BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 11:26 PM

Yo, Richie:

The 3,000 "Patriots" (Ha!) expected to be launched in the 1st 48 hours against Iraq don't care about women and children either. Estimates of upwards of 100,000 woman and children will be killed by the *good guys*.

Go figure....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 11:35 PM

The rumor I'm refering to goes like this. When the shooting starts, all the stuff we know he has will be fired from just inside Iraq along the Syrian border.

Why does this not surprise me? Could it be that Syria is the next country that Israel has her sights set on in her conquest for domination over all of the middle east? Of course it is. Next country after Iraq that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Richie
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 11:41 PM

Bobert,

That means Saddam knows that 100,000 of his people will be killed and will not cooperate or remove himself from power...proving he doesn't give a rat's tail about human life.

I'm hoping the world will unite against him...even the left, so that he can be forced out without a war. But he needs to go.

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Barry Finn
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 11:52 PM

All I heard today was Colin Cancer spouting the same fluff again. Think about what's being presented. If I walked into a court of law with the evidence he presented I'd be disbared, dismembered & darn studip. With all this he say, she say shit I'd say it wouldn't be enough to toss someone in death row never mind into battle. Are they not held to the same standards of proof that they hold all of US to? That was a 3rd rate crime report. I remember how & what we were told during the Viet Nam police action. Cambodia & Laos were off limits & at the same time my brother was there covertly with the CIA doing what they do best while under cover. And you wonder why people won't take them at their word this time around. Screw my once shame on you, screw me twice shame on me. We have (along with a host of others) the ability to create any scene to fit the situation so as Americans isn't it are duty to make damn sure before we go off on a twenty first century crusade (whoa, been there, done that)? If we don't & we go this alone we may find that the UN has to declare US as a rouge nation & put the dogs on US. That tiny little spec of dust over there wouldn't be capable of nor have the resources to lob a football at us never mind being wage war. Didn't we already disable them when they were in far better shape than they are now. Please. Honey duck they're throwing carrots at us. Let's nuke 'em with all our weapons of mass destruction. Korea is so far along in this area that they might as well Iraq & save us the cost or maybe do it from close range Isreal (pun) don't they also have the capablity? What happened when they got theirs? They are no more of a threat to us than Bora Bora is. Colin "Chicken Little" Cancer is asking us to fear not Iraq but to fear itself & the unknown. There are to many what if's, but's, maybe's, guess's, suppose's & a convinent amount of 2nd & 3rd hand speculation. I am not one to follow any politican frothing at the mouth like a rabid dog into the arena. If anyone wants my kid's life they can wait till hell freezes over before I take them at their word. I didn't bare & raise a child to watch him become a tool to be discarded or disposed of on the whim of anyone's say-so jail house source no matter who or what is wearing the strips. Did we not lose enough humans in the past needlessly. Is the real goal to do earth the big favor of cutting back on all the mouths that she needs to support & feed in favor of giving more to the few with an eating disorder? Pleae again. We have enough here to sustain the globe on, it's no wonder countries are getting pissed at us, for making all the wrong moves for the wrong reason. Our Founding Fathers had something better in mind for us than that. We are the most powerful, richest, advanced nation in the world, we should be waging a war on a host of things but not on people. War is failure & a last resort. We can be part of the solution or be part of the problem, which ever we choose we will be the big part. Brace yourself for cold war II & world war III. Is it worth it? Is there enough to warrant this? Who gives a twit what about the one who dies with the most toys wins? Lastly, what ever we choose we will have it coming back in ten fold & we'll deserve every bit of it, good or bad, our choice. We are choosing not just for ourselves (we sometimes don't see this), we're choosing for the citizens of the world, even the most remote place on earth will sharply feel the results. Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Richie
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 12:04 AM

Barry,

It only took a dozen terrorists to kill thousands on 9-11. If Saddam and terrorist are left alone they will attack and kill as many as they can.

Military might over Iraq has nothing to do with it. It's getting the bad guys before they get us.

How many Iraqi lives will we save if we get rid of Saddam now? Isn't that the main thing...to make the world a safer place.

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 12:06 AM

Are we going to kill all of the bad guys in the world then, Richie? All of them, before they get us? What will that make us then? Good guys? You've got to be kidding me.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Richie
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 12:13 AM

Carol,

I thought murderers were put in jail, or sould they just be left alone...no sense trying to take care of them.

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: DougR
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 12:15 AM

Carol C: your last post illuminates your prejudice against Israel, right?

Jed: It is too much to expect that those who are so opposed to disarming Saddam, and bringing about a change in leadership in Iraq, thereby freeing the Iraqi people from one of the most repressive regimes in history, would expend the time necessary to hear the evidence presented to the UN Security Council today.

I think you are being kind when you say to kat, and others, that they are not supporting Saddam after the evidence was presented by our Secretary of State today to the UN Security Council.

Who are they supporting? Not the the U. S.! Not the people of Iraq (or perhaps they do not accept the fact that the people there are repressed!). Is it fair to say they are supporting Germany and France? I would assume so.

I heard today on Fox News Network that fifty countries have signed on to support the U. S. position on Iraq. So the US is not alone in it's effort to rid the world of the threat Saddam presents to the world.

If the UN doesn't enforce it's own rules, why does it make them? If they don't enforce their own rules, why have a UN?

Perhaps the best course of action for the U.S. would be for us to completely withdraw from the situation. Bring our troops back home, and let Germany, France, and those few nations that do not see Saddam as a threat handle the situation.

Would my friends on the Mudcat find that a more acceptable role for the U. S.? I look forward to your replies.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 03:12 AM

Perhaps the best course of action for the U.S. would be for us to completely withdraw from the situation. Bring our troops back home, and let Germany, France, and those few nations that do not see Saddam as a threat handle the situation.

Well, that would be a start. Why are we in the USA so sure of Saddam's immediate threat to us when his neighbors are not? And don't tell me about the twin towers tragedy. That was not Hussein! If it were, the evidence would be blazoned across our foreheads.

So we go in and blast Iraq into a imitation of Afghanistan- and we will not have addressed one imminent problem of terrorism. Other than our own. We will have killed tens of thousands of people whose only crime is that they don't like us. But by God we will have gotten the Big Bastard, who dared plot against somebody's daddy. (Or will we? We haven't found bin Laden, now have we.)

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 05:07 AM

Hysterical quote from a Bobertgram high above:

"What I can not live with is misinformation, manipulation of people using such and some 3,000 Patriot missles raining down on Bagdad in the first 48 hours. That's the word that "unidentified officials" are leaking left and right about the US war plan."

If such an event were to occur as described by Bobert above, the resulting Iraqi death-toll would be 0.

Your "unidentified officials" in whom you base such faith Bobert must be the most "misinformed" and manipulated people on this planet.

Why do I say so?

The Patriot missile and it's associated control system is designed to intercept and destroy ballistic missiles, as such it has a no offensive capability whatsoever. Please read below:

"Patriot is a long-range, all-altitude, all-weather air defence system to counter tactical ballistic missiles, cruise missiles and advanced aircraft.

As well as the USA, Patriot is in service with Germany, Greece, Israel, Japan, Kuwait, the Netherlands, Saudi Arabia and Taiwan. It has been cleared for sale to Egypt.

The range of the missile is 70km and maximum altitude is greater than 24km. The minimum flight time is the time to arm the missile, which is less than 9s, and the maximum flight time is less than 3½mins."

Tomahawks, Bobert, Tomahawks - they are the cruise missiles that would be fired, and even according to your old pal Ira Chernus (remember the Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Colorado, Boulder) the estimated number was 800, not 3000.

Thanks for the posts above Taliesn and Jed - very well put, rational, factual and objective.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 07:11 AM

It surely is ironic that Bobert gives three misinformations in a sentence starting with the words What I can not live with is misinformation but you, Teribus, are a clever debater too. You use two more misinformations by Bobert in the same sentence to make a point.

I'm sure you know as well as I do, that the number 3000 Bobert cites has been published by several sources as the expected number of missiles and bombs together (I'm not sure, is the word describing both of them together warheads?) to fall on Iraq within the first 48 hours.

If we now assume that Bobert had meant to write 'Tomahawk' instead of 'Patriot', 'warhead' (?) instead of 'missile', and 'Iraq' instead of 'Bagdad' the resulting sentence would have been quite close to truth. So what Bobert had meant to post was perhaps correct.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 07:28 AM

Hiya Doug,

Total American withdrawal. An extremely interesting hypothesis.

Now what would that do?

1. Scare the hell out of the United Nations. As pointed out by both your President, last September, and by your Secretary of State, yesterday, the United Nations, as a credible international organisation, has arrived at a defining moment - Whether it likes it, or not, it must act, and it must act with convincing authority. If the U.S. withdraws, then UN knows that it will become nothing more than a totally irrelevant talking shop.

2. The United states would then have to place it's reliance on defence from "international terrorism", on increasing awareness and counter-measures domestically, and, in investing heavily on developing their own high-grade, world-wide intelligence gathering network. This cannot be regarded as providing any guarantee that attacks such as the current administration are warning about will not happen, in fact America's withdrawal will actually increase the odds of such an even happening. Irrespective of future American presence, withdrawal, engagement or isolation - the U.S. is the proclaimed target. (I was going to add the admonition "Defend yourselves as best you can" - but the guys you have in office at present are already doing that to an audience that apparently is totally unappreciative of that threat or their efforts).

3. Having withdrawn from an extremely vital region would create a vacuum that in the normal course of things will encourage one of the following. It may encourage those within the region to act, in a manner they would would otherwise have been more circumspect about. It may encourage others outside the region to engage and fill that vacuum. Either way the prognosis for the region as a whole would not be hopeful or beneficial and countries whose entire economic well-being is reliant on "Gulf" oil would become extremely vulnerable and anxious.

4. For Iraq itself, the inspection programmes could be brought to an end, either by increased non-cooperation, or, by the expulsion of the inspection teams. Iraq would then petition for all UN sanctions to be lifted, on the premise that since 1998 they have been a joke, and that the UN no longer has the means to enforce them. Iraq would then be free to pursue whatever course the Ba'ath regime in power choses.

5. Should any real emergency situation arise - there is nobody capable of dealing with it, or to give potential protagonists cause to think before they act. So the UN would be constrained to act as it did in Rwanda, i.e. sit on the side lines uttering extremely eloquent dialogue until such time as the killing stops, after which they turn up, pontificate as to the evil that is man and depart the scene having done nothing apart from possibly set up some lame-duck tribunal that eventually becomes part of the established UN junket circuit. However given the rhetoric and statements made within certain European countries, I would rather hope that they were nominated or earmarked to supply any forces required to intervene in said emergency situations, the U.S. & UK of course would stay out of it completely.

Well Doug,

It certainly doesn't sound like a recipe for success to me, the only guy who seems to come out ahead in the above is Bobert's pal Saddam Hussein.

Peace and Love

Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 08:17 AM

Wolfgang,

What Bobert posted as purporting to be "fact" was inaccurate, unsubstantiated, subjective opinion.

On one hand we are advised that we should not believe anything written or stated, in news articles, newspapers, government reports and recorded proceedings backed up by authoritive sources. While on the other hand the same people advising us of the aforementioned quote endlessly from articles to lend credibility to their point of view and expect it to be taken as set-in-stone, hard-and-fast, irrefutable fact.

Well I am sorry, I just will not swallow that. If anybody, on any topic, goes into print, they should at least proof read what they are about to submit before pressing the button.

In this particular instance, by naming Patriot instead of Tomahawk and by then quoting the source as "unidentified officials" privy to U.S. war planning, Bobert only succeeds in reinforcing my belief that what he (Bobert) regards as authoritive sources are in fact anything but.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 09:15 AM

fplks folks folks...
Vertually every American war begins with a lie, and those which don't begin with a manufactured event often. Even wars which most folks feel were moraly defendable, such as the Second World War, remember the Greer Kearny and the Rubin James? Well, they are now know to have been running at a U Boat's snorkle, forcing the event.
The fact is the best way to deal with Moslem extreemism, is to foster ecconomic rather than military competition, which we are not about to do. We support Moslem extreemists, such as Kallada Zia in Bangladesh, because as long as Asia and the Mid East is fighting sectarian wars, they will not be forming a Asian united ecconomic entity as Western Europe has done. So, we keep the pot boiling, using the unrest to excuse adventurism abroad and loss of rights at home.
Unfortunatly friends, when the America you believe in has been sold out to the Patriot Act and other acts of tyranny, you will be so afraid of the dreaded Eastern Threat you wont notice the loss of you own nation to theives and dictators.
Sorry
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:53 AM

T:

Sorry, make that Tomahawks. Didn't mean to get you all twisted up.

Ohters:

Speaking of twisted up, how'd every one like Powell's *smoke and mirrors* pony show, yesterday. I just finished reading the text of it and I'm with Barry on this one. Nothing but heresay.

I keep in mind history here. When the military industrialists wanted a war in Vietnam, they *invented* the "Gulf of Tonkin Incident".

When the military industrialists wanted a war against Iraq, they *invented* a story about "babies being takien from the incubators".

So now they come at us with another batch of PR crapola.

Let's keep in mind that from Day One, this administration has done virually nothing to promote diplomacy and peace on the planet. Look at just how far they have come in creating a very dangerous global situation. Now lets take a short inventory of how we got where we are:

1. The first blunder (intentional or not) was to turn its back on two decades of US involvement in trying to act as referee/go-bewteew/negotiator/arbitrator of the Isreali/Palistinian conflict. Well, we soon found out what that decision brought the region.

2. In turning our back, we also sent a signal to the Islamic world that we'd didn't care diddly crap about them or their concerns and that created a wonderful opportuinity for extremists to organize and feel justified in carrying out 9/11. Great job, fellers.

3. Then they buddied up to a repressive and dangerous Pakistan so we would have a ground base to attack Afganistan, which of course we did.

4. After ousting the Taliban from most of Afganistan we turned out attention quickly to other part of the world where the military industrialist could get their jollies leaving Afganistan to be run by the some of the same warlords that had created the problems to begin with.

5. Now we read that the Taliban and the bin Laden's are moving back into Afganistan, but who cares? (Details, Bobert...)

6. Then the blunder to beat all blunders. The "Axis of Evil" speech which did nothing more than tell the world that the US was in the mood to *whack* some folks and now we wonder why so many folks are preparing to defent themselves.

7. Which leads us to yesterday.

Now, for you folks who think that US has made every attempt to lead the world toward greater stability and humanity with the last two years of school yard bully foriegn policy, that's your biz. It's also your reponsibility. We all are resonsible for what we do and don't do.

But, Bobert, what about 9/11? Didn't that change everything?

Yes it did. Why do we allready have an investigative chairman appointed for the shuttle loss but not one for 9/11? Hmmmmmm?
Could it be that there's are some bones that just don't need to be dug up?

Well, I end this with saying that I am in total agreement with everything Barry Finn said above. I would ask those of you who are quick on the reaction trigger to go back and read what he has said.

I'd also like for folks who are quick to see war as the *only* answer to reask that question of yourselves but allow some time for prayer and meditation before answering yourselves.

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 11:13 AM

I thought murderers were put in jail, or sould they just be left alone...no sense trying to take care of them.

(Where to begin, where to begin?) If we were to put all of the foriegn governments (people) who commit murder in jail (or kill them), there are a lot of people (governments) we regard as allies who we would have to kill or put in jail (maybe including ourselves). And, if we are going to kill everyone we think might harm us some day, then we will have to become murderers ourselves.

Carol C: your last post illuminates your prejudice against Israel, right?

How so, DougR?

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 11:25 AM

Perhaps the best course of action for the U.S. would be for us to completely withdraw from the situation. Bring our troops back home, and let Germany, France, and those few nations that do not see Saddam as a threat handle the situation.

Would my friends on the Mudcat find that a more acceptable role for the U. S.? I look forward to your replies.

By all means. But if it's going to really work, we'll have to get our greedy mitts (and US tax dollars) out of all of the countries where we are propping up repressive and sometimes even murderous (and sometimes even expansionist) regimes, indluding Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Israel. And we would have to stop using our covert operations to de-stabilize democratically elected governments with whom we don't agree, such as Venezuela.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 11:38 AM

It could be quite a mess, Custer style I take it that refers to the massacres he carried out rather than to the time he got his come-uppance.

I think Bobert's point about waiting for the written text rather than listening to the presentation makes a lot of sense. How it's said is just presentation, another word for which is show business.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: John Hardly
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 12:09 PM

Many of you seem to by implying a breakdown of the entire US government in order to allow a few conspirators to fabricate a case for war.

That is so incredibly improbable. How improbable?

The last president couldn't even put together a conspiracy big enough to cover up sexual misdeeds.

Do you really believe that, with all the manpower it would require to manufacture such a huge (not to mention immoral on a scale that would make even proponents of situational ethics blush) that an administration would really delude itself into believing that they could address the UN and the world with a hoax?

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 12:24 PM

It's what we do John. We're really, really good at it.

The last president couldn't even put together a conspiracy big enough to cover up sexual misdeeds

That wasn't the conspiricy in that particular case. In that case, the conspiricy was the defacto coup d'etat (sp?) that was being foisted upon us with all of those bogus investigations of the president. And I'd say it was pretty successful considering how much of the president's time was tied up in having to deal with the investigations of his sex life rather than on being president (something the Supreme Court assured us wouldn't happen).

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 01:01 PM

Also, the last president didn't owe a stolen election to the military industrial complex that heavily financed both Bush's campaign and the money vast amount of dough that was spent on attorneys to get the recounts stopped in Florida.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: DougR
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 01:44 PM

So? Ebbie and Carol C. vote for removing all our troops from the mid-east and returning them to their home bases in the U. S. Thanks for your comments. I thought perhaps there would be more Mudcatters who joined them in that belief.

Teribus: Of course your assessment of what would be the result is correct in my opinion.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Amos
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 01:56 PM

Doug:

Some of us didn't answer your survey, I would like to point out.

Powell was certainly more persuasive than his Furless Lieder who is, IMNSHO one of the most dangerous men ever to find power dumped in his stupid head. He made a case for deception and evasion. He did not make a case for WMD, especially nuclear. I happen to believe that Saddam Hussein IS practicing evasion and deception. I also believe he has unaccounted-for biochem munitions.

You seem to feel that if both these things are true, then the slaughter of uncounted human lives is a reasonable course of action.

I do not concur with that belief.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 01:56 PM

Well, Dougie, I'll meet you half way. The troops can stay but Bush has to call for an "Emergency Summit" in the Middle East and spend just 10% of his military budget on promoting peace in the region. Yeah, he can us some of those slick ad-men that wrote Powell's speech, a good number of clergy from all the various religions, couselors, group facilitators, and men who have made peace and reconciliation their life guiding forces, like Jimmy Carter, Dick Gregory, Mohammed Ali, Jesse Jackson, Nelson Mandela, etc. Now, here's the rules. No one leaves until the job is done. Got it? And then, just to make sure that everyone lives up to what they agree, the troops can stay as interim peace keepers for as long as it takes.

So go ahead and tell me why it won't work. We allready well know why your way doesn't work. One war just brings on another which brings on another and the beat goes on and mankind in general gets the shaft because the Boss Hogs of the world never met a war not worth fighting.... 'er at least sending the peasant class off to fight...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: TIA
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 01:56 PM

Doug - count me in too. And, let's develop clean, efficent, domestic energy sources so that we can't be held hostage by our own gluttony for oil from parts of the world where the people seem to hate us so (partially because of our gluttony?...ain't it a vicious cycle).

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: DougR
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 02:16 PM

McGrath: I believe had you and Bobert have watched Secretary Powell's report to the Security Council you would have agreed that there were no histronics displayed in his presentation, and no staging, which is what Iraq claims of course. I think it is interesting that you use the Iraqi's claim as a reason for supporting Bobert's reading, rather than watching the report.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 02:17 PM

Teribus: Of course your assessment of what would be the result is correct in my opinion.

We'll never find out who is correct, though, will we DougR?

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 02:19 PM

For those who missed it, here is The Smoking Gun. Links are beneath photo. This website is probably very temporary, so look soon.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 02:38 PM

Yeah, Don, I was not overly impressed with Powell's slide presentation. Ya know, it gets tiresome hearing him use phrases such as "We have knowledge....", "Our source tell us...." "The intellegence we have shows..." while not providing a danged thing to the inpectors who are there, inspite of what T thinks, to look for proof of the existence of these nasty things. The credibility goes down every time I hear these phrases.

An entire year of huff 'n puff and it comes down to a buch of ad-men, psychologist and used car salesmen sitting down and creating a 71 minut *skit* for Powell to perform like a dog jumping thru rings in a circus! I'm embarassed for him and equally embarrassed by this administrations obvious thirst for war, pick a war, any war will do. And if Bush can clear up his daddies perceived incompleted job, then fine. If not, next month anoth boogie man will be paraded before the American people.

Heck, these guys don't care who the boogioe man is as long as they have one center stage and another in the wings...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 03:57 PM

T:

Sorry, make that Tomahawks. Didn't mean to get you all twisted up.

You mean you still insist that you did not mix up the two words 'Iraq' and 'Bagdad' in that sentence?

If you retract, make it a complete retration, Bobert.

And, next time, proofread.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 04:20 PM

A wise man once said, "You don't want to just sit back and 'let George do it,' because you could wake up some morning and find out that Joe did instead, and you might not like it so much!" For example, I heard on this morning's news that North Korea has just remarked that when a nation feels threatened by another nation, the United States does not have an exclusive franchise on pre-emptive attacks.

Also in the news:-- Whether or not to issue another terrorist alert. The following is an except from an article in the Washington Post:--

Many intelligence analysts in the Pentagon and White House believe the surge in activity is cause for serious alarm, especially because the prospect of war with Iraq heightens the risk of attacks by Iraqi agents, al-Qaida operatives or others eager to take advantage of the political climate. Many of these officials favor issuing a general alert to the public sometime in the next week, sources said.

Thanks, George! Great foreign policy you've got there (Duck and cover, folks!)!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 05:32 PM

Sorry, Wolfgang, but with my busy life (2 businesses and a demanding wife) I just get a shot here and there at the pudder so I'm always kind of hit 'n running to go do something. When I do have the time to proofread, becuase of my severe lexdexia, the stuff always looks just fine. Poor excuse, but unfortunately... it's the truth.

But thanks fir standin' up for my sorry butt with the T-Bird.

I owe ya' one... 'er two.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 05:38 PM

Well, there's always one alternative: If you are too busy to proofread, don't post. Just an idea.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 05:41 PM

I don't think that people with learning disabilities like dyslexia should be kept from participating in public debate just because of their disability, do you Wolfgang?

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 07:44 PM

What Carol siad, Wolfer. Now go sit in the corner.

Bad Wolfgang!.... Bad!

Actually I think you would find it interestin to know that folks with dexlexia are generally more intellegent than the general population.

Hey, Iz not sayin' that I more intellegent that other folks. I'm just repeating what I heard on a video I have on lexdexia.

And, not that this has anything to do with this thread but I couldn't read a lick until I was in the 5ht grade.

But, hey, I got two college degrees somehow (Okay, one is in art) but I must not be too much of a dummie to get 'em without any major readin' skills.

Withall that said, I say Bush on TV a few minutes ago doing his huff 'n puff thing but also allowing the UN one "last shot" at getting Iraq to diasarm.

I wonder if this has anything to do with the 4th Infantry 3 weeks away from being in place (with their MiA2 tanks), the 1 Calvary at least two weeks from being in place, the 1st Armored and 1st Mechanized not in place and won't be until late Feb., the 101st Air Assualt (helicopeters) two to three weeks from being ready, the 1st, 4th and 49th Fighter Wing (F-117A stealths) and the 28th Bombardment (B-1B Bombers) ready but with limited stockpiles? Hmmmm? So, Iz not sure at all that Bush is giving the UN Security Council one last chance by design... but by default...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 07:51 PM

The only smoking gun I saw was the one Bush shot himself in the foot while his the other hand was pointing at Hussein saying he did it. Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 08:21 PM

LOL, Barry...

Gotta agree with ya'. The boy ain't oo smart.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Richie
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:31 PM

I see nothing wrong with Bobert's spelling...just some of his colorful statements.

Since Bobert is the President elect at Mudcat perhaps Wolfgang would be so kind as to correct his majesty's spelling errors (and mine while you're at it!).

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:38 PM

Well, Richie, it has been brought to my attention that Wolfie, seein' as English may not be his first language, he may not understand about lexdexia, dexlexia or poor spelling.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:50 PM

I think Wolfgang should proofread his own posts. In his 3:57 post I just couldn't make out what he meant in his third sentence. Because of his misspelling, you know. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:58 PM

Here's Hans Blix's response to Colin Powel's "smoking gun", according to this article in The Guardian UK:

"US Claim Dismissed by Blix"

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: DougR
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 12:01 AM

Ebbie, Bobert and Richie: Wolfgang has been a contributor to Mudcat, I'd venture to say longer than most of you. His posts have never been intentionally insulting to anyone. I would hope you would re-think your last posts. Wolfgang does not agree with my POV, but I have always found him to be fair in his postings.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 12:40 AM

Read it all again, Doug. I don't think we put him down at all. My post, for instance, was meant to point out that even with misspellings and typos, one's meaning is pretty easy to suss out, contrary to Wolfgang's implication.

On the other hand, as I'm sure he himself would agree, Wolfgang's own most recent posts are not playful at all. So perhaps you could address some of your reprimands to him? If you feel that reprimands from one 'catter to another is needed?

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: GUEST,Gareth
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 02:42 AM

Oi ! As a frequenty tpyo misspelar I fink that criticism on a buse of thr Keyboard is out of order,

Misuse of facts and confusing fact with prejudice is critisisable, however I will leave you all with this quotation from George Orwell -

" Just be cause a thing is reported in the "Daily Telegraph" does not mean it's untrue."

NB THe "Daily Telegraph" is a heavey, right wing, british newspaper.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 03:04 AM

Gee, it's nice to see we're all having such a fine time beating the hell out of each other here. If y'all just had some nukes we could really get down now couldn't we? But the frustration and sniping ( even this little bit here) are natural coming from folks who, regardless of belief in the actions, see the actions of Bush as not just probable, but 3 steps past inevitable.

Every Guard and Reserve support unit around here has been called up, Powell says it is now in the "end game," Bush says Iraq's time is up, and....if you want real proof.....the 101st Airborne has been redeployed. Jack Kennedy saw the importance of taking action but saw the equal importance of gaining the backing of the OAS, NATO, and of course the UN, before taking that unilateral action. It was a strong action we took then, but an action tempered continually with an eye toward stopping it as soon as possible, when conditions were met. Bush will not do this, but will only ignore Iraqi concessions, or add new stipulations, whatever is required, to flex American muscle.

It's going to happen folks.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 03:45 AM

Bobert,

After an entire year of "huff and puff" as you call it, here are the results:

1. February 2002 - the UN sitting back quietly ignoring its responsibilities. February 2003 - UN now living up to those responsibilities and actively enforcing resolutions passed with regard to Iraqi disarmament.

2. February 2002 - no weapons inspectors in Iraq and no sign of any intention on the part of the Iraqi Government to allow them back into the country. February 2003 - UNMOVIC and IAEA inspectors in Iraq.

3. February 2002 - The Iraqi Government stonewalling on every move to bring about any solution to its problems with respect to the international community. February 2003 - The Iraqi Government has conceded point after point, that previously it declared were unsurmountable obstacles.

We have discussed your proposal for an "Emergency Summit" for the Middle East and the difficulties involved previously Bobert. On that occasion, when pressed, you said that:

1. You couldn't be bothered reading the posts

2. You couldn't be bothered to investigate the complexities involved.

The Summit Bobert would have to be held in Baghdad Bobert because your pal Saddam has not left the country in the last 26 years (When he took over) - Wonder why???

Since threads on possible war with Iraq started I have always said that the actual mechanics of it are impossible without the active co-operation of on Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. Subsequent to Colin Powell's presentation at the UN, Turkey now seems to be altering it's position dramatically - from no US troops on Turkish soil, to giving the go-ahead for preparations for the bases they will need. Later this month the Turkish Parliament is expected to sanction use of Turkish bases for US personnel involved in any possible attack on Iraq. When this vote goes through - the operation then becomes possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 04:17 AM

Oh I forgot Bobert:

"Ya know, it gets tiresome hearing him use phrases such as "We have knowledge....", "Our source tell us...." "The intellegence we have shows..."

Of course Bobert you never provide so called facts quoting sources like that, you rely on "unidentified officials" - can't really see what the major point of difference is - apart from the fact that you believe one whole-heartedly and utterly discount the other as being all lies and spin.

Don F:

You make two comments in your post above:

"I heard on this morning's news that North Korea has just remarked that when a nation feels threatened by another nation, the United States does not have an exclusive franchise on pre-emptive attacks."

Pure sabre-rattling Don, and aimed at their domestic audience. North Korea knows damn well what would happen if they actually acted on the above statement.

"Also in the news:-- Whether or not to issue another terrorist alert. The following is an except from an article in the Washington Post:--
Many intelligence analysts in the Pentagon and White House believe the surge in activity is cause for serious alarm, especially because the prospect of war with Iraq heightens the risk of attacks by Iraqi agents, al-Qaida operatives or others eager to take advantage of the political climate. Many of these officials favor issuing a general alert to the public sometime in the next week, sources said.
Thanks, George! Great foreign policy you've got there (Duck and cover, folks!)!"

The United States of America was the primary terrorist target long before your current President took up office. Not one thing, not one measure, apart from possibly declaring that overnight the USA was to become a fundamentalist Islamic Republic, would have altered the view points of the terrorist organisations that have pronounced the US as enemy No. 1. Please do not expect rational people to believe that the current situation was entirely the responsibility of your current President or his Administration - That contention is ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:38 AM

Yo, T. Good morning:

I'll get back to you on the specifics becuase it's snowing and I gotta dig my old truck out mand get it over the mountain this morninf and open my business but:

Your assumption that Saddam is my "pal" is just that: an assumtion. And I'm sure that some one has pointed out in your life the the "ass-u-me" part about assume, except in the case there more T than me in your misuse...

Gotta go shovel lots of snow now...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 11:09 AM

Same old stuff - I am of the opinion that Secretary Powell made his case. I do not believe that he could give names of informants as this would result in their deaths, along with their families, were they found out.

This is not the era of the bow and arrow - it is the era of suicide bombers, biological disaster, nuclear weapons in the hands of those sworn to destroy us, and other atrocious weapons we can but imagine. Saddam has a fairly reprehensible history with his people and his enemies. Take a look at what was left of the Iranian troops after he gassed them. Or the Kurds in the North.

America is my country. I believe that we have a duty to ensure our safety. And if the Twin Towers wasn't an attack on us what was it? And did we deserve it? I don't think so. I further believe that anyone who believes America had that cheap shot coming needs some serious psychiatric evaluation work done. No one deserved that.

I don't particularly care for some of the President's policies, and I sometimes wonder just how able a leader he is, but I believe Colin Powell is doing what he believes to be right. He has a lot of integrity in my opinion. And he is making those recomendations based on information we are not allowed to have. And I believe it is for national security.

I don't like war. I have several personal investments in why we should not fight this war. My Daughter is over there, my Brother is on his way, and the unit I work for is sending many of my close friends. I personally stand to lose a lot if this thing goes badly. Probably lose a lot even if it goes well. But my opinion is that some folks need removed. And Saddam is one of them. He's a cur dog running amock with a set of teeth that needs removed.

I'm not a war monger. I don't think anyone here is. We all seek the same goal. Peace. We all just have speculative opinions on how to best achieve that goal. I love the dialogue. It's what we are about, we Americans, we talk things nearly to death before we act. But when we act I would hope that we act in one accord. Our troops need the support for what they may be asked to do.

And as far as folks from other countries name calling my countries leaders - don't. It just shows your ignorance of what they achieved and overcame to become leaders of my country. I don't bad mouth your folks - I'd appreciate it if you didn't do it to mine. We've had this part of the conversation before.

Just my opinion -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 12:02 PM

Gosh, I don't know... Seems Colin came off as a tattling schoolboy replete with fake humility... The connection of Saddam and 9-11 is streched out so thin... hardly worth spending the gas money on mobilisation... Which is no small sum. So, why doesn't Bush get on the UN bandwagon and share the information he has with the UN. If he is so sure of himself, then the UN should not be kept in the dark. The only explanation I can give, is that Bush wants all the credit for Saddam's removal. This is so phoney. The UN is 'irrelevant' only as we make it so... we are making fools out of the UN adherents in order to make ourselves 'seem' righteous. I would much rather see Bush 'cooperate fully' with the UN, than this banal crap we're all being sucked into... ttr