BS: Caliphate

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 06:56 AM

In comparison Musket.
There have been countless anti-Israel demos., but not one anti-IS.

Why are so many outraged by Israel but not outraged by the real evil?
Why have YOU posted so many condemnations of Israel?
Have YOU posted anything at all criticising IS?
Why the difference?

Jim says it is because Israel has the support of EU, Canada, and US.
So not really because of what they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 07:07 AM

Some countries supported ISIS against Assad, I imagine with your approval Jim.
That has stopped now and Isis captures more arms than it needs.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 09:03 AM

Continue bombing ISIS where potentially efficacious, as heavily and for as long as needed. This week's bombing forced them to give up the dam they'd seized at Mosul, an act that left ISIS looking, for the first time in its history, reduced and stoppable. Go to Congress for authorization of force, showing the world we have gained at least some semblance of unity. Give the Kurds, our actual friends, every kind of help they need, from military to material. Use the threat of ISIS to forge new bonds with allies and possible allies, such as the leaders of nearby countries that are immediately threatened. Go to the U.N., pound the table, ask for the world's help. Let them humiliate themselves by doing nothing if that's what they choose. At least it will be clarifying.

And be prepared, to the degree possible, for a hit or hits on American soil or that of our longstanding allies. ISIS says it's coming. So far they've done pretty much everything they said they'd do.

Wall Street Journal

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 09:04 AM

Human cost of conflict in Syria/Iraq.
2.9m
Refugees have fled abroad to escape the fighting in Syria
1.2m
Iraqis have been internally displaced
10.8m Syrians in need of humanitarian aid
1m Iraqis living in refugee camps or receiving emergency supplies
2,410 tonnes Tents and equipment being sent to Iraq in massive UN aid operation
Source: OCHA

BBC.
"the war in Syria continues to rage and has spilled over into neighbouring states. The death toll is now approaching 200,000, according to activists.

The hope of salvation has now vanished for many Syrians.

Majed, an advocate of civil disobedience and opponent of armed rebellion, has left Syria.

"The world has failed the Syrian people," he says.

"After the chemical attack I saw many men around me turn to extremism. The disappointment caused by the West's inaction created a fertile recruiting ground for extremist groups, who told those who had lost their loved ones that they were their only hope."

"People want a way out of the violence Assad is inflicting on them."

Many other Syrians feel the same.

"No-one cares about us," is a complaint you often hear, as is: "They even stopped calculating the number of dead or refugees amongst us."
"The readiness of the US to launch air strikes against Islamic State fighters in neighbouring Iraq to protect members of the Yazidi religious minority has caused further disappointment to those who once took to the streets calling for freedom and are now left suffering atrocities carried out by both Assad's forces and IS."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 11:10 AM

"Jim says it is because Israel has the support of EU, Canada, and US. So not really because of what they do."
What the **** are you talking about?
STILL NOT A WORD OF CRITICISM ON THE FACT THAT BRITAIN IS SELLING ARMS TO SAUDI ARABIA, TURKEY AND QATAR, ALL OF WHOM ARE SUPPLYING ARMS TO ISIS
America has just proposed joining forces with Assad to fight Isis, so instead of supporting the Arab Spring protests before Isis filled the gap they left, they will be fighting on the side of a mass-murderer in order to prevent another bunch of mass murderers from taking over.
If there is any serious opposition, Isis will quite likely be killing American troops with weapons that have been sold by Britain and America via Qatar, Turkey and Saudi Arabia, all major arms customers of Britain and America.
All very confusing - Jonathan Swift and Lewis Carroll could not have dreamed it up after a week on the batter!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 12:40 PM

STILL NOT A WORD OF CRITICISM ON THE FACT THAT BRITAIN IS SELLING ARMS TO SAUDI ARABIA, TURKEY AND QATAR, ALL OF WHOM ARE SUPPLYING ARMS TO ISIS.

No they are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 12:59 PM

Er... I know this sounds obvious, but I'll say it anyway.

Yes they are.

Saudi Arabia buys arms from us and is the sponsor and indeed origin of Wahabism, the literal interpretation of The Q'ran and supports those who profess it. IS being a prime example.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 01:17 PM

Guardian headline Monday,"Saudi Arabia does not support Islamic State terrorists – or any others"

"Let me make it perfectly clear. The government of Saudi Arabia does not support or fund the murderers who have collected under the banner of the Islamic State. Their ideology is not one that we recognise, or that would be recognised by the vast majority of Muslims around the world – whether they were Sunni or Shia.

Under the leadership of the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques, King Abdullah, we launched an initiative for dialogue between all religions and cultures in 2008 with the establishment of the King Abdullah Bin Abdulaziz International Centre for Interreligious and Intercultural Dialogue in Vienna.

Following an international counterterrorism conference held in Riyadh in 2005, the UN counterterrorism centre was established with financial support of $200m from our government.

We have been and are fighting extremism within our own borders daily, indeed hourly"
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/17/saudi-arabia-not-support-islamic-state-terrorists

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 01:24 PM

The Independent,
"Fear of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isis, who now refer to themselves the Islamic State) is the new uniting factor for states in the Middle East and beyond who normally hate each other. The sudden emergence of Isis's still expanding caliphate, with its terrifying blend of brutality, bigotry and military effectiveness, provides a common enemy for the US, Iran, EU states, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and, in Iraq, Shia, Kurds and anti-Isis Sunni."
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/fear-brings-the-enemies-of-isis-together-at-last-9673644.html

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 01:51 PM

"No they are not."
Oh yess they are

ISIS FUNDING

WHAT????
"Last year alone, the government approved the export of £1.6bn of arms to Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is vital to BAE, which this year signed a deal a deal worth well over £4bn for 72 Eurofighter Typhoon jets. The company is hoping for a further £1bn-plus contract from the Saudis to upgrade the Typhoons."

KUWAIT

http://www.caat.org.uk/resources/countries/turkey/uk-arms-sales.php

Saudi helped Isis to take over Northern Iraq

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 02:18 PM

They are NOT selling arms to ISIS.

See my links Jim.
Your "ISIS funding" link, (except for the headline!) is all past tense.
"But in the years they were getting started,..."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 02:58 PM

Saudi Arabia has supported Isis - if it has dried up recently they have still supplied arms to Isis from those bought from the U.S. and Britain.
The reason given by Saudi Arabia for no longer supporting Isis is not because they no longer oppose their aims but "they believe Isis will target them next"
If that threat to their sovereignty lessens they will return support their aims and Britain will continue to sell them arms..   
The situation has not changed in any way with Turkey, Qatar and Kuwait - all supporting Isis - all arms customers of Britain and the U.S.
We are back to your supporting arms sales to terrorist states - leopards - spots and all that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 03:07 PM

Saudi Arabia are a rogue terrorist state. They support terrorism wherever it fits with Wahabi principles.

Sadly, we are too far in bed with them to be able to resist sucking their dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 05:22 PM

"SAUDI ARABIA, TURKEY AND QATAR, ALL OF WHOM ARE SUPPLYING ARMS TO ISIS"

No they are not.
Maybe they did early on when it was just another rebel group against Assad, but not since their real nature was revealed

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 05:26 PM

Musket.
Saudi Arabia are a rogue terrorist state. They support terrorism wherever it fits with Wahabi principles.

They do not support IS, so which do they support?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 02:34 AM

Personally I like the bit where he put "no they do not" followed by "well, maybe just a bit. In the early days etc,"

You aren't making a speech Keith. Once you type, it isn't out. You can go back and remove the contradictions before posting.

Snag is, without contradicting yourself, your posts wouldn't have any merit for reading them.

Back to reality on the level grown ups may be interested. I notice Assad is trying to get back in the good books of Western leaders by turning on the IS on his turf. Interesting dilemma all round?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 03:21 AM

"No they are not"
Yes they do - they have supplied arms to Isis in the recent past - those arms would possibly have come from Britain.
If they are no longer actually supplying arms it is, as Saudi Arabia has said, because of the fear that Isis will move in on them - they remain supporters of Isis.
Kuwait, Qatar and Turkey all purchase arms from Britain and have supplied or assisted in arming Isis - why are you ignoring these?
Britain's and America's arms policy is totally undiscriminating - they sell to whoever will buy, Britain's trade minister, Vince Cable, has admitted as much.
Indirectly, Britain and America have contributed to the rise of Isis, by failing to act against mass-murderer Assad and by selling him arms and equipment, and now, in selling arms to States which have supported Isis in their rise to power.
On the eve of the Arab Spring protests, David Cameron hosted a massive Arms fair in order to sell arms to the very despots who were being protested against.
In Libya, Britain actively supported the rebels who were fighting Qaddafi - whose forces were using arms sold to them by Britain.
Britain and America have helped arm and have given support to some of the most despotic States in the world, and are continuing to do so - they have now added Isis to that list.
Should Isis ever achieve its aims, there is little doubt that, should the present policies continue, they will become 'valued customers' - business has no principles as to who it sells to.
What are you doing Keith - why are you supporting a policy that has armed terrorist States by denying what is done and dusted - you have the facts of what has been done in the recent past and what is happening now.
You are a right-wing fanatic whose only interest is in supporting extremist right-wing policies and big business.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:08 AM

"SAUDI ARABIA, TURKEY AND QATAR, ALL OF WHOM ARE SUPPLYING ARMS TO ISIS"

No they are not.
You are wrong again.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:19 AM

"You are wrong again."
You have been given the information of their having done so
It has always been Britain's policy to sell arms to whoever will buy them - that nice Mr Cable said so himself
You have been given that information as well
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:22 AM

Let me remind you of something.

When those countries were supplying arms to the Syrian rebels including ISIS, pacifist Jim was demanding that Britain and the West should supply them arms too!

Deny that Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:45 AM

"When those countries were supplying arms to the Syrian rebels including ISIS, pacifist Jim was demanding that Britain and the West should supply them arms too!"
Let me remind you that this was when those rebels were fighting to overthrow Assad and weer not dominated by extremists - and nobody claimed that the were.
Britain, America and the rest of the western world actually debated whether to fill the gap that had been left by the U.N. veto - had there been oil involved, the U.S. would not have hesitated to fill that gap.
Let me also remind you that your proposed solution was to supply Assad with the wherewithal to quash the protests in the form of armoured cars tear gas, high pressure water cannons and other riot control equipment (this was at the time the citizens of Homs were being used as target practice by snipers possibly having been trained using ammunition sold to Assad by Britain - you thought they were "a handful of sniper rifles" and approved that too)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 06:35 AM

Another reminder
Isis cut its teeth in Syria on the basis of being able to step in and grow because of the refusal of the U.N. and the west to become involved.
Had they done so, there would be no basis for Isis to become involved.
Arms and manpower support for the Syrian opposition could and should have been backed up by economic sanctions and confiscation of the considerable Assad property and possessions in Britain - defectors from Assad's regime were urging that this should happen as he valued his contacts and his long-lasting relationship with Britain.
Not only did none of this happen, but at the height of the Homs massacre a British minister was publicly quoted as saying that the Syrian conflict should in no way effect future trade, whoever emerged as winner.
Isis is a Frankenstein creation of the West's own making.
Ji Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Teddyboy
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 08:08 AM

Contributors bickering among themselves doesn't alter the fact that the savages who are collectively known as Islamic State would have, eventually, gained arms from somewhere (anywhere?) with which to wage their 'Holy War'.

There is no possibility of negotiating with radical Islam, as it's adherents do not interpret the words of either the Quran or the somewhat doubtful record of the habits of their 'prophet', they are told exactly what Allah requires of them. Their fear of the various terrifying punishments for disobedience, or their pitiful, deluded, expectations of sexual gratification (that, of course, being the absolute peak of possible human experience!) from their promised virgins soon persuades naive and fearful, testosterone laden, young kids to pledge their lives for the cause of Allah! To them, anyone not Muslim is as dirt under their feet, and therefore their views, beliefs or opinions are completely irrelevant as they are obviously not subjugated to the words of Allah's Quran as recited by Muhammad.   

The fact that 'converts' (however converted) repeat the words of the shahada is good enough; actual belief is not really worried about as long as the new recruits bow down to the sacred stone in Macca 5 times a day and fill their conversation with insh'Allahs and al ham dulillahs, they're fine!

If they aren't stopped soon; it'll be us that will be repeating those words before long! Better get some practice in, eh? All together now, repeat after me "I bear witness that there is no god except Allah...."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 08:20 AM

"Contributors bickering among themselves doesn't alter the fact that the savages who are collectively known as Islamic State would have, eventually, gained arms from somewhere"
Yes - of course the could, but when the two largest arms traders on the planet are happily trading arms with Terrorist states and feudal despots - especially ones who support groups like Isis, doesn't the job of arming themselves become that much easier?
As for your comments on Islam - religions are religions anywhere yo go and will do whatever they are allowed to get away in pursuit of their own particular product - the only thing that differentiate one from the other is opportunity.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 08:23 AM

Missed a bit:
""I bear witness that there is no god except Allah....""
Holy Bible New Living Translation
"I am the LORD; there is no other God. I have equipped you for battle, though you don't even know me,"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Teddyboy
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 01:04 PM

"Missed a bit:"

Don't know about you Mr Carroll, but I haven't heard of any Christian community which is currently forcing anyone else to convert at the point of a sword. Neither is there one which would actually kill another Christian if they ever denied their faith.

Furthermore; It's no use quoting the Old Testament at Christians, we live and die by the "New Covenant" which is Jesus (the Christ), that's why we are called "Christians", or didn't you realise that?

Whilst I wouldn't and couldn't argue with the point you make in the immediately previous answer, it's all a bit academic, isn't it? Which one of us hasn't made a bad commercial decision and lived to regret it? As we cannot change history, shouldn't we now be looking at how to protect these poor innocents and finding a way out of this dreadful situation, rather than trying to lay blame for something which is/was inevitable anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:11 PM

"Don't know about you Mr Carroll, but I haven't heard of any Christian community which is currently forcing anyone else to convert at the point of a sword"
Didn't say they have, just that they would if they could just as they have in the past
I quoted the Christian doctrine in response to your Muslim one.
All churces, no mater which particular brand of superstition they drom in their shopping trolley, are a threat to the lives of believers and non-believers alike if they are given enough power.
Scriptures such as that you quoted are meaningless without that power.
In the past the Christian church hasn't bothered with the sword - they tortured them util they recanted then burned them alive before they could change their minds.
I spent a large part of my life associating with ordinary, down-to-earth Muslims - I have said a hundred times that I found virtually every one of them far easier to discuss my non-belief with that I did committed non-Christians.
No - Christians no longer burn non-believers, but you might have read about the long-term rape of children here in Holy Ireland, carried out by clergymen and covered up (and even facilitated) by the church - that particular brand of persecution lasted for many decades, possibly centuries.
Or the Magdalene Laundries for "fallen women" which were slave driving sweat shops for girls unlucky enough to fall pregnant - the last of these closed in 1996.
Or the Homes for sinners, with their appalling punishments and mass graves.
Or the Church inspired pregnancy laws existing in Ireland which killed one woman the year before last - we are in the throes of another case at the present time where a 16 year old rape victim in danger of suicide was refused a pregnancy termination (despite theoretically being entitled to one), went on hunger strike, was force-hydrated to keep her and the foetus alive, then finally had to endure a Caesarian operation - not bad for a sixteen-year old.
The laws that should have given her access to an early termination were introduced recently following the death of a young mother who died having been refused a life saving operation "Because Ireland is a Catholic country".
None of this in any way adds up to beheadings - but it just goes to show what a church is capable of when it puts its mind to it.
Please don't tell me about religions which persecute - most do when they are allowed to.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Teddyboy
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 07:21 PM

My, my Mr Carroll, you really don't like the Catholics, do you? Well, we're in the same boat there, I'm only glad that we had the Reformation, since when real Christianity has come on by leaps and bounds. I cannot answer any of your comments above, as they don't actually refer to anything remotely Christian, as far as I can see. But I will get back to you as soon as I'm able. It's now after midnight, and I'm off to bed. Good night and God bless! By the way, I've lived in a small Egyptian town for most of the last 7 years, where most of my friends are Muslim.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 03:16 AM

"My, my Mr Carroll, you really don't like the Catholics, do you? "
I have no religion, but I have no objection to anybody's else's beliefs, just how those beliefs are misused by those who choose to do so.
"Christianity has come on by leaps and bounds"
Your argument appears to be based on them and us - my God is better than yours - which is what makes the Caliphate the menace that it is.
The sooner that all religions are forcibly removed from having any say in anything other spiritual guidance - and that under the strictest scrutiny, the batter, as far as I'm concerned.
They can all go to their own chosen Hells in their own particular handcarts as far as I'm concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 03:32 AM

Indeed, Jim; I agree entirely with that postulation. But would add that, altho they are all mischievous in their various ways, this does not lead to the conclusion sometimes asserted that they are all equally so, so one shouldn't try to 'demonise' any above the others. I say again that IMO Islam is one with the greatest potential for harm in its teachings, and that to say that we should not take measures to protect ourselves from some of the potential of its effects is equivalent to asserting that, as all illnesses are undesirable, it doesn't really matter if you get cancer or a cold. I have been accused of "twisting someone's words" in making this comparison, but I remain blowed if I can see how.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 03:47 AM

We seem to have a new god botherer in our midst.

Welcome to the fray teddyboy, although this thread is about the dangers of taking superstition seriously, not advocating it.

Your comment about Christians not blah blah. The Christian terror cult in China that murdered a person in McDonalds for not converting there and then. Their trial is on the news should you wish to learn more. Also, the role of American Christian groups in funding persecution of gay people in Uganda is coming ever more to light.

It isn't Islam this, Old Testament that, Wicca the other. It's the unhelpful excuse that religion gives to bigotry, division and ultimately atrocity.

Christianity is just a different arm. The only thing that does seem to distinguish it is that many people calling themselves Christian are too sophisticated and educated to actually believe in the nonsense bit.

That's why they no longer burn me and other normal people at the stake for heresy. Christianity in The UK is more of a tradition. Although of course you get the odd gullible disturbed fool for whom membership has become less than helpful for their mental state.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 04:37 AM

"Church of Almighty God, a cult that believes that Jesus has risen in the shape of a 40-something Chinese woman named Yang Xiangbin, also sometimes known as Lightning Deng."

Christians still await the second coming, so these a hardly Christians.

last time we discussed Uganda (!) you failed to find any evidence for your claim.
What do you have now?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 06:50 AM

" Jim; I agree entirely with that postulation"
My earlier post seems to have gone walkabout.
"I say again that IMO Islam is one with the greatest potential for harm in its teachings"
I don't know enough about Islamic teaching to dispute this one way or another and I very much doubt if you do, but you are welcome to enlighten m on this.
I very much doubt if it can match something like this in any of it's teachings.
EVIL BIBLE QUOTES
And there's plenty more where they come from.
The use and misuse of Christianity for persecution and gain has as long a track-record as any other religion from the three centuries of the Inquisition and the Crusades through 20th century Ireland, taking in the blessing of bombs and Hitler's Pope Pius XII who nodded thousands of Italian Jews through to the German death camps.
Closest to home and most recent is the two decade long bloody warfare in Britain over a country which was deliberately partitioned on religious grounds for political and economic reasons.
We are at present trying to get our heads around a massacre of over 2000 people over a territorial dispute prompted by an aggressively expansionist policy heavily influenced by claims of a 'Chosen People' demanding their God-given 'Promised Land'.
Put any religion at the disposal of politicians or financeers, or give any church any influence beyond spiritual guidance and you have a toxic mix.
I know for a fact that whatever their background, given the opportunity and the motivation, Muslims are as capable of accepting change as those of any other faith - one of the most recurring pieces of advice given to those moving to countries of other faiths is that the laws and customs of their host nations be obeyed and respected.
It is no coincidence that the problem Muslim areas are or recently have been run by feudal despots, often backed by the West out of self-interest.
The rise in power of Isis can be traced directly back to Syria, and the cynical failure of the West not to become involved until it was too late - little to do with religion or belief.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 07:12 AM

"I don't know enough about Islamic teaching to dispute this one way or another and I very much doubt if you do"

.,,.

I make no claim to do so, Jim. I merely rely on what the perpetrators of the sort of acts I refer to [you know perfectly well the sort of thing mean here] themselves claim as their motivations. Can you name an incident of recent occurrence in which an innocent pedestrian was hacked to pieces with machetes by a pair of Christians who then told a passer-by that they were acting in accordance with the injunctions contained in Malachi 3 or Zepheniah 13 or Nahum 2? -- or any even remotely comparable incident? I think not.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 08:29 AM

" themselves claim as their motivations."
God on our side you mean - haven't we heard that before somewhere?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 09:04 AM

Yawn.. Some say good old Keith. Some say fuck him.

Which claim was that then? You don't have to answer with more bollocks if you dont wish. By saying what you did, you possibly managed to carry out your aim of lying to slur people.

I don't blame you. You have no argument so it is all you can do.

I like you saying a Christian cult aren't Christians. pete reckons you aren't...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 10:32 AM

The claim about Christians being behind Ugandan failed legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 10:36 AM

How can it be a Christian cult if it believes in a different Christ?

Am I of the Jewish faith because they believe a Messiah is coming?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 10:46 AM

Not just "God on their side", Jim; but actual quoted Koranic injunctions for such actions. You are being disingenuous, and don't pretend not to know it...

eg -- chapter 9, verse 5 -- "fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem".

I am well aware that Muslims sometimes claim that these are being taken out of context, & can only be held to apply in conditions of war. But the killers of Mr Rigby claimed explicitly that such injunctions applied in their case because they were engaged in an act of war in killing him; which was notoriously the defence they adduced at their trial.

So summarising such explicit justifications as simply an instance of "God on our side" really won't do, Jim. &, again I say, don't pretend you don't realise it.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 11:27 AM

"Not just "God on their side", Jim; but actual quoted Koranic injunctions for such actions. You are being disingenuous, and don't pretend not to know it..."
I really am not and you are deliberately avoiding every single point being made to justify your now admitted bigotry.
For every quote from the Qran you could find its equivalent from the bible
Wanna try a pissing competition?
Jim Carroll

"fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem".

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst."   (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)"

"So Joshua conquered the entire region – the hill country, the Negev, the land of Goshen, the western foothills, the Jordan Valley, and the mountains and lowlands of Israel. The Israelite territory now extended all the way from Mount Halak, which leads up to Seir, to Baal-gad at the foot of Mount Hermon in the valley of Lebanon. Joshua killed all the kings of those territories, waging war for a long time to accomplish this. No one in this region made peace with the Israelites except the Hivites of Gibeon. All the others were defeated. For the LORD hardened their hearts and caused them to fight the Israelites instead of asking for peace. So they were completely and mercilessly destroyed, as the LORD had commanded Moses.   (Joshua 11:16-20 NLT)"

"The Canaanite king of Arad, who lived in the Negev, heard that the Israelites were approaching on the road to Atharim. So he attacked the Israelites and took some of them as prisoners. Then the people of Israel made this vow to the LORD: "If you will help us conquer these people, we will completely destroy all their towns." The LORD heard their request and gave them victory over the Canaanites. The Israelites completely destroyed them and their towns, and the place has been called Hormah ever since.   (Numbers 21:1-3 NLT)"

"Weep and moan, you evil shepherds! Roll in the dust, you leaders of the flock! The time of your slaughter has arrived; you will fall and shatter like fragile pottery. You will find no place to hide; there will be no way to escape. Listen to the frantic cries of the shepherds, to the leaders of the flock shouting in despair, for the LORD is spoiling their pastures. Peaceful meadows will be turned into a wasteland by the LORD's fierce anger. He has left his den like a lion seeking its prey, and their land will be made desolate by the sword of the enemy and the LORD's fierce anger.   (Jeremiah 25:34-38 NLT)"

"In that day those the LORD has slaughtered will fill the earth from one end to the other. No one will mourn for them or gather up their bodies to bury them. They will be scattered like dung on the ground.   (Jeremiah 25:33 NLT)"

"Then the LORD, the God of Israel, said to me, "Take from my hand this cup filled to the brim with my anger, and make all the nations to whom I send you drink from it. When they drink from it, they will stagger, crazed by the warfare I will send against them."   (Jeremiah 25:15-16 NLT)"

"And now the LORD Almighty says: Because you have not listened to me, I will gather together all the armies of the north under King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, whom I have appointed as my deputy. I will bring them all against this land and its people and against the other nations near you. I will completely destroy you and make you an object of horror and contempt and a ruin forever. I will take away your happy singing and laughter. The joyful voices of bridegrooms and brides will no longer be heard. Your businesses will fail, and all your homes will stand silent and dark. This entire land will become a desolate wasteland.   (Jeremiah 25:8-11 NLT)"

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 01:17 PM

I didn't say you couldn't 'find an equivalent quote", DISINGENUOUS filthy stinking Carroll. I said you couldn't find an example of a non-Muslim murderer of an innocent passer-by on a public highway using any such quote to justify his action, both to a brave passer-by who had intervened and later as a defence in court.

You are not merely being disingenuous, you are being blatantly dishonest. I am bloody disgusted with you; & you should be bloody ashamed of yourself. But of course you are not. Much too disingenuous a bleeding liar for any such emotion. Be off with you, stinking Carroll, you nasty piece of filth. I have had enough of debasing myself even to be appearing to argue with the graceless likes of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 01:47 PM

" Be off with you, stinking Carroll"
Back to the schoolyard whenever you are at a loss for a response.
" I said you couldn't find an example of a non-Muslim murderer of an innocent passer-by on a public highway using any such quote to justify his action"
How about the thousand plus passers by who have had their highways, homes and schools taken away as well as being blasted to smithereens by Israeli artillery in the name of 'A promised Land'
Don't suppose that fits your bigoted bill though, does it?
Wish I could say I am disappointed - long past that I'm afraid
Off to report you to teacher!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 05:39 PM

I think that if you believe that *the* messiah promised by the Old Testament god to his chosen people is coming to save you, individually, as part of those chosen people, then yes, you are of the jewish faith.

If you believe some other random messiah is coming, then no, you're not.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 06:09 PM

But "the" messiah is sent by God, so he can't be random. A random messiah would be a false messiah. If you believe in a messiah.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 09:00 PM

Sounds more like mishigas than messiah.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 03:23 AM

Have you noticed that those saying all Muslims are potential Islamists are saying the Chinese Christians are different Christians to them?

You couldn't make it up.





Though Keith does try, to be fair.

Then he says the American Christian cults bankrolling homophobic Ugandan politicians don't exist, despite a couple of them being proud enough to be interviewed in a documentary...

Is there any point in discussing IS whilst such bullshit and bollocks is being spread over the thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 04:16 AM

Have you noticed that those saying all Muslims are potential Islamists

I have not notices anyone saying that.
Made up.

Chinese Christians are different Christians to them?

They are not Christians.

Then he says the American Christian cults bankrolling homophobic Ugandan politicians don't exist,

No I did not.
Made up.
I just asked if there was any evidence for it.
Is there?
Last time you had none.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 04:19 AM

"Chinese Christians."
There are many, and life is very difficult for them.
That sect you posted about are not Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 06:25 AM

"That sect you posted about are not Christians"
This is typival of your argument Keith - if their behaviour is inconvenient to your argument they are not Christians.
""I have seen some of their teaching material," said Peng Baoshun. "It begins just like normal Christianity, with no difference at all. But when you get more involved, they introduce the theory of (Yang) being 'Almighty God.'" Peng said the teachings were straightforward. "They just want you to repeat over and over that you obey 'God,' listen to her, and not fight back. And there are threats for those who think of quitting."
Jim Carroll
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorismEXTREMIST CHRISTIANS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 07:51 AM

Whoops
CHRISTIAN TERRORISM
Jim Carroll