BS: Caliphate

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 12:28 PM

You nailed it, Richard.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 12:54 PM

"So, Keith, now you have heard it twice."

Where?

"Responsible Islam condemns the actions of ISIS"

Mandy Rice-Davies pouring from a chocolate teapot. Anyhow, where?, again.

"Why do you carry on trying to tar all Muslims with the same brush?"

Where? yet again.

"You nailed it, Richard."

Oh?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 01:01 PM

Everyone condemns the actions of ISIS......until the knife is to the throat, or they become more powerful than your faction.....then you join them or die.

The world at present is in the balance, I hope the balance does not fall to the Muslim side.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 01:04 PM

So, Keith, now you have heard it twice. Responsible Islam condemns the actions of ISIS. Why do you carry on trying to tar all Muslims with the same brush?

I do not, and never have.
British Imams unanimously condemned ISIS, as I did not doubt they would.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 01:17 PM

"I hope the balance does not fall to the Muslim side."
.,,.

If it doesn't, it will be no thanks to this gaggle of sleepwalking ostriches...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 01:22 PM

IRBIL, Iraq (AP) — Islamic extremists shot scores of Yazidi men to death in Iraq, lining them up in small groups and opening fire with assault rifles before abducting their wives and children, according to an eyewitness, government officials and people who live in the area.

A Yazidi lawmaker on Saturday cited the mass killing in Kocho as evidence that his people are still at risk after a week of U.S. and Iraqi airstrikes on the militants.

Meanwhile, warplanes targeted insurgents around a large dam that was captured by the Islamic State extremist group earlier this month, nearby residents said.


In a statement, U.S. Central Command said the airstrikes Saturday were launched under the authority to support humanitarian efforts in Iraq, as well as to protect U.S. personnel and facilities.

Central Command says the nine airstrikes conducted so far had destroyed or damaged four armored personnel carriers, seven armed vehicles, two Humvees and an armored vehicle.

The U.S. began airstrikes against the Islamic State extremist group a week ago, in part to prevent the massacre of tens of thousands of Yazidis in northern Iraq. They fled the militants by scrambling up a barren mountain, where they got stranded. Most were eventually able to escape with help from Kurdish fighters.

Islamic State fighters had surrounded the nearby village 12 days ago and demanded that its Yazidi residents convert or die. On Friday afternoon, they moved in.

The militants told people to gather in a school, promising they would be allowed to leave Kocho after their details were recorded, said the eyewitness and the brother of the Kocho mayor, Nayef Jassem, who said he obtained his details from another witness.

The militants separated the men from the women and children under 12 years old. They took men and male teens away in groups of a few dozen each and shot them on the edge of the village, according to a wounded man who escaped by feigning death.

The fighters then walked among the bodies, using pistols to finish off anyone who appeared to still be alive, the 42-year-old man told The Associated Press by phone from an area where he was hiding. He spoke on condition of anonymity, fearing for his safety.

"They thought we were dead, and when they went away, we ran away. We hid in a valley until sundown, and then we fled to the mountains," he said.

A Yazidi lawmaker, a Kurdish security official and an Iraqi official from the nearby city of Sinjar gave similar accounts, saying Islamic State fighters had massacred many Yazidi men Friday after seizing Kocho.

All of them said they based their information on the accounts of survivors. Their accounts matched those of two other Yazidi men, Qassim Hussein and Nayef Jassem, who said they spoke to other survivors.

It was not clear precisely how many men were killed. Iraqi and Kurdish officials said at least 80 men were shot. Yazidi residents said they believed the number was higher, because there were at least 175 families in Kocho, and few were able to escape before the militants surrounded their hamlet.

Jassem said he was in touch with two wounded men, including a cousin, who fled the village. They called Jassem from the phone of a sympathetic shepherd and described what happened. On Saturday morning, Jassem's cousin called again, pleading for help.

"I can't walk, and we will die," Jassem said his cousin told him, his voice breaking. The 55-year-old said he called Yazidi rebels in the mountains, pleading with them to try to save the men. "They need first aid. Send them a donkey they can sit on, something to carry them." But Jassem said his cousin was a six-hour walk from the rebels and would die before help came. By evening, he lost contact with his relative.

The Yazidis are a centuries-old religious minority viewed as apostates by the Islamic State, which has claimed mass killings of its opponents in Syria and Iraq, often posting grisly photos online.

Yazidi lawmaker Mahma Khalil said the Yazidis in Kocho were given the choice to abandon their religion for that of the fighters. When they refused, "the massacre took place," he said.

Halgurd Hekmat, a spokesman for Kurdish security forces, said the militants took the women and children of Kocho to a nearby city.

Elsewhere in northern Iraq, residents living near the Mosul Dam told the AP that the area was being targeted by airstrikes.

The extremist group seized the dam on the Tigris River on Aug. 7. Residents living near the dam, which is Iraq's largest, say the airstrikes killed militants, but that could not immediately be confirmed. The residents spoke on condition of anonymity out of fears for their safety.

Tens of thousands of Yazidis fled earlier this month when the Islamic State group captured the town of Sinjar, near the Syrian border.

The plight of the Yazidis motivated U.S. and Iraqi forces to launch aid drops. It also contributed to the U.S. decision to launch airstrikes against the militants, who were advancing on the Kurdish regional capital Irbil.

But the Islamic State group remains in control of vast swaths of northeastern Syria and northern and western Iraq, and the scale of the humanitarian crisis prompted the U.N. to declare its highest level of emergency earlier this week.

Some 1.5 million people have been displaced by fighting since the Islamic State's rapid advance began in June.

The decision to launch airstrikes marked the first direct U.S. military intervention in Iraq since the last troops withdrew in 2011 and reflected growing international concern about the extremist group.

Khalil, the Yazidi lawmaker, said the U.S. must do more to protect those fleeing the Islamic State fighters.

"We have been calling on the U.S. administration and Iraqi government to intervene and help the innocent people," Khalil said. "But it seems that nobody is listening."

The United States was not alone in its efforts to ease the dangers in the region.

On Saturday, Britain's Ministry of Defense said it deployed a U.S.-made spy plane over northern Iraq to monitor the humanitarian crisis and movements of the militants. The converted Boeing KC-135 tanker, called a Rivet Joint, was to monitor mobile phone calls and other communication.

Germany's Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier was in Baghdad on Saturday, where he announced his government would provide more than 24 million euros ($32.2 million) in humanitarian aid to Iraq.

Also Saturday, two British planes landed in the Kurdish regional capital of Irbil carrying humanitarian supplies.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 07:39 PM

Well, Metro Goldwyn Sheep, your post of 12.54 has absolutely nothing to say. Tell me: why do you bother?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 02:02 AM

It was, if you look, Hen, in response to another post which asserted facts/opinions contained notionally in previous posts which didn't immediately appear locatable, so I was asking for some more precise refs. It wasn't ∴ trying to 'say' anything, in the sense of making a statement, but was interrogative. So what is your po·faced denunciation of it supposed to be 'saying'?

You needn't 'bother' to respond as I don't give a flying one for your piddling reactions in this instance.

But Best Regards in a general way as usual, of course

~The~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 08:01 AM

Riyadh (AFP) - Saudi Grand Mufti on Tuesday blasted Al-Qaeda and Islamic State jihadists as "enemy number one" of Islam, in a statement issued in Riyadh.

"The ideas of extremism, radicalism and terrorism ... have nothing to do with Islam and (their proponents) are the enemy number one of Islam," the kingdom's top cleric said.

He cited jihadists from the Islamic State, which has declared a "caliphate" straddling parts of Iraq and Syria, and the global Al-Qaeda terror network.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 08:16 AM

15 Shocking Numbers That Will Make You Pay Attention To What ISIS Is Doing In Iraq
The Huffington Post         | By Nick Wing & Carina Kolodny
Email
Posted: 08/11/2014 10:57 am EDT Updated: 08/11/2014 1:59 pm EDT Print Article

Over the past few months, the Islamic State, an al-Qaeda offshoot formerly known as ISIS, has mounted a brutal campaign in Syria and Iraq that has allowed it to expand its ranks and win large swaths of new territory. With the stated goal of establishing a Sunni caliphate -- or an Islamic state governed by a religious figurehead -- the insurgent group's fighting has taken a heavy toll on Iraq's Shiite Muslim majority, as well as a number of minority groups, including Kurds and Christians.

While reports of the Islamic State carrying out mass executions, placing heads on fence posts and imposing harsh religious restrictions have sparked concern across the world, they haven't elicited military involvement until now. Over the weekend, U.S. warplanes began bombing Islamist fighters following an announcement by President Barack Obama that he had authorized airstrikes to prevent "genocide."

In light of the recent news, here's an update on the militant group by the numbers:
13,000
The number of square miles thought to be under Islamic State control, a stretch between Syria and Iraq that is roughly the size of Belgium. Other estimates suggest the Islamic State controls an area closer to 35,000 square miles, or roughly the size of Jordan.

1,922
The number of people killed in Iraq in June, according to government figures, making it the deadliest month since May 2007. Official figures report 1,393 civilians, 380 soldiers and 149 policemen among the dead. Another 2,610 people were wounded, the majority of them civilians.

30,000 - 50,000
The number of militants now fighting with the Islamic State, according to a recent estimate by Dr. Hisham al-Hashimi, an expert on the group. Many former Iraqi Army soldiers have been forced to join and others have been recruited from around the region and beyond.

5
The number of nations with which the Islamic State has engaged in direct fighting. In an effort to expand its holdings, insurgents have attacked soldiers from Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Syria and Turkey this summer alone. The group is currently pursuing a large offensive against the Syrian Arab Army in the northeast of the country, snatching up large quantities of munitions from military bases.

$2,000,000,000
The approximate value of the Islamic State's cash and assets, according to estimates from terrorism experts. In the midst of its most substantial campaign in June, Islamic State fighters captured the city of Mosul, looting hundreds of million of dollars from banks and acquiring hundreds more in military assets from the Iraqi Army.

$3,000,000
The estimated daily revenue of the Islamic State, from its oil and gas resources alone. Fighters with the group have taken control of oil and gas fields across northern Iraq and Syria, and it "now controls a volume of resources and territory unmatched in the history of extremist organizations," according to Janine Davidson of the Council of Foreign Relations.

3
The number of high-profile jailbreaks carried out by Islamic State forces in the past several months, which led to the freeing of at least 1,500 insurgents, likely including leaders, bomb makers and other militants, according to reports. In an apparent response to these incidents and widespread brutality by Islamic State fighters, Human Rights Watch accused Shiite militia members and other Iraqi Army soldiers last month of having illegally executed at least 255 Sunni prisoners in at least five different massacres.

0
The number of openly practicing Christians thought to be left in the city of Mosul, where the Islamic State has made Christianity punishable by death. While it's impossible to know if Islamic State militants have actually chased every Christian out of the city, recent reports suggest that all remaining Christians had fled Mosul.

Up to 40,000
The number of civilians initially estimated to have been trapped on Mount Sinjar last week after the Islamic State captured the town of Sinjar, near the Kurdish region in northern Iraq, and drove people out of the surrounding areas. While at least 20,000 were reportedly rescued over the weekend by Kurdish rebels from neighboring Syria, the remaining Yazidis are still trapped.

At least 500
The number of Yazidis killed so far by Islamic State fighters in northern Iraq. An Iraqi government minister told Reuters on Sunday that militants had buried some of the Yazidis alive, while they killed others in a mass execution.

At least 300
The number of Yazidi women taken as slaves by the Islamic State, according to human rights minister Mohammed Shia al-Sudani. Sudani said there are still concerns that many of the victims will be moved outside of the country, which would make it harder to rescue them. Recent reports also suggest that at least two women were publicly stoned to death by the Islamic State, one of whom faced the punishment for adultery.

500,000
According to a 2011 report in Water Power magazine, this is the number of civilians who could die if the Mosul Dam, the largest dam in Iraq, stops working. Late last week, the Islamic State reportedly seized the dam, which lies on the Tigris River and provides power and water to Mosul and other parts of the region. It requires extensive engineering work to remain operational. It remains unclear what the Islamic State intends to do with it, but simply neglecting the required upkeep would potentially lead to large-scale structural failure.

65
The amount of water (in feet) that would roar toward the city of Mosul if the Islamic State decided to destroy the Mosul Dam, or if were to suffer a catastrophic collapse for any other reason, according to a 2007 letter from U.S. generals stressing the need to secure the dam.

1,500,000
The estimated population of Erbil, the capital of Iraqi Kurdistan. This number includes an unknown number of foreign workers, some of whom are American military personnel who were dispatched earlier this summer to aid Kurdish Peshmerga fighters in their resistance efforts against the Islamic State. On Saturday, American warplanes began launching airstrikes to help Kurdish forces fighting to defend Erbil.

2
The number of towns reclaimed by Kurdish forces on Sunday following U.S. airstrikes to protect the area from Islamic State militants.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 10:38 AM

Lebanon's Hezbollah kills top jihadist in Syria: NGO
AFP
4 hours ago

Beirut (AFP) - Fighters from Lebanon's Hezbollah have killed a top jihadist from the Islamic State group in Syria who allegedly planned bloody attacks in Lebanon, a monitoring group said on Tuesday.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said Hezbollah fighters had killed Abu Abdullah al-Iraqi in the Qalamun region in Syria, near the border with Lebanon.

He "was one of the officials in the Islamic State in charge of preparing suicide attacks", the group said.

"He was killed by a roadside bomb planted by Hezbollah that detonated as his vehicle passed by," the NGO added, saying three other jihadists were also killed in the blast.

Hezbollah's Al-Manar television station meanwhile reported Iraqi's death, but said he had been killed by the Syrian army.

"The Islamic State official Abu Abdullah al-Iraqi has been killed in a Syrian army operation in Qalamun," al-Manar said.

"He was in charge of preparing suicide bombers and the cars used in bomb attacks including those carried out in Lebanon," the station said, broadcasting a photo said to be of Iraqi's bloodied head.

Lebanon's Shiite Hezbollah movement is a close ally of the Syrian regime and has been fighting alongside government troops against an uprising there for more than a year.

Its involvement has helped the army to recapture key territory, but drawn the ire of many in Lebanon, where Hezbollah strongholds have been targeted multiple times by suicide and car bomb attacks.

The attacks have been claimed by jihadist groups who threatened to continue so long as Hezbollah remains in Syria.

In mid-April, the army and Hezbollah took control of most of the Qalamun region, but pockets of opposition fighters, including jihadists, remain in the mountainous border area there between Syria and Lebanon.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 03:39 PM

The Islamic State is vowing retribution should U.S. airstrikes hit their militants.

According to Reuters, a newly released video by the Islamic State shows a picture of an American man who had been beheaded in Iraq during the initial U.S. invasion with a caption that translated into English reads, "we will drown all of you in blood."

The Islamic State has focused on its goal of establishing a caliphate by seizing land in Iraq in Syria before launching any potential attacks on the West. Osama Bin Laden famously warned of the risks of establishing a caliphate too early, writing in a document seized in the raid on his compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan that an Islamic State could have the adverse affect of dividing the Sunni population.

While Sunnis alienated by the Shia government of Nouri al-Maliki have actually helped the Islamic State's swift march through the northern part of the country, many suggest that defeating the Islamic State will only come with Sunni support.

In the meantime U.S. airstrikes have helped Kurdish and Iraqi Army forces take back some territory in the northern part of the country that had been seized by ISIL. On Monday, the Iraqis regained control of the strategically important Mosul Dam, which has previously been referred to as "the most dangerous dam in the world."

Part of the U.S. offensive in Iraq involves targeting millions of dollars of its own equipment given to the Iraqi Army during the U.S. occupation and later seized by Islamic State militants after they seized two Iraqi military bases this summer. According to Reuters, some of the hardware the U.S. is attempting to destroy includes M1 Abrams tanks (about $6 million per), Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected Vehicles (about $1 million per), and 53 M198 Howitzer cannons ($527,337 per).

Reuters estimates that the U.S. spends somewhere between $84,000 and $104,000 to destroy between $1 and $12 million of its own military hardware per airstrike.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 04:25 PM

So now we know that ISIS are arseholes, and that several responsible Islamic sources condemn them. ISIS do not typify Islam. We all condemn them.


Is there any more to be said or do Keith and fellow travellers (oh, sorry, you don't like them either do you?) STILL want to try to tar all Muslims with the same brush?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 04:40 PM

It's called unprincipled opportunism, Richard. And it's utterly unfair to the billion-plus Muslims in this world who want nothing more than peace and security.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 04:46 PM

Of course it would be Steve.

So, Keith, now you have heard it twice. Responsible Islam condemns the actions of ISIS. Why do you carry on trying to tar all Muslims with the same brush?

I do not, and never have.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 05:00 PM

Which is why you constantly try to deflect us to "stuff that Muslims do over the border that's much worse than anything Israel does". Come off it, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 08:08 PM

Hey, FKWTS is FKWTS, Steve. He can't help himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 08:29 PM

So true, Greg.

Good interview on Newsnight tonight, Kirsty meets Daniel Barenboim. Daniel has ruffled many a feather in Israel over the years (I never agreed with him over his insistence on playing the music of that ultimate antisemite, Wagner, in Israel), but he has more than legitimised his stance by dint of his founding, with Edward Said, of the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, composed of young musicians from Palestine and Israel and beyond.

Quoth Daniel: The Divan is not a love story, and it is not a peace story. It has very flatteringly been described as a project for peace. It isn't. It's not going to bring peace, whether you play well or not so well. The Divan was conceived as a project against ignorance. A project against the fact that it is absolutely essential for people to get to know the other, to understand what the other thinks and feels, without necessarily agreeing with it. I'm not trying to convert the Arab members of the Divan to the Israeli point of view, and [I'm] not trying to convince the Israelis to the Arab point of view. But I want to – and unfortunately I am alone in this now that Edward died a few years ago – ...create a platform where the two sides can disagree and not resort to knives.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 03:24 AM

you all seem to intentionally miss the point, "responsible Islam" can very quickly change to "radical Islamism", given the right conditions.

How do you think the ISIL faction made such swift and rapid advances?
Anyone who follows a religion which is so intolerant of other religions, is an easy convert to radicalism, or at least tacit acceptance of radicalism.

When they are further encouraged by the knife at the throat, there is no further argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 04:19 AM

Which is why you constantly try to deflect us to "stuff that Muslims do over the border that's much worse than anything Israel does". Come off it, Keith

I do not do that.
I just contrast the outrage and ask why the difference, when the carnage is so much worse on the other side of Israel.

Gaza is a big issue and I contribute to the discussion, while you people even subvert other discussion to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 08:59 AM

"responsible Islam" can very quickly change to "radical Islamism", given the right conditions.

Yup- just like "responsible Christianiity".

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 09:12 AM

Isis- "one of thousands of Islamic militant groups" (NYTimes) beheads another. But by all means lets keep pretending all religions are alike

    — Bill Maher (@billmaher) August 20, 2014

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 09:51 AM

Greg, I don't think you deserve many of the responses you get, but it is just not reasonable to equate the actions of fundamentalist Christians, with the actions of radical Islamists.
Please stop insulting people and start using you brain in a positive manner.

The Islamists believe that all who oppose them, or blaspheme against them should be put to death.
No Christian could hold such beliefs and remain a Christian.

Without doubt we are facing a great danger, and one which we will ultimately lose through weakness. Our society is corrupt and debauched, we have lost our values and sense of direction.....we have no example to show the madmen.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 10:19 AM

Your first clause is the point, Ake. "Deserve" is the word; as in the incomparable Jane Austen's formulation, "she did not think he deserved the compliment of rational opposition."

He is short on real argument, but long on mere assertion. A troll who should not be fed, IMO. Why not just leave him to chunter away to his stupid self?

Thus another germane quotation to adduce: Beatrice to Benedick in first scene of Much Ado About Nothing: "I wonder you would still be talking, Signor Benedick. Nobody marks you."

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:02 AM

No Christian could hold such beliefs and remain a Christian.

Sorry Ake, but there's plenty of folks that CALL themselves "Christians" and DO hold such beliefs.

Just as there are plenty of folks who CALL THEMSELVES Muslims & do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:28 AM

So, we see Akenaton and Michael both saying that Muslims are all potential terrorists now. Michael not able to tell the difference between a newsagent in The UK and a member of The Taliban in Afghanistan, and Akenaton saying responsible Islam can turn to radical Islam or some such nonsense, whilst ignoring the Christians who kill for their superstition.

Fucking disgusting

His rambling nonsense on Christians is as funny to read as it must have been embarrassing to type. Hey Worm! You might wish to become a Muslim yourself! Like Christians, they are taught to hate gay dudes! But like anybody who is culturally religious, the vast majority live and let live.

By the way, you have already lost. I'll chuck the first stone at you when I come up to Inveraray in a couple of weeks time.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:54 AM

A troll who should not be fed, IMO.

Then why dost thou continue to do so, Leon?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 01:47 PM

to be rather more succinct M, Greg can be a right pain in the balls at times, but he has been here a long time and CAN make valid points when he wants to.

He has strong views and says it like he sees it, but he is not a phoney smart arse like our mutual friend.

Greg and Ian might seem similar in M.O., but they inhabit completely different universes.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 02:20 PM

Socialist French President Francois Hollande said Wednesday he would arrange a conference next month on the threat posed by Takfiri extremists in Iraq, describing the current international situation as "the most serious since 2001".

"I think we are in the most serious international situation since 2001..."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 02:26 PM

"No Christian could hold such beliefs and remain a Christian."
This was an essential part of Christianity for many centuries - not just Christian versus non Christian, but Christians who kicked with the wrong foot.
Not so long ago a leading churchman being questioned on the Inquisition not only justified the deaths that had occurred over the centuries of its existence, but he said that, should it be necessary, he could see no reason why it should not happen again.
The killing of non-believers is an essential part of many religions including Christianity.
The only thing that has changed if the opportunity to carry out such a doctrine.
Prior to the start of World War One, 'Gallant little (Christian) Belgium didn't blink an eye when its government and commerce slaughtered 10 million 'heathen blacks' (Congolese) in pursuit of rubber.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 02:43 PM

"Prior to the start of World War One, 'Gallant little (Christian) Belgium didn't blink an eye when its government and commerce slaughtered 10 million 'heathen blacks' (Congolese) in pursuit of rubber."

Come on Jim, you cannot blame the results of greed and avarice on "Christian faith"

Of course there have been horrific things done in pursuit of booty,
Capitalism and colonialism have much to answer for.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 03:48 PM

"Come on Jim, you cannot blame the results of greed and avarice on "Christian faith""
I don't - I blame it on the Christian -and any other church.
The Empires were built on "civilising and Christianising" the world
"God" - whichever god, has been used as a conquering symbol down the ages.
The World War one bloodbath was fought for "God, King and Country" - i that order.
Wars are still fought "with God on our side" - didn't somebody write a song about it?
The written doctrines of Christianity are filled with stoning as a punishment for for sinful women - look up 'The Bad Bible' sometime.
Our moving away from the more primitive side of our religions has been a matter of the church having no choice.
When Belgium carried out its atrocities, it did so in the name of King Leopold (appointed by God" and with the full knowledge and blessing of the Church.
In the 1930s, Mussolini's bombers slaughtered the Abyssinian people with bombs blessed by the Pope.
Give us a break Ake - you claim to be a Marxist
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 07:30 PM

The Guardian reported Wednesday that, according to a former hostage, the British national who acted as executioner in the Foley murder video was one of three U.K. citizens known among jihadists as the "Beatles," who are in charge of holding foreign hostages in the Syrian city of Raqqa.

Shiraz Maher, a senior research fellow at the Center for the Study of Radicalization at King's College London, said he estimates that between 500 and 600 British citizens have gone to fight the Jihad in Syria, with the vast majority of these volunteers joining ISIS. He said that in his field research on the Turkish/Syrian border, rebel fighters have said the British foreign fighters are often the most extreme.

The UK Jihadists who Murdered Foley

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 08:34 PM

Do you have a point?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 05:24 AM

True Jim, the "state" has always sought to USE religion to further its aims, but that reflects badly on a secular establishment, perhaps more so than on a hypocritical "organised religion"?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 06:28 AM

No news of anyone organising protest demonstrations against the perpetrators of these horrific massacres on a scale not seen since the days of Pohl Pot.

The scale dwarfs anything seen involving Israel.
Plenty of demonstrations against Israel though.
What is the difference?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 07:19 AM

" perhaps more so than on a hypocritical "organised religion"?"
Certainly not
Organised religion has never made any bones about putting itself at the disposal of the establishment, particularly that of the far-right Franco - Mussolini- Pinochet.... any tinpot South American dictator you could care to name did what they did with 'God's blessing', and the scriptures were often used to justify their actions "doing God's work'.
Those churchmen unwise enough to stick their head above the parapet were soon given short shrift - the French worker-priest, Romero.... gone in a flash
The genuine faithful were not given the choice
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 08:30 AM

This was posted to Facebook by my friend Tarek Fatah:

"In the gruesome murder of American journalist Foley, it troubles me when I hear Muslims say, "beheading has nothing to do with Islam" and then people like president Obama validate that lie.

How can Muslims deny that Prophet Muhammad himself ordered the beheading of a poet in Mecca who mocked Allah in his poetry? That makes the beheading punishment a Sunnah .

Do we deny that later Muslims would behead the Prophet's dearest grandson and then parade the head through the streets of Damascus ?

Why do we pretend we don't know that centuries later in Baghdad, the agnostic Mansoor Hallaj was beheaded publicly?

Do Muslim leaders not know about Timurlane building pyramids of skulls as Sharia experts cheered him on?

We need to stop lying."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 02:48 PM

Yeah, yeah, what about the Spanish Inquisition yadda yadda yadda. Fuck it. We've seen enough of this shit. The Yanks must know where these scumbags hide. A few nukes would probably work wonders in the long run.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 03:31 PM

Guest, Chris B:
"Yeah, yeah, what about the Spanish Inquisition yadda yadda yadda. Fuck it. We've seen enough of this shit. The Yanks must know where these scumbags hide. A few nukes would probably work wonders in the long run. "

People would talk...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 04:13 PM

The president of the world's most populous Muslim-majority country, Indonesia, on Thursday called the actions of Islamic State militants "embarrassing" to the religion and urged Islamic leaders to unite in tackling extremism.

Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono said the scale of the slaughter wrought by the extremists in overrunning large swathes of Iraq and Syria and the level of violence being used was appalling.

"It is shocking. It is becoming out of control," he said in an interview with The Australian, a day after IS released a video showing a masked militant beheading US reporter James Foley, provoking worldwide revulsion.

"We do not tolerate it, we forbid ISIS in Indonesia," he added, referring to the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, as IS was formerly known.

"Indonesia is not an Islamic state. We respect all religions."

He urged international leaders to work together to combat radicalisation.

"This is a new wake-up call to international leaders all over the world, including Islamic leaders," he said, adding that the actions of IS were not only "embarrassing" to Islam but "humiliating", the newspaper reported.

"All leaders must review how to combat extremism. Changing paradigms on both sides are needed -- how the West perceives Islam and how Islam perceives the West."

Indonesia is home to the world's biggest Muslim population of about 225 million and has long struggled with terrorism. But a successful clampdown in recent years has seen the end of major deadly attacks.

Jakarta has estimated that dozens of Indonesians have travelled to Syria and Iraq to fight and Yudhoyono said he was concerned about their return, adding that he had tasked agencies to oppose the spread of extremist ideology in the sprawling nation.

"Our citizens here in Indonesia are picking up recruitment messages from ISIS containing extremist ideas," said the president, whose decade in office comes to an end in October.

"The philosophy of ISIS stands against the fundamental values we embrace in Indonesia. Last Friday, in my state of the union address to the nation, I called on all Indonesians to reject ISIS and to stop the spread of its radical ideology.

"My government and security agencies have taken decisive steps to curtail the spread of ISIS in Indonesia, including by prohibiting Indonesians to join ISIS or to fight for ISIS, and also by blocking Internet sites that promote this idea."

- 'Pure evil' -

Indonesia's neighbour Australia has also seen up to 150 of its nationals join the militants, with the photo of an Australian boy holding a severed head in Syria last week sparking global condemnation.

Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott on Thursday said IS was "as close to pure evil as we're ever likely to find" and what happened to Foley was "sickening".

He also voiced concern that jailed Indonesian militant cleric Abu Bakar Bashir -- the chief ideologue of regional terror network Jemaah Islamiyah -- had pledged allegiance to IS.

JI is blamed for the Bali bombings in 2002, which claimed 88 Australian lives, although a successful crackdown over the past decade has weakened such groups.

"That does indicate the potential for increased terrorist activity in our region," Abbott told reporters when asked about Bashir's pledge.

Bashir, a vocal supporter of Al-Qaeda style jihad, has been in and out of prison for years and is currently serving a 15-year term for funding terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 04:43 PM

"The Norwegian news portal VG Nett is reporting that a Muslim terrorist group, Ansar al-Sunna', is threatening that if a section of the nation's capitol isn't transformed into a sharia-complaint Muslim nation, an attack rivaling 9/11 will be launched upon the Scandinavian nation.

"We do not wish to live together with dirty beasts like you."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 05:36 PM

This was posted to Facebook by my friend Tarek Fatah:

Farcebook, Boo - then its gotta be true.

Just like Bearded Bullshot's anonymous bullshit of 21 Aug 14 - 04:13 PM - gotta be true too.

Not.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 07:03 PM

If bobad and beardie-boy have opinions at all, the poor souls are way too inarticulate to express them coherently (though beardie-boy does love his CAPITALS when he's trying to TELL you a FACT!), which is why they generally choose to post either Zionist links, without accompanying comment, or big tracts of unattributed copy and paste. There are some discussion forums that would throw them out for that type of brainless behaviour. We're quite nice to them here, aren't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Jebidiah LaCount
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 08:07 PM

Then methought,
the air grew denser,
perfumed by a Mudcat censor,
whose footfalls tinkled
on the cutting room floor.

This is my final post on the Mudcat forum, as I will take my genius where it is understood and appreciated, and not simply rabidly coveted. But before I bid the site adieu, I must impart to the humorless censor a final farewell of sorts, in the form of a hearty, "Bonk you!".

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 10:30 PM

We wish.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 03:08 AM

"What is the difference?"
The only difference is that the Israeli terrorists are being allowed a free hand to continue their terrorism and slaughter with the support of the U.S. and its British poodle, while on the other hand, there is little official support anywhere for Isis (except for that of the odd trading partner of Britain, such as Turkey, Qatar and Saudi Arabia (all British arms customers), who actually help arm Isis, so indirectly, we are part of that terror trail.
How about organising a demonstration, or even putting your head above the parapet and saying no to Britain's involvement in indirect arms sales to fanatical terrorism - no - didn't think so really !!
It is gratifying to see you are at last coming around to recognising the fact that there is very little difference between the two though -
"One step at a time, sweet Jesus", as the song says.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 05:18 AM

There clearly IS a difference.
Israel is condemned, boycotted and demonstrated against and massively posted against here, while the terror and horror that US now also says is a greater threat to us all than anything else in the world today gets not a murmur.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 06:46 AM

IS aren't getting a murmur?

Your journey to the dark delusion is complete young Slywalker.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 06:52 AM

"There clearly IS a difference."
Your concern for the victims of Isis doesn't quite extend to demanding that Britain stops selling weapons to those states who are arming Isis?
Now why am I not surprised?
Jim Carroll