BS: translations from the British

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:57 PM

Jenny - Hinny controversy cleared up here with illustrations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:12 PM

Hmmm. My Websters Collegiate defines wangle, and says it dates back to 1820 in print.
1. To extricate oneself .....
2. To resort to trickery or devious means...to get the desired result.
3. To adjust or manipulate ...for personal....or fraudulent....means.

Blag not yet in Webster's, but I would guess, from posts here, that it soon will be.

wrangle
1. 14th C.- to engage in argument or controversy
2. to herd and care for livestock....

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:29 PM

A general term of endearment, used in parts of the English Midlands (Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire - and possibly Lincolnshire - not sure), is 'duck'; as in "thanks, me duck" (approx. translation: "thank you, my dear"). This always makes me smile! Whatever you do, though, don't call anyone 'duckie'!

In Manchester, where I live, men call women, and women call men, women and children, 'love' (pronounced 'luv'). A few years ago some ladies, who worked in snack bars and cafeterias at Manchester Airport, got into trouble for calling people 'luv'. I (and several thousand Mancunians) was outraged at this! I'm delighted that I live in a city where people call each other 'love'!

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:42 PM

May luv, hon, hinny, sugar, duck and similar terms of endearment and friendliness long endure!

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:42 PM

Hinny, with a long i, is also the thing upon which one sits.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:48 PM

"My lovely" is one I quite like - makes me feel like a bit like a pirate when a barmaid says it.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:49 PM

"Duck" isn't used in the US to my knowledge. When I first called Carol "Duckie" I had to explain.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:51 PM

'Blag' is often used to refer to SPEECH in particular, and especially for getting stuff for free. If you have the gift of the gab, or have a charmed tongue, then you'll be good at blagging.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:16 PM

For info ~~ Northamptonshire, where I lived for some years during WWii, is very much within the "Me duck" zone.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:57 PM

Translations seem to be pretty well covered.
The author is not one I was aware of and didn't know if the book was old or new, so I thought I'd look him up. I found his web site http://www.grahamison.co.uk/The_Author.html. He is apparently ex-Scotland Yard.
One thing I spotted is a glossary of language used in the books by his detective and others in the stories Hardcastle's language.
It may clear up some disputes as to what the author meant as opposed to what dictionaries or current street usage might suggest.

Actually leeneia, your asking about English usage of words puts us on our toes. I enjoyed reading your previous request for a dictionary of Dalziel and Pascoe. In fact, I finally got around to buying one of Reg Hill's novels as a result of the thread (Haven't got as far as reading it yet as am tackling Sookie Stackhouse, but the thought is there).
Are there any other Brit authors I might have missed, who you would recommend from the opposite side of the pond?

Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:26 PM

Who is Snookie Stackhouse?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:31 PM

Snookie Stackhouse is the main character of the HBO vampire soap opera "True Blood."

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:08 PM

A string of novels set in Louisiana - a synthetic substitute for human blood has been invented, so vampires can live openly without draining live people - Sookie Stackhouse.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:11 PM

From the link: "A hinny is a domestic equine hybrid that is the offspring of a male horse and a female donkey (called a jenny)."

Kind of like I said, eh.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:33 PM

"For info ~~ Northamptonshire, where I lived for some years during WWii, is very much within the "Me duck" zone."

I grew up in Peterborough (which was once in Northants for sort of 'postal purposes'). One occasionally heard 'duck' there but (if my memory serves me correct)one was usually addressed as 'mate' - as in: "are y'all roight, mate - didja come on yer boike?"

Such exquisite vernacular poetry!!

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Rumncoke
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 01:31 PM

Blague is a perfectly good word found in the pocket Oxford Dictionary.

The guiser jarl is the chief participant in the uphelliah - you know, there they all dress up as pretend Vikings and process with torches and burn a long ship (and girls aren't allowed to join in).

Anne Croucher

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 01:53 PM

Men! Like when my three brothers built a house in a huge, spreading maple tree.

They were happy to allow me to carry wood up the ladder for their fireplace - but I wasn't allowed inside. Not a wonder that I grew up accepting that girls are a lesser race.

:)

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 02:41 PM

"Are there any other Brit authors I might have missed"

This might be a good topic for a new thread, Geoff, but for now I'd like to mention the two Peters: Peter Lovesey and Peter Dickinson.

They both write detective fiction. let me warn you that they are very artful and do not write books to use to read yourself to sleep. Their works will stick with you.

I have a busy day today. No doubt I ought to be able to think of more good authors, but I can't at present.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 02:46 PM

The British wankel may be related to the American winkle, which means to get something out of a sticky place with delicate maneuvres. (sp)

For example: "Would you please winkle the sewing-machine plug out of the grate in the hot-air register?"

I don't know if winkle is in the dictionary yet, or if it should be spelled winkle or winkel.

The link is that we wankle something with words but we winkle something with a tool.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 03:12 PM

Mommy, iron my shirt. It's all winkled.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Anne Lister
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 04:23 PM

I don't think I'd ever use wangle (not wankle!) to describe moving objects around - it's always used of human interactions as far as I'm aware. And I've used winkle as a verb as well so it's not just US English, and assumed it might have something to do with the edible winkle (the shellfish - mollusc?) which needs a pin to tease the edible bit out of the shell.
Wankle on the other hand sounds as if it should exist as a word but I've never heard it used. Wanker, yes - but let's not digress.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 04:29 PM

Crazy Little Woman - not sure what you are trying to say. no connection between winkle and wankel with any of the alternative spellings used.
Winkle small seawater mollusc or snail. Edible but difficult to remove from its shell. Usual extraction method was to use a pin to "winkle" it out of the shell, hence verb "to winkle" meaning extracting something which is difficult (often information from someone).
Wankel revolutionary petrol engine which gave an alternative to the usual pistons. Animated...
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 09:58 PM

Both the British 'wankle' and the American (I thought) 'winkle' are verbs meaning to extricate something desirable from its environment. One method uses words, the other uses hands or a tool.

I wonder if they both come from some long-forgotten root.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 10:33 PM

'Wankle' in the OED means unsettled, unsteady; not to extricate (not unless it is a usage developed after c. 1990, the latest OED I have).

'wangle" appeared in UK in print in 1888, a printer's term. Soldiers used it in WW1, and in use both sides of the pond since then; meaning to extricate, to finagle (to use a slang term).

'Winkle' in OED; Webster's Collegiate says "chiefly British," first noted 1918.
Americans wouldn't know what a winkle is.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 10:56 PM

According to the OED, 'winkle' is another soldier-sailor word, discussed in Fraser & Gibbons, Soldier & Sailor Words, 1925. It seems to me that, if the winkle was used as a food item, the word would be older than the WW1 date ascribed to it.

'Wankel', the rotary engine developed by the German inventor of that name.
Wankle not in OED Supplement of 1987.
'Wangle' as noted, is English 1820 in print. OED

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 12:36 AM

There was a music-hall song called "I can't get my winkle out" whose chorus went

I can't get my winkle out, isn't it a sin!
The more I try to get it out the further it goes in:
I can't get my winkle out, isn't it a doer!
I can't get it out with an old bent pin, has anybody here got a skewer?

Ambivalent ambiguity surely intentional!?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:49 AM

A Winkle is a teenyweeny shellfish that you prize out with a small pin. 'Winklepickers' (surprised no-one here has mentioned them yet) is an old fashioned term for a very pointy style of shoe popular in the 50's. Winkle is also a euphemism sometimes used by tots and their parents for the obvious as implied by MtheGM's song.. Maybe because it rhymes with 'tinkle'?

Never heard of wankle, though I've heard it lots of times without the 'le'

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:57 AM

On the other hand ~~

'The Wankel engine invented by German engineer Felix Wankel, is a type of internal combustion engine which uses a rotary design to convert pressure into a rotating motion instead of using reciprocating pistons.'
Wikipedia

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 08:51 AM

In parts of Yorkshire, "love" is also used indiscriminately by men to men, as well as men to women and vice versa.

The mountaineer Andy Cave started his working life down the pits. In his autobiography "Learning to Breathe" it comes as a bit of a shock to find hairy-arsed miners addressing one another as "love".

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 09:42 AM

The winkle shellfish referred to is the common periwinkle or Littorina littorea. According to Wiki they are an introduced species in North America, on both the Atlantic and Pacific coasts. Maybe you just don't eat them over there. I don't blame you, they're 'orrible.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 10:23 AM

I had never heard of 'winkle', so I asked my font of all wisdom. She said, "of course, it means to extract something". I responded, "never herd the word before". She said, "of course-you've never read "Mary Poppins. It means pulling little snails out with a pin".

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 10:38 AM

"Americans wouldn't know what a winkle is."

That's nuts, Q. You couldn't possibly know what books or travels every American has experienced.

I, for one, have known about winkles for many years.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Anne Lister
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 12:01 PM

Q - what do you mean - "if the winkle was used as a food item"? It is. Not "if". It is.   You can buy them from stalls in East London (I can point you to at least one) where they are consumed with some degree of relish, although not by me. Too gritty by far for my delicate palate. Whether or not any dictionary has a derivation for it earlier than 1925. And yes, the word is also a euphemism.

And wankle isn't used in British English as a verb, even if it's a type of engine - at least, if it is, I've never heard it. Which doesn't mean, of course, that in some obscure corner of the UK someone isn't using it at this very moment, but I think it's a typo for or misreading of wangle.

I quite like the endearments in this part of south east Wales, where you are likely to be addressed as "flower", "petal" or "blossom" as well as "love".

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: frogprince
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 12:47 PM

I still think my all-time favorite Britism is the line in at least one Sherlock Holmes book; not sure now whether spoken by Holmes or Watson.

      "Sorry to knock you up, old chap".

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the Britishk on for the
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:08 PM

For them as don't know when workers had to get up in the middle of night a bloke with a long pole was employed to go round and knock on their bedroom window in time for them to work the early shift. This bloke was, of course, known as the 'knocker-up'. It may well be that this meaning pre-dates the pregnancy meaning, at least in the UK.

Knock up also refers to something hastily or easily assembled. You can knock up a meal from a few random ingredients, for instance.

These phrasal verbs (a verb with a preposition or two attached) cause great difficulties for people learing English, and also for English speakers from different cultures, like the difference between pissed off and pissed up.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:18 PM

Leeneina, of course there are the odd Americans who read (past tense, out-dated now) English mysteries (Christie and Sayers excepted), and read them (present tense)- I am one- but I was speaking of the great majority (dare I say 90+%?) who have never heard of a winkle. As an amateur malacologist, I have, but would most wonder if it is, perhaps, a small wrinkle?). Then there are crossworders and scrabblers (my wife suffers from this syndrome), peculiar people all.
On travels to jolly old, I have met with plaice (Pleuronectes), like sole a genetically confused and lop-sided thing, but no one introduced me to a winkle.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:59 PM

Les, knock-knocker are truly useful words-
That striker thing on doors (superceded by the electric bell) was called a knocker (door knocker).
A person who knocks on doors looking to sell something, or solicit a donation, is often called a 'knocker'.
In Australia a casual labourer may be called a knockabout.
Casual clothes are sometimes called knockabouts.
Knocker- a person of striking appearance, a 'stunner'.
In mines, a goblin, etc., who is heard knocking on the walls.
At the end of the 19th C., 'up to the knocker' was slang for 'up to the mark'.

There are undoubtedly more. Indeed confusing to a furriner.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 02:31 PM

A usage that has been known to worry US-ers, as well as 'knock up' for to awaken, is to 'lay the table' ~~ which is what we do when we set out the cutlery &c in preparation for a meal ~~ an alternative usage to 'set the table'. I knew an American who imagined that nothing could be laid except a woman.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 03:17 PM

Q - and many more variants.

Les Fromull mentions Knocking Up a meal. A similar but different construct would be Knock Out - which has nothing to do with pugilism, but to produce or manufacture something rapidly and in quantity. A Tin Pan Alley songwriter might knock out a song before lunch and another before bedtime. A potter might knock out a dozen pots an hour.

Door knockers - brass striker and plate, are still used on doors. They certainly have not been superceded by bells.
I wouldn't call a person who knocks on doors "a knocker" - a "bloody nuisance" perhaps. Officially, if trying to sell, they would be a "hawker" and notices on gates do read "No Hawkers", although I don't recall ever having heard the term in oral usage.

"Knockers" is also slang for a female bosom.

As for the winkle. Take some sand from a beach and soak it in sea water. Wrap an elastic band round it and sprinkle with brown malt vinegar. Place in mouth and chew for five minutes. You would have a fairly accurate simulation of the mollusc as a culinary delicacy.

I am with Anne Lister in the opinion that there is no such word as wankle in the "English" language and someone is mistaken in thinking there is.

Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 03:22 PM

There is if you feel like giving it a meaning and using it. That's how English works.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 03:24 PM

I understand confusion between Bronx and Brooklyn accents ~ I can't tell any real difference myself ~ but certainly the Boston accent is clearly different from anything spoken in New York City, and fairly unique.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 03:57 PM

As for American regional accents, we in the UK hear them on American films. We know they are 100% authentic because they are spoken by Hannibal Lecktor (Anthony Hopkins, Brian Cox), the detective in Roger Rabbit (Bob Hoskins), Louisiana vampire Bill Compton (Stephen Moyer) and of course Sean Connery...
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:22 PM

You got it, Geoff.

English actors do an excellent job with accents. Probably because regional accents are closer together geographically, actors develop an ear for them, and can do a good job with any accent they study.

I have told this before, but will repeat it here. In a pub in Scotland, the group at the next table was speaking in a heavy dialect. I needed directions, so I approached them with some trepidation, I wondered if I could understand what they told me. I got my answers in speech that would pass in a BBC newscast.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 06:05 PM

"Officially, if trying to sell, they would be a "hawker" and notices on gates do read "No Hawkers", although I don't recall ever having heard the term in oral usage."

COME A' YE TRAMPS AN' HAWKERS

Come a' ye tramps an' hawkers an' gaitherers o' blaw,
That tramps the country roun' an' roun', come listen ane an' a'
I'll tell tae you a rovin' tale an' sichts that I hae seen
Far up into the snowy north and south by Gretna Green.

I hiv seen the high Ben Nevis away towerin' to the moon,
I've been by Crieff and Callander an' roun' by boonie Doune,
And by the Nethy's silv'ry tides and places ill tae ken
Far up into the snowy north lies Urquhart's bonnie glen.

Aftimes I've lauched into mysel' when I'm trudgin' on the road,
Wi' a bag o' blaw upon my back, my face as broon's a tod,
Wi' lumps o' cakes an' tattie scones an' cheese an' braxy ham
Nae thinkin' whaur I'm comin' fae nor whaur I'm gaun tae gang.

I'm happy in the summer time beneath the bright blue sky
Nae thinkin' in the mornin' at nicht whaur I've tae lie.
Barns or byres or anywhere or oot among the hay
And if the weather does permit I'm happy every day.

O Loch Katrine and Loch Lomond has a' been seen by me
The Dee, the Don, the Deveron that hurries into the sea,
Dunrobin Castle by the way I nearly had forgot
An' aye the rickles o' cairn marks the Hoose o' John o' Groat.

I'm up an' roun' by Gallowa' or doon aboot Stranraer,
Ma business leads me anywhere, sure I travel near an' far,
I've got a rovin' notion, there's nothing what I loss
An' a' my day's my daily fare and what'll pey my doss.

I think I'll go tae Paddy's land, I'm makin' up my mind,
For Scotland's greatly altered now, sure I canna raise the win'
But I will trust in providence, if providence will prove true
An' I will sing of Erin's Isle when I come back to you.





As sung by Jimmy MacBeath on Topic LP 12T173, "Wild Rover No More", and on Collector EP JES10, "Come A' Ye Tramps And Hawkers".

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 06:10 PM

I mean current actual usage. I am well aware of the song. That isn't really what I meant. The people who live on our street wouldn't ACTUALLY refer to door-to-door salesmen / leaflet deliverers as "hawkers".
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 06:24 PM

But they would refer to people hawking their wares.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Tangledwood
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 06:37 PM

no one introduced me to a winkle

They must have been keeping them for their own shellfish pleasure.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Anne Lister
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 07:17 PM

Of course the language thing cuts both ways. I was most intrigued to learn of "scrod" when in the US and after singing "Sloop John B" as a child had to find out what "grits" might be. There are other food items as well not known to those of us on the right hand side of the Atlantic, such as "collard greens", if I have the verbiage correct.   We have visitors at the moment from New England who have informed us they don't like to eat squash or zucchini or eggplant, so I have been much tempted to cook a ratatouille which would of course include courgettes and aubergines and see if they could tell ...but I'm a kind hostess and can cope with linguistic variations, so I won't.
And let's not get involved with biscuits or English muffins or the other baked goods confusions we've touched on in other threads....

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: mousethief
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 02:36 AM

Reminds me of the story of the guy who visits Boston for the first time. He's heard about the famous local dishes so when he gets in the cab at the airport he says to the driver, "Take me where I can get scrod."

The driver says, "You know, I've been asked to do that a thousand times, but never in the past-plu-perfect indicative."

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 04:33 AM

One hundred.

Terry is away at the moment :)