PM Not sure how it all fits. The old program is weird; the file is a mess and every other child is a Mary or a John. Nevermind the rabbit hole of sorting Peelites, Whigs, Radicals, Repealers, Liberals &c &c &c. One name that does keep cropping up is George John O'Connell (1801-1853,) Johnny O'Connell's second child and only son. Seems he was the political one. There's even less on Guinness – O'Connell. Daniel's son did own the Dublin O'Connell Brewery. So there was the m-o-n-e-y. But then, the Garryowen Fitzgerald's and every other small brewery in Ireland (and the world) had/has that same problem. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 26 Oct 23 - 04:01 PM “MADAME MARA. Madame Mara, in one of her professional trips with Daly, the Dublin manager, to his provincial theatre in Ireland, arrived at Limerick, where her appearance and vocal powers were announced with pompous panegyric, in the play-bills; and all the fashion of the town and country were assembled to see and hear her. The upper gallery of that theatre is generally crowded with a boisterous mob of fellows from a faunbourg of Limerick, called Garry Owen, and scorning the ceremony of paying for their admission, they generally cudgelled their way to the upper region, and knocked down all door-keepers who presumed to oppose their entrance. Their criticism is usually exercised in a way not less discordant; for whenever any thing displeases them in the performance, or when such tunes as they call for are not played by the orchestra, about an hundred fellows commence such a sonnata with their shillelahs upon the boarded front of the gallery, as to stun all powers of hearing. There is a favourite Irish air, composed by some piper of this mob, and called Garry Owen, which is constantly ground at present by all the barrel-organs, syrinæs, and hurly burlies in London. Madame Mara came forward, honoured by the plaudits of the fashionable part of the audience, and had proceeded half way through her first song in all the elegant variations and quavers of an Italian bravura, In an instant the cudgells of the upper gallery commenced their astonishing concert, and the yell of “Garry Owen! Garry Owen!" was vociferated from the gods above. Madame Mara, almost terrified into fits, retreated by the prompter's side, and was there met by Mr. Daly, who endeavoured to persuade her to resume her song. She returned, attempted it again, was again terrified by the war-whoop aloft; and again retreated. Mr. Daly met her the second time, and endeavoured to encourage her with, "My dear madam! pray don't be alarmed! consider you are surrounded, and I shall be ruined if you don't go through the part." But the affrighted Italian dared not proceed, but answered: "Oh! Mistere Daly, Mistere Daly, 'tis Mistere Owen they call for; pray send dem Mistere Owen, or dey will pull down de house." [The Spirit of Irish Wit, or Post-Chaise Companion, By Irish Wit, 1812] |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Lighter Date: 26 Oct 23 - 04:31 PM > There is a favourite Irish air, composed by some piper of this mob, and called Garry Owen, which is constantly ground at present by all the barrel-organs, syrinæs, and hurly burlies in London. Significant - though "Auld Bessy" is unmentioned. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 27 Oct 23 - 12:11 AM I'm reasonably sure the Auld Bessie connection is a product of the internet age. The 18th-19th century titles are one of a baker's dozen spellings of Garryowen. Much bigger problem is an 1812 “Madame Mara of Drury Lane.” – The Drury burned to the ground in 1809 and the Madame was no where near England or Ireland from 1802-1819. Would you believe 1792..?!? “The harsh receptions accorded Mrs. Billington failed to deter one of her rivals, Madame Mara of Drury Lane, from performing at the Limerick Theatre Royal during the next summer. She appeared along with Daly's Crow Street troupe for Assize Week, 20–25 August 1792. This year the playhouse rather than the players aroused public condemnation... The same critic blamed the Manager also for the 'disorderly and insolent behavior in the gallery' where the spectators 'resemble Savages'. If the Manager had shown the proper initiative and called on the 'magistrates', they would surely have assisted in preserving decent manners throughout the house.” [Clark, W.S., The Limerick Stage 1736-1800, Pt.Two, 1965] Gertrud Elisabeth Mara (1749–1833) |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 19 Oct 23 - 12:00 AM Prompted by: Tune Req: Irish Tune from Daniel Boone Series and what are the earliest references for Ireland & North America: “CHARLESTON, March 16 Hybernian Society ...After dinner, the subjoined TOASTS were drank with much enthusiasm, accompanied by the enchanting melody of a Select Band of Music (under the direction of Mr. Gallagher) that made each heart respond with delight to the native strains of Erin: ...13. The Army and Navy of the U. States. Garyone.” [Alexandria Gazette, Commercial & Political, 31 March 1813] |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 19 Oct 23 - 12:01 AM Generations: “They* halted at Woodford, the seat of their venerated Lieut. Col. Gough, who entertained his brave companions in arms, from whom he was about to separate, with an elegant repast laid out in tents on the lawn. They entered the city amidst the ringing of bells, and the enthusiastic acclamations of their fellow-citizens, marching to their own civic tune of 'Garryowen,' which, as one of our most favorite national airs, has so often in the late war led on our countrymen to victory.” [p.491] “SIR HUGH GOUGH, K. C. B. fourth son of Colonel Gough, of the city of Limerick Militia, was born at the family mansion-house at Woodsdown, near Limerick. He first entered as Ensign in the City of Limerick Militia, from which he volunteered into the 78th, of which he was made Adjutant at the age of 17. He afterwards joined the 87th regiment in which he held a distinguished command for six years and a-half in the Peninsula. The French having made a breach in the walls of Tariffa in Spain, to which they had laid siege for some time with ten thousand men, endeavoured to force their way into the town; but the gallant Sir Hugh advanced to the breach, where drawing his sword and throwing his scabbard from him, he called on his men to stand by him until the enemy should walk over their bodies. The heart-cheering air of Garryowen was instantly struck up, and the firmness and courage of his brave followers proved irresistible: the French were repulsed with great slaughter, and raised the siege next morning, upon which Sir Hugh was made Governor of the place.” [lxiii] [The History, Topography and Antiquities of the County and City of Limerick, Vol.II, Fitzgerald, M'Gregor, 1827] *The Royal County of Limerick Regiment (Militia) returning from the rebellion of 1798. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 20 Oct 23 - 03:13 PM Another long one. 1867 American Fenian mash-up of Fitzgerald, McGregor, Lenihan & Croker with the 1690s origins legend greatly expanded: “POETRY. Written for The Irish Republic. Songs of the Old Towns. NO. II “GARRYOWEN.” What Irish man or woman has not heard of “Garryowen?” It is one of the most popular of the Irish airs. It has made the Irish soldier invincible on many a bloody field, with its defiant notes. It has cheered him on the weary march. It has hushed him to sleep in the bivouac, and sent him, in dreams, to wander through the “green fields of holy Ireland.” The Irish soldier in the English pay has forgot his country's wrongs, and fought his tyrant's battles, to the tune of “Garryowen.” The Old Brigade, in charging up the heights at Fontenoy, shouting, “Remember Limerick and English perfidy!” may have swept down those veterans of Lord Hay to the time of “Garryowen.” It may have nerved the sinews and the souls of the men and the women who swept back the invaders from Limerick's “old town wall.” The air is very old, and was sung through the streets of Limerick, according to Crofton Croker*, two hundred years ago by the “bucks” who flourished in the city and county, and who used to make night hideous with their mad riots. When he city of Limerick was first lit with lamps, one hundred and seventy years ago, the old song, now known as “Garryowen,” was then a new song, which took the place of an old one. Scores of armed bucks and squireens, with the boys of the town, used to march through the streets of Limerick, singing and carrying their threats into execution–– “We are the boys that take delight in Smashing the Limerick lamps when lighting, Through the streets like sporters fighting, And tearing all before us, etc. “We'll break windows, we'll break doors, The watch knock down by threes and fours; Then let the doctors work their cures, And tinker up our bruises,” etc. It may be safe to infer that the watch retreated in good order before the charge of a couple of hundred drunken, half-armed, and reckless “old town boys,” led on by the bucks. As in “Garryowen,” the watch, even down to our day, always make themselves scarce when a row takes place at night in the streets of our cities. In Fitzgerald and McGregor's “History of Limerick,” it is stated that “the tradesmen formerly marched in grotesque procession on Midsummer's-day, (an old Pagan rite,) and that the day generally ended in a terrible fight between the Garryowen and Thomond Gate boys––two sections of the city.” This latter part of the rite (the fight) was not Pagan, but Christian. Let us hope that an Irish army, fighting for Ireland's rights, and marching to the air of “Garryowen,” will drive the foe before them again, as our fathers did of old; and that the next time the enemy is driven, it won't be across the Shannon, but across the Channel. “GARRYOWEN.”. (Same lyrics as Jim Dixon posted above) The following are the words of the old song. It may be interesting to many of our readers, for the sake of “auld lang syne:” (Lenihan lyrics follow)” [Poetry, The Irish Republic (Chicago)**, 10 august 1867] *See Lighter's T. Crofton Croker post above. Seems a bit of a stretch, but that's just me. **Founded 1867 by The Fenian Brotherhood. Chicago had the 4th largest Irish population in the States. From 1864-66 some Chicago Fenians declared war on England then invaded Canada & the Dakota Territories, or tried to anyways. PS: The last Confederate general to surrender in that other rebellion was also the slave owning second principal chief of the Cherokee Nation. There are bad Indians and good Irish and worse individuals. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Lighter Date: 20 Oct 23 - 03:23 PM Interesting but, as you suggest, mostly fanciful. Almost nothing verifiable that we didn't already know. The posited size of Johnny Connell's crew, however, is a little startling. How did Limerick survive long enough to lend its name to a minor verse genre? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Lighter Date: 21 Oct 23 - 02:08 PM Charles Lever, novelist, "Charles O'Malley, the Irish Dragoon" (1841): "Now, I like Garryowen, When I hear it at home, But it's not half so sweet when you're going to be kilt." |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Thompson Date: 20 Oct 23 - 01:21 AM Custer et al were genocidal criminals, and shamingly most of them (including Custer, whose mother was a Casey if I remember right) were of recent Irish extraction. They are a classic example of a brutalised population emigrating and themselves becoming brutes. Some explanations: The Treaty of Limerick between the ambitious princeling William of Orange and his father-in-law James II was signed using the Treaty Stone as a base for leaning the document on. A condition for peace was that the Irish who had sided with James would emigrate en masse. As soon as they had done so, the treaty was broken and Ireland was in for centuries of horror. The "Wild Geese" - the soldiers who left the country - made for France and Spain and were eagerly taken into the armies of those countries, where most were killed within two years. You'll find a Wikipedia article about the Limerick suburb of Garryowen. The notorious 7th Cavalry took up the song. There's an inspiring book about the Ogala Sioux leader Crazy Horse and Custer by Stephen Ambrose - an essential read. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Thompson Date: 21 Oct 23 - 02:45 PM Street fights were a popular pastime in Irish towns in the 18th century. It's getting a little like that again. In Dublin, the little Ascendancy pups known as the Pinking Dindies liked to "pink" working-class boys with their swords, shoulder them off the pavements, etc, often leading to mass brawls between "Town" (the working class boys) and "Gown" (the Trinity College boys). The Pinking Dindies had an advantage in carrying swords, which were not allowed to the working classes. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 23 Oct 23 - 04:52 PM Trivia: Seems me grand-auntie was an amateur beer historian; and W11 will run Family Tree Maker 7.0, all 48MB of it! Lot's of back story but nothing new really: Part I: Male Toxicity - The 1770-80 lyrics turned on Crofton-Croker's 1839 quotes of author John Banim's 1822 letter in the London Literary Register. The original wasn't retrievable in the 1990s, still ain't in 2023, so far. Everything before that is instrumental marching music or ball room. If the lyrics did exist, they would be the “cadence” (jody) versions. ...a terrible fight between the Garryowen and Thomond Gate boys––two sections of the city. This latter part of the rite (the fight) was not Pagan, but Christian. [Lenihan] The “City” of Limerick was Newtown Pery. Thomond Gate was old Norman Englishtown, equal parts Catholic & Protestant. Garryowen was native Irishtown, all Catholic. The Fitzgerald & O'Connell blood feud was as old as dirt. The City Militia was almost all Garryowen Boys, hence the large number of combatants. Johnny O'Connell (c.1757 – c.1835) was what old-school Euro-Bahamians used to call a “chippy,” ie: a chip on his shoulder, (American.) Or the more toxic/violent “coat-dragger” (Irish.) The City Brewery (1739) was the first in Limerick. That would be the earliest for any brewers or brewers' sons to be hanging about at the fair. More to follow... |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 23 Oct 23 - 05:00 PM Garryowen Part II: Porter - The ultimate betrayal came with Johnny O'Connell's sister marrying a Fitzgerald and buying out the family brewery. At Milford, the seat of her son Connell Fitzgerald, Esq., in an advance age, Mrs. Fitzgerald, sister of the late John Connell, Esq. of this city, brewer. [Deaths, Limerick Chronicle, 19/03/1836] Wine & Spirit Merchants., Fitzgerald & Co. Garryowen Brewery. [Slater's National Commercial Directory of Ireland, 1846] On Saturday last, John Fitzgerald, Esq., T.C. proprietor of the Garryowen Brewery... [Deaths, Limerick Chronicle, 11/4/1860] ...the old established one at Garryowen, of which “Johnny Connell”, celebrated in song, was the owner, and which now belongs to a lady of his family. (1866) [Lenihan] Mr. Fitzgerald served his time to the best brewer in London... (Garryowen Brewery, 1872) [Keane, Limerick Breweries, The Old Limerick Journal, 1981] Note: The 100th anniversary, the Fitzgerald's closed the doors for good in 1881. Cousin Daniel "The Liberator" O'Connell and old man Guinness did not play nice together. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 26 Oct 23 - 03:57 PM Not sure how it all fits. The old program is weird; the file is a mess and every other child is a Mary or a John. Nevermind the rabbit hole of sorting Peelites, Whigs, Radicals, Repealers, Liberals &c &c &c. One name that does keep cropping up is George John O'Connell (1801-1853,) Johnny O'Connell's second child and only son. Seems he was the political one. There's even less on Guinness – O'Connell. Daniel's son did own the Dublin O'Connell Brewery. So there was the m-o-n-e-y. But then, the Garryowen Fitzgerald's and every other small brewery in Ireland (and the world) had/has that same problem. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 26 Oct 23 - 04:01 PM “MADAME MARA. Madame Mara, in one of her professional trips with Daly, the Dublin manager, to his provincial theatre in Ireland, arrived at Limerick, where her appearance and vocal powers were announced with pompous panegyric, in the play-bills; and all the fashion of the town and country were assembled to see and hear her. The upper gallery of that theatre is generally crowded with a boisterous mob of fellows from a faunbourg of Limerick, called Garry Owen, and scorning the ceremony of paying for their admission, they generally cudgelled their way to the upper region, and knocked down all door-keepers who presumed to oppose their entrance. Their criticism is usually exercised in a way not less discordant; for whenever any thing displeases them in the performance, or when such tunes as they call for are not played by the orchestra, about an hundred fellows commence such a sonnata with their shillelahs upon the boarded front of the gallery, as to stun all powers of hearing. There is a favourite Irish air, composed by some piper of this mob, and called Garry Owen, which is constantly ground at present by all the barrel-organs, syrinæs, and hurly burlies in London. Madame Mara came forward, honoured by the plaudits of the fashionable part of the audience, and had proceeded half way through her first song in all the elegant variations and quavers of an Italian bravura, In an instant the cudgells of the upper gallery commenced their astonishing concert, and the yell of “Garry Owen! Garry Owen!" was vociferated from the gods above. Madame Mara, almost terrified into fits, retreated by the prompter's side, and was there met by Mr. Daly, who endeavoured to persuade her to resume her song. She returned, attempted it again, was again terrified by the war-whoop aloft; and again retreated. Mr. Daly met her the second time, and endeavoured to encourage her with, "My dear madam! pray don't be alarmed! consider you are surrounded, and I shall be ruined if you don't go through the part." But the affrighted Italian dared not proceed, but answered: "Oh! Mistere Daly, Mistere Daly, 'tis Mistere Owen they call for; pray send dem Mistere Owen, or dey will pull down de house." [The Spirit of Irish Wit, or Post-Chaise Companion, By Irish Wit, 1812] |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 27 Oct 23 - 12:11 AM I'm reasonably sure the Auld Bessie connection is a product of the internet age. The 18th-19th century titles are one of a baker's dozen spellings of Garryowen. Much bigger problem is an 1812 “Madame Mara of Drury Lane.” – The Drury burned to the ground in 1809 and the Madame was no where near England or Ireland from 1802-1819. Would you believe 1792..?!? “The harsh receptions accorded Mrs. Billington failed to deter one of her rivals, Madame Mara of Drury Lane, from performing at the Limerick Theatre Royal during the next summer. She appeared along with Daly's Crow Street troupe for Assize Week, 20–25 August 1792. This year the playhouse rather than the players aroused public condemnation... The same critic blamed the Manager also for the 'disorderly and insolent behavior in the gallery' where the spectators 'resemble Savages'. If the Manager had shown the proper initiative and called on the 'magistrates', they would surely have assisted in preserving decent manners throughout the house.” [Clark, W.S., The Limerick Stage 1736-1800, Pt.Two, 1965] Gertrud Elisabeth Mara (1749–1833) |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Lighter Date: 26 Oct 23 - 04:31 PM > There is a favourite Irish air, composed by some piper of this mob, and called Garry Owen, which is constantly ground at present by all the barrel-organs, syrinæs, and hurly burlies in London. Significant - though "Auld Bessy" is unmentioned. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Thompson Date: 26 Oct 23 - 03:30 AM Who was Daniel a cousin of, and how did he and Arthur not play nicely? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Garryowen From: Lighter Date: 04 Oct 25 - 08:46 PM Very surprisingly, the earliest known mention of the title "Garryowen," more or less, appears to be in the United States. The March 21, 1799, issue of the "Aurora [Pa.] General Advertiser" describes a St. Patrick's Day celebration in Philadelphia held on the 18th. The music played included "Patrick's Day in the Morning," "Erin g' Bragh [sic]," "Kouleen [sic]," "Battle of Aughrim," "Rights of Man," "The Girl I Left Behind Me," and "Garry O Na' Glorah." If the last isn't "Garryowen in Glory," what is it? Almost as remarkable is the mention, in the La Harpe, Ill. "La Harper" (May 28, 1886) of the evidently identical "Garry O'er Na Gloria." Most interesting is that the (faux-Irish?) title 'Garry O Na' Glorah" seems to suggest that the familiar lyrics as well as the tune were known in the U.S. as early as 1799. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 05 Oct 25 - 10:31 PM According to the usual sources, Garry Owen na Glora is an alternate chorus. Jim Dixon posted the 'other' Garryowen lyrics above. By my count, that makes twenty (20) variations on the main title… so far. 1792 – The title gets a mention in the Madame Mara incident in Limerick but, so far, the earliest coverage of that doesn't show up in print until 1812, London. 1797 – Corrie Owen? “A Duett, for two Performers on One Piano Forte, by the most Eminant Composers” Note written on front cover states: “made into duetts by Hook” Also published in London. 1799 – First mention of the title playing in the U.S.A. 1822 – John Banim posts lyrics to the Literary Register, London but earliest mention of them, so far, doesn't show until Crofton-Croker, 1839… London… again. Kinda thin on Irish sources proper, now that you mention it. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Garryowen From: Lighter Date: 06 Oct 25 - 11:13 AM Phil, Google Books displays no readable text and gives the title simply as "A Duett, for Two Performers on One Pianoforte." The British Library copy is not online. Where do you see the associated title "Corrie Owen"? Garth Notley writes at his invaluable site https://www.regencydances.org/paper039.php#cary : " [T]he earliest publication of the tune I can discern was in James Aird's Glaswegian c.1788 'Selection of Scotch, English, Irish and Foreign Airs', Vol 3 where it was issued under the name 'Auld Bessy'. ...Unlike 'Paddy [O'Rafferty]', there's no hint in Aird's publication that he considered it to be of Irish origin. The next two publications that I can confirm are both from Dublin under the name 'The Garyon'; it can be found in 'Cooke's Collection of Favorite Country Dances for the present year 1797' (see Figure 7, middle) and in 'Hime's Collection of Favorite Country Dances for the present year 1797'. The name 'Garyon' was subsequently distorted to 'Cary Owen' [etc.]...each of which appeared in London publications of the tune around the year 1802. The tune was also used in a popular 1800 stage production at Drury Lane named 'Harlequin Amulet, or the Majic of Mona,' this in turn resulted in several London publications of the tune being issued under the name 'Harlequin Amulet'. The single most common name for the tune in London, especially after 1802, was 'Cary Owen'." And note well: "... [S]everal authorities ascribe the first publication of this tune to a c.1785 London publication issued by Edward Light named 'Introduction to the Art of Playing on the Harp-Lute & Apollo-Lyre.' Light's publication could have included this tune, but as far as I can discern it was first published in 1811 not 1785 (e.g. as advertised in the 'Morning Post' for the 2nd November 1811). The Harp-Lute itself seems not to have been invented until 1795, I'm fairly sure that Light was not significant to the early history of our tune. The score for 'Harlequin Amulet' might have been printed in London c.1800 (I can't confirm this), but our tune was certainly arranged as a Rondo in Dublin and printed by Hime a year or two later under the name 'Gary Owen'. The first London publication I can actually confirm is that of William Campbell in his 1801 16th Book under the name 'Garey Owen' (see Figure 7, bottom). Campbell described the tune as 'Harlequin Amulet or the Majic of Mona, by Jackson of Cork'." Notley seems not to mention the title "Garryowen," nor that it may have been the original form of "The Garyon" rather than the other way round. Allegedly "Garyon" is a surname originating in Connaught, but I' suspicious: I find only one online source that asserts this. FWIW, Notley's conclusion that Light's book on the harp-lute wasn't published till 1811 is supported by its absence from the enormous "Eighteenth-Century Collections Online" (available through many libraries). |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Garryowen From: Rex Date: 06 Oct 25 - 11:48 AM Thanks to Lighter for finding this. It predates Garryowen in my sources of tunes in the U.S. by 25 years. I am unable to find my notes about one Captain, Foster I think, who heard the tune in Cincinnati in 1824. I regret that I cannot find the source for this but I believe you two are just the guys to ask. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 06 Oct 25 - 11:52 AM Hmmm, works on my set up. Found another but the googlebooks link is too long for a clicky. copypasta: https://books.googleusercontent.com/books/content?req=AKW5Qad0UOVDDzBLIhC1kJnvPbxOLVf0Dja4_mEkR9CoI_bKYHLjMOsCfjLnIxS0M7ZZuflYo9kUd2S7uSVKBR8ErwIk-qJiqD0BRqlNq6dL4TN_dop6Dsj7tj9xEqKI8gLG5LSXB6iFBBygMPP_Xo9wh_oabzyIGDzTv-0K5j1-CB2B7ItyjScJfQKAfLGlkVdx1_YPP6fhCvUPF2-A4IFtUU3tCZl3BJ0S8IviXsw3aeuNkc41pyMXo6HQwAgBnt2HSb6qjCkgOhg2t4630mYzWYrInhmtOQ Song. No.4, music only, no lyrics. Here's the whole list... so far: Cary One Caryone Cary Owen Caryowen Corrie Owen Cory Owen Garad-Eogan le Atrugad Garey Owen Garrey Owen Garrione Garry O'er Na Gloria Garry O Na' Glorah Garry Owen Garryowen Garry Owen na Glora Gary Owen Garyone Garyowen Geary Owen Gharraí Eoin |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 06 Oct 25 - 12:14 PM Got an email from somebody having troubles reading that first google book online. Had to open the PDF or TXT (top right drop down menu.) Here's their new (improved??) link that fits in a clicky: A Duett, for two Performers on One Piano Forte But I get no text on this one. Just a greyed-out google front page with all the buttons disabled. Weird! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 06 Oct 25 - 12:39 PM “GARRY OWEN NA GLORIA AN OLD SONG AND ITS ASSOCIATIONS We take the following with reference to the popular Irish air of Garry Owen from “Here and There through Ireland,” by Mary Banim: – There is a path, through yellow corn-fields and pleasant lanes, from St. Patrick's Well across to that world famed “Garry Owen na Gloria,” sung in every land where a Munster man penetrates – and that means every land under the sun….” “Instead of Spa, we'll drink brown ale, And pay the reckoning on the nail, No man for debt shall go to gaol From Garry Owen na Gloria.” [Freeman's Journal (Sydney, NSW) 19 Jul 1890] Note: Several sources give the author as the daughter of John Banim (re: London Register, Crofton-Croker lyrics &c) but, no mention on his wiki page and their dates seem a bit off. Possible, if not probable. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 06 Oct 25 - 02:41 PM And since Auld Bessie is back in the conversation, here's the alt title list, so far. As with Notley, there are issues with the sources most everywhere one looks: Auld Bessie Battle of Limerick Bivouac of the Dead Boson that Beats Daughter of Erin Finnegan's Dream Harlequin's Amulet Let Bacchus' Sons Magic of Mona O! Friendship will Smile Scotch Laddie Years First Days |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Garryowen From: Lighter Date: 06 Oct 25 - 03:27 PM That link works. I'm not sure, however, that the tune much resembles "Garryowen"! Rex, I've noted several newspaper refs. to "Garryowen" (or "Garione") in U.S. before the Civil War. I don't have the texts handy, but here are the dates and the states: NY 1818, 1826, 1836, 1843 DC 1823 SC 1823, 1828 VT 1827 TN 1838 NH 1841 MA 1844 ME 1850 Mention of the playing of such tunes by title was rare (no "feature sections" in the press). This many suggests that "Garryowen" was well known in the U.S. by 1861 in Irish-American communities on the East Coast. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Garryowen From: Lighter Date: 06 Oct 25 - 04:59 PM Here's an Ohio occurrence without Capt. Foster. The Cincinnati Enquirer (July 31, 1843) recounts a recent Fourth of July celebration, which included the playing of the "air" "Garryowen." Searching through my chaotic files further, I see that "Garryowen" was played as far west as Iowa in 1838 and as far south as Mississippi in 1839. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Garryowen From: Rex Date: 06 Oct 25 - 05:33 PM If I can manage to find a proper source for Garryowen in 1824 Cincinnati, I will post it here. Meanwhile you gents have provided much. I thank you. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 06 Oct 25 - 07:08 PM Lighter: Glad we each got at least one working link now! You looking at Primo (pg.5) or Secundo (pg.4) on yours? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Garryowen From: Lighter Date: 06 Oct 25 - 07:28 PM Thanks, Phil. I was looking at "SECONDO," which is printed first. As for the "alt. title list," Traditional Tune Archive lists them, but without further info for most. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Garryowen From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 06 Oct 25 - 08:31 PM Just noticed the same publisher (Bland & Wellers) lists it as Cory Owen in the 1797 cover page advert. The image on mine is not so great though. Typical. More than a few of the alt titles I've managed to track down are completely different, newer lyrics '...to the air/tune of...' &c. Another clue to just how widely traveled and well known said tune was at the time. |
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