Hungerstrike commemerations...

Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations...
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 03:06 PM

Sorry for the double post... Mudcat was down earlier, and I didn't realise the erlier one went through. As a matter of fact, American courts, during extradition hearings found evidence that the SAS did not, as a matter of tactics, take prisoners, that they were, in fact guilty of a shoot to kill policy. It was evidence of this which led US courts to find a prima facia case for political assylum in the Doherty case. I am at a loss to think of an instance of an unarmed Bobbie being gunned down by an IRA member. I would appreciate a name and date. Not to say it isn't so, but, such an event would have likely been raised in the IRA extradition cases here, where US courts found the IRA not to be a terrorist organisation, and as such, until the rewriting of the US?GB extradition treaty, removing the political offence bar to extradition, no IRA members were extradited under the old treaty. England and the US state department used all their mighty resources to prove the IRA was a terrorist organisation and failed. Having failed, they changed the rules.
As for SAS answerabilty, the civilian witness to the three murders that day, underwent persicution at the hands of the British government in an attempt to discredit her when she came forward with her account of the murder.
I agree, that this is not relevant to the hunger strike commemorations, other than to answer the issue of weither or not they were right in expecting fair treatment under varrious human rights conventions, but it is in deed a tangential issue.
Perhaps some one with better computer skills than I may put in a link to Brendy's excellent post on the recent history of the occupation of Ireland for our brother, Yonger.
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations...
From: Grab
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 03:06 PM

Oh dear, something's gone very wrong with my post. Correction below (I hope!):-

That site's remarkable, Wolfgang! Larry, the figures you requested, as extracted from the cross-reference facility on that guy's site. I think these tell the story well enough on the civilian dead:-

Casualty \ Killer British Irish Loyalist Not Republican Totals
\ security security paramilitary known paramilitary
British Security 12 0 14 7 1078 1111
Civilian 192 0 862 54 721 1829
Irish Security 0 0 0 0 10 10
Loyalist Paramilitary 14 0 75 1 44 134
Republican Paramilitary 145 5 39 17 178 384
TOTALS 363 5 990 79 2031 3468

Grab.

Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations...
From: Grab
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 03:11 PM

What's with this?! I can't seem to get that table to work! Here's another try...

  Casualty  \     Killer   British   Irish     Loyalist      Not    Republican    Totals             \             security  security  paramilitary  known  paramilitary    

British Security         12        0         14            7      1078          1111 
  Civilian                 192       0         862           54     721           1829 
  Irish Security           0         0         0             0      10            10 
  Loyalist Paramilitary    14        0         75            1      44            134 
  Republican Paramilitary  145       5         39            17     178           384 
  TOTALS                   363       5         990           79     2031          3468 
  

Grab.

Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations...
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 03:28 PM

Well done Grab. Which page of Wolfgang's source is this, I have been trying to find the breakdown as you post it, but the headings I find to be a bit confusing,
Thanks
Larry

Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations...
From: Grab
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 03:35 PM

Nearly there - looks like the "pre" tag in Mudcat needs "br" line-breaks defined as well. A preview option might be nice!

Anyway, the columns should read "British Security, Irish Security, Loyalist Paramilitary, Not known, Republican paramilitary, Totals".

Larry, the IRA planted bombs in shops, both in NI and in mainland Britain, to cause maximum injury to civilians - remember Manchester and London? Omagh, more recently in a crowded street of shoppers? Or the Enniskillin bomb which went off at a Rembrance Day ceremony (remembering Irish dead from the 2 world wars) composed mainly of civilians? That's why the number of civilians the IRA killed is so high - they really didn't care about killing civilians. Witnesses to IRA actions who spoke up were kneecapped, killed or tortured to death. Soldiers captured were tortured to death.

I'll back out now - there's nothing I can say that the numbers don't.

Grab.

Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations...
From: Grab
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 03:41 PM

Larry, there's a page called "crosstabs" which cross-references statistics - here. It seems a bit unreliable - some statistics didn't work for me - but that one did. I tried to reformat it to work here, but I was having problems getting the formatting to work properly on my post. The table is "Summary organisation" vs "Summary status".

Grab

Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations...
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 04:38 PM

Thanks Grab. In fact, as you may have noticed I have already spoken of the fact that I spoke out about the Manchester bombing, and several other events at the time they happened and have here on Mudcat. Unfortunatly in armed struggle, such as the American Revolution, (the true story not the one from the movie Patriot!) The struggle against Aparthide in Africa, even the actions of French and Jewish partisans during WW2, one has to weigh the overall policies and options of the times against the horrors of war. I have on mudcat and continue to say, that personaly I think it is no way to make change. However, sometimes war is brought to small nations by huge bullys like the United States and Britain. The aftermath of these wars takes generations to overcome. How long will India and Pakistan, Irac and Iran take to work out the aftermath of US and British involvement in their histories?
Well, I'm away, I have an old friend coming over to play a bit of music. Anyone read Alan Feldman's "The Northern Fiddler"? Well, he is quite a musician in his own right. He does have a pention for difficult tunes, so I have to practice a bit before he gets here.
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations...
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 04:43 PM

One more thing about bombs, I don't think they are a justifiable weapon in war, as they are responcible for the new term "colateral damage". I believe that one cannot point to the IRA and say that singles them out as terrorists, while the US and Britain continue to drop the same devices from 30,000 feet. I recall Mr. Majors refering to the IRA men who staged a mortor attack on 10 Downing street, from the center of London and escaping on a motor bike as "cowards", while his lads were dropping bombs on Irac from a hight fairly out of much danger. I am greatly distrustful when violent and dangerous nations make the definitions which describe concepts of fair play.
Larry

Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations...
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 07:29 PM

LArry, I think we're back in harmony. (Just in time - this thread's getting way too long.) Anyway, I'm with you 100 per cent on the criminal and cowardly US/UK assault on Kosovo/Belgrade. SAme goes for what's going on in southern Iraq daily and what Israel's been encouraged to get away with for years.

There's one point I ought to make to DtG though, on the thread's main theme: suicide is not a victimless act - it can be quite brutal on close relatives etc. Statistically people who have a parent who committed suicide are more predisposed to do it themselves, the rationale apparently being close to that in abuse cases - ie, because they have been shat on, they don't feel so bad about shitting on others.

Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 08:27 PM

Any death in war causes suffering to the family, and ripples that go on for generations, and probably these more than most. But the Hunger Strikers were not suicides, any more than any soldier who is killed in battle. They desperately wanted to live, like any soldier in battle. But they were not willing to surrender.

And you could disagree with the reason they thought it worth dying for, and with the whole shape of their lives that brought them to that situation - as you could with any soldier in any battle. But their deaths were not suicide. And I think if we really are seeing the unfolding of real peace in Ireland, their deaths played a major part in getting us there.

Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations...
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 12:35 AM

Hi Fionn: I know a number of the family members of the ten 1981 huner strikers, and I know people who lost family to suiside. The families, as Keven says, sees their family members as casualities of war, as did Pope John Paul II, who, unlike the English bishops, did not see the hunger strikers as suisides. In fact, he sent a cross to Patsy O'Hara, who gave it to his sister Liz, who kept it until it was stolen in the United States (Ohhhhh why do these things have to happen here so often!!!!) The deaths were and are a terrible pain to the families, however, unlike suisides, they are also a sourse of pride. Patsy's mother had decided that as soon as Patsy was unconcious, she would let the doctors feed him intravenously. However, his last words where, after aplologising that they did not win the prisoners rights they sought, Mum, let the fight go on... and after that, she could not let the doctors feed him. Emotionally the families don't see their deaths in anyway shamefully as happens with suisides.
Night all,
Larry