BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido

Subject: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 07:26 AM

I'd like to share this article with anyone who is interested in understanding / improving the quality of discourse on this forum. Humor: A Veil for Verbal Violence Here's a quote:

Speech-attacks, like any other form of aggressive behavior, imply both a victim and a perpetrator. Philosophically speaking, there is little difference between this form of hostile word-use and a physical attack. Aikido, in the larger sense, concerns itself with identification and neutralization of both these types of aggression.

While practicing Aikido on the mat, we learn to recognize and harmonize with an opponent's attack in such a way as to avoid any harm to ourselves, and wherever possible, to avoid injuring the attacker. Aikido is, in this way, a self-defense which implies neither victory nor defeat. the terms "victory" and "defeat" belong to the field of competition and are operative where conflict of interest exists.

Aikido does not deal with reality in a mutually exclusive, dualistic manner. To define Aikido as "the art of no-defeat" is not a mere semantic game. We, as speakers of the English language and, consequently, children of Aristotelian thought, are accustomed to viewing the phenomenal world in terms of polar opposites, ie., "good-evil," "plus-minus," "off-on," etc. The power of this procedural mode has been dramatically demonstrated by man's vast attainments in the fields of science and technology which are based on the scientific method.

Nonetheless, there are many areas in which this method of perceiving reality is inappropriate, inefficient, and tension-producing. there are aspects of interpersonal relationships, for example, where viewing things in a binary, "either-or" fashion can defeat communication and perpetuate conflict.

It is so disappointing and distracting to watch interesting and potentially fruitful discussions turn into slug-fests. It's easy to point the finger at anonymous GUESTS who post here only to flame or troll, but just as often these fights are initiated and dragged out by the veteran members themselves.

[Edited at Daylia's request. --JoeClone]

In the 20 months I've been posting on Mudcat it's become a lot easier to act instead of react, to ignore the usual offenders, let the insults slide off my back, to remain civil and friendly ... even to find reasons for compassion. Applying the principles of Verbal Aikido brings relief and facilitates the desired behavior modication. I did not post them here to "preach" at anyone, but in the hope that someone else might find them as helpful and interesting as I have.

If anyone here practices Aikido in any form, I'd love to hear about your first-hand experiences with it! And thanks for the opportunity to share my concerns and my hopes here.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 07:33 AM

daylia:

A good idea for a thread, but like mine on non-partisan political comments, I doubt if it will be treated in a serious manner.



"Nonetheless, there are many areas in which this method of perceiving reality is inappropriate, inefficient, and tension-producing. there are aspects of interpersonal relationships, for example, where viewing things in a binary, "either-or" fashion can defeat communication and perpetuate conflict. "

A true statement, but it implies a level of maturity/understanding that may be beyound the reach of many of us ( myself included) here.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 07:47 AM

This arrived on my computer under the heading:

!!!!!!!!!!!ANGER MANAGEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When you occasionally have a really bad day, and you just need to take it out on someone, don't take it out on someone you know, take it out on someone you don't know.

It all started one day when I was sitting at my desk and remembered a phone call I had forgotten to make. I found the number and dialed. A man answered, saying, "Hello." I politely said, "This is Chris. May I please speak with Robin Carter?" Suddenly, the phone was slammed down on me.

I couldn't believe that anyone could be so rude. I tracked down Robin's correct number and called her. I had transposed the last two digits of her phone number. After hanging up with her, I decided to call the "wrong" number again. When the same guy answered the phone, I yelled, "You're an asshole!" and hung up.

I wrote his number down with the word "asshole" next to it, and put it in my drawer. Every couple of weeks, when I was paying bills or had a really bad day, I'd call him up and yell, "You're an asshole!" It always cheered me up.

When Caller ID came to our area, I thought my therapeutic "asshole" calling would have to stop. So, I called his number and said, "Hi, this is John Smith from the Telephone Company. I'm just calling to see if you're interested in the Caller ID program?" He yelled, "NO!" and slammed the phone down. I quickly called him back and said, "That's because you're an asshole!"

One day I was at the store, getting ready to pull into a parking spot. Some guy in a black BMW cut me off and pulled into the spot I had patiently waited for. I hit the horn and yelled that I had been waiting for the spot.

The idiot ignored me. I noticed a "For Sale" sign in his car window, so I wrote down his number. A couple of days later, right after calling the first asshole, (I had his number on speed dial), I thought I had better call the BMW asshole, too.

I said, "Is this the man with the black BMW for sale?"

"Yes, it is."

"Can you tell me where I can see it?"

"Yes, I live at 1802 West Main Street. It's a yellow house, and the car's parked right out in front."

"What's your name?" I asked.

"My name is Don Hansen," he said.

"When's a good time to catch you, Don?"

I am home every evening after five."

"Listen, Don, can I tell you something?"

"Yes?"

"Don, you're an asshole."

Then I hung up, and added his number to my speed dial, too. Now, when I had a problem, I had two assholes to call.

But after several months of calling them, it wasn't as enjoyable as it used to be. So, I came up with an idea. I called Asshole #1.

"Hello."

"You're an asshole!" (But I didn't hang up.)

"Are you still there?" he asked.

"Yeah," I said.

"Stop calling me," he screamed.

"Make me," I said.

"Who are you?" he asked.

"My name is Don Hansen."

"Yeah? Where do you live?"

"Asshole, I live at 1802 West Main Street, a yellow house, with my black Beamer parked in front."

He said, "I'm coming over right now, Don. And you had better start saying your prayers."

I said, "Yeah, like I'm really scared, asshole."

Then I called Asshole #2.

"Hello?" he said.

"Hello, asshole," I said.

He yelled, "If I ever find out who you are!"

"You'll what?" I said.

"I'll kick your ass," he exclaimed.

I answered, "Well, asshole, here's your chance. I'm coming over right now."

Then I hung up and immediately called the police, saying that I lived at 1802 West Main Street, and that I was on my way over there to kill my gay lover.

Then I called Channel 3 News about the gang war going down on West Main Street. I quickly got into my car and headed over to Main Street. There I saw two assholes beating the crap out of each other in front of six squad cars, a police helicopter, and a news crew.

NOW, I feel better. Anger management really works!

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 07:47 AM

The only useful purpose in annoying an opponent is if this is a means of weakening them.   People seem to ignore that basic principle constantly.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 08:02 AM

"What does not kill me only makes me stronger"

Nietzsche.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 08:02 AM

One problem is that what is considered violent communication in one culture can be politically correct in another.

I'm flamed regularly for using the communication skills drilled into me during the "I-messages" phase of communication-style trends. Or to say it so certain folks don't take it the wrong way, "One can be flamed regularly for relying on the communication skills drilled into one during any particular phase of communication-style trends."

Whaddayagonna do? Can't please everybody, or mind-read in advance what anyone might prefer. Has to be worked out in relayshunship.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Peg
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 09:41 AM

It is interesting that one of the most insulting personal attacks ever leveled at me on this forum came from the person who started this thread...
and for a change, it was utterly undeserved.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:22 AM

Funny, I have never had any asperity from the author of the remarks Daylia quotes. So I am moved to wonder why? Maybe it is not the authors inherent nastiness, as Daylia would like us to infer; maybe it's what used to be called a personal;ity conflict, two incompatible ways of being.

In which case, an agreement to mutual ignoral might be in order.

But it is--speaking of verbal Akido -- no less an attack just because Dayli quotes them without attribution, because most folks here know who says what.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:26 AM

Didn't even open the Science and New Age thread---not a scientist and the only thing I could contribute to a New Age discussion would be rather pointed jokes, which really wouldn't bring much enlightenment. Still haven't opened the thread--looks rather daunting. Why do people post on a subject which won't change the world drastically in the near future ( in contrast to the US election, for instance) just to make personal attacks?

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:45 AM

I remember that, Peg. It was during the first couple months after I joined the Mudcat, when I was still a newbie to computers and had next to no experience on the internet. As I recall, the fight was about Pres Bush reading from the Bible after the astronauts were killed in the shuttle disaster. I had perceived your comments as a vehement attack on Christianity itself , and assumed that you were one of those disgruntled ex-Christian "new-ager" types I've found it quite a challenge to be around in the past. It was only after this misperception had escalated into a slugfest that I recognized the source of our "problem" as cultural - ie the differences between your environment and mine.

That fight was a great example of WYSISYG's observation above.

WHere I live, fundamentalist Christianity is not now nor has it ever been a social /political issue. For example, if the Prime Minister were to include a verse from the Bible in a public address, as a measure of condolence in response to a national tragedy, I doubt it would occur to anyone to perceive this as a covert political maneover.

When I'd learned more about the very different situation where you live and "walked a mile in your moccasins", I realized that if I were in your position I would most likely be sharing your concerns, angers and fears - not arguing with you! But by that time, pride and ego had become involved to such an extent I doubt you would have accepted an olive branch even if I could have offered you one.

I cannot undo the past, but I can change the present. I am dead serious about the "behavior modication" I spoke of in my first post. What does not kill me only makes me stronger ... and hopefully, wiser and more loving too. Thanks for that, and for your input on anger management too Foolestroupe. :-)

The only useful purpose in annoying an opponent is if this is a means of weakening them.

Yes. And especially when the topic of discussion includes the "spiritual", what better way to weaken your "opponents" than by attempting to evoke the least desirable of human character traits - anger, hate, violence etc - from them!

According to the principles of Verbal Aikido, one way around this is to practice choosing a different perspective. To stop thinking of the situation as either/or win/lose. To practice the and/or "your approach is different but complementary to mine" perspective instead. To find non-injurious ways of presenting and supporting your alternative or conflicting points of view. I do like this approach, and it does seem to help.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Peg
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:10 AM

Daylia, I'm not convinced you are making such an effort to change. You have quoted another Catter to use as an example of the behavior modification you're preaching about, and humiliated him/her in the process.

Just because you didn't compose a nasty, rhyming, childish poem about them (as you did me) doesn't make your current methods any less insulting.

Being new to the internet is no excuse for making up nasty rhymes about people and reciting them in public--I mean, didn't you learn about that in the schoolyard?

I have seen this on the 'Net before--people try to make up for their past behavior by demonizing that behavior in others, instead of just owning what they've done and acknowledging it for what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:13 AM

But it is--speaking of verbal Akido -- no less an attack just because Dayli quotes them without attribution, because most folks here know who says what.

Good insight, Amos. Ooooo I just wanna haul off and slug you one for that!   ;-)

While I posted those remarks as the most recent example of a situation that could have been avoided by practicing verbal Aikido, I suppose it could be a form of "attack" too. Emotions are still fresh.

*sigh*

In that case, it would probably be best just to delete the series of remarks from my first post, as well as the one sentence preceeding them. I was hoping to put out some useful ideas and generate some dialogue here, not to instigate another slugfest.

So please, ye Joe Clones, I hereby request the stated deletion.


Maybe it is not the authors inherent nastiness, as Daylia would like us to infer; maybe it's what used to be called a personal;ity conflict, two incompatible ways of being.

Personality conflict, maybe. I think compatability is largely dependent on perception and effort - so I'm not giving up hope.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:15 AM

Here's a quarter, daylia... go call somebody and see if they'll send you a whhhhhaaaaaambulance...

Poor widdwe muffin... somebody said something YOU didn't like... awwwww...

While yer ordering that whhhhaaambulance, you'd better call someone to come build you a bridge so you can get over it...

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:18 AM

I've never studied Aikido, but I did briefly study martial arts. It's the whole Yin/Yang thing vs. the western "equal and opposite reation." When someone pushes, you can push back, or you can let their energy flow through and past you. You can USE their energy, or you can let it dissipate.

I've come to see the need to energetically "push back" as a weakness. It's someone else controlling my feelings, what I say and how I say it. Aikido, and most martial arts, is based on maintaining your own balance while making (or simply letting) your opponent lose theirs. It's a lot more likely you'll lose your balance if you stand rigid and take a direct hit. Better to simply move out of the way or let the energy spin you in a direction you want to go.

I don't know if it's just me, but the world seems to be filling up with mentally brittle people who are firmly embedded in their philisophical soil like dry, dead trees. When a good strong wind hits, they break.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:18 AM

As can be seen, there are those who are threatened by any discussion that might remove the only arguement that they are capable of using.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:22 AM

Well Peg, making up childish little poems is a tension release for some of us, just like using a string of   &!!##$$((&n

The %%$$!###@** approach has never appealed to me, and I know I've chosen the stupid poetry option before - a type of "Humor: a Veil for Verbal Violence".

I cannot change the past or anyone else's behavior but my own. I've put myself "on notice" here in front of you all for a reason - and Time will tell.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:23 AM

LOL Clinton!   :-)

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Peg
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:36 AM

Try herbal tea.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:40 AM

What kind do you like?

I've tried a "good mood" blend with St John's wart, lavender flowers, sage leaf, bergamot, rose petals etc and hey - it might be the "placebo effect" but it does seem to take the edge off.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Peace
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 12:49 PM

Sometimes the needs of the moment require a strike rather than a parry or an evasion. Aikido is a method of fighting, and before getting too spiritual about it all, (the meditation and 'spirituality' aspect of the martial arts that many people groove to), please remember that the purpose of martial arts is to end fights by

1) not engaging in the fight
2) avoiding the fight
3) escaping from the fight         or
4) laying a real shit kicking on the attacker(s)

If you continue to parry or avoid without leaving, eventually you will be hurt. There is a point after which patience and tolerance becomes indulgence and stupidity. That point is different for all people.

I don't know a heckuva lot about akaido--other than it is a neat fighting style (see the movies of Steven Seagal). But I do know something of wing chun, and the principles are 'similar'. Basically, if you don't want a fight, attack the behaviour or the post, not the person. But don't ever expect to attack the person with impunity. Not too many people have the will or desire to be attacked personally on the internet or in life. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: mack/misophist
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 03:18 PM

There's something about e-mail and forums such as this that can bring out the worst in people. It's been happening for years. Emoticons were invented to try to take the edge off satirical exchanges. The best, the only good, response is to keep it all at arms length.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:35 PM

TOUCHE





TOUCHE





TOUCHE

so what's next????

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:39 PM

I Aikido'd for several years. Since it doesn't depend on strrength, I thought it would be something I could do when I got old. The joke's on me. Got as far as brown belt and developed an inner ear problem, which makes it hard to pivot or roll without puking.

Too bad; bouncing around on the mats was as much fun as playing in my grandfather's hayloft. And it's fun to watch.

Aikido is more a point of view than a series of techniques. My sensei said that there are several thousand aikido techniques, but "there's really only one."

Mostly the techniques involve evasion and redirecting the bad guy, using throws and joint locks to damage him as little as possible, but the technique for dealing with the bad guy who attacks you across the corner of the bar is to block his blow and punch him off his barstool.

I keep telling myself that I should be better at verbal aikido. It seems to be harder for me to do it in writing than face to face. Words alone are not a good medium for me, and I'm afraid I sound more hostile and dogmatic than I mean to.

Ah well...

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:47 PM

PS--

One of the things I like about Aikido is you can't have tournaments because it's all defense; there are no attacks. The contestants would just have to stand there and look at each other.

clint

& if there are any martial arts pedants out there, I know about Tomiki Aikido. Don't get me started.

ck

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:41 PM

Within the discipline Aikido you would never purposely start a fight or place yourself in the situation where people are likely to start fighting you. I am afraid you failed at the first hurdle, Daylia. I am not saying this fram a nasty or hurtful point of view. I hope you take it as constructive critisism. Feel free to defend yourself on the principles suggested but it is a bit silly to quote Aikido principles in a pre-emptive attack.

And yes, I have studied Aikido in a small way. Didn't suit me but none of the Japanese arts ever have. Too rigid for my liking:-( If you realy want to apply martial principles to discourse try one of the internal arts instead. Tai Chi is a good start but Ba Gua and Xing-Yi will help deepen your understanding. As a fist step however I would recommend skipping the martial side and going for Qi Gung. A good bit of deep breathing and Qi (Chi) stengthening will help to rid you of the need to fight in the first place:-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome
(Not quite Sifu but hoping to get there eventualy...)

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:42 PM

Martial arts? None of them can match the ancient Lancashire martial art of Ecky-Thump...

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:50 PM

Or remember the Python book (Brand new Monty Python Bok???) with the ancient Welsh art of Llap Goch? That was attack anyone before they attack you come to think of it...

Ecky-Thump involved back puddings didn't it?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:53 PM

That's really interesting, Clint - thanks! All defense, no attacks ... hmmm. You must have practiced how to knock that guy off his bar stool though - or is Aikido mostly kata.

Ditto about sounding more hostile or one-sided than intended. I agree with mack - there does seem to be something about the net that can bring out the worst in people. Could be the almost instantaneous speed of messaging PLUS the anonymity, the emotional implications of "wearing a mask".

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:11 PM

Dave, I knew nothing about Aikido principles except what I'd read a while ago in the article I posted. Thanks to you, brucie, Clint etc I know a lot more by the hour - and I'm liking it more every minute!

I have been practicing basic Qigong exercises, including Ba Duan Jin for about a year now. And yes - there does seem to be far fewer "good reasons" to fight these days! I really enjoy the Qigong - it relieves tension and stress, improves breathing and flexibility, increases vitality, works well with meditation and with the Huna energetic techniques I practice (Huna uses deep breathing as well). I've never heard of Ba Gua or Xing Ti.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:44 PM

There's no real kata in Aikido, in the sense of the one-person dance. Mostly one person makes a predetermined attack -- wrist grasp, straight punch, whatever--and the other person uses the technique of the day to foil him.

So attacks are indeed taught in order to properly learn the defenses; it's attacking pre-emptively that's forbidden.

For the tests there are a number of prescribed techniques you must know, and a free period in which you are attacked in any way the opponent likes, and you defend as you like. You do the technique, but you, say, bend the elbow forward instead of backward, for instance. (And you only knock the guy off the bar stool after he's pulled the knife.)

I must agree with Dave the Gnome: the only thing I don't like about Aikido is that it's so damn Japanese. Formality, bushido, and all that. (insert grin). But it was the only internal art in town.

I'd have preferred Ba Gua, partly because it does have kata of a sort, but I've only been able to get to is a seminar in Seattleand a week's camp on Kootenai Lake. Ba Gua 101.

But Qi Gong is more accessible and more easily learned from a book or tape.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:53 PM

I practice Martial Arts too. I do a little Ba Da Bing and a little Ba Da Boom, you know, fuhgeddaboudit!

Okay, so that was humor, but was it verbal violence? MAYBE, as it could be read to belittle daylia's point. That wasn't the intention, daylia.

On thing that's unfortunate about this thread is with the deletions and allusions to previous insults, I don't know what half the posts are about...

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:55 PM

It appears from the comments in this thread that the event of my DSL connection being out has spared my seeing my own words edited out of their original context, put back into play with an intentionally nasty spin, and posted here in an attempt to pre-emptively win a new verbal battle. I still don't have the high-speed connection, so will slog along on dial up to make these few remarks before going back to my weekend chores.

I recognize the "verbal violence--verbal aikido" line from an article daylia posted on another thread as a way to somehow imply that I was responsible for her bad behavior. So I must assume I was the target of this thread, however much the originator might plead an interest in altruism.

I have never initiated a thread here to start or to continue an argument. My thanks to whichever clone went ahead and removed the remarks that were so ungenerously posted by daylia. Judging from the reactions here, she got more carried away than usual.

My reaction to all of this? Given time to think, I'd say that daylia is lucky I didn't see it. When I am actually angry (and that doesn't happen often), I have been known to pull out the double-sharp words and compose a response that, when read by those who don't know any better, sounds like a mere rebuttal, but to those with the intellectual capacity for puns and double entendre, is a series of pointed and usually funny insults. Those kinds of responses take time to craft, usually shred the target, but never really serve anyone's best interest and they're in the long run a waste of time. It's overkill--the bazooka to swat the mosquito syndrome.

Now I'm going to mow my lawn before the local mosquitoes get to be a nuisance. I don't think the DSL is going to be up until late Sunday at the earliest, so I'll just have to see what evolves here at a later date. It would be nice, however, if this thread were to slip below the line and go away.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 07:06 PM

The plot thickens...and I STILL wish I knew what was going on!

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 07:09 PM

Surely there is a difference between being "flamed" and having someone disagree vehemently with one's view? Being told off when I have gone too far or have made a flippant or insensitive statement goes with the territory.

People here have disagreed with me but that is only normal and to be expected. I have been wrong a time or two in my life and chances are I will be wrong at least one more time before I die. ;~) There may be times when I change my opinion due to someone's stating why I am wrong. And there may be times when someone disagrees with me that I remain convinced that I am right. I have never equated disagreement with being flamed.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 07:50 PM

Clint, the method of grading in Aikido sounds a lot like Jiu Jitsu (the only Japanese martial art in my immediate vicinity). Kata is an important element of Jiu Jitsu, though. It was my kid's least favorite aspect, although I enjoyed it; maybe appreciation for kata develops with age.

Oh and BTW - I did learn Zhan Zhuang Qigong and Ba Duan Jin   
(The Eight Fine Exercises, or the Eight Strands of the Brocade) from a book, almost identical to the pages at the links.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 09:38 PM

Aikido is a lot like jiu jitsu. Less strength, more ki (chi, qi) than in Jiu jitsu. Whatever "ki" is.

Similar words, whole different tunes, as it were.

I can't remember kata unless there's a story that goes with it.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:06 PM

Kata with a story ... sounds like Tai Chi!

Chi, or ki (also qi) means life-force energy. From the Zhan Zhuang Qigong article;

Qigong means "an exercise to develop chi, (also spelled qi) "the energy of life." This particular form of qigong, Zhan Zhuang, is about four thousand years old, and is used from everything from building strength for martial arts to self-healing, lowering blood pressure, increasing respiration and alertness, reducing stress and pain, and improving health and energy overall.

Zhan Zhuang means "standing like a tree," aptly called, because all the Zhan Zhuang postures are performed standing, in utter motionlessness.


Now Verbal Zhan Zhuang Qigong would be, I suppose, "talking like a tree".

Hmmmm. Sounds like an interesting solution for "verbal violence".

:-)   daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:24 PM

I have studied kendo for over 20 years now and I still teach.

Aikido, kendo, judo are both 'do' forms. The 'do' means way. By a way they mean a method of self improvement.

The purpose of studying a 'do' form of martial art is not to inflict injury on a person, it is a method of using action to train ones mind where one has an opponent. The ideal being that one ends up with an ability to assess a situation and react to it in a calm manner. If you are defeated then you learn to accept it calmy.

The 'do' forms were developed from the 'justu' forms which do have a much more martial connotation. Kenjutsu was the method of training a swordsman to use a sword with total efficiency or fear.

Aikijutsi was a mothod of unarmed combat as non samurai were not allowed to use swords. One hears the term ronin, masterless samurai, who often acted as bandits. Non samurai needed to develop a method of non armed self defence against these people, using either their hands or farm tools. That is why today you still see bokken (wooden swords) used in kata.

Yes there is a lot of spirituality in studying a 'do' or 'jutsu' form, but generally that comes later when one has developed the basic techniques which take you up to the 'dan' grades (black belts)Even the first three dan grades in kendo are still mostly the studying of techniques. It is from fourth dan and above that you start to get an insite to the way of training your mind not to think but to react to an opponents movements. Using mentally intimidating techniques such as covering the opponents eye not his throat with a sword in the middle guard position. Attacking the slightest weakness or opening.

All martial arts make use of kata. A kata is a method of studying a technique, breaking it down into component parts. In kendo we always have an opponent. It is the duty of the senior to lead the junior through a kata. Even though the swords are wooden a blow can be injurous.

In kenjutsu and kendo the kata's are choreographed, but the basic precept is to make a person use a sword as an extension of his body not something you are just holding. Increased study of kata in kendo allows you to learn to use techniques without thinking. Much as a musician does who studies scales and arpegio's.

I have also done live blade kata which adds a certain extra to the practice. In kata the cuts are stopped just short agin training the person in the use of the sword.

Much has been written good and bad over the years about the philosphy of martial arts. To take that deep philisophy and apply it to the purpose of verbal violance is not a good one.

Good practionioners of a martial art are not wooses but neither do they bully. Those that do do not last long in the martial arts.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:26 PM

I've seen definitions of chi, and I suppose I can use it to some extent, but I don't know if it's an entity on its own or a combination of other things. Calling it "intrinsic energy," as some do, doesn't mean anything to me.

But in Aikido using your (muscular) strength for a technique is a fault. Using more than is needed to stand up and move around, anyway. Have an Aikidoist show you the Immovable Arm if you can.

clint

Verbal Zhan Zhuang Qigong: Ent Fu

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:29 PM

Sorry left something out.

Martial artists (good ones) always respect their opponents.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Peace
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:24 PM

Understand your enemy as yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:33 PM

Understand your enemy IS yourself.



sorry; couldn't resist.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:38 PM

I have dabbled a bit in the martial arts in a few practical ways over the years, but it was mostly 'book research', as I have always been more of an intellectual than a physical sort of person. I did take advantage of The Australian Academy of Tai Chi who conducted a voluntary workshop thru my work place. I don't know what 'family' their art is - but when I had the opportunity to try some Chen, I was absolutely blown away over just how much more aggressive that style was!

But it was when I had the opportunity to do a couple of Escrima seminars with Cacao Canette (the 12 angles method) who came out in his old age to tour Australia, that my mind was opened, and I became 'enlightened'. It was the most amazing physically aggressive, yet mentally calming thing I had done.

The art, which he had a strong development input into from a traditional history, had elements of Tai Chi, Akido, and many others which he had studied. It is, as far as I know, the only Martial system which starts you off with weapons (with perhaps the exception of the related art of Kali which uses metal weapons instead of rattan sticks), and then you naturally realise that you can fight unarmed, even against armed opponents without much further specialised training. The secret is that from the beginning, you study angles of attack and corresponding modes of defence as the primary thing - the weapons themselves then become irrelevant to the techniques. The fastest way between two points is a circle. The basic training involves being able to fight from lying down on the floor and continue to fight while standing up. The speed at which he takes you into the techniques is truly astonishing!

When I attended his second seminar, he insisted that I stand with 'The Advanced Students' who had been studying for years! The katas that we did were absolutely amazing. The First - done with three players, involved 6 attackers, and started out with a defensive move over the head to fend off the attack aimed at one's back. When one cycle was finished, the three rotated, and thus one full cycle was 3 times thru, doing all the various attacks & defences (using all 12 angles!)! The other katas were so much more complex, that I cannot remember the details, as life took me away from being able to carry on with the practise, and I can't find anyone local to keep up with it.

The style also includes the 'espada et daga', which is traced back to the Spanish C15 Sword and Dagger techniques, from when they invaded the 'East Indies'. I became totally unperturbed by the fact that we were going full speed, full strength blows, fractions of an inch past one's head and body without any fear of being hurt, so confident did one become of anticipating the attacks and being capable of reflexively using the correct defence. The techniques are fairly common in Indonesia, and Cacao had been strongly instrumental in outlawing the 'fights to the death' done with hardwood sticks - in which he was acknowledged as having killed over 100. He finally said, "Enough is enough, this is wrong, there is no point". Incidentally, he also fought the Japanese during WWII - a truly interesting, but very humble guy - he didn't have to prove a thing!

I have always found that the absolute best in any field are truly wonderful human beings - it's only ever the second raters that need to order everybody around and demonstrate their 'pseudo-greatness' to everybody (including most especially thhemselves!).

Something to keep in mind and strive for.... ;-)

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:23 AM

I have just started Warriors Escrima, Robin and, yes, it's brilliant! Get a bit worried about the sticks whan whizzing about but I will soon get the knack. Or end up with a few bruises...;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:46 AM

Robin, Sensei Shanghaiceltic - WOW I feel like I've been at an all-day martial arts seminar just reading your posts. :-) I do appreciate your taking the time to post all this information and intriguing first-hand experience with the martial arts.

Increased study of kata in kendo allows you to learn to use techniques without thinking. Much as a musician does who studies scales and arpeggio's.

That's exactly how I tried to explain it to my kids. Still didn't seem to spark much enthusiasm.

Much has been written good and bad over the years about the philosphy of martial arts. To take that deep philisophy and apply it to the purpose of verbal violance is not a good one.

I'm wondering if you could please expand on your thoughts a bit, Sensei. I'm seeing several ways the philosophy/training of the martial arts might possibly be applied to "verbal violence". To quote a few of you:

When someone pushes, you can push back, or you can let their energy flow through and past you. You can USE their energy, or you can let it dissipate ... Aikido, and most martial arts, is based on maintaining your own balance while making (or simply letting) your opponent lose theirs. It's a lot more likely you'll lose your balance if you stand rigid and take a direct hit. Better to simply move out of the way or let the energy spin you in a direction you want to go.
(Interesting insights, Jeri - thank you very much!)

The secret is that from the beginning, you study angles of attack and corresponding modes of defence as the primary thing - the weapons themselves then become irrelevant to the techniques.

Understand your enemy as yourself ...

Understand your enemy IS yourself.
(I like that! Thanks Clint!)

Good practionioners of a martial art are not wooses but neither do they bully. Those that do do not last long in the martial arts.

The purpose of studying a 'do' form of martial art is not to inflict injury on a person; it is a method of using action to train ones mind where one has an opponent. The ideal being that one ends up with an ability to assess a situation and react to it in a calm manner. If you are defeated then you learn to accept it calmly.

... it's all defense; there are no attacks... it's attacking pre-emptively that's forbidden.

Mostly the techniques involve evasion and redirecting the bad guy .... to damage him as little as possible, but the technique for dealing with the bad guy who attacks you across the corner of the bar is to block his blow and punch him off his barstool.

Sometimes the needs of the moment require a strike rather than a parry or an evasion. Aikido is a method of fighting, and before getting too spiritual about it all ... please remember that the purpose of martial arts is to end fights by
1) not engaging in the fight
2) avoiding the fight
3) escaping from the fight or
4) laying a real shit kicking on the attacker(s)


Certainly the emphasis in both the military and "softer" forms of the martial arts (such as Qigong) on the importance of building up one's own energy, conserving and using it wisely (only when necessary) could be applied to verbal exchanges as well. I'm wondering if it's because you know the purpose of the martial arts as being too aggressive or "military", Shanghaiceltic?

I've seen definitions of chi, and I suppose I can use it to some extent, but I don't know if it's an entity on its own or a combination of other things. Calling it "intrinsic energy," as some do, doesn't mean anything to me.

Well I haven't met too many Westerners who understand or accept the idea of "life force energy" easily. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think many of the martial arts themselves focus to any great extent on chi until the physical aspects (ie techniques, throws, blocks, holds etc) have been mastered.

I don't understand chi as an "entity on it's own", but rather as a subtle yet fundamental part of every human being's "anatomy". Without it, there'd be nothing to animate the "matter" than I am. I'd be nothing but a little pile of chemicals and a pool of water.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:01 AM

Many of the Chinese arts focus on the Chi before the physical aspects. Certain schools of Kung Fu will not teach the form until the pupil has shown mastery of his or her own spirit.

Probably quite sensible really. If the recruiting sergeant insisted that soldiers could manage their anger before they were given a gun we would probably all be better off:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:00 PM

I have never equated disagreement with being flamed.

I'd wholly agree there. But there is a difference between expressing disagreement, or responding in a highly critical way, and coming out with a stream of insults which are totally unrelated to the disagreement.   

Som people do seem to fall very easily into doing that kind of thing. And one of the results is that people who don't like that kind of thing can start to assume that disagreement can't be expressed in other ways, and that it should therefore be avoided, even at the risk of blandness.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 07:49 PM

One of my sensei in Japan had practiced kendo from the age of 6. He was 75 at the time he was teaching me, a splendid man all round.

He spent a lot of time teaching me to make an attack at the same time as the opponent began theirs. His point was that often a slightly weaker opponent would be thinking, thus slowing down slightly the timing of their attack. He taught me never to do defensive kendo as he felt it was empty.

I heard the same from another sensie who was part of the current Emporers bodyguards. He told me that they had to train to attack as to defend would mean that an attack could come through. He applied that thinking to his job as a bodyguard. If the situtation arises where you are forced to do something do not defend. Defence in their thinking is considered a negative thinking.

This type of technique was also taught in the old koryu (old school) known as Musen Ryu, musen = No Mind = no thinking no defence.

The early years of studying martial arts are mostly the study of technique. Once you have good technique then the philosphy starts to come in to help with the way you begin to understand how your mind should be working. Dont let the philosphy cloud the learning of kihon (basic techniques.

D T Suzuki published a very good book on Zen and the sword. I think it was published by Tuttle. Worth buying as the philosphy he expounded can be applied to all martial arts.

I am still reserved on the application of this to verbal abuse expect to maintain a calm mind. A few years ago the very old writings that appeared in Go Rin No Sho (Books of Five Rings) by Musashi Miyamoto were sort of high jacked for business people. It made a mint for the people who tried to apply his thinking (which was very obtuse at times) to business practise.

I see more application to the way you should learn music, performing without actually allowing thinking about it to slow you down and cause you to make mistakes in your playing.

Also the study of techniqes as a basis for good playing, learning patience, perseverance.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Peace
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:00 PM

I suppose to add on to what many people have said I could add the following.

Shanghaiceltic aced a principle of many martial arts when he expressed that if you have to think about what you're gonna do, it's too late to do it. You are hit. It reminded me of something that happened in a class many years back. We were being taught some responses to grabs. One had to do with the arm/hand. Opponent grabs yer arm and pulls. The natural tendency is to try to pull back. Just as when someone grabs yer jacket or hair, etc. If you then pull back, the stronger will 'win' the tugging match. However, if you go with the grab--that is, step towards it and strike as you step, the person grabbing will let go as they fall. It allows a person of a diminuitive stature to damage a person who is substantially taller or bigger. But, that is not a 'natural' response, and application of the 'do' part of the art will allow a practitioner to overcome the natural inclination and become extremely effective with what the opponent will perceive as a counter attack (and it's nothing of the sort, it just looks that way).

My master drummed into us that it takes 5000 repetitions to make a 'move' your own. That is part of the purpose of katas, patterns, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:07 PM

Foolestroupe; That anger management message was great. Thank you for posting it.

ANL - 2B