Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?

Subject: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Jeep man
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 09:32 PM

When I was growing up I was taught about manners, courtesey, etiquette and so on.I have always thought these things were pretty well accepted.

It seems I was wrong.People just aren't as mannerly as they used to be. My biggest peeve is wearing caps or hats inapropriatly. I see young people, grownups, elderly wearing hats indoors, in eating establishments, to the table at home, in school,and even at funerals.

When was the last time you saw someone remove his cap in the presence of a Lady? It should be automatic.

Just having manners is not going to save our nation, change social mores, or make us sissies.

Jeep

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 09:39 PM

I agree! Hats / caps in restaurants drive me nuts! Maybe I AM just too old fashioned (my kid's words, not mine!)

LL

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: thosp
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 09:43 PM

i agree,ot bugs me too --- i will not have it in my home!

peace (Y) thosp

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 09:46 PM

yeah it bugs the hell out of me....seeing people sitting down...eating with aa hat on...i never wear mine at the table....

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 09:50 PM

I make my family put on shirts and remove hats. Even camping at the lake. They know if they sit down to eat without a shirt or with a hat, the food comes off the table.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: RangerSteve
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 09:50 PM

Thanks for bringing this up. It's nice to see good manners aren't dead.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Sarah2
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 09:55 PM

Carolyn Hester wrote a song about that...I'll see if I can find it.

Sarah

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 10:00 PM

Where or why did it become manners to take a hat off in the first place? I was brought up that way and I believe in manners but I just can't figure the logic.

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 10:02 PM

Especially those ugly reversed baseball caps. They look like gang ware!!! Which of course makes me think back on hom much "the grownups" despised my choice of garb whien I was seventeen -- uncut hair and beat up field jacket and all. Guess it goes around and then it comes around, huh???

A

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: sophocleese
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 11:08 PM

Of course many years before that it was impolite to NOT wear a cap. You were not a decent woman if your head was uncovered in public. It also meant that your hair didn't get so dirty.

After a very hot and sweaty first half of a soccer game two weeks ago I removed my t-shirt. I sat in full view of the rest of my team (all women), our male coach, two male referees and assorted spectators. I was fetchingly and sexily attired in a lime-green and black opaque sports bra, black soccer shorts, cleats and red soccer socks covering shin pads. It helped to make me feel cooler for a few minutes and would have been impossible a few years ago.

Good manners are useful for easing relations between people. Getting tense about what others are or are not wearing doesn't seem to ease relations although, on the other hand, having a common ground of accepted behaviours will help. That common ground is shifting and things are changing again. Smile and talk to people instead of worrying about their clothes.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 11:23 PM

A gentleman removes his hat indoors, when speaking to a lady, or when eating, unless indoors is in a synagogue. It is never inappropriate for a lady to wear a hat, but ladies do not wish to wear large hats to spectacles where they will block the view of those behind them. Ladies also cover their heads before entering mosques. This is mostly per Miss Manners, whom I obey in most things.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 12:03 AM

Intersting and good thread jeepman. Yeah, I goof around a lot, and sometimes act pretty outrageous, but boy, am I glad that my folks were mannered people, and passed it on.

Rick

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 03:39 AM

The leader of one of the bands I play in always wears a hat indoors or out - he has a variety and they are glued to his head. He thinks it makes him look cool - we think it makes him look like something else and is probably just a wheeze to cover his increasing bald patch!

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 04:13 AM

It amused me when some country awards ceremony was on UK news showed these guys in tuxedos wearing stetsons in the auditorium. Were they expecting plaster to fall from the roof?
RtS

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: JudeL
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 04:17 AM

As I began to read this thread I was disturbed to see the general level of intolerance and self rightousness about correct etiquette. Did you ever stop to think that sometimes there is a very good reason for a person not removing their hat. Some years ago a friend of mine was suffering cancer and because of the chemotherapy treatment her hair became straggly and whispy and much of it fell out. She was highly embarrassed about this at a time when her spirits were not that high anyway. She took to wearing hats and scarves (partly because she didn't want to be the subject of rude and intrusive attention). I guess what I'm trying to say is, please don't condemn someone's actions unless you know the full picture.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: mooman
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 06:02 AM

I agree Jude, and thanks for mentioning that point.

Manners and etiquette are important to me like everybody who has posted but these also should mean tolerance and sensitivity and perhaps not making assumptions as JudeL has mentioned.

Best regards

mooman

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: IanC
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 06:07 AM

I was always brought up to believe that good manners was something for oneself. Different people belong to different traditions and do things differently. Does somebody wearing a hat indoors cause you any inconvenience? or harm you? If not, can't you just accept that they clearly have different ideas than you do?

This is not just hats, either, is it?

:-(
Ian

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 06:47 AM

I've been to a couple of Sealed Knot events including church parade; specific instructions beforehand included a requirement for gentlemen to not remove their headwear in the church. So, in 17th century Britain at least the reverse etiquette held.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: RichM
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 09:31 AM

Manners is something you do for others; using socially acceptable customs to denote respect. Does this change over time? Of course it does. But people inconveniently come in many age groups--it does no harm for people of ALL ages to respect each other.
I'm 60ish--I wouldn't dream of going to a rave, and criticizing the activities or manners there.
I guess I'd say, be aware of the context of the event or place, and act accordingly.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: GUEST,SharonA
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:06 AM

Speaking of the context of the place...
In these days of nasty tick-borne diseases such as Lyme Disease, it's a good idea to wear a hat in a camping environment, whether one is eating or not, as well as a long-sleeve shirt whether one is hot or not. Don't forget the dorky-looking (but effective) long pants tucked into socks!

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:43 AM

For some cultures and religions not wearing a head covering counts as disrespectful.

Again, for Quakers for many years it was seen as important that men should not take their hat off in the presence of a "social superior", even the king.

These are conventions that come and go and change their meanings. As indicators of bad manners or discourtesy they don't really stand up.

One thing today is that, what with shopping malls and such, it's not at all clear what counts as outdoors and indoors anyway. In the same way the existence of automatically opening doors gets people out of the habit of opening doors for other people. In spite of which, in my experience, a surprisingly large number of people, including young people, do in fact hold doors, especially for people with parcels or with children.

(On the other hand I just ran this post through a spellchecker - it didn't accept "disrespectful" and "discourtesy" as valid words...)

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:16 AM

When down in West Virginia I found most men had a baseball cap on all the time. In door, outdoors and I suspect they even wore the darn thing to bed!
I saw one guy without a cap and another guy say to him 'Wheres your cap boy!'

Little Neo

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: jmdornan
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:28 AM

I think we fall into the category of Common Sense - which if it was trully common everyone would have it!

I think the worst I offense I saw of the HAts not coming off, was at a Memerioal day service. The crowd was suppose to say the PLedge of Alliegence and say a silent prayer for the past veterns. Most of the people didn't remove there hats, and more so didn't even say the PLegde. I was Horrified that such a Basic Custom in our country has fallen apart in such a manner. THis here was a respect situation, and was not adhearred to, so how can we expect basic manners? Parents are responsible for teaching there kids to be socially respectful, and we are not doing our jobs. I should not go to a restaurant with my kids, and have people amazed that they have good manners, it was a standard when I grew up, and I didn't anything without out using my manners. But I rant.... and am sorry for that :)

Just my opinion. Jill

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: pavane
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:34 AM

Lucky you can get into a restauraunt with your kids - not so long ago, this was also frowned upon, at least in these parts.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:39 AM

The pity is, as Jill says, is that when well behaved children are out in public (and hers are very well behaved - despite what she sometimes may think. *grin*) good manners are seen as the exception, not the rule.

I have also noticed the falling off in the percentage of people who salute the flag as it passes in parade, or recite the Pledge of Allegience - or stand for the National Anthem.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:46 AM

"It should be automatic"

Ya... maybe a thousand years ago... welcome to the 21st century where something as inconsequential as wearing a hat indoors or to the table is finally given the value it's worth...

I for one am glad that the Victorian age is dead dead dead!

*This from a guy who wears his grandfathers fedora EVERYWHERE!*

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: IanC
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:48 AM

Oh dear!

I would never salute any flag or recite any pledges (vows) or stand up just because some tune was playing. I come from a (Quaker) tradition where these things are thought of as worldly vanities.

I had hoped that I wouldn't need to point out that, at least in my understanding, the worst of bad manners is in pointing out the "bad manners" of others.

Now I've done it. Sorry.

:-(
Ian

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:56 AM

I often were a hat, as the few of you who have seen me will know, now please excuse me while I put my cloth cap on and take my whippet for a walk.john in hull(in Yorkshire)

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Whistleworks
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 12:04 PM

People get hung up on manners. However, I am a great believer in respect. As a veteran, I am appalled when the National Anthem is played and people do not remove their hats. Its not a religious thing...just simple respect. Do I go to these folks and say anything? Absolutely not. But that being said, you can come to dinner in my house wearing a hat, but if it doesn't get stowed at the table, then see how fast you're asked to either take it off or leave. Just my own $0.02.

Bob

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 12:41 PM

Ian - I was not talking about people with reason not to do something - I both understand and respect the views of the Quaker tradition; I am talking about the kind of people who just "can't be bothered".

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: jmdornan
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:00 PM

Ian, I have to say i am with MMario here onne this one. I come from a diverse background and my beliefs are not always the "majority" but that does not give me the right to excuse the basics. I live in this country and the flag and veterans represent me. You are certainly entiled to your beliefs, and I in No way wish to disrespect you !!!! SO for what it's worth, the majority of this country DOES believe inb the Flag, and doesn't Respect what we have, that they are privliages, and NOT rights to do as we please. Many died for us so we could be here now having this discussion, never forget that! I guess this is a topic close to heart since my husband is a veteran, and I see it from a very different side. and I rant again... Sorry, I just wanted to point out that I did not in anyway wish to put down or disrespect anyone!!! Been there enough time myself. Jill

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:24 PM

I am talking about the kind of people who just "can't be bothered".

So without interviewing them individually, how can you tell which are which? Life is surely too short to worry about other people's reasons for doing things differently from the way you do them.

What matters is people being disrespectful of others because of the way they look, or their age or their colour or whether they are disabled in some way. That still happens all too often, but I think it's probably less common than it has been in the past, at times when maybe people were a bit keener on wearing hats and taking hats off at the customary times, and standing for national anthems and such.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:30 PM

I was brought up that men take their hats off indoors. But it don't gripe me none unless I can't see around it.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:00 PM

I was in a teaching situation one time where boys wearing baseball caps indoors were one of the pet peeves of another teacher. Needless to say, all the boys would test every teacher, knowing full well that the rule was that it had to be off indoors. I listened to the kids talking one day and realized that they were very sensitive about "hat hair," especially if girls were around. (Hat hair is the ridge that shows in your hair when you've been wearing a baseball cap.)

I love it in the South when I meet a man on the sidewalk and he smiles, nods, and touches or tips his hat. This is a nice custom that we don't see too much in larger cities or out of the South.

Once my husband bought a big cowboy hat in Denver, then had to fly home by himself. By the time he got to Louisville, he was the only person with a cowboy hat on. One little kid said to his mom, "Look! A cowboy!"

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:17 PM

Jeep man ; I understand that it is no longer PC to call a female person a lady; can't understand why! as an elderly lady myself I still use it, anyway.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:17 PM

Wouldn't it be great if you could tell whether people were goodies or baddies by the colour of their hats, like in the old time "oater" movies?

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 04:19 PM

Quentin Crisp describes "Manners" as "how to get what you want, without being an absolute swine in the process".

In Canada there was a huge kerfuffle a while ago because Sikhs wouldn't/couldn't remove their turbans when entering a Royal Canadian Legion (similar to VFW)building.

Seemed pretty tacky for the "old soldiers" to object (not all of them did) but I could never understand why a Sikh would want to go into one of those places in the first place. Pretty whitebread with lotsa beer.

Rick

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 04:58 PM

I like being called a lady (whether it is true or not) and I like being called Ma'am. And I'm only 33. So there!

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 05:37 PM

Actually, it used to be a non-issue about removing your hat indoors. Up until about 150 years ago, NO ONE did. one removed one's hat for a lady, or important person, then returned it to one's head. It wasn't rude to take it off indoors, just not done. Things may be changing again.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 07:04 PM

Then, if you're a bloke you take your hat off in church, but put one in a synagogue. In a mosque you take your shoes off, but I 'm not sure about the headgear rule. But then if you're a bishop you put your hat on in a church...

And do vehicles count as indoors or not?

These things get pretty complicated.

The more interesting thing I think is, why did that weird fashion for men not to wear caps or hats that sprang up half way through the last century. Look at a photo of a crowd, and you can normally instantly tell its rough date on the basis of the headgear. Even on a freezing cold day the poor buggerstand around with their ears turning blue, and losing they say one third of their body heat in the process.

And then for no reason, it swings around, except that this time it's those bizarre baseball caps instead.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: ddw
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 08:30 PM

Sometimes I wear a hat, sometimes I don't — but if I do I take it off if it's uncomfortable, which it usually is indoors. Outside it stays on if I'm going to spend any time in the sun 'cause without it I'm gonna be one sick puppy.

Jeepers — I used to notice things like that in restaurants — especially the baseball-cap brigade — but after a while the vulgarity of their other table manners made me only rarely look up from my table anyway.

david

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 08:43 PM

Table manners, that is another one... I hope I've got this right but I remember Jeri once telling me of a time when she was stationed in the UK and going out for a meal with some of her colleagues and they got strange looks from the other people. I think they were eating pizza with their hands rather than with knife and fork - presuamably socialy acceptable in the US but not in the UK at the time...

As for me and table manners, if for example I really enjoyed the gravy, I will lick the plate at home - why should I have to waste it if I am eating out?

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:26 PM

I lick the plate at home. I use my finger in restaurants. It's tacky to have one's face in a plate in public.

Manners are funny things. They're customs that society believes demonstrate respect. When most of society stops believing in a custom, it disappears, and folks who were taught the older ways either drop the custom or get upset because they think the respect is gone as well. This has probably been going on for ages. I remember being taught how to curtsey when I was little. Does anyone ever curtsey anymore except at royalty? How many parents who have little girls have taught them how to curtsey? This also goes for bowing for boys - that thing where you put one arm in front at your belt and the other arm behind you.

As far as I'm concerned, how folks treat other folks is what counts.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:36 PM

Well, I always feel that if I don't take off my hat indoors, especially in a restaurant, my mother will come in one door and my old drill sergeant will come in the other. So I take it off...much more peaceful eating that way.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:16 PM

Tacky now Jeri but... I'm going to start a trend whereby licking the plate clean is a compliment to the chef and not to do so is to indicate that the meal was not quite up to scratch so it will become good manners to lick the plate in restaraunts...

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:37 PM

I'll always remember my father removing his cap in a public restaurant, rising whenever a 'female' entered the room and standing behind his chair until the 'females' were sitted at the dining table. He was a man of impecable manners. To this day...I find that a man with manners is far more desirable than a man without. When I see a person displaying good manners, it shows me that the individual is 'present in the moment'. IMO.

LL

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:38 PM

Taking off one's hat is a Christian thing--noted by Paul in one of the epistles. I come from a Jewish culture, which views going bareheaded as a sign of disrespect. So I usually cover my head at all times indoors or out. I refuse to assimilate. Call it freedom of religion.

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Bert
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:40 PM

Artbrooks, A boss of mine used to tell this story about his Drill Sergeant. The Sergeant was escorting his troop into church for a service when one of the privates forgot to remove his hat inside the church.
The Drill Sergeant whips the guys hat off and yells in a thick Cockney accent in his full parade ground voice
"Git yer 'at orf, yer in the 'ouse of Gawd - CUNT!"

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 04:05 AM

My paternal grandfather who was bald, had an "indoor" cap (lightweight white) as opposed to the heavier one or the trilby he wore outdoors. But then there was no central heating in those days, just a range in the living room and a copper in the kitchen.
RtS (also a flat 'at wearer, outdoors, especially in the sun now my tonsure is growing!)

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: GUEST,Jude
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 05:58 AM

While wearing a hat or not is considered bad manners and disrepectful is, to a certain extent,a matter of culture and circumstance. Unless the hat is a problem in terms of e.g. obstructing a view, I tend to take a live and let live attitude, as I have a choice of whether or not to be affected by it. I do however get upset with those who insist on smoking in restaraunts. Those who do so I regard as totally self centred and lacking in any consideration or manners. Just because they themselves may not be eating at that precise moment - no one else matters to them. They have a choice - they can get up from the table and move to where people are not eating - but this apparently does not occur to some people. I am not saying that those who chose or are addicted to smoking should be forced to give up, merely that they should have some consideration for the effects of their choice on others.
Jude ( who has mild asthma )

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Lyndi-loo
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 06:35 AM

Hear! Hear! Sometimes it helps if you lean over and say "I hope you don't mind my eating when you're smoking"*BG* Oh Dear, there do seem to be a lot of anti-smoking postings just now, don't there.

L (cough cough) L

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 07:41 AM

"Spitting and smoking in this restaurant are prohibited"

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Mike Byers
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 08:07 AM

Here in Indiana many men seem to be born with "gimme hats" firmly attached to their heads; they never take 'em off and as far as I know are buried with 'em. If they're going to a fancy restaurant (one where most men wear a coat and tie) they'll usually wear a clean one, though. My group played for a wedding a few weeks ago and, sure enough, the "gimme hat" crew was in evidence, and evidently the clean hat rule doesn't apply to weddings. So I suppose what in my youth was considered bad manners is now considered entirely acceptable. Things change, I know, but I'd feel better if they'd at least wear a dark-colored "gimme hat" at funerals.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: LR Mole
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 10:07 AM

I sometimes wear a church when inside a car, myself, but only when smoking a Quaker. Actually, when with, or meeting, someone whose opinion, or ability, or kindness I value or admire, I look for ways to demonstrate respect. On the other hand, confronted by the hat police or the smoking regulators, I go out of my way to bother them. This is because I am childish, but so what?

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 11:06 AM

Was it George Washington who said, "Manners is nothing more than an effort to make others comfortable" ??

It bugs me to see males in restaurants with caps on. What bugs me even more is, why do I give a damn?

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 12:36 PM

I am not follicaly challenged, I am not differently hirsute, I'm flipping BALD! (Take a look...)

My head gets COLD when I don't wear a hat in a overly air-conditioned restaurant. What's it to ya? There is no logical reason for it. (Manners often fly in the face of logic)

If you don't believe in wearing hats inside, don't! Leave me the FLICK alone and mind your own beeswax!

Wincing Devil   >;-( I'm too sexy for my hair; that's why it isn't there

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 01:23 PM

What's a "gimme hat"? - it sounds like the sort you'd hold out when you were begging in the hope people would put money in it.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Grab
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 01:25 PM

It's amazing. Women can wear trousers, miniskirts or bikinis. Men can go for plastic surgery to improve their looks. Both sexes can go for body pearcing and tattoos. And no-one thinks that any of this affects the person's character. But wear a hat indoors, and suddenly you're a rude and disrespectful oaf.

Get a grip, folks. Why should this matter?

You only think that it's bad manners bcos you've been told it's bad manners. No-one, in this entire thread, has raised the possibility that they simply don't know. I certainly never knew about it until I read some Victorian-era novels, and my reaction was "how petty". In the UK in particular, you'll hardly ever see someone wearing a hat - the odd cloth cap amongst older men, maybe, but apart from that, hats are a mere affectation to fit a fashion (this includes baseball caps), so "manners" such as tipping one's hat to a lady are similarly affected, not a natural response.

Kendall's last post says it all - codified manners is merely a way of creating a group of ppl whom you can dislike. In NO way do codified manners equate to politeness, moral behaviour, or being pleasant to others. I'd say Jeepman's first line is exactly wrong - I have always thought that these were pretty well accepted as being dead as a dodo. Do you also look down on women who don't stick their little finger out when drinking their cup of tea? Or ppl whose glass touches their nose when they're drinking? Or who scoop their soupspoon towards them instead of away from them? I sincerely hope that everyone can answer "no" to these...

Or is it just the case that the Old World (England) is moving with the times, and the New World (the US) is stuck in the past? ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: late 'n short 2
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 01:30 PM

Mike, help me out here. What's a "gimme hat"? Maybe we have the same thing in NJ but call it something else.

Dan

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Bardford
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 01:43 PM

Um, Wincing Devil - I hate to break this to you, but that isn't a hat. I think it might be a ferret. And it fell off.Allow me to be the first to state that I have no opinion on the wearing of vermin in public places.

One thing I might add though, is that hats, in days of yore, could generally be relied on to differentiate age groups.Look at old photos of hockey or baseball games, or street scenes. Men in fedoras, boys in caps. Now, in North America, anyway, a lot of adult men dress pretty much as their adolescent sons do.Am I alone in noticing this?
Good day to you all(tipping my hat)
Bardford

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 01:48 PM

I think that wearing hats or caps indoors is rude and the people who do this have very little manners and so do the people who approve of such a thing.

And this wearing the hats backwards, when I was a boy the only people who did this were either drunk, or completly off their heads.

However if there are people out there who think that wearing hats inside I feel sorry for you

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 01:56 PM

I think that wearing hats or caps inside any building is rude and Ill mannered, unless it's it has something to with relgion then it's all right.

Young people now a days have very little manners today and so some adults as well.

I was brought to be well mannered and it doesn't hurt to be polite towrds people.

I was in Australia and this friend of the family out there couldn't get over how polite I was.

So if there is anyone out there who doesn't like what I've written then I'm sorry if I've upset you Thank you very much. Tom

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 02:09 PM

If you haven't got a cap you can't take it off, as a way of saying something, and you can't keep it on as a way of saying something else; and you can't throw it in the air or wave it, no matter how excited or exhuberant you are feeling - you are in fact depriving yorself of a significant communication tool. .

It's a bit as if you had dogs insisting on having their tails docked.

And you get a lot colder on a chilly day, all over, because that's where you lose the heat.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 02:55 PM

Busbitter:

I just want to know, other than someone having told you that it's rude, why you think it's rude?

What is INTRINSICALLY impolite about wearing a hat indoors?

Wincing Devil   >;-( A Hat is a LOT cheaper than a toupee

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 04:05 PM

Good question Devil, God, I hope it isn't a control thing.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 04:07 PM

Good question Devil, God, I hope it isn't a control thing.If I see something I like in a restaurant, a nice looking woman, a well mannered child etc, I look. If I see something I dont like, I dont look.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 04:30 PM

I did not read any posts to this thread yet but I intend to read the whole thing tomorrow after work. In the meantime, I just want to say that I ALWAYS take my hat off upon entering my mother's house or upon entering any house if she is present. I really don't consider it bad manners to keep my hat on - women don't remove theirs. However, my mother does, and she's the only one that I know that can smack a 260# Irishman and get a thank you in return.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Rollo
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 04:59 PM

Rules how to behave were neccessary once, when society was divided into classes. To know how to behave in a certain situation, in the presence of certain persons, gave you comfort.

Nowadays most of uns live in societies that declare (theoretically) all human beings to be equal. Everyone knows (or oght to know) there are no longer persons superior or inferior to yourself. There is no reason to be nervous about showing the right amount of respect. Therefore it is no longer neccessary to follow special rules about courtesy. But still it is important to show respect at all! I wear my sailors cap nearly allways outside. I do not take it off when greeting or talking to a lady, because only a few people still wear a hat or cap, and so it is not common practice to remove it. But for sure I give my respect by at least nodding and uttering a greeting, if not reaching out for a handshake. I feel it`s inapropriate to wear a cap inside a room, so I remove it.

But showing respect also means to accept someone other having different manners. If he does not respect me, I will recognice it whether he wears his hat or not.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From:
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 05:23 PM

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From:
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 05:27 PM

Sorry...fat finger syndrome hit the wrong key. I believe that a "gimme hat" is one that has an advertising logo on it...but I KNOW I've seen "John Deere" hats in stores!

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 05:50 PM

Do you have "hat tricks" in America? (In case you don't, it's when someone scores three times - three goals, three wickets, whatever), and they used to pass the hat round to collect money as a reward.)

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 08:30 PM

Mcgrath when a player in hockey scores a hat trick it is cutomary to throw your hat onto the ice. McGrath I think he means by a Gimmehat is a baseball cap that looks as if it has been passed down the generations,never washed and the bill bent in a curve. Busbitter if I meet you in a restaurant and treat you with nothing but respect would you still treat me differently because I am wearing a hat. Jon freeman about licking the gravy off your plate reminds me of the time when I was a kid and we were all at a restuarant and my Mom was trying to act all prim and proper and get us to do the same and my Dad when we were finished with the meal had me and my three sisters lick are plates clean and he did the same

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Mike Byers
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 09:31 PM

The term "gimme hat" comes from folks walking into the feed store, John Deere(a popular midwestern US make of farm machinery)dealer, etc. where they have free hats with appropriate advertising and saying "Gimme one a'them hats." William Gibson, the SF writer, coined the term "meshback" (from the design of the hat)to describe the culture of the wearers of these in one of his near-future novels, e.g. "Smoking...yeah, it's sort of a meshback thing." Some students of the "gimme hat" culture believe the practice of wearing them backwards came about when the wearers wished to display the high-technology "one size fits all" feature.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 04:11 AM

The reason why i think it's rude is because I was brought up to beleive that taking your hat or cap off indoors was being polite. And Keeping it on unless for religious grounds then it's rude.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 06:24 AM

In other words, you have no reason other than someone TOLD you so. While that is not a logical reason, in my opinion, I will always take my hat off if I were to go to your house, out of respect for you, but in public, I just don't get it.

Wincing Devil   >;-( "The cat was created when the lion sneezed." - Arab myth

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 07:03 AM

How about taking your shoes off in someone's house? (There are quite a few people who go in for that, even aside from when muddy boots are involved.)

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 07:26 AM

I just think it's courteous towrds other people.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 12:41 PM

I always wondered why it's impolite to put one's elbows on the table, or to sing at table. Seems like singing at table could be uplifting and festive.

I don't bother about the hats, like I said, unless it's obstructing a view. One time, though, I sat behind a lady at a bluegrass show whose HAIR was obstructing my view. I couldn't rightly ask her to take it off. But could big hair be considered rude?

I believe in the epistles of Paul, he said that men should go uncovered in church, and women should have something on their heads. This is probably where the whole thing started.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: MMario
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 12:47 PM

the shoe thing in private homes - y'know it's all what people are used to; in some homes it would be extremely rude to REMOVE your shoes, while in others it would be the height of rudeness NOT to remove your shoes.

rule of thumb - watch your hosts...and even if they currently have shoes on - presence or lack of a big pile of different shoes next to the doorway is a good clue as to normal custom.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: GUEST,Souter
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 07:10 PM

I was always told that one doesn't put one's elbows on the table because then everyone else is crowded out of their seats. I was also told that it is the epitome of bad manners to correct other people's manners in public and if the behavior didn't affect me pesonally I shouldn't get all offended looking. If soneone comes in wearing a hat, and it bothers me, I ignore it. I'm not being harmed by the hat. If the hat is a ten foot monstrosity at a concert and I can't see the stage, I move. I try to be tolerent of ignorant people. Life's easier like that.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Dave Swan
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 07:41 PM

I'm trying to discipline myself to wear a hat more often in an attempt to hide from the sun's damaging effects. I'm pretty comfrotable with hat off indoors, or when in the presence of a lady, that sort of thing, but I had to do research about hat etiquette in that most sacred of places...one's watering hole. I asked my dad, who grew up wearing fedoras, and looked pretty snappy as a plainclothesman in the 1940's, how hats were handled at the bar. He told me that when standing at the bar, hats were seldom, if ever, removed. When seated near the bar, hats were removed somewhat more frequently. Of course, ladies were not seen in these establishments. Kind of an interesting peek at the 1930's through the 50's, I thought.

Steinbeck described Doc Ricketts as a man who would tip his hat to passing dogs. I've always liked that image.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: hesperis
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 08:28 PM

Well, I'm a lady, even when I am being a bitch. (Both the angry and sexual connotations of the word.) And I am a mere 22 years old.

I wear a hat, usually straw, except when I'm at home. I get a lot of stares, because most women don't wear hats around here. I don't take it off indoors unless I'm sitting down, because otherwise I'll put it somewhere and forget to take it with me when I leave!

I have met very few guys who look good in a baseball cap. I have met MANY guys who think tey do look good in a baseball cap. They should get a female opinion on that one!

As for shoes, I usually take mine off in my own home, and don't elsewhere, unless asked to do so. And if I haven't vacuumed lately, I'll warn you not to take your shoes off when you visit!

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Ringer
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 05:06 AM

Just read (the early part of) this thread for the first time. Re chemotherapy and it's unfortunate side-effects, may I relate a story? I have a bell-ringing friend, Sue, who, with a toddler & a babe in arms, was diagnosed, about a year ago, with breast cancer. I happened to meet her early one morning, while it was still dark, just before Christmas as I was walking the dog and she was walking to work. She hailed me with "Hey, look, I've got even less hair than you, now", and took off her cap (it was frosty) to reveal a shining dome. And under the street-lamp, her pate glittered. She'd stuck silver stars on it for the Christmas party at work that afternoon! She is one brave lady. (I saw her at a ringing practice last Tuesday: hair grown again, and she seems as good as new; but, of course, she's not out of the wood yet.)

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: IanC
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 07:40 AM

Elbows on tables

If you look at the one or two histories of etiquette, this had a very practical implication. Originally, tables were trestles. If you rested your elbow on the table, you were in danger of possibly overturning the trestle with all the resultant hassle and general mess.

Many of the other things which are now regarded as "manners" were originally practical in this way.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:14 AM

OhMyGawd!!!
I had no idea so many things were bad manners.
And as for that one about the nose not touching the drinking glass......now how am I ever going to achieve that with a hooter my size??
If I get a hat with a really big brim perhaps I could hide my nose when drinking.
As to standing for the National Anthem - that would depend on how you were feeling about the nation at the time. I don't approve of automatic responses.
I prefer honesty to manners every time - then at least you know where you are. My mum is unfailingly polite and well- mannered, but its hellish difficult to find out what she really wants to do when she will insist on aquiescing to everything.
I think its nice to conform to a set of manners if you know it will please a particular someone (eg your mum..), but I can't be bothered with trying to work out all the ins & outs of etiquette. I don't have that much time.

Kris

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: forty two
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 12:04 PM

Now certainly it is part of his image but Paddy Keenan says he wears his hat because it "captures the sound" and he hears the music better. I'll put up with a hat indoors if that is the result.

But what really annoys me is the guy driving in front doing 20 mph. He always wears a hat!!! Now there is such a thing as road etiquette!!

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: forty two
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 12:04 PM

Now certainly it is part of his image but Paddy Keenan says he wears his hat because it "captures the sound" and he hears the music better. I'll put up with a hat indoors if that is the result.

But what really annoys me is the guy driving in front doing 20 mph. He always wears a hat!!! Now there is such a thing as road etiquette!!

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Charmion
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 01:27 PM

Many manners conventions arise from the need to demonstrate "no offence" -- for example, taking off your hat to greet someone, taking off gloves when shaking hands and, more recently, taking off sunglasses when meeting someone for the first time. Without the hat, gloves and sunglasses, your face is clearly visible and your hands are obviously empty. Thus, your interlocutor can see that, should you strike him or her, you are unlikely to do extensive damage, and she or he can pick you out of the police mug-book later.

My pet peeve is the ever-so-self-consciousness of the ball cap worn backwards or sideways, especially by someone who is consequently squinting into the sun. It looks fake to me and, as such, a sure sign of somebody I would rather not know.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Grab
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 04:59 PM

Kris, there's any amount of dumb "etiquette" stuff out there. Seriously, I remember seeing a program with some stuff shirt saying the polite way to eat grapes - you don't strip them off the bunch, you cut a small branch off the bunch with (and I kid you not!) a pair of grape scissors, these being scissors designed for cutting grape stems!

Next time anyone complains about lack of old-fashioned manners around me, I'll start eating with my hands and throw the bones over my shoulder. You want "old-fashioned manners", that's what you'll get... ;-)

There are practical aspects to some things - for instance, eating with your elbows held at your side makes sense, cos when you eat at a canteen (at work or school) you'll be unpopular if your elbows are whacking the noses of your neighbours! Or restraining farts in enclosed environments such as lifts. But if there's no relevance to it, then why should anyone bother?

Graham.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:32 PM


John In Remote Kansas (JIRK) on LIK's cookie

In the traditions of old-time farmers, a GIMME anything is something that is FREE, usually with some sort of advertising on it. Some years back, the traveling reps for farm machinery were one of the most common sources, and would leave things like hats, aprons, yardsticks, coffee mugs, and such with the local Feed and Seed or grocery store.
Hats were always one of the most popular items, because anyone who spends a lot of time outdoors under the sun MUST wear one.
The real cowboys spend a lot of time up on a horse, and can afford to get a nice hat. The guy that's chasing the back end of a mule (or riding a Massey Fergusen) while he tries to hold a plow blade in the dirt is going to go through several hats in a season, so he might just as well wear the GIMME.

As to taking the hat off in public - when you have been in the sun all day, every day, with a hat on, taking the hat off reveals a forehead - sometimes extensive - that has all the virgin pristine glow of a baby's bottom. It is a little like revealing any other part of your body that is normally clothed. I have known a number of good men who would avoid entering a place where they might feel obligated to remove their hat because IT IS AS EMBARRASSING to them as displaying a nose or navel ring - or any other PRIVATE part of their anatomy.

The backward ball cap is a convenience in some cases, since modern farming requires the occasional use of safety glasses, ear protectors, respirators (dust filters) and such, and getting them on and off is much easier without the projecting bill in front.
The more modern generation may do it this way just to be "cool," but then they're dumb enough to PAY EXTRA for stuff with someone's advertising on it.

As for those few of us who aren't in the fields all day and still choose to wear a hat (not a cap), in most public places like restaurants and bars there AINT NO PLACE TO PUT IT if you take it off, so for the most part I'll leave mine on, thank you.

John

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: JudeL
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 01:07 PM

Bald Eagle, I love your story about your friend and the stars & I too salute her courage and I am glad that she is getting better and hope that her progress continues. Yesterday I heard that while I was away last week another friend had lost his fight against cancer. Although we all knew he was ill, none of us expected the end to come this soon. I will miss his company and his ability to cut right through all the waffling bullshit going on around us to say what he belived was right, but most of all I think I will miss his dry sense of humour and that glint in his eye that invited you to be amused at the pomposity of some speaker. And DAMMIT it still doesn't seem possible that he's gone !*^$%£^%&%^*
And now having got all melancholy and maudlin I think it's time I stopped, went down the pub for a pint and find a friend to hug.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 08:28 PM

Then eat at home!

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Gurney
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 05:38 AM

What a lot of posts!
'Manners' seem to me to be a kind of arbitrary social oil for a very local group. Trouble is, lots of us live in a global society. So, if a woman covers her hair in church, or her whole body in the street, if a man uncovers his head in church, won't eat if there is a woman at the table, burps loudly after a meal, it's all good manners SOMEWHERE.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Ringer
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 07:41 AM

Sue is still fine, JudeL. I saw her ringing only last Saturday. Though only a small lady, she can handle heavy bells better than almost anyone I know (and was doing so).

(PS: I changed my Mudcat nom de plume from Bald Eagle.)

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: InOBU
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 07:41 AM

As McGrath says way back in the thread, we Quakers had a tradition about keeping hats on. As a plain Friend I often (daily) go about with a broad brimed Quake lid. However, I do take it off in Restaurants and even before meeting, when in the old days you'd see us all with hats on in meeting. As someone would rise to speak in meeting, all the hats would come off, until the speaker would sit, and they would all go back on, but I have never seen that. that was years ago, though I had a sort of quaint niceness, wouldn't mind seeing it again, perhaps. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 09:45 AM

May I suggest that most of the current hat wearers grew up un an era when there WERE no rules for the wearing of hats? Their parents had abandoned them, they were not passed on. Recent generations will restore or invent rules as they see the need. Isn't this more or less how it started in the first place?

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 11:47 AM

There are certain ways in which one can indicate that one is civilized. Or not.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 11:53 AM

My ex-father in law used to call a cap worn backward unnecessarily an "F A hat," as he believed that anyone who would wear one that way was clearly a F***ing A*****e. Now, it's a fashion statement. But style, at least around here, seems to be driven by the bottom of society.

Back in the 60's when we were out in the field as surveyors, transit men would reverse the cap to keep the brim out of the way. In the older films, I don't recall ever seeing a cameraman working with his cap brim forward, for the same reason. The rest of the time, the caps were worn forward.

The question of removing a cap for the flag or other group situation is clearly a statement of whether the wearer considers that he [since this is a male issue] is part of or respects the group.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: CapriUni
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 12:31 PM

From Larry:

As McGrath says way back in the thread, we Quakers had a tradition about keeping hats on. As a plain Friend I often (daily) go about with a broad brimed Quake lid. However, I do take it off in Restaurants and even before meeting, when in the old days you'd see us all with hats on in meeting.

As it was explained to me (If you've heard a different history, Larry, I'd like to hear it), the practice of taking a hat off indoors started in the Middle Ages, or thereabouts, when it was required for lower born people to take their hats off in the presence of a fuedal lord (and use the formal "you" and "ye" instead of the familiar "thou" and "thee").

But the teaching of the Friends is that we all have the Spirit of Christ within, and therefore are all equal, and so for that reason, they kept their hats on (and also, for that reason, used "thee" and "thou" in their speach instead of "you" and "ye"). Removing the hat when someone is speaking in Meeting is a sign of respect of the Spirit of Christ, who is speaking though them.

The wearing of hats and the use of thee and thou have been dropped by many Friends these days, simply because the social context, and therefore, the meaning of these symbols, has changed.

But I know several Friends who still will not use "Mr." or "Mrs. Miss, Ms." in formal address, because these are all contractions of Master and Mistress... and only God is our Master. Instead, in formal adress, they will use the person's full name (Instead of saying: "Hello, Mr. Smith" they will say: "Hello, John Smith").

...It really blew my grandmother away, when, in the early 1900's my grandfather introduced her to the family as "Josephine Andrews" -- she was her own person, and not just her father's daughter! (Imagine That!)

Mostly, though, since as Gurney pointed out:

So, if a woman covers her hair in church, or her whole body in the street, if a man uncovers his head in church, won't eat if there is a woman at the table, burps loudly after a meal, it's all good manners SOMEWHERE.

And since we cannot know, by looking, why people show the manners that they do (and I'm using that term in the broadest sense possible, as in habits), I think it is most polite of us to assume that they are not being impolite... ;-)

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Jeanie
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 12:37 PM

According to the costume department at the Theatre Museum, Covent Garden, the origin of a gentleman doffing his hat when greeting a lady was that he had a secret stash of scented herbs hidden in the crown of the hat - by waving the hat around as the lady got into sniffing distance, the hope was that she wouldn't be able to tell that he hadn't had a wash since 1542. Good idea !

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 12:53 PM

I remember at school we had a missionary who told us about some parish in a country where people didn't wear clothes as a rule.

Some members of the congregation started dressing up to go to church, and everyone was looking at them instead of joining in the Mass. So the priest announced that in future would people make a point of not wearing clothes when they came to Mass, because it was distracting people from paying attention to the service and to their prayers.

I always liked that story. It shows a right sense of what matters and what doesn't, and a respect for cultural diversity.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 01:35 PM

Okay to wear a hat or cap      NOT okay to wear a hat or cap

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 04:42 AM

Hi bert,

Your story I heard about a terrific character Frank Trickey, at the time a Leading Seaman, Gunnery Instructor at HMS Ganges. He went on to make Captain RN, and always said it was that story that got him noticed.

Another true navy hat story,

Onboard any Royal Navy Ship the only time you ever wear your hat inside is when you are actually on duty or in a compartment in an official capacity.

The Amphibious Assault Ship, HMS Intrepid, had just entered harbour with troops of the Household Brigade embarked. The Navigating Officer left the bridge and went into the wardroom for a late breakfast.

While finishing off his breakfast, a Guards Officer entered the wardroom wearing his cap. He then proceeded to sit down with his cornflakes still wearing his cap. The Navigating Officer was just finishing his breakfast with a piece of toast, needing the marmalade he asked the Guards Officer to pass it to him. He got no response whatsoever, so thinking the guy might be hard of hearing, he repeated his request.

The Guards Officer very deliberately placed his spoon on his plate and turned and said to the NO, "I don't know who you are, or what your function is onboard this vessel. But I thought it was common knowledge that when an Officer in the Household Brigade wears his hat at a meal, he does not wish to be addressed in conversation."

The Navigating Officer then turns in his chair and plants his steaming boot clad foot right in the Guards Officers cornflakes. The Guards Officer throws down his spoon and yells, "What the hell do you think your playing at!!". To which the Navigating Officer replies, "I don't know who you are, or what your function is within your regiment, but I thought it was common knowledge, that if a Naval Officer puts his foot in your cornflakes it means he wants the fucking marmalade passed".

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 08:49 AM

The only time that I ever wear a hat is to keep the sun or rain off my head. If I doffed it to every lady, I'd get either sunburnt or wet ! - Sod that for a lark.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: InOBU
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 09:47 AM

Dear CapriUni:
Right on all counts. When I was a ween, there were still a few Quakes who used Thee and Thou - mostly thee, as a less than gramatical Quaker speak had grown up in three hundred years, droping the pural, ye, for example - though retaining some quaint uses such as thankee. So, thou willst became thee will, and such. But, if you know my two songs from Anna Curtis storries, Anna, used to always use thee around us as little folks, and so some of us use it for making a point to each tother. I, for example, when the Friends School, puts up unfriendly signs, such as "These are OUR mugs, WASH them if you use them!"... out comes my pen and I edited it to, "wash them is thee uses them" adding a thank'ee or thank ye. But, there we are. I lapsed into plain speach a few weeks ago, when a gaggle of young Teens were bussed into my neighborhood by the Billy Graham ministeries to pass out literature about remembering 9/11. Without thinking, I found my self saying, "Thee may consider that thy friend Billy was a great supporter of the Viet Nam war, and it is the culture of war that leads to this present moment. I think thee may ask thyself if in fact, Jesus supports war at all?"
Cheers Larry ,
So as not keep this on the point of the thread, I was wearing my collarless jacket and waistcoat, collarless shirt and ... my broad black hat which I did not doff to the young ladies.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 10:20 AM

Just wearing that Larry?

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: CapriUni
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 10:55 AM

From Larry:

When I was a ween, there were still a few Quakes who used Thee and Thou - mostly thee, as a less than gramatical Quaker speak had grown up in three hundred years

I must admit, since it has been a very long time since I studied Latin, it takes me a good deal longer to decide whether a noun is in the nomitive or objective case... At least the grammatical historical record shows that I am not alone. ;-)

And, McGrath, please behave!

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: InOBU
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 11:10 AM

Oh my! Trousers, hose and shoon, and the unmentionables as well.... Larry